Tithing - "How to" not "whether"

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
7angels said:
nowhere that i know of had i said we were under the law. i said we are still to obey the law. even Jesus gave us two commandments that encompasses all other commandments. to love God and love your neighbor. these are old testaments commandments that Jesus told us to obey. so if these two are still valid then there are others too. btw

physical circumcision is symbolic to being circumcised of the heart. but yes in answer to your question we are to follow the commandment to be circumcised(of the heart).

do you still have questions about what i am referring too? if not i will go on an explain more but i need to know you understand where i am at first before i go on.
Here is what you said:

grace does not cancel out the law but compliments the law(matt 5:17-48).

Where do you see this "compliments" the law? My Bible says, "Fulfills the law".

Jesus came not to negate the law but in all actuality he made the law more strict.

Actually, the Holy Spirit through Paul says that we are "delivered from the law".
Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Also, the law cannot get any stricter than it was. You cannot get any stricter than death for disobedience to the law.

It is because of grace that are able to conquer sin and be made righteous before God.

Well, it is because of grace but it is also because we have been delivered from the law, by grace (Romans_7:6) and made a new creature in Christ (something that never existed in the OT) and indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It is also because we have died with Christ and been raised to newness of life. The man that died in Christ was subject to the law. The new creature that was raised in Christ is now free from the law to marry another. Free to marry Christ. We cannot be married to the Law and to Christ. That is spiritual adultery and idolatry.

Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


The law for the church is to show us what we need to change in our lives to allow us to have a closer relationship with God.

No. The Law is for the lawbreaker not for the Church. The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is for the Church.
1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


Matt 5:18 shows us not even the minutest part of the law shall perish until everything that God has declared happens. thus the old testament commands have not been declared null and void.

Yes, the law shall not perish, so that is why you must perish (die) in order to be free from the law and to serve Christ. When you were born-again (spiritually regenerated), your old man died and a new man rose in his place.

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

If you put yourself under the law or think that you have not been delivered from it, then you are obligated to "continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them".
Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

It is true that the law WAS our schoolmaster. The Scriptures actually say that in Gal_3:24.
Gal_3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But Gal_3:25 says that for those who have come to faith in Christ, "WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER (the LAW)".
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So, if we are led by the Spirit we will love God with our all of our heart and we will not defraud our neighbor in any way. We will love our neighbor! This is what Jesus means by going further than what the law requires. Jesus fulfills the law by truly loving God and man from the heart and not just obeying the law from an outward point of view. In the OT they knew that the act of adultery was a transgression of the commandment. But, what about lust in their heart? Jesus deals with the sins of the heart (lust, hate, covetousness). Loving God and our neighbor from the heart (not just lip service), fulfills the law. It goes beyond the law. It is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So, if you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT UNDER THE LAW. The simplicity of Gal_5:8 is an understatement. Does your Bible say that you ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW if you are being led by the Spirit?
Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat_22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat_22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.

Axehead
 

Raeneske

New Member
Sep 18, 2012
716
19
0
Axehead said:
And where does the Scripture teach the Christian to tithe? Please show me where Jesus and the Apostles teach this.

The OFFERINGS of Malachi are not money but rather the sacrifices which the NT declares have ended.
""Christ is of the order of Melchizedek, and Christ is our High Priest today. That being the case, is it not written that "Abraham paid a faithful tithe to Melchizedek; (Gen. 14:17-20) and Jacob promised to pay tithe of all, even if he received only food and raiment. (Gen. 28:20-22) Those who belong to the great household of faith and are children of Abraham, will "do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39) They will pay a faithful tithe for the support of those who, like the Levitical priests, give their lives for the advancement of Christ's kingdom upon the earth. Just as the priest lived "of the things of the temple,...even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." (1 Cor 9:9-14)" -The cross and its shadow"

1 Corinthians 9:13, "Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?"

How do the Pastors live, who don't have a 9 to 5, who are the ones to spend most of their time in God's word, prayer, studying scripture? If the church is unfaithful, they harm the ministry. Not only do they harm the ministry, but they are found robbing God.

