Like you said Bob, Revelation "is not all literal". But that doesn't mean we can wrongly assume the parts that are literal to be figurative. Mystic Christianity makes that mistake a lot. God's "two witnesses" will be two actual individuals upon the earth, serving in the ministries of Elijah and Moses, one because of the Malachi 4 prophecy, and the other because of the plagues and Egypt association in prophecy for the very end of this world. However, two candlesticks are mentioned along with the Rev.11 prophecy of the two witnesses, and Jesus revealed the candlesticks in Rev.1 are the Churches. So that's 2 + a multitude of witnesses for the end.
Seven Years of Tribulation,
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Like you said Bob, Revelation "is not all literal". But that doesn't mean we can wrongly assume the parts that are literal to be figurative. Mystic Christianity makes that mistake a lot. God's "two witnesses" will be two actual individuals upon the earth, serving in the ministries of Elijah and Moses, one because of the Malachi 4 prophecy, and the other because of the plagues and Egypt association in prophecy for the very end of this world. However, two candlesticks are mentioned along with the Rev.11 prophecy of the two witnesses, and Jesus revealed the candlesticks in Rev.1 are the Churches. So that's 2 + a multitude of witnesses for the end.
Thank you, Saint, for giving me the opportunity to explain myself and Veteran, what you are pointing out is exactly what I am getting at, only more than just applying that to the 2 Witnesses.
Yes, the individuals listed in Revelation, i.e. the Seven Angels, the Woman who gives birth to the child and the 2 Witnesses are all literal people. While I agree that there are many symbolic elements in Revelation, the main characters in this story are all flesh and blood individuals.
The Seven Angels are 7 people all born on the earth just like Jesus was. The symbolism used to describe them and their actions are just like the symbolism Jesus used on Himself when He called himself the Light, and used bread and wine as symbolic referances to his body and His death and resurrection. I dont think anyone here believes that Jesus Himself was an unreal symbol, though people who do not understand the Power of God have tried to say so.
One of these 7 will be Michael and one of the others will be the Beast, with the False Prophet rising from among the Seven. The woman in Revelation is spoken of as being clothed with the Sun and standing on the moon for example. We know that this exact same symbolism was used by Joseph to describe his father (the sun), his mother (the moon) and his brothers (the stars). People recognize the symbols but then try to make it out that the woman herself is also symbolic, which is incorrect, just as the symbols from Joseph were also about real people. She has to be a real person, because she is linked to the same 42 month, 1260 day, 3 1/2 time period (these are all the same and the bible cross-references them together several times to prove it) as the 2 Witnesses and the reign of the Beast.
The rest of it works on a similar principle.
What is surprising to me is that almost everyone agrees that the Beast and the False Prophet are real people, yet they have been taught that all the rest are unreal symbols, when the Bible seems clear about the opposite.
Yes, the individuals listed in Revelation, i.e. the Seven Angels, the Woman who gives birth to the child and the 2 Witnesses are all literal people. While I agree that there are many symbolic elements in Revelation, the main characters in this story are all flesh and blood individuals.
The Seven Angels are 7 people all born on the earth just like Jesus was. The symbolism used to describe them and their actions are just like the symbolism Jesus used on Himself when He called himself the Light, and used bread and wine as symbolic referances to his body and His death and resurrection. I dont think anyone here believes that Jesus Himself was an unreal symbol, though people who do not understand the Power of God have tried to say so.
One of these 7 will be Michael and one of the others will be the Beast, with the False Prophet rising from among the Seven. The woman in Revelation is spoken of as being clothed with the Sun and standing on the moon for example. We know that this exact same symbolism was used by Joseph to describe his father (the sun), his mother (the moon) and his brothers (the stars). People recognize the symbols but then try to make it out that the woman herself is also symbolic, which is incorrect, just as the symbols from Joseph were also about real people. She has to be a real person, because she is linked to the same 42 month, 1260 day, 3 1/2 time period (these are all the same and the bible cross-references them together several times to prove it) as the 2 Witnesses and the reign of the Beast.
The rest of it works on a similar principle.
What is surprising to me is that almost everyone agrees that the Beast and the False Prophet are real people, yet they have been taught that all the rest are unreal symbols, when the Bible seems clear about the opposite.
Hi Josy, please show me scripture which will prove your point that the seven angels that stand before the golden altar of Yahweh in His Heavenly Realm are flesh and blood and not spiritual. There are two sets of seven angels; those with the seven trumpets and those with the seven plagues. The first might well be evil angels because they disperse tribulation upon the world but the second are angels which disperse the wrath of Yahweh upon the world and because of this are Yahweh’s angels of light.
