Is Romans 8 a license to be holy?

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dragonfly

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williemac said,

If we could repent specifically of sin, no sacrifice would have been needed.


This is not biblical thinking or teaching. I know from our discussion in the Tozer thread about the cross, that you have constructed your own private doctrine around repentance, even although there is massive evidence in scripture for the connection between repentance and repentance from sin.

But, I can see that the appeal of claiming positional righteousness. You seem to imply that the Advocate - without being personally approached - will put each case to the Father on your behalf. This helpfully by-passes your resistance to repenting from sins.

However, I would draw to your attention, seriously, that Paul did not 'see' the 'positional righteousness' of the fornicator in 1 Corinthians 5, and I doubt the fornicator in 1 Corinthians 5 thought of himself as positionally 'righteous', after he'd been asked to leave until he'd repented. What's more, Paul's description of him doesn't base itself on his 'positional righteousness' either. Indeed, was he still positionally righteous?

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly
manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

2 Corinthians 12:21 [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned
already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


It should be obvious that Paul does not believe their future sins are already forgiven nor that repentance was a thing of their past.
 

williemac

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Heb_6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

This thread is about Romans 8. The bad doctrines presented as a divergent tangent can be dealt with in other threads. Suffice for the thread is the errors thereof pertaining to it.
Go ahead and avoid the principles I have shared from scripture. Your doctrine or understanding thereof, turns eternal life into nothing more or less than a reward for good behavior. The dead works of Hebrews is the dead works of the law. Sin is not a work. It is an act of disobedience to law. But by the works of the law is no man justified. The letter was an epistle to the Hebrews, who were previously under the law, which could not save them. Those works of law for justification need repenting from and replaced by faith for justification, Thus the repentance from 'dead' works into faith, as their foundation. I repeat, sin is not a work.

I do not nor have never opposed the exhortation to live a righteous life in Christ. But the dynamic of salvation, and the dynamic of our life in Christ, is that it does not end with everlasting life,,,get this....It starts with everlasting life. We are not working to place ourselves in any higher position or state than we already have been given freely by grace through faith. The work that was started in us will be copmpleted when our flesh and blood is replaced with a new body that is immortal and incorruptable. In the meantime, we currently have everlasting life in our new man, which is our new spirit, born of God. righteous and holy (Eph.4:24).

I repeat, everlasting life is not a reward for our good behavior, it is a gift, freely given insantly through faith as a result of the righteous act of ONE MAN (Rom.5:15-18...read it for yourself before you reply against it). BTW, the 8th chapter of Romans begins with(there is now) THERFORE. If it is not understood in its context, then one can certainly misunderstand it. It is valid to go to the previous chapters. The letter was not written in chapters. It was a continuos message.Besides, I originally responded to a specific post of yours, not to the thread itself.
 

Episkopos

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Go ahead and avoid the principles I have shared from scripture. Your doctrine or understanding thereof, turns eternal life into nothing more or less than a reward for good behavior. The dead works of Hebrews is the dead works of the law. Sin is not a work. It is an act of disobedience to law. But by the works of the law is no man justified. The letter was an epistle to the Hebrews, who were previously under the law, which could not save them. Those works of law for justification need repenting from and replaced by faith for justification, Thus the repentance from 'dead' works into faith, as their foundation. I repeat, sin is not a work.

I do not nor have never opposed the exhortation to live a righteous life in Christ. But the dynamic of salvation, and the dynamic of our life in Christ, is that it does not end with everlasting life,,,get this....It starts with everlasting life. We are not working to place ourselves in any higher position or state than we already have been given freely by grace through faith. The work that was started in us will be copmpleted when our flesh and blood is replaced with a new body that is immortal and incorruptable. In the meantime, we currently have everlasting life in our new man, which is our new spirit, born of God. righteous and holy (Eph.4:24).