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Must they get a 9 to 5, and must the ministry of God be harmed, by the churches refusal to tithe? The gospel message doesn’t spread. And whose fault is that?
 

soupy

Member
May 20, 2012
124
2
18
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Raeneske said:
""
How do the Pastors live, who don't have a 9 to 5, who are the ones to spend most of their time in God's word, prayer, studying scripture? If the church is unfaithful, they harm the ministry. Not only do they harm the ministry, but they are found robbing God.

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Must they get a 9 to 5, and must the ministry of God be harmed, by the churches refusal to tithe? The gospel message doesn’t spread. And whose fault is that?
Many Believers who do not believe tithing is for today, give as cheerful givers.
The church receives many contributions from faithful givers, just not under the law of tithing. The ministry of god is not harmed, God is not robbed.
 

Raeneske

New Member
Sep 18, 2012
716
19
0
soupy said:
Many Believers who do not believe tithing is for today, give as cheerful givers.
The church receives many contributions from faithful givers, just not under the law of tithing. The ministry of god is not harmed, God is not robbed.
Are you %100 sure about that?

God is robbed, and the ministry is harmed, this is a fact of life. The "give no tithe" movement stifles the work of God. And is this a surprise? The enemy of souls is doing all he can to shut up the truth in these last days... I digress.

Compare the tithe money, to the cheerful givers. So which is weightier, and then tell me if God is being robbed or not.
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
soupy said:
Many Believers who do not believe tithing is for today, give as cheerful givers.
The church receives many contributions from faithful givers, just not under the law of tithing. The ministry of god is not harmed, God is not robbed.
Amen, soupy. The NT is about Giving not Payment (Tax system).

Someone asked me what I thought about Hebrews 7 and Melchizedek and the fact the Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek?

This goes to the heart of the matter. This is not so much about tithing as it is about setting people free to enjoy the reality of Jesus Christ. Wrong doctrines nullify the finished work of Christ in a Believer's life and prevent him/her from really entering into spiritual union with Him. You can't be truly "In Christ" when you are observing laws, no matter how innocent they may be. Read on and you will understand.

Tithing has nothing to do with the New Covenant way of living. It is a carnal religious doctrine that keeps God's people from really knowing and experiencing what "In Christ" means. "In Christ" is our new way of living and not by rules and regulations.

Part of the error comes from not considering when the Old Covenant ended and when the New Covenant began. When Jesus referred to tithing, the Law was still in effect. It didn't end until he died on the cross. Jesus was living during the Law and speaking to people who were under the Law.

Actually, Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with tithing in the New Covenant. Tithing is only mentioned as part of a comparison between the Melchizedek and the Levitical priesthood to show us how far superior a priest Jesus is.

The book of Hebrews proclaims the superiority of the New Covenant. It says we have a better rest (4:1-13), better hope (7:19), better covenant (7:22)(8:6), better promises (8:6), better sacrifices (9:23), better substance (10:34), better country (11:16), better resurrection (11:35), and better outcome of our faith (11:40).

It shows that Jesus has a better name (1:4) and better blood (12:24), and that we now have a better cleansing of sin, a better conscience (9:14), and a better relationship with God, entering the true holy place in the heavenly realm.

This is what Hebrews 7 is all about! Showing us by tying into all the other "better" verses, that we do indeed have a far better (superior) Priest in Jesus Christ. The verses above, are all from Hebrews.

Hebrews chapter 7 is showing us that Jesus is a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant. The Holy Spirit proves to us first that Melchizedek was a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant.

Let's look at Abraham and the tithe that he gave. What are some characteristics of this tithe and was it habitual.

1. First of all, there is no scriptural evidence that God told him to give it.

2. God's original promise and eventual covenant with Abraham was based on faith, alone. Nothing to do with tithing.

3. No where in Scripture did God instruct Abraham to give a tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek.

4. No where in Scripture did God ever instruct Abraham to give any tithe.

5. Abraham was already incredibly rich and he was not made rich by giving a tithe to Melchizedek.

6. When Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek, it was the only time that he ever gave a tithe.

7. The scriptures do not mention anywhere that Abraham ever gave another tithe the rest of his life.

8. The tithe that Abraham gave cost him nothing. It was on the spoils of the battle. It was not part of his personal possessions or the increase of his flocks and herds.