Michael is an Archangel; a spiritual being; He is the chief angel of all the angels. The beast is an evil angel released from the abyss in Rev 9; this evil angel (beast) is the one who kills the two witnesses in Rev 11; he is given his authority by Satan himself. The woman is open to many different interceptions; some say Israel and some say the church; I guess some even say both but I have never heard anyone say the women is a single person (maybe that not what you are saying).
I tell you what brother I’m open to a lot of things because none of us understand the full truth; all we have are opinions, my self included but much of what you have to say strikes me to be without consideration. In the finial analysis if you cannot support your position based on scripture we have nothing to proceed on.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Michael is an Archangel; a spiritual being; He is the chief angel of all the angels. The beast is an evil angel released from the abyss in Rev 9; this evil angel (beast) is the one who kills the two witnesses in Rev 11; he is given his authority by Satan himself. The woman is open to many different interceptions; some say Israel and some say the church; I guess some even say both but I have never heard anyone say the women is a single person (maybe that not what you are saying).
I tell you what brother I’m open to a lot of things because none of us understand the full truth; all we have are opinions, my self included but much of what you have to say strikes me to be without consideration. In the finial analysis if you cannot support your position based on scripture we have nothing to proceed on.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Verse 21 is the next verse to be forfilled..
The verses preceding this verse has been taking place the last 60 years or so.
Daniel 11 is mainly about United States presidents. and thier ocupations in the middle east..
Hello Saint, I am happy to respond to your request.
I will assume that if I can prove Biblically that at least ONE of the Seven is a real flesh and man that is also referred to as an Angel, you should be able to accept that the rest are men as well, so I will do so with pleasure.
It appears you may be unfamiliar with the original appearance of the rider of the Red Horse. He shows up the first time in Zech 1 in the Old Testament. Allow me to quote this:
Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].
Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth
Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Now in Revelation:
Rev 6:3 ¶ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Zecheriah, as you see, calls the Rider of the Red Horse a Man, and then identifies him as the Angel of the Lord. Revelations again speaks of this Rider of the Red Horse as an individual whom is given Great Power and takes peace from the world as a result of its apostasy, which exactly fits what I have previously shown you. Not only that, but this Rider of the Red Horse identifies the colored horses with him also to be men that the Lord has sent to roam the earth.
Once again, it is pretty straight up and easy to understand. The rest of it follows in like manner.
On a side note, there is only one group of Seven, they simply cycle through in rotation 4 times. Also, Jesus was also a spiritual being, but that did not make Him any less of a man and you did read me right, I am absolutely saying that the woman is a real person as well, for if she is not, how is it that the 144,000 (who are also real people) protect her in the wilderness.
This is what the Bible says, why is it so hard to believe?
I will assume that if I can prove Biblically that at least ONE of the Seven is a real flesh and man that is also referred to as an Angel, you should be able to accept that the rest are men as well, so I will do so with pleasure.
It appears you may be unfamiliar with the original appearance of the rider of the Red Horse. He shows up the first time in Zech 1 in the Old Testament. Allow me to quote this:
Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].
Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth
Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Now in Revelation:
Rev 6:3 ¶ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Zecheriah, as you see, calls the Rider of the Red Horse a Man, and then identifies him as the Angel of the Lord. Revelations again speaks of this Rider of the Red Horse as an individual whom is given Great Power and takes peace from the world as a result of its apostasy, which exactly fits what I have previously shown you. Not only that, but this Rider of the Red Horse identifies the colored horses with him also to be men that the Lord has sent to roam the earth.
Once again, it is pretty straight up and easy to understand. The rest of it follows in like manner.
On a side note, there is only one group of Seven, they simply cycle through in rotation 4 times. Also, Jesus was also a spiritual being, but that did not make Him any less of a man and you did read me right, I am absolutely saying that the woman is a real person as well, for if she is not, how is it that the 144,000 (who are also real people) protect her in the wilderness.
This is what the Bible says, why is it so hard to believe?
tim_from_pa
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2520 = 7 x 360 a literal 7 years for short fulfillment (see my earlier post) as prophecy has double fulfillment.
Once again, I stress to you all, applying the Day for Year theory to Daniel 8 and 9 is an incorrect interpretation. Doing this destroyed the people who followed John Miller in the 1800's. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. All it did was destroy all who bought into that error.
God told Ezekiel to use this method during his attempt to wake up the Jews but God NEVER told ANYONE to use it in relation to Daniel. In fact, using it, especially when you know that the 70 weeks is GODs OWN interpretation of the 70 Year prophecy in Jeremiah is in fact altering the Word of God.
God told Ezekiel to use this method during his attempt to wake up the Jews but God NEVER told ANYONE to use it in relation to Daniel. In fact, using it, especially when you know that the 70 weeks is GODs OWN interpretation of the 70 Year prophecy in Jeremiah is in fact altering the Word of God.