I repeat, everlasting life is not a reward for our good behavior, it is a gift, freely given insantly through faith as a result of the righteous act of ONE MAN (Rom.5:15-18...read it for yourself before you reply against it). BTW, the 8th chapter of Romans begins with(there is now) THERFORE. If it is not understood in its context, then one can certainly misunderstand it. It is valid to go to the previous chapters. The letter was not written in chapters. It was a continuos message.Besides, I originally responded to a specific post of yours, not to the thread itself.
And I have stated that no one here is advocating circumcision or any other work of the law. Back to the subject at hand...
 

Axehead

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Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons (true sons); for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons (false sons).


True Sons receive discipline, rebuke and correction.

False Sons DO NOT!

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
 

williemac

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And I have stated that no one here is advocating circumcision or any other work of the law. Back to the subject at hand...
I don't think you consciously advocate works of law, but what you and a few others are advocating is that salvation comes from what Christ does through us rather than or at least as along with what He did for us. No?

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons (true sons); for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons (false sons).


True Sons receive discipline, rebuke and correction.

False Sons DO NOT!

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb.10:39..." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul". How does one turn away to perdition? Through unbelief. The Lord will not chasten that person. It is only believers who are chastened. We are all sons of God by faith. Should we walk as sons? By all means. By what motive? His love and assurance. The motive I sense from some here is the threat of eternal rejection. Are we to serve him out of a fear for our own security, or out of love and assurance? I choose the latter. This is the God Whom I know and love. As I shared. Our walk with Him and in Him begins with the gift of everlasting life. It does not finish with everlasting life as some kind of reward for good behavior.

What I see from some here is the concept that God gives us the Holy Spirit so that we can be empowered to live in righteousness and holiness, so that we can be rewarded with life or keep the life that had been given. No matter how you slice it, that scenario is a salvation by works.
 

Axehead

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WillieMac,


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: (what, it's not a SURE THING?) for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: ?

What in the world does Peter mean? I don't have to do anything to make my calling an election SURE. I believe in the GOSPEL of GRACE. No works AT ALL involved. None, nada, zip, zilch!!! Peter must be having a bad day.

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Well, maybe I should listen to Peter. After-all the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Maybe I should read what came before 2 Pet 1:10 to see what he is referring to that I SHOULD DO to make my calling and election sure. I certainly want to MAKE IT SURE. But, wait a minute, the GOSPEL of GRACE crowd say that I do not have to do anything. Could it be that GRACE means FREE + No Responsibility or does GRACE imply RESPONSIBILITY? Wait a minute, stop thinking about work, I don't want to work. I just want to believe and stay home and watch football games.

Ok, this is pretty silly, isn't it? Even my 13 year old knows this is silly.

So what things is Peter talking about that we should do so we do NOT FAIL? What is Peter talking about?


Does your Bible say that you are to live no longer for the lusts of the flesh?


Does your Bible say that you are to resist the lusts of the flesh so as to live for the will of God?


Read Matthew 7:21. -- Does your Bible clearly warn you that not everyone who is saying "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven?


Does it say only those who do the will of God enter heaven?


Did 1 Peter 4:2 say you no longer live for the lusts of men but for the will of God?


God has not changed His mind, has He? No. God has not changed His mind about rebellion; nor has Satan stopped trying to pervert the Word of God by telling people "You surely shall not die."


Colossians 2:4 -- Does your Bible say you could be deluded with a persuasive argument?

Colossians 2:6 -- Are you to walk in Christ Jesus? Compare this verse with Ephesians 4:17-20 and 1 John 2:4-6.



Colossians 2:8 -- Does your Bible warn you about being taken captive? Do people get taken captive through the traditions of men?
Colossians 2:11 -- Does your Bible say that those in Christ have a circumcision not by mans hands but by "the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh."

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 -- Does your Bible say the will of God is your sanctification (walk in holiness)?

Does it say that the will of God is that you possess your own vessel (body of flesh) in sanctification (holiness), not in lustful passion (yielding to the lust rebellion of the flesh)?