9. God's fulfillment to Abraham did not include a condition of tithing. God made Abraham rich in fulfillment of his promise alone, without any kind of tithing or giving.

10. Christian's have said that Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is God's pattern for Christians in the New Covenant. There is no where in Scripture where this is stated.

11. Tithing had absolutely nothing to do with God fulfilling his promise to Abraham to make him a great nation, bless him, make his name great and that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. It was never mentioned except with Melchizedek and Abraham chose to do that only out of his spoils.

Abraham believed what God said and acted on it. There were no works involved.

12. God made Abraham rich on the basis of faith alone. Tithing was not the reason for Abraham's prosperity.

Folks, from Genesis to Revelation, God has never been in debt to man and He never will. Our relationship with Him is based on faith alone. We approach Him and love Him, on faith alone. And He rewards us and blesses us on Faith alone. He causes our soul to be fat (prosperous). His grace is far beyond any natural comprehension we can attain.

When you read the Bible you realize that information about the most important things in God's economy are not held back from us. They are revealed. Anything as important as an eternal, universal law of tithing would have been clearly communicated and not left to us to fumble about and figure out. However, the opposite is true. It is not plainly laid out as a NT ordinance of God.

Tithers argue that Jesus is both king and priest and is therefore due a tithe. Jesus is certainly worthy of a tithe and much more, but his kingdom and priesthood are not based on the tithe. The tithe has no place in it. Everything about tithing is inferior to New Covenant life in Christ.

Jesus' call to us is not a 10% commitment. His call is absolute abandonment and commitment of all things to Him.

Jesus requires us to forsake all, to give all, and to use all for the accomplishment of his purposes.

Interestingly, He gives (entrusts) all things to us, and to jointly work with Him in His service and the Holy Spirit is now the leader in all matters and not the tithe, or any law or rules that come from man.

And if the Holy Spirit is the leader in all matters, where does that leave the "clergy"?

Well, that's another story.

I would encourage everyone to read all of Hebrews 7, slowly.

Axehead
 

soupy

Member
May 20, 2012
124
2
18
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Raeneske said:
Are you %100 sure about that?

God is robbed, and the ministry is harmed, this is a fact of life. The "give no tithe" movement stifles the work of God. And is this a surprise? The enemy of souls is doing all he can to shut up the truth in these last days... I digress.

Compare the tithe money, to the cheerful givers. So which is weightier, and then tell me if God is being robbed or not.
I am sure of this in my life and in the life of my church, which teaches tithing is a law, we are not under the law. This is true for many churches, can I ask you, how are you sure others do not give cheerfully and abundantly without a law. Do you not believe others are led by the Spirit to give.
I don't understand your "weightier" term. Regardless, I don't believe tithing is for today, so I don't compare which is better, I search my Scriptures for how to live my life and am led to be a cheerful giver. Please explain how God is robbed and it is a fact of life?
 

Raeneske

New Member
Sep 18, 2012
716
19
0
soupy said:
I am sure of this in my life and in the life of my church, which teaches tithing is a law, we are not under the law. This is true for many churches, can I ask you, how are you sure others do not give cheerfully and abundantly without a law. Do you not believe others are led by the Spirit to give.
I don't understand your "weightier" term. Regardless, I don't believe tithing is for today, so I don't compare which is better, I search my Scriptures for how to live my life and am led to be a cheerful giver. Please explain how God is robbed and it is a fact of life?
By the simple fact that the "There is no tithe" movement going around, and the prophet Malachi asked, "Will a man rob God?", it is proof that a man will rob God, especially in these last days.

If your church pays the tithe -- more than the tithe, which is the tithe plus love offerings -- then good for them. Offerings in abundance, and faithfully paying duty to the Lord.
 

soupy

Member
May 20, 2012
124
2
18
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree with you that some deny tithing to keep money for themselves, I know some will rob God, some will cheat God, but this discussion is not about that.
As others have said and I agree, the law of tithing is not for today, it is not about robbing God, it is about what is the Bible telling us. Everything I have is from my Lord, I give, use all my money knowing this. One can be a cheerful giver giving more than 10%, denying the law is not denying giving.