Sorry to say Josy but you are losing me in you analysis; are you saying that the rider on the red horse in Zechariah 1 is a man and then you say he is the Angel of the LORD; what are you saying, which one is he? The rider on the horse in Zechariah is the Angel of the LORD, the captain of the LORDS army. He might appear as a mortal man but believe me He isn't that at all.
Might be simple to you but not to me brother.
Again the red horse in Zechariah and the red horseman in Revelation are not the same horse or rider Josy....sorry!
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Might be simple to you but not to me brother.
Again the red horse in Zechariah and the red horseman in Revelation are not the same horse or rider Josy....sorry!
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Well Saint, not sure how much clearer I can make it.
You asked for proof and I have shown it. You see the exact matches of Zech and Revelations and choose not to believe your eyes.
I had a professor at the university once tell me that Daniel was not a real man either. He claimed Daniel was just a myth made up by some cleric during the time of the Maccabees (this particular fellow was the head of the Religion Dept by the way). I pointed to the writings of Ezekiel and showed him where Ezekiel (who I know he believed to be real) spoke of Daniel glowingly (Eze 14:14,20 and Eze 28:3). I asked him if Daniel was not a real man, then why did Ezekiel seem to know him so well. He replied (and I quote) "We don't know who that Daniel was". Strangely, I only know of one Daniel that was supposed to have lived during the time of Ezekiel that Ezekiel might have thought so highly about that he would use him as a reference that he felt everyone would know about. It seemed strange to me that this Professor would not know "who that Daniel was"
Now, I don't know of how many 'Riders of Red Horses" you are familier with in the Bible, but I don't seem to find too many, especially when the people surrounding him (i.e. the Red, Speckled and White horses who he clearly identifies as men) are right there with him just like in Revelation.
Therefore, I believe you are mistaken. These two riders are the same guy, and that guy is Michael.
You asked for proof and I have shown it. You see the exact matches of Zech and Revelations and choose not to believe your eyes.
I had a professor at the university once tell me that Daniel was not a real man either. He claimed Daniel was just a myth made up by some cleric during the time of the Maccabees (this particular fellow was the head of the Religion Dept by the way). I pointed to the writings of Ezekiel and showed him where Ezekiel (who I know he believed to be real) spoke of Daniel glowingly (Eze 14:14,20 and Eze 28:3). I asked him if Daniel was not a real man, then why did Ezekiel seem to know him so well. He replied (and I quote) "We don't know who that Daniel was". Strangely, I only know of one Daniel that was supposed to have lived during the time of Ezekiel that Ezekiel might have thought so highly about that he would use him as a reference that he felt everyone would know about. It seemed strange to me that this Professor would not know "who that Daniel was"
Now, I don't know of how many 'Riders of Red Horses" you are familier with in the Bible, but I don't seem to find too many, especially when the people surrounding him (i.e. the Red, Speckled and White horses who he clearly identifies as men) are right there with him just like in Revelation.
Therefore, I believe you are mistaken. These two riders are the same guy, and that guy is Michael.
Josy think about what you are attempting to do; you are trying to make the preincarnate Messiah into a mortal man, that’s who is the rider of the red horse in Zec 1:8 and then you are attempting to make Him to the angel of war on the blood horse in Revelation 6. Sorry but we’ll just have to disagree brother.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
That's ok. I know I am right on this one and as time goes on and the situation begins to transpire, it will become obvious.
I am pretty sure the time will be not too far away.
It’s Michael the first time and it’s Michael the second time in these passages. The match is perfect. I will not attempt to understand how you think the rider of the red Horse in Zech is the 'preincarnate messiah' since the Bible says no such thing, nor will I understand how you paint the same person as 'the Angel of War' (which you say as if it is a bad person) in Revelation since a reading of the Second Angel in Rev 2 (the rider is the second Angel after all) shows him to be 1 of only 2 (the other being the 6th Angel) who God actually likes. Funny God would speak so highly of him if he was some type of bad person.
But I appreciate your comments as they have given me a chance to explain this concept (which appears to have gone unnoticed by pretty much everyone) in more depth. In actuality, I have only scratched the surface. I have not even touched on how the prophecies of the Six men who come from the way of the North in Eze 9, the seven women of Isa 4, the prophecy of Noah, Daniel and Job reappearing during the Tribulation in Eze 14 or a huge other number of other prophecies that this explanation suddenly causes to make sense, all of which are completely ignored by todays Bible teachers because they just simply can’t make them fit into the erroneous thinking they stand by.
I thank the Lord for this knowledge, for it was He that gave it to me.
I will show you another of the prophesies that supports my interpretation of the Seven Angels being men so you will know that the first one I showed you was not alone (not by any means) and it comes from Ezekiel 6:
Revelation is literal in that seven men endowed heavily with the Holy Spirit will appear on the earth. The are all sent by God, but they are not all good. However they follow this patter outlined in Ezekiel:
Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
Eze 9:3 ¶ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.
Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
The reason there are only six is because the Seventh one does nothing, being neither hot nor cold, and it is this seventh that is the Beast, who is cast out according to Revelation.
The one clothed in Linen is Michael , and as you can see, it is he that seals the righteous before God unleashes the rest of the Angels on the people (this is how Gods people will survive the Tribulation, not by being sucked up into the atmosphere as many teach) and this parallels Revelation where it states that the Rider of the Red Horse (Michael) is given a great sword and takes peace from the earth.
This same event is spoken of in Revelation 7:
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
And I can keep going matching with extreme precision Old Testament prophecies that are fulfilled by the interpretation I am showing you. This all becomes so simple and easy to understand. It is not the convoluted mess that is being commonly pilfered to us.
I am pretty sure the time will be not too far away.
It’s Michael the first time and it’s Michael the second time in these passages. The match is perfect. I will not attempt to understand how you think the rider of the red Horse in Zech is the 'preincarnate messiah' since the Bible says no such thing, nor will I understand how you paint the same person as 'the Angel of War' (which you say as if it is a bad person) in Revelation since a reading of the Second Angel in Rev 2 (the rider is the second Angel after all) shows him to be 1 of only 2 (the other being the 6th Angel) who God actually likes. Funny God would speak so highly of him if he was some type of bad person.
But I appreciate your comments as they have given me a chance to explain this concept (which appears to have gone unnoticed by pretty much everyone) in more depth. In actuality, I have only scratched the surface. I have not even touched on how the prophecies of the Six men who come from the way of the North in Eze 9, the seven women of Isa 4, the prophecy of Noah, Daniel and Job reappearing during the Tribulation in Eze 14 or a huge other number of other prophecies that this explanation suddenly causes to make sense, all of which are completely ignored by todays Bible teachers because they just simply can’t make them fit into the erroneous thinking they stand by.
I thank the Lord for this knowledge, for it was He that gave it to me.
I will show you another of the prophesies that supports my interpretation of the Seven Angels being men so you will know that the first one I showed you was not alone (not by any means) and it comes from Ezekiel 6:
Revelation is literal in that seven men endowed heavily with the Holy Spirit will appear on the earth. The are all sent by God, but they are not all good. However they follow this patter outlined in Ezekiel:
Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
Eze 9:3 ¶ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.
Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
The reason there are only six is because the Seventh one does nothing, being neither hot nor cold, and it is this seventh that is the Beast, who is cast out according to Revelation.
The one clothed in Linen is Michael , and as you can see, it is he that seals the righteous before God unleashes the rest of the Angels on the people (this is how Gods people will survive the Tribulation, not by being sucked up into the atmosphere as many teach) and this parallels Revelation where it states that the Rider of the Red Horse (Michael) is given a great sword and takes peace from the earth.
This same event is spoken of in Revelation 7:
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
And I can keep going matching with extreme precision Old Testament prophecies that are fulfilled by the interpretation I am showing you. This all becomes so simple and easy to understand. It is not the convoluted mess that is being commonly pilfered to us.
LambOfChrist
New Member
JosyWales
I fail to see why you would think that I do not see that Daniel speaks of our time. Everything I write is about our time. We are in the final 7 years. The covenant is signed and we await the abomination as the next fulfilled sign of his coming. The king of the North will soon move against the king of the south and this will herald the breaking of the covenant. Unless I am missing something, which I admit is possible.
I fail to see why you would think that I do not see that Daniel speaks of our time. Everything I write is about our time. We are in the final 7 years. The covenant is signed and we await the abomination as the next fulfilled sign of his coming. The king of the North will soon move against the king of the south and this will herald the breaking of the covenant. Unless I am missing something, which I admit is possible.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, JosyWales.
That is not a proof; that is a manipulation of the numbers that exist within Scripture. To really "PROVE" something with numbers, there must either be a direct, deductive proof or there must be a hypothesis formed and while attempting to prove the opposite of the hypothesis, lead to a contradition, thereby inductively proving the original hypothesis. You are not doing either one. You're just taking some random numbers, adding them up, and looking for another number that is close to the result.
True numbers ALWAYS have units or explanations for what those numbers represent in real life. For instance, in arithmetic, we're taught 3 x 12 = 36, but that's just a useless calculation until it can seen in real life with units attached: 3 feet per yard x 12 inches per foot = 36 inches per yard. NOW, those numbers have MEANING! That's also the reason for those infamous "word problems." The "word problems" are the REAL mathematics for the all the calculations that we are taught. The biggest challenge that a person faces with a word problem is to make sure that he or she has DEFINED the variables and constants that he or she will be using in the calculations! And, with units attached and proper unit analysis, the answer will be meaningful as well as correct.