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 -- Are you called for impurity in your life or to sanctification? Does your Bible clearly say to you that if you reject this you reject God? Hath God really said!
Now, let me ask you, if you resist the will and the Word of God, is this not the same rebellion to God as the first Adam? And what happened to the first Adam? Has God changed?

Hebrews 12:14 -- Does your Bible clearly teach that without sanctification you will not see the Lord?

Like the Bereans, let's search the scriptures, Williemac. Everything we need to know about what God expects of us, is there.

We don't have to fear anything about reading ALL the SCRIPTURES, but we do have to fear if we ignore many of them and create our own comfortable, doctrine where we have the option of following the Word or not. After-all, I walked the aisle and confessed my sins and according to the formula in Romans 10:9-10, I am saved. But, I have news for you and everyone else. God does not do formulas or "name it, claim it". God is a God of relationship and formulas and relationship do not mix.

By the way, I can produce many more "conditional" scriptures for you from the the New Testament. Did you know that the NT is full of conditional scriptures?

Axehead
 

dragonfly

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What I see from some here is the concept that God gives us the Holy Spirit so that we can be empowered to live in righteousness and holiness, so that we can be rewarded with life or keep the life that had been given. No matter how you slice it, that scenario is a salvation by works.

As I read the following verses, I can see exactly your point - that we are not saved by our good works.

The problem is - if there is a problem - that unless we see that the good works of the Father's will for our lives are required as a testimony to what God has done in our hearts through faith, we may take away alternative ideas, such as that 'all works' are an attempt to 'keep the law' (of Moses) and therefore at best optional - despite that Paul clarifies this extensively - or, that no evidence of a changed heart as regards sin is required (by God) - despite that Paul, Peter and John between them clarify this extensively - or, that God gives us the Holy Spirit to keep for ourselves, for our own enjoyment and sharing of His glory with us - despite that this is clarified extensively by the Old Testament, Jesus and the apostles. Probably there are various blends of these major misapprehensions, but all of them can be clarified by understanding we are to walk as Christ walked.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

If we continue in the power of Titus 3:3, are we saved? (Rhetorical!)

The apostle John states: Whosoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6


The need for 'good works' is - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45
 

Episkopos

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I don't think you consciously advocate works of law, but what you and a few others are advocating is that salvation comes from what Christ does through us rather than or at least as along with what He did for us. No?

Narrow is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life... The first (the awakening) we experience because of what God does FOR us, and the walk is what God does through us.
 

williemac

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WillieMac,


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: (what, it's not a SURE THING?) for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: ?

What in the world does Peter mean? I don't have to do anything to make my calling an election SURE. I believe in the GOSPEL of GRACE. No works AT ALL involved. None, nada, zip, zilch!!! Peter must be having a bad day.

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Well, maybe I should listen to Peter. After-all the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Maybe I should read what came before 2 Pet 1:10 to see what he is referring to that I SHOULD DO to make my calling and election sure. I certainly want to MAKE IT SURE. But, wait a minute, the GOSPEL of GRACE crowd say that I do not have to do anything. Could it be that GRACE means FREE + No Responsibility or does GRACE imply RESPONSIBILITY? Wait a minute, stop thinking about work, I don't want to work. I just want to believe and stay home and watch football games.

Ok, this is pretty silly, isn't it? Even my 13 year old knows this is silly.

So what things is Peter talking about that we should do so we do NOT FAIL? What is Peter talking about?


Does your Bible say that you are to live no longer for the lusts of the flesh?

Does your Bible say that you are to resist the lusts of the flesh so as to live for the will of God?

Read Matthew 7:21. -- Does your Bible clearly warn you that not everyone who is saying "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven?

Does it say only those who do the will of God enter heaven?

Did 1 Peter 4:2 say you no longer live for the lusts of men but for the will of God?