I am not aware of a "no tithe movement", I read and study my Bible for decisions in my life.
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
Malachi_3:8-12 DOES NOT TEACH TITHING AS IT IS TAUGHT TODAY!! And you are making the same mistake that preachers who manipulate and terrorize people do...reading into the passage and not considering the context. And they say that if "you rob God He will not rebuke the devourer for your sake." You know, we live in a world that is phony as a 3 dollar bill where everyone is trying to take advantage of their fellow man. The last thing the people of God need is to come to church and be fleeced again (taken advantage again).

You only rob someone when you are under a law of a payment/tax system and something is owed. You don't rob anyone when anything you give should come as "you purpose in your heart". In other words, when you freely choose to give.



This scripture in Malachi has to be the scripture that is most often used for the topic of tithing. It also happens to be the most misunderstood and misinterpreted passed in the Bible.





Words have meaning, but today a different meaning has been given to words. Two people can use the same words, but are not conveying the same meaning. But not everyone uses sound principles of biblical interpretation.






Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.


Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.


Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.





To see Malachi 3:8-12 in its context, we must look at chapter 4, verse 4.





Mal 4:4 - Remember ye the law of Moses my servant...with the statutes and judgments.





All through Malachi's message to Israel, he was imploring them to return to a pure practice of the Law. One part of his message was for the people to fulfill the laws of tithes and offerings.





The first thing we need to observe is this: The practice of paying tithes was an important part of the Law of Moses.





Do you know and understand this?? WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES!





One of the major doctrines of the New Testament is that we are no longer under the LAW.





Paul ran into many that were trying to put new Christians under the Law of Moses, but Paul and other writers of the NT made it very clear that the Law has no jurisdiction over Believers in Jesus Christ -- WHO was the fulfillment of the Law.





Tithes and Offerings were such a big part of the Law that we would have to have some very clear teachings in the NT that these were not included in arguments against the Law. And, in fact, no such teachings were given and cannot be found in the NT. There are only 3 verses that mention tithes in the NT (not very many for such a MAJOR topic). And not one of them is advocating a system of tithes that should be practiced by New Testament Believers.





What Did Malachi Mean When He said, "Tithes and Offerings"?





Modern preachers never mention to you that there are 3 tithes in Malachi and what Malachi was referring to. That is why the word is plural (tithes). There were 3 different purposes and 3 different ways that they were carried out. The word "offerings" is also in the plural and refers to 7 types of offerings, each having a specific purpose and a specific ritual that must be carried out.





I am not going to write all this out, but I will give you the references and you can look them up.





Three Different Tithes:


1. To the Levites for Their Maintenance. Numbers_18:21,24


2. For the Lord's Feasts and Sacrifices. Deuteronomy_14:22-26


3. Every Third Year a Tithe for the Poor. Deuteronomy_14:28,29





Some people debate whether there were 2 or 3 tithes, but I see these three.





What did Malachi have in mind when he said "offerings"? Did he have someone's personal income above and beyond 10% in mind?

No, there were 7 different offerings.





Seven Different Offerings: (Using Zondervan Bible Dictionary)





1. Sin Offering - First mentioned at the consecration of Aaron, Exodus 29:10 and was a special expiatory sacrifice. A bullock was killed before the bronze altar and on its horns part of the sacrificial blood was smeared. The remainder was dashed against the base of the altar and the fat burned ceremonially. The flesh and skin were taken outside the tabernacle and burned separately. The Law of Sin Offering: (Lev. 4:1-35; 6:24-30, etc) provided for acts of unconscious transgression, mistakes or other inadvertences. No atonement could be made for deliberate rebellion against the covenant and its provisions (Num 15:30). the worshiper normally laid his hand on the head of the sin offering, symbolically designating it as his substitute in the sacrificial ritual. Poor people were permitted to offer two turtle-doves or a small amount of fine flour. The flesh that remained after portions had been burned belonged to the priest and was eaten in the sanctuary precincts. (Lev 5:13). A special sin offering for the Nation took place annually on the Day of Atonement. A bullock and goat were sacrificed and their blood ceremonially smeared on the mercy-seat. Another goat was driven into the wilderness after symbolic transfer of communal sin (Lev 16:1-28).