It's okay. People do it all the time, both in prophecy circles and in daily life. You don't even need to respond. Just understand that this is going down a wrong path, and CHANGE PATHS!
God bless you in your endeavors.
That is not a proof; that is a manipulation of the numbers that exist within Scripture. To really "PROVE" something with numbers, there must either be a direct, deductive proof or there must be a hypothesis formed and while attempting to prove the opposite of the hypothesis, lead to a contradition, thereby inductively proving the original hypothesis. You are not doing either one. You're just taking some random numbers, adding them up, and looking for another number that is close to the result.
True numbers ALWAYS have units or explanations for what those numbers represent in real life. For instance, in arithmetic, we're taught 3 x 12 = 36, but that's just a useless calculation until it can seen in real life with units attached: 3 feet per yard x 12 inches per foot = 36 inches per yard. NOW, those numbers have MEANING! That's also the reason for those infamous "word problems." The "word problems" are the REAL mathematics for the all the calculations that we are taught. The biggest challenge that a person faces with a word problem is to make sure that he or she has DEFINED the variables and constants that he or she will be using in the calculations! And, with units attached and proper unit analysis, the answer will be meaningful as well as correct.
It's okay. People do it all the time, both in prophecy circles and in daily life. You don't even need to respond. Just understand that this is going down a wrong path, and CHANGE PATHS!
God bless you in your endeavors.
I have not failed the Lord in this. I have shown you the truth.
I have taken all the times that are clearly and concisely listed in Revelation concerning the Apocalypse and subtracted the time listed in Daniel 8, which clearly states that it is how long the Apocalypse will last. I have exactly 70 Weeks difference between the two, which is exactly the time listed in Daniel 9.
There is no manipulation or confusion in what I have done. You do err in saying differently.
Btw, for the laymen who are reading this, let me make this as clear as possible.
I am taking ALL the days listed in Revelation concerning the Apocalypes, which are laid out in a straight sequence, but only start with the going forth of the 5th Angel onward untill the resurrection of the 2 witnesses, for reasons that become appearant when we find that the 70 weeks of Daniel, the only other set of days listed in the Bible related directly with events of the Apocalypse, are needed to add up to the only set days listed in the Bible that clearly states how long the complete length of the Apocalypse will be.
It is impossible for this to be coincidence.
It also means that the days listed in Daniel 8 and 9, as well as ALL the days listed in Revelation are exactly what God says they are, that is literal days and are not to be twisted into some other meaning.
It further means that the Anointed One (messiah) of Daniel 9 cannot be Jesus, which means, since Daniel spoke of the appearance of Michael, it must apply to Michael.
To try to say to me that these simple facts are confusion is akin to asking me "What is truth?".
I have taken all the times that are clearly and concisely listed in Revelation concerning the Apocalypse and subtracted the time listed in Daniel 8, which clearly states that it is how long the Apocalypse will last. I have exactly 70 Weeks difference between the two, which is exactly the time listed in Daniel 9.
There is no manipulation or confusion in what I have done. You do err in saying differently.
Btw, for the laymen who are reading this, let me make this as clear as possible.
I am taking ALL the days listed in Revelation concerning the Apocalypes, which are laid out in a straight sequence, but only start with the going forth of the 5th Angel onward untill the resurrection of the 2 witnesses, for reasons that become appearant when we find that the 70 weeks of Daniel, the only other set of days listed in the Bible related directly with events of the Apocalypse, are needed to add up to the only set days listed in the Bible that clearly states how long the complete length of the Apocalypse will be.
It is impossible for this to be coincidence.
It also means that the days listed in Daniel 8 and 9, as well as ALL the days listed in Revelation are exactly what God says they are, that is literal days and are not to be twisted into some other meaning.
It further means that the Anointed One (messiah) of Daniel 9 cannot be Jesus, which means, since Daniel spoke of the appearance of Michael, it must apply to Michael.
To try to say to me that these simple facts are confusion is akin to asking me "What is truth?".
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, JosyWales.
I didn't say that you "failed the Lord," nor would I accuse you of doing so, but you've only shown me what you THINK is the truth. I know WHAT you have done; I just don't think you have a VALID ENOUGH REASON for doing it! There is no mathematical reason I can see in Dani'el or Revelation that suggests it should be done! I have not "erred" to point this out to you. In fact, if I HADN'T pointed it out, I would feel as though I was contributing to the error.
2 Timothy 4:2-5
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
KJV
Ephesians 4:11-32
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
KJV
Revelation IS the "Apokalupsis," the "taking off the lid" or the "uncovering." That is the name of the book in Greek. "Revelation" means a "revealing!" Take all the numbers you want, you STILL don't have a clear mandate to add them all up, as you have done! It's only "impossible for this to be coincidence" because you have ENGINEERED the calculation to be what you "expect" it to be, what you WANT it to be!