God has not changed His mind, has He? No. God has not changed His mind about rebellion; nor has Satan stopped trying to pervert the Word of God by telling people "You surely shall not die."

Colossians 2:4 -- Does your Bible say you could be deluded with a persuasive argument?
Colossians 2:6 -- Are you to walk in Christ Jesus? Compare this verse with Ephesians 4:17-20 and 1 John 2:4-6.


Colossians 2:8 -- Does your Bible warn you about being taken captive? Do people get taken captive through the traditions of men?
Colossians 2:11 -- Does your Bible say that those in Christ have a circumcision not by mans hands but by "the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh."

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 -- Does your Bible say the will of God is your sanctification (walk in holiness)?

Does it say that the will of God is that you possess your own vessel (body of flesh) in sanctification (holiness), not in lustful passion (yielding to the lust rebellion of the flesh)?

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 -- Are you called for impurity in your life or to sanctification? Does your Bible clearly say to you that if you reject this you reject God? Hath God really said!
Now, let me ask you, if you resist the will and the Word of God, is this not the same rebellion to God as the first Adam? And what happened to the first Adam? Has God changed?

Hebrews 12:14 -- Does your Bible clearly teach that without sanctification you will not see the Lord?

Like the Bereans, let's search the scriptures, Williemac. Everything we need to know about what God expects of us, is there.

We don't have to fear anything about reading ALL the SCRIPTURES, but we do have to fear if we ignore many of them and create our own comfortable, doctrine where we have the option of following the Word or not. After-all, I walked the aisle and confessed my sins and according to the formula in Romans 10:9-10, I am saved. But, I have news for you and everyone else. God does not do formulas or "name it, claim it". God is a God of relationship and formulas and relationship do not mix.

By the way, I can produce many more "conditional" scriptures for you from the the New Testament. Did you know that the NT is full of conditional scriptures?

Axehead
Obviously you have either forgotten or not read all that has been talked about up to this point, or you admit that we are saved by works. I can address these one by one, but due to lack of time I will remind you of the parable of the talents.

None of these examples demonstrate a perfection that is required in these things. Under the law, failure on anyone point will make one guilty of the whole law. Under grace is this the same? Our holiness is already a part of us, in our new man...or should I say HIS holiness. His righteousness is already in us, in our new man. So how much fruit is enough? How little fruit will condemn us?

At what point is a person sure that he has done enough of the above to make it? Is our assurance based on our own effort? You tell me.

Concerning these quotes from you, is this a black and white issue, saved or not saved? Or is this about an abundant entrance vs. one that may be so as through fire? I am not advocating the latter. I just want to point out that this is not a "paper covers rock" type game we are playing with the bible. Does scripture contradict scripture? Or we going to play the " I am of Paul, I am of Peter" card with each other?
 

Axehead

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Obviously you have either forgotten or not read all that has been talked about up to this point, or you admit that we are saved by works. I can address these one by one, but due to lack of time I will remind you of the parable of the talents.

None of these examples demonstrate a perfection that is required in these things. Under the law, failure on anyone point will make one guilty of the whole law. Under grace is this the same? Our holiness is already a part of us, in our new man...or should I say HIS holiness. His righteousness is already in us, in our new man. So how much fruit is enough? How little fruit will condemn us?

At what point is a person sure that he has done enough of the above to make it? Is our assurance based on our own effort? You tell me.

Concerning these quotes from you, is this a black and white issue, saved or not saved? Or is this about an abundant entrance vs. one that may be so as through fire? I am not advocating the latter. I just want to point out that this is not a "paper covers rock" type game we are playing with the bible. Does scripture contradict scripture? Or we going to play the " I am of Paul, I am of Peter" card with each other?

What you call "works" and "law", God calls relationship, faithfulness, holiness, and righteousness and fruit. We know what "works" and "law" is Williemac and we know that you cannot work for salvation or perform good works to be saved. However, there is a "work of the Holy Spirit" within man that does have a manifestation if we are in right relationship with the Lord. If we are not in right relationship with the Lord, then it does not matter what WORDS we uttered years ago, does it?