2. Trespass Offering - (Lev 5:14-6:7), or guilt offering, signified expiation and restitution and availed for inadvertent offenses, false swearing and improper dealings with a neighbor. By itself the offering made atonement towards God, but an additional one-fifth was required as a fine to compensate a neighbor adequately. The sacrificial ritual involved the slaughter of a ram, and was similar to that of the sin offering, although the imposition of hands and the sprinkling of blood in the holy places were not mentioned. Special offerings were required for the cleansing of a leper (Lev 14:12-20) and a defiled Nazirite (Num 6:12). All guilt offerings belonged to the priests and were most sacred in character.





3. Peace Offering - Symbolized right spiritual relations with God, and was among the earliest of the sacrificial offerings. The worshiper, if an ordinary Israelite, coud bring a bullock, a lamb or a goat, male or female and the ritual followed that of the sin-offering (Lev 3:1-17). If the worshiper was a priest the fatty portions of the animal were removed and burned on the altar of God, while the blood was sprinkled at the base of the sacrificial altar. The ritual for a goat followed that laid down for a bullock.





4. Meal Offering - Or meat offering (KJV), was instituted when Aaron and his sons were consecrated (Exod 29:41). It was forbidden to be offered on the altar of incense (Exod 30:9), but was used when the tabernacle was completed (Exod 40:29), and invariably accompanied the morning and evening burnt offerings. The ordinary Israelite was required to bring a mixture of fine flour, oil and frankincense prepared in a variety of ways (Lev 2:1-16), but without the addition of leaven or honey. All cereal offerings were to be seasoned with salt. The ritual for a priestly offerer required him to remove a token handful and burn it together with oil and frankincense as a memorial on the altar. What was left was most holy, and became priestly property.





5. Drink Offering - Or libations were common in the patriarchal period (Gen 28:18; 35:14) and accompanied many of the sacrifices (Exod 29:40). they could not be poured upon the golden altar of incense (Exod 30:9) and were required as an accompaniment of all freewill and votive offerings (Num 28:9) and other established feasts (Num 28:14-31; 29:6-39). The reference in Deut 32:38 indicates that dring offerings were common features of heathen cultic rituals. Oil and wine, used separately or as a mixture, constituted the normal libation.





6. Wave Offering - One part of the ritual associated with the Peace offering





7. Heave Offering - offering involved the wave and heave offerings. Both were apparently inititiated at the consecration of the Aaronic priesthood (Exod 29:24-28).





Well, if you were able to get through this ( I found it interesting ) then you will have seen that most Christians know very little about the Law with its ceremonial requirements. Because if they did, they would reject the New Testament Law of Tithes and Offerings.





Malachi's hearers understood what he was talking about. They knew he was referring to a complex SYSTEM of tithes and offerings.



It is intellectually dishonest to equate or maybe I should say, REDUCE Malachi's words to simply mean "Ten Percent of your income is the tithe and anything above is the offering" but this is the mantra in modern Christendom.





There is no scriptural basis to change the meaning of those words and no justification for putting NT Christians under the burden of the LAW by telling them that they are REQUIRED to PAY. Of course, the modern "payment" system is all couched in sermons on "GIVING".



FACTS:





1. Deut 14:24-25 shows that TITHES have nothing to do with MONEY.



2. The OFFERINGS of Malachi are the sacrifices which the NT declares have ended.

Axehead
 

John_8:32

New Member
Nov 9, 2012
248
12
0
Axehead said:
And where does the Scripture teach the Christian to tithe? Please show me where Jesus and the Apostles teach this.
Well alrighty then...

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here Jesus Christ plainly says not to leave tithing undone.

The OFFERINGS of Malachi are not money but rather the sacrifices which the NT declares have ended.
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

The word tithes here is...