Dani'el 9 does not use the word "yowm" ("day"); it uses the word "shaavuwa`'" ("seven"). It has been translated as "week," but it really means "sevened." Since this was based upon Dani'el's study of Yirmeyahu's "70 years," this "70 sevens," 70x7, are also about years! That's the only unit of time in Dani'el 9!
And, once again, I am forced to wonder if anyone will EVER listen to what I'm saying! Yeshua` was NOT talking in the Olivet Discourse about anything in Dani'el except Dani'el 9:24-27!!! Do you understand the genitive case in Greek? It is most often translated as that word with the beginning preposition, "of." An example would be "kingdom OF heaven." This case shows ownership or origin. Just as "son of man" means "man's son," "kingdom of heaven" can mean "heaven's kingdom." It can also mean "kingdom coming from heaven." (Technically, this is more the ablative case, but they are often the same in Greek.) The reason why I bring up the genitive case (or the ablative case) is THAT is the case that is used in Matthew 24:15! It is the "abomination OF desolation," showing ownership or origin! Thus, it is "desolation's abomination" or the "abomination coming from desolation!" That's what Dani'el's record shows in Dan. 9:27: "For the spreading out of abominations like a wing, He has made it desolate, even until the culmination!" And, that is PRECISELY what Yeshua` did in Matthew 23:37-39! Then, that desolation ultimately led to the ultimate abomination - the destruction of the Temple!
Why is that so hard to accept? So it doesn't have anything to do with the "antichrist." SO WHAT?
I didn't say that you "failed the Lord," nor would I accuse you of doing so, but you've only shown me what you THINK is the truth. I know WHAT you have done; I just don't think you have a VALID ENOUGH REASON for doing it! There is no mathematical reason I can see in Dani'el or Revelation that suggests it should be done! I have not "erred" to point this out to you. In fact, if I HADN'T pointed it out, I would feel as though I was contributing to the error.
2 Timothy 4:2-5
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
KJV
Ephesians 4:11-32
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
KJV
Revelation IS the "Apokalupsis," the "taking off the lid" or the "uncovering." That is the name of the book in Greek. "Revelation" means a "revealing!" Take all the numbers you want, you STILL don't have a clear mandate to add them all up, as you have done! It's only "impossible for this to be coincidence" because you have ENGINEERED the calculation to be what you "expect" it to be, what you WANT it to be!
Dani'el 9 does not use the word "yowm" ("day"); it uses the word "shaavuwa`'" ("seven"). It has been translated as "week," but it really means "sevened." Since this was based upon Dani'el's study of Yirmeyahu's "70 years," this "70 sevens," 70x7, are also about years! That's the only unit of time in Dani'el 9!
And, once again, I am forced to wonder if anyone will EVER listen to what I'm saying! Yeshua` was NOT talking in the Olivet Discourse about anything in Dani'el except Dani'el 9:24-27!!! Do you understand the genitive case in Greek? It is most often translated as that word with the beginning preposition, "of." An example would be "kingdom OF heaven." This case shows ownership or origin. Just as "son of man" means "man's son," "kingdom of heaven" can mean "heaven's kingdom." It can also mean "kingdom coming from heaven." (Technically, this is more the ablative case, but they are often the same in Greek.) The reason why I bring up the genitive case (or the ablative case) is THAT is the case that is used in Matthew 24:15! It is the "abomination OF desolation," showing ownership or origin! Thus, it is "desolation's abomination" or the "abomination coming from desolation!" That's what Dani'el's record shows in Dan. 9:27: "For the spreading out of abominations like a wing, He has made it desolate, even until the culmination!" And, that is PRECISELY what Yeshua` did in Matthew 23:37-39! Then, that desolation ultimately led to the ultimate abomination - the destruction of the Temple!
Why is that so hard to accept? So it doesn't have anything to do with the "antichrist." SO WHAT?
I really dont know what more I can say to you Retro. I have shown you my reasoning, which is nothing more than taking all the days that are attributed in the Bible concerning the Apocalypse and adding them up. I have even gone so far as to show you why I did and and how it worked out. It is surely more reasonable than the other explainations being offered here and, unlike all the rest, it fits perfectly without having to depend on things outside the Bible to support it.
But lets get past that since I can see that this logic is not acceptable to you.
So lets look at what you have just said:
(sigh) The reason the Bible says it should be done is because these are ALL and the ONLY numbers actually stated directly as time periods associated with the Apocalypse. There is more reason to do it this way than any other way I see being presented here, including your own.