The false gospel we are exposing (and you are probably not of this crowd) is the one that says "repeat after me and you will be saved, and that is all there is to it". And then they live their lives like the "children of disobedience". Is that really all there is to it? That is not the true gospel of Grace, is it?

I will just list the same scripture that dragonfly, listed. (The Holy Spirit is not contradicting Himself through Titus).

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Williemac, it's not about "doing enough", but rather walking in relationship with the Lord. God has given us His Word and His Spirit so we can know if we are walking in relationship with Him and also what He will judge by to see if we are walking in relationship with Him. God is not beholden to us if we don't walk in relationship with Him yet remind Him that we believe in Him and had some "event" in our past life. Salvation is not a commodity that we own, but rather a PERSON that we RELATE TO.

Axehead
 

whitestone

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To every covenant, both parties are responsible to live up to their end of the agreement.

Jesus Lives up to His.

Do we live up to ours?

If we still sin, that is our answer.

If we see our life has changed to Jesus Living in us, loving righteousness and hating sin, happy are we in deliverance from sin and now living in righteousness joy and peace in His Holy Spirit, the Kingdom of God.
(Rom 14:17)

For the kingdom of God is... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.




(Rom 6:22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

dragonfly

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Hi whitestone,

To every covenant, both parties are responsible to live up to their end of the agreement.

'If we see our life has changed to Jesus Living in us, loving righteousness and hating sin, happy are we in deliverance from sin and now living in righteousness joy and peace in His Holy Spirit, the Kingdom of God', and, 'but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus, which I acknowledge are true, but my understanding (may be incorrect....) is that a covenant is where one party promises or pledges to give all of something to the other. In marriage, both parties promise to give all of themselves to the other, and this is more like how we receive salvation; we can do nothing to save ourselves except receive all of what God has done through Jesus Christ. Our response to the offer of His love, is to receive and allow it to change us radically, that we may give all of ourselves to Him in thankfulness and worship.

The covenant God made with Abraham, when the lamp passed between the two halves of Abraham's sacrifice, indicated that God intended to keep His part in doing what Abraham would find impossible. In fact, Hebrews 9:15 indicates that Jesus Christ was God's offering in respect of the covenant with Abraham. It was understood in those days that a covenant was not complete unless both parties had brought a sacrifice to affirm it. (I didn't learn this till relatively recently, but it helps me to understand that the Hebrews/Israelites knew this; they understood the obligation to God which their father Abraham had accepted, and yet when it came to receiving the promise to Abraham in their generation, the hearts of many were focused elsewhere.)

In the covenant between the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ gave Himself on our behalf that we might receive fellowship with His Father. In their case, self-sacrifice is the picture which we as Christians must take to heart. John 10:17, 18.

These days, there seems to be a gospel which neglects to warn people that the wages of sin is death, and that the offer of salvation is not merely about forgiveness of sins, but of the power to live free from sin, conquering the sin in our own lives that we may be vessels fit for the Master's use in bringing others into this glorious life. By glorious, I mean, being changed from glory to glory - that process which the KJV translators decided to call 'sanctificaiton', rather than 'glorification', which seems to have caused generations of Christians to get side-tracked - even though the association between Christ's death and his glorification is clear in the NT, and would have clarified the relationship between our salvatoin and Romans 6:6.
 

Episkopos

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Hi whitestone,



'If we see our life has changed to Jesus Living in us, loving righteousness and hating sin, happy are we in deliverance from sin and now living in righteousness joy and peace in His Holy Spirit, the Kingdom of God', and, 'but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus, which I acknowledge are true, but my understanding (may be incorrect....) is that a covenant is where one party promises or pledges to give all of something to the other. In marriage, both parties promise to give all of themselves to the other, and this is more like how we receive salvation; we can do nothing to save ourselves except receive all of what God has done through Jesus Christ. Our response to the offer of His love, is to receive and allow it to change us radically, that we may give all of ourselves to Him in thankfulness and worship.