H4643
מעשׂרה מעשׂר מעשׂר
ma‛ăśêr ma‛ăśar ma‛aśrâh
mah-as-ayr', mah-as-ar', mah-as-raw'
From H6240; a tenth; especially a tithe: - tenth (part), tithe (-ing).

it means one tenth or ten percent. The tithe was 1/10 of your increase, the tenth one to pass under the rod.

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

And there are conditions by which you can turn it into money. Since there is no temple currently and the priesthood is now the Melchizidek priesthood, we have no way to take livestock to the priests. OK then...

Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
John_8:32 said:
Well alrighty then...

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here Jesus Christ plainly says not to leave tithing undone.
You forget that Jesus was born under the law and was speaking to people under the law. But, He was only contrasting to the Pharisees that in their works of keeping the letter of the law, they omit the weightier matters of the law. But the letter of the law can be played with and the Pharisees were very adept at doing that and getting around the matters of the heart. That is why Jesus said that their cup looked good on the outside but was filthy within.

If Tithing were such a major New Covenant doctrine then there would be ample and straightforward comments about it in the New Testament. But the NT is completely silent on the matter. And so it should be. We don't serve a "payment system". We are not led by rules and regulations but by the Spirit. Jesus actually exposed the Pharisees on their own payment system by admitting they were faithful to tithe, but not faithful to give from the heart when real needs were evident. Needs requiring love and mercy. The Pharisees hid behind the letter of the law so that they wouldn't have to get their "hands dirty" and stoop to help someone in real need. Jesus was right! They are of their father the devil and they do the works of their father.

John_8:32 said:
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

The word tithes here is...

H4643
מעשׂרה מעשׂר מעשׂר
ma‛ăśêr ma‛ăśar ma‛aśrâh
mah-as-ayr', mah-as-ar', mah-as-raw'
From H6240; a tenth; especially a tithe: - tenth (part), tithe (-ing).

it means one tenth or ten percent. The tithe was 1/10 of your increase, the tenth one to pass under the rod.

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

And there are conditions by which you can turn it into money. Since there is no temple currently and the priesthood is now the Melchizidek priesthood, we have no way to take livestock to the priests. OK then...

Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
I have already dealt with the misuse of Malachi 3:8 by supposedly New Covenant preachers that use it to manipulate people into their "payment/tax" system. Post #49.

Axehead
 

Trumpeter

New Member
Mar 6, 2013
332
3
0
Alberta, Canada
Many ministers today will tell you that you are sinning by not obeying in giving tithes to the church. But no one can tithe as instructed in the scriptures. It's literally impossible. This teaching will go over the four basic types of tithes as mentioned in the scriptures. However, it must be understood that all tithes were intended for either the Priests, Levites or simply brought to the temple for other purposes. Since there is no Priests, Levites or temple in existence today, biblically speaking, you can't tithe. Watch this teaching to learn more!

http://www.119ministries.com/videoteachings.aspx?viewcontentpageguid=fa666c64-eb06-414f-91b4-701e64a48eab&parentnavigationid=28668
 

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise
Jul 13, 2013
1,048
63
0
TJM said:
Hi,

I just signed up for ths forum and have a question about tithing. To clarify up front, I'm aware of another thread discussing whether or not tithing is required. I started reading that with interest. But, my question assumes that God directs us to tithe and I am asking about further guidance.

Having recently relocated to begin a new job, I am looking for a church. I visited two churches and will probably visit a couple others before settling upon one. In the meantime, I’m sitting on a stack of God’s money.

While I attend worship at local churches, and the offering comes around, my understanding is that most visitors are not expected to give a tithe. The church asks that you drop in a new member form, or something similar, that has your contact information. I do put in some cash, but not nearly 10%. This is because I feel a sense of responsibility for the money that God has entrusted me with. I ruled out one of the churches and do not feel comfortable giving the money to them. I do not want to just hand money over blindly because I happened to have attended a particular church on a particular day. So, God’s money is accumulating in my bank account. And with every passing week I am more and more aware that He did not give this to me to simply let it sit there.