Retro, have you ever actually done a word search in the Bible on the Hebrew word "Shaavuwa' "? Its easy to do. Go to BlueLetterBible.com and pull it up. You will find that this word is used 20 times in the Bible. 8 of those times it is used in Daniel. In EVERY other verse, including the 7 other times it is used by Daniel himself, it is ALWAYS meant to be interpreted as a WEEK.
Example:
Dan 10:2
In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks (sjaaviwa').
Dan 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks (shaavuwa') were fulfilled.
If this isnt good enough for you, how about this:
Gen 29:28
And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week (shaavuwa'): and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
Or even here:
Deu 16:9 ¶ Seven weeks (shaavuwa') shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks (shaavuwa') from [such time as] thou beginnest [to put] the sickle to the corn.
In every single other place in the whole Bible that this word is used, it ALWAYS means WEEKS. Yet you are trying to tell these people that in this one place, it DOESN'T mean it? Sorry, what you are doing is a real case of engineering. Perhaps that is why you think you see it in me.
Everything you put forth here has no bearing on what I have shown you. Worse, you are telling us your opinion as if it is fact, unlike what I have done. It is not my opinion that all the days listed in Revelation and Daniel add up to 2300 Days. It is a true fact and easily proved as I have done.
However, you have revealed yourself in you above words. It is clear you are trying to say that the event of Daniel 9 happened already during the time of Jesus, and this it not so. Your manipulation of the word of God cannot make it so. You are wrong.
If you think I am being harsh, I am sorry, I do not mean to be so. I am sure you believe yourself to be a follower of Jesus, but you have been misled. If you do not wish to heed my words now, then at least please remember them for later. You may need them when you finally see with your own eyes the events of Daniel taking place before you.
I am sending out a warning to any that can listen.
But lets get past that since I can see that this logic is not acceptable to you.
So lets look at what you have just said:
(sigh) The reason the Bible says it should be done is because these are ALL and the ONLY numbers actually stated directly as time periods associated with the Apocalypse. There is more reason to do it this way than any other way I see being presented here, including your own.
Retro, have you ever actually done a word search in the Bible on the Hebrew word "Shaavuwa' "? Its easy to do. Go to BlueLetterBible.com and pull it up. You will find that this word is used 20 times in the Bible. 8 of those times it is used in Daniel. In EVERY other verse, including the 7 other times it is used by Daniel himself, it is ALWAYS meant to be interpreted as a WEEK.
Example:
Dan 10:2
In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks (sjaaviwa').
Dan 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks (shaavuwa') were fulfilled.
If this isnt good enough for you, how about this:
Gen 29:28
And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week (shaavuwa'): and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
Or even here:
Deu 16:9 ¶ Seven weeks (shaavuwa') shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks (shaavuwa') from [such time as] thou beginnest [to put] the sickle to the corn.
In every single other place in the whole Bible that this word is used, it ALWAYS means WEEKS. Yet you are trying to tell these people that in this one place, it DOESN'T mean it? Sorry, what you are doing is a real case of engineering. Perhaps that is why you think you see it in me.
Everything you put forth here has no bearing on what I have shown you. Worse, you are telling us your opinion as if it is fact, unlike what I have done. It is not my opinion that all the days listed in Revelation and Daniel add up to 2300 Days. It is a true fact and easily proved as I have done.
However, you have revealed yourself in you above words. It is clear you are trying to say that the event of Daniel 9 happened already during the time of Jesus, and this it not so. Your manipulation of the word of God cannot make it so. You are wrong.
If you think I am being harsh, I am sorry, I do not mean to be so. I am sure you believe yourself to be a follower of Jesus, but you have been misled. If you do not wish to heed my words now, then at least please remember them for later. You may need them when you finally see with your own eyes the events of Daniel taking place before you.
I am sending out a warning to any that can listen.
Yes I agree with this; I have for some time now!
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
People are looking for something that has already occured!
So Saint, do you also think Revelation has already happened like it seems Retro does. If I am misunderstanding what you both are saying, please let me know.
You do understand don't you that if what Retro is saying is true, not only is it unsupportable opinion, but it also means that vast portions of the Bible are in disagreement with it. I do not mind providing examples if you wish.
I used to think the worst lie Satan has gotten people to believe about the Apocalypse is that they are going to make a getaway by flying up into the air and avoiding the coming catastrophe. Now I see he has a second one, just as insidious, that he has gotten people to buy into. After all, if it is already happened, then you are home free right?
I would say Good luck with that, but I don’t think that’s the way it will work out for you.
You do understand don't you that if what Retro is saying is true, not only is it unsupportable opinion, but it also means that vast portions of the Bible are in disagreement with it. I do not mind providing examples if you wish.
I used to think the worst lie Satan has gotten people to believe about the Apocalypse is that they are going to make a getaway by flying up into the air and avoiding the coming catastrophe. Now I see he has a second one, just as insidious, that he has gotten people to buy into. After all, if it is already happened, then you are home free right?