The covenant God made with Abraham, when the lamp passed between the two halves of Abraham's sacrifice, indicated that God intended to keep His part in doing what Abraham would find impossible. In fact, Hebrews 9:15 indicates that Jesus Christ was God's offering in respect of the covenant with Abraham. It was understood in those days that a covenant was not complete unless both parties had brought a sacrifice to affirm it. (I didn't learn this till relatively recently, but it helps me to understand that the Hebrews/Israelites knew this; they understood the obligation to God which their father Abraham had accepted, and yet when it came to receiving the promise to Abraham in their generation, the hearts of many were focused elsewhere.)

In the covenant between the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ gave Himself on our behalf that we might receive fellowship with His Father. In their case, self-sacrifice is the picture which we as Christians must take to heart. John 10:17, 18.

These days, there seems to be a gospel which neglects to warn people that the wages of sin is death, and that the offer of salvation is not merely about forgiveness of sins, but of the power to live free from sin, conquering the sin in our own lives that we may be vessels fit for the Master's use in bringing others into this glorious life. By glorious, I mean, being changed from glory to glory - that process which the KJV translators decided to call 'sanctificaiton', rather than 'glorification', which seems to have caused generations of Christians to get side-tracked - even though the association between Christ's death and his glorification is clear in the NT, and would have clarified the relationship between our salvatoin and Romans 6:6.

How about this...We love Him because He first loved us...:)

Salvation always originates with God...but then He looks to see what our response will be. Will we run away and continue to do our own thing? Or will we have honour and give Him our lives to be lived for Him???

In some cultures when you save a man's life...he owes you that life until death. Apparently not in our modern culture.

Why aren't more people interested in WHY God seeks to save us. Many assume that God is so in love with us that we can go on our merry way having God wrapped around our little finger. It's like He;s put Himself under our thumb.

But what if God was looking for something in return....like fruit? What fruit? The same love and devotion He has in return!!!!
 

williemac

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What you call "works" and "law", God calls relationship, faithfulness, holiness, and righteousness and fruit. We know what "works" and "law" is Williemac and we know that you cannot work for salvation or perform good works to be saved. However, there is a "work of the Holy Spirit" within man that does have a manifestation if we are in right relationship with the Lord. If we are not in right relationship with the Lord, then it does not matter what WORDS we uttered years ago, does it?
We cannot go about invalidating the way that anyone has come into the body of Christ. Rom.10:9,10 actually does say salvation is exactly a matter of one's belief and confession. The fact is, right relationship comes as a result of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. He is asking for or requiring a response. In our experinece, a marriage proposal requires a "yes", and a wedding cerimony uses " I do". The issue is not about the quality of the relationship but rather whether there is one. It seems that yourself and others have been suggesting the quality establishes the determination as to whether there is in fact a relationship.
The false gospel we are exposing (and you are probably not of this crowd) is the one that says "repeat after me and you will be saved, and that is all there is to it". And then they live their lives like the "children of disobedience". Is that really all there is to it? That is not the true gospel of Grace, is it?
So you have an issue with the so-called sinners prayer do you? The problem I have with this is that when used in the proper context, there is nothing wrong with such a prayer. The sinner's prayer is not the problem. The message prior to it and the follow up after it is what counts.
I will just list the same scripture that dragonfly, listed. (The Holy Spirit is not contradicting Himself through Titus).

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Hey, there are plenty of people on this planet who do good works, who do not know the Lord nor believe on Him. I will share something about that at the end of my reply.
Williemac, it's not about "doing enough", but rather walking in relationship with the Lord. God has given us His Word and His Spirit so we can know if we are walking in relationship with Him and also what He will judge by to see if we are walking in relationship with Him. God is not beholden to us if we don't walk in relationship with Him yet remind Him that we believe in Him and had some "event" in our past life. Salvation is not a commodity that we own, but rather a PERSON that we RELATE TO.