It appears that there are 3 options for what I can do in the meantime.

a) Continue holding the money until I find a new church, keeping it segregated from my checking account, and then pass on the full accumulation to whichever church I join.

B) Tithe every Sunday, even if I do not ultimately join the particular church that I attend on that particular Sunday.

c) Use the money to advance God’s work in other ways, such as donating it to Christian charities that feed the poor and shelter the homeless, to Christian ministries whose radio programs I have learned from for years, or use the money to do good deeds.

Is there any guidance in scripture for tithing while one is church searching? My understanding of scripture leads me to rule out option ( B). I am leaning more toward (c ). But I am certainly interested in any insights from scripture that others may have to offer.
I am going to quote an excerpt from my commentary "Hard Questions About Christianity".

11. Are members of churches required to give 10% of their income to their churches?

Regarding the correct answer to the above question, there is no universal consensus. Plenty of pastors say that tithing is mandatory, but, as one pastor has stated, the New Testament does not explicitly command the tithe.

The Bible’s tithing laws are a part of the Torah (a.k.a. Laws of Moses). When the Old Testament prophet Malachi wrote about tithing, he was reminding the Jews that the Torah required them to tithe. The tithe was required in order to provide food to the Levites and to people trapped in poverty (Deuteronomy 26:12).

In Acts 15 the Apostles decree that Gentiles are not required to adhere to the Torah, and modern church members are usually Gentiles. Some pastors claim that the Apostles were talking about “ceremonial” Law, not the entire Law, and that the “ceremonial” Law does not include the tithing laws. This reasoning is flawed. In Acts 15 the entire Torah was discussed, not just a part of it. Indeed the word “ceremonial” is not mentioned in Acts 15. The Apostles' decree about the Torah includes the Torah’s tithing laws. Indeed, in Acts 15 the Apostles state exactly what things are required of Gentiles, and tithing is not one of those things.

Even if it were not mandatory for people to give 10% of their income to their churches, it is right and good and necessary to contribute financially to one's church and to people in poverty. We see this lesson in the actions of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 4:32-37). There the followers of Jesus pooled their financial resources so that none of them would lack the necessities of life. Also, in 1 Corinthians 16:1-4 the Apostle Paul mentions a collection being taken up for the poor believers in Jerusalem. This money, which was collected each Sunday, was used to provide the necessities of life for believers in Jerusalem who were being persecuted for their faith.

So how much should people give to their churches? People are encouraged to give 10% (or more if they can afford it) so long as doing so does not result in them being unable to provide life’s necessities for themselves and their families. Jesus warned against declaring necessary funds as “Corban” and thus depriving one’s family of the necessities of life (Mark 7:9-13). Remember, according to the Torah, the purpose of tithing is to provide people with physical food (Deuteronomy 26:12). To deprive one’s family of necessities in order to support a church is to contradict the biblical purpose of tithing.

Perhaps it would be best if we follow the Apostle Paul's instructions about giving: “Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

It should be noted that plenty of pastors disagree with what is said here about tithing, and their words should not be easily dismissed. We should avoid creating an unnecessary division over something that is not essential to salvation. Besides, plenty of people can afford to contribute 10% of their money, but they don’t because they are more interested in promoting their fleshly desires than in promoting the kingdom of God.

If the tithe is being used for its biblical purpose, then the tithe should not be a problem for anyone. Whether or not pastors will talk about the biblical purpose is an altogether different issue.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Should churches be required to be transparent about the money they collect from tithes?
 

soupy

Member
May 20, 2012
124
2
18
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
aspen2 said:
Should churches be required to be transparent about the money they collect from tithes?
What level of transparency are you envisioning, the amount, the giver, both?
Transparent to whom?
What do you mean by required, what is the requirement of the church to whom?
 

[email protected]

Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
1,635
127
63
West Central Florida
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
TJM said:
Hi,

I just signed up for ths forum and have a question about tithing. To clarify up front, I'm aware of another thread discussing whether or not tithing is required. I started reading that with interest. But, my question assumes that God directs us to tithe and I am asking about further guidance.