I would say Good luck with that, but I don’t think that’s the way it will work out for you.
To answer your question JosyWales; I think Revelation likely covers that time period from the first advent of Yeshua to the second and what follows thereafter.
Have you ever really read Isaiah, in particular the first 10 chapters and attempted to discern the timing of the events described? Many things described therein certainly appear to pertain to the Second Advent but in reality cover the time of the first and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Have you ever really read Isaiah, in particular the first 10 chapters and attempted to discern the timing of the events described? Many things described therein certainly appear to pertain to the Second Advent but in reality cover the time of the first and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Yes Saint, I have read Isaiah and I find a direct relation to Isaiah 4 with Revelation among others.
Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
It goes on of course, but here we find the mention of two sets of people, the Seven women who take hold of one man and the man known as the Branch. This takes us to two places but they end up together.
First, you should do a search on this fellow known as the Branch. You will find that it is not Jesus, but someone else. He shows up several places.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone [shall be] seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
As you probably know, Joshua is the Old Testament name of Jesus. The Branch is being presented before Him along with Seven Eyes. This Branch is now also being referred to as a stone.
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
This is pretty interesting, isn’t it? But there is more
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and [his] left [foot] on the earth,
Rev 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
The Branch and the Mighty Angel are both Michael.
Now you may not see why I think the Seven Thunders of Revelation are the Seven Women of Isaiah 4, but I found this passage as well:
Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].
Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom the LORD fro through the earth.
Why do I include this? It is because I have found what the Myrtle trees are symbolic of by doing a search on names in the Bible.
You may not realize this, but Esther’s real Hebrew name is Hadassah. (Est 2:7)
Why does this make a difference? Look at what Hadassah means according to Strong’s Concordance:
Hadassah = "myrtle"
1) queen Esther's Jewish name
Since Esthers name is Hebrew means a myrtle, the Myrtle Trees of this passage are meant to symbolize righteous women akin to being like Esther.
This again supports my view of the Seven Angels being real people. It appears that when Michael reveals himself on earth, the two witnesses become his support per Rev 10:2, i.e. The strong angel (Michael) putting one foot on the Earth and the other foot on the Sea (the two witnesses) and forming an alliance with the Seven Thunders, who are the seven women of Isa 4:2 and are also the seven eyes of Zec 3:9.
This explains the prophecy of Zec 4:
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all [of] gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which [are] upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right [side] of the bowl, and the other upon the left [side] thereof.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
The two anointed ones are the 2 Witnesses; they stand beside Michael, the Strong Angel of Revelation 10, who in turn is surrounded by the Seven Thunders (the 7 righteous women of Isa 4) whom he supports during the time of the Apocalypse.
It is beautiful as the Bible says
Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
It goes on of course, but here we find the mention of two sets of people, the Seven women who take hold of one man and the man known as the Branch. This takes us to two places but they end up together.
First, you should do a search on this fellow known as the Branch. You will find that it is not Jesus, but someone else. He shows up several places.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone [shall be] seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
As you probably know, Joshua is the Old Testament name of Jesus. The Branch is being presented before Him along with Seven Eyes. This Branch is now also being referred to as a stone.
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
This is pretty interesting, isn’t it? But there is more
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and [his] left [foot] on the earth,
Rev 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
The Branch and the Mighty Angel are both Michael.
Now you may not see why I think the Seven Thunders of Revelation are the Seven Women of Isaiah 4, but I found this passage as well:
Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.
Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].
Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom the LORD fro through the earth.
Why do I include this? It is because I have found what the Myrtle trees are symbolic of by doing a search on names in the Bible.
You may not realize this, but Esther’s real Hebrew name is Hadassah. (Est 2:7)
Why does this make a difference? Look at what Hadassah means according to Strong’s Concordance:
Hadassah = "myrtle"
1) queen Esther's Jewish name
Since Esthers name is Hebrew means a myrtle, the Myrtle Trees of this passage are meant to symbolize righteous women akin to being like Esther.
This again supports my view of the Seven Angels being real people. It appears that when Michael reveals himself on earth, the two witnesses become his support per Rev 10:2, i.e. The strong angel (Michael) putting one foot on the Earth and the other foot on the Sea (the two witnesses) and forming an alliance with the Seven Thunders, who are the seven women of Isa 4:2 and are also the seven eyes of Zec 3:9.
This explains the prophecy of Zec 4:
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all [of] gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which [are] upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right [side] of the bowl, and the other upon the left [side] thereof.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
The two anointed ones are the 2 Witnesses; they stand beside Michael, the Strong Angel of Revelation 10, who in turn is surrounded by the Seven Thunders (the 7 righteous women of Isa 4) whom he supports during the time of the Apocalypse.
It is beautiful as the Bible says
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