Axehead
I would word that differently. "This is eternal life, that they may know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (paraphrased,John17:3). Nonetheless, salvation is a reality that comes with an assurance. That is God's business. There is nothing wroing with being assured. In fact it is mentally healthy.

But I want to say that there is another extreme opposite to those who live a completely sinful lifestyle that denies the whole point of our life in Him. This extreme reflects the original sin of Lucifer, who decided to become or be as God. The simple term for it is pride. It is the root of sin. There are three things that the world knows in their fallen state: the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1John:2:16). Jesus was tempted in all three areas. We have only been looking at the lust of the flesh on these threads. But the more sinister evil lies in the pride of life. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud.

Jesus died for sin. His sacrifice applies to the effect, but not necessarily the cause. It applies to the symptom, but not the root.The root is in the state of mind that refuses to acknowledge God's place and our place. We cannot do or accomplish those things which only God Himself can do and accomplish. We cannot produce life or acceptable righteousness. We can only bear the fruit of these.
One cannot come to God without humility. This is why I sometimes see red flags when those come along and emphasise a holy walk. The inuendos usually give a clue that some people are basing their assurance on their own effort.

Our resposibilty is to introduce people to Jesus, emphasising a relationship and teaching them the point of our salvation, teaching them to love the law and hate their sin, as Paul spoke of in Rom.7. But it is also to promote faith and humility, teaching them not to get puffed up by the life they are living in Him and for Him, but to always understand that they stand right with Him on the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus alone. Rom.7 also includes a humble admission of his weakness in spite of his mind's determination.

The type of christian that you are describing is one who may not actually be a true christian at all. The lukewarm church thought they had all that they needed. But Jesus told them they were missing something. In Rev.3:21, He gave them the answer. They were missing HIM. They were not cold, being believers. But they were not hot because they did not have the indwelling presence of the Lord for fellowship. If we take someone to Jesus, can we not trust Him to take over?

I really hope we can land on the same page on this. It may well be a matter of semantics more than a disagreement of the word.
 

JohnnyB

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Hebrews 12:14 strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.

1 Peter 1:15 But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living.

God's word tells us to pursue holiness, to be holy, but when we do.....we are accused of being like Lucifer. Do we take the Bible serious or not?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[sup] [/sup]The old has gone, the new is here!

1 John 4:17, "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world".

We can now be as He is because we have a NEW nature, the old has passed away, we practice righteousness, we become righteous, we practice Holiness, we become Holy because along with the NEW nature now God's grace has opened up the door and provided the tools and the way to be as He is in this world. Now, it is up to us what we do with what He has given us, do we reach out our hand also and take His or do we expect Him to do all the work? Please show us an example of God NOT expecting anything out of His people in all of the word? There is none.

Luke 12:48 ...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

We are being transformed into the image of Christ -
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

We are TOLD by God Himself, that we are to be transformed into His image, yet, when we pursue exactly what the Bible tells us to do, we are accused of being prideful and like Lucifer.
 
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Episkopos

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Hebrews 12:14 strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.

1 Peter 1:15 But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living.

God's word tells us to pursue holiness, to be holy, but when we do.....we are accused of being like Lucifer. Do we take the Bible serious or not?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[sup] [/sup]The old has gone, the new is here!

1 John 4:17, "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world".

We can now be as He is because we have a NEW nature, the old has passed away, we practice righteousness, we become righteous, we practice Holiness, we become Holy because along with the NEW nature now God's grace has opened up the door and provided the tools and the way to be as He is in this world. Now, it is up to us what we do with what He has given us, do we reach out our hand also and take His or do we expect Him to do all the work? Please show us an example of God NOT expecting anything out of His people in all of the word? There is none.

Luke 12:48 ...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

We are being transformed into the image of Christ -
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

We are TOLD by God Himself, that we are to be transformed into His image, yet, when we pursue exactly what the Bible tells us to do, we are accused of being prideful and like Lucifer.

Great post! :)
 

dragonfly

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1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts,
which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith,
and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereto thou art also called,
and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
 

williemac

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Apr 29, 2012
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Hebrews 12:14 strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.

1 Peter 1:15 But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living.

God's word tells us to pursue holiness, to be holy, but when we do.....we are accused of being like Lucifer. Do we take the Bible serious or not?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[sup] [/sup]The old has gone, the new is here!

1 John 4:17, "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world".

We can now be as He is because we have a NEW nature, the old has passed away, we practice righteousness, we become righteous, we practice Holiness, we become Holy because along with the NEW nature now God's grace has opened up the door and provided the tools and the way to be as He is in this world. Now, it is up to us what we do with what He has given us, do we reach out our hand also and take His or do we expect Him to do all the work? Please show us an example of God NOT expecting anything out of His people in all of the word? There is none.

Luke 12:48 ...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

We are being transformed into the image of Christ -
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

We are TOLD by God Himself, that we are to be transformed into His image, yet, when we pursue exactly what the Bible tells us to do, we are accused of being prideful and like Lucifer.
If this is in response to my post, then it is an unfair assessment, and rather self pitying, if I might add. I never accused anyone of being prideful like Lucifer. What I did was warn others to remain humble and realize who is the source of the righteousness in you. But there are those who compare themselves to others and condemn or criticize them for not living up to the same standard they are. The exhortationm to walk in the Spirit is not a condition for salvation. It is rather a command to bear fruit. But just because the bible speaks in black and white language, doesn't mean that those who are less diligent in bearing fruit are condemned or doomed.

Just a comment from 2Cor.3:18...It is often taken that the "glory to glory" is a series of successes in one's life in his walk. This conclusion does not fit the context. The context speaks of the two glories of: first, the old covenant of law as mediated by Moses, who's face shone from God's glory, and second, the glory of the new covenant of righteousness by faith. We are transformed into His image from the one glory to the other....from glory to glory. The transformation is not ours to possess, nor ours to produce.
 

Prentis

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If this is in response to my post, then it is an unfair assessment, and rather self pitying, if I might add. I never accused anyone of being prideful like Lucifer. What I did was warn others to remain humble and realize who is the source of the righteousness in you. But there are those who compare themselves to others and condemn or criticize them for not living up to the same standard they are. The exhortationm to walk in the Spirit is not a condition for salvation. It is rather a command to bear fruit. But just because the bible speaks in black and white language, doesn't mean that those who are less diligent in bearing fruit are condemned or doomed.

Just a comment from 2Cor.3:18...It is often taken that the "glory to glory" is a series of successes in one's life in his walk. This conclusion does not fit the context. The context speaks of the two glories of: first, the old covenant of law as mediated by Moses, who's face shone from God's glory, and second, the glory of the new covenant of righteousness by faith. We are transformed into His image from the one glory to the other....from glory to glory. The transformation is not ours to possess, nor ours to produce.

This is all said in innocent words, and probably possibly with innocent motives... But what many who say similar things fail to realize is that they use sentences like 'warn others to remain humble and realize who is the source of the righteousness in you' to deny that we can truly walk in that righteousness, that the power and life of Christ can truly takeover and we are like him, he lives in us. Again, not by our power but by his.

To turn 'from glory to glory' to be a simple doctrinal statement of two covenants rather than a statement of growth in life, although it might grasp a strand of truth, is a defusing of the purpose of the word.

What I am trying to point to is a human tendency to 'dislocate' the word, so to speak, to take it out of it's socket and thus render it powerless. Christianity is in life and in Spirit. People fight the truth this way.

The flesh will use a small sentence to be able to brush away a larger truth. Men use the Word against the very life it speaks of.
 
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