Having recently relocated to begin a new job, I am looking for a church. I visited two churches and will probably visit a couple others before settling upon one. In the meantime, I’m sitting on a stack of God’s money.

While I attend worship at local churches, and the offering comes around, my understanding is that most visitors are not expected to give a tithe. The church asks that you drop in a new member form, or something similar, that has your contact information. I do put in some cash, but not nearly 10%. This is because I feel a sense of responsibility for the money that God has entrusted me with. I ruled out one of the churches and do not feel comfortable giving the money to them. I do not want to just hand money over blindly because I happened to have attended a particular church on a particular day. So, God’s money is accumulating in my bank account. And with every passing week I am more and more aware that He did not give this to me to simply let it sit there.

It appears that there are 3 options for what I can do in the meantime.

a) Continue holding the money until I find a new church, keeping it segregated from my checking account, and then pass on the full accumulation to whichever church I join.

B) Tithe every Sunday, even if I do not ultimately join the particular church that I attend on that particular Sunday.

c) Use the money to advance God’s work in other ways, such as donating it to Christian charities that feed the poor and shelter the homeless, to Christian ministries whose radio programs I have learned from for years, or use the money to do good deeds.

Is there any guidance in scripture for tithing while one is church searching? My understanding of scripture leads me to rule out option ( B). I am leaning more toward (c ). But I am certainly interested in any insights from scripture that others may have to offer.
I am sick and tired of hearing about FREE salvation and then being expected to pay a religious tax for the rest of my life.

Tithing has nothing to do with the Christian religion except for maintenance of a venue where prayer can be held.

There is NO teaching in the New Testament about it other than voluntary contributions to a guest speaker or charitable donations to support a church community fallen on hard times.

I am sick and tired of sitting in a church where a worship service is merely a forum for commercial messages - bankers taking a part of worship time to pitch their financial investment products, elders speaking about another pledge drive(*) for money to develop obsolete ministries, or for a new church bond issue (the interest from which you'll owe 10% 'tithe'). One would think these greedy money grabbing schemes were concocted by a bunch of Jews (don't get mad at my reference - READ the book of Titus - chapter 1).

Tithing is nothing more than a scheme to justify a religious tax. It isn't even found in the Old Testament.

Where did tithing come from anyway? Do you know?

Emperor Constantine was converted to Christianity when he saw a vision of God. When he took his vows to follow Christ the church suddenly became an institution replete with luxurious venues, a salaried priestly class and restricted access to the Word of God. The first century pattern of home churches and community venues passed away into history.

How do you maintain this exorbitant religious life style for the holier than thou upper crust rulership? You charge a religious tax and invent all sort of 'spiritual' gimmicks to funnel in all the money they need and want. The middle ages was the golden era for this sort of con job. To this day there is a lot of money to be made in the god racket. Atheists and gays recognize this simple fact while Christians deny it. A position as a religious leader (who has no religion himself/herself) is now recognized by all major denominations as a valid career path. And THAT'S WHY the church is in the mess it's in today.

But let the reader continue to do what he or she enjoys doing - writing checks to support a debauched and apostate church. You have that right, but do not continue to delude yourself that it's going to the glory of God - because it isn't.

"There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey. They have devoured lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in the midst of her."
Ezekiel 22:25

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Pledge drives are not scriptural. Have you not read where the Bible says NOT to make financial promises, but to simply say 'yes' or 'no'?
 

[email protected]

Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
1,635
127
63
West Central Florida
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Axehead said:
I like everything you said, except this: "Use your wallet as a lever to influence church policy."

If we don't like to be manipulated, then we should not turn around and use our money to manipulate or control, either. We influence others through prayer, living righteously and speaking the truth, not by employing their manipulative devices.

But that's just me hollering from "outside the camp". Heb 13:13
It's not a question of manipulation. Withholding or granting a donation is a tool for exerting influence.

When a person visits a church he or she may consider whether or not they wish to join. We are told that one of the reasons for becoming a member is to allow us to vote on business issues. Isn't writing a check or dropping a bill into an offering basket the same thing?

Whether you acknowledge it or not, donations are a powerful goad to action.

With regard to membership, it should also be noted that the Bible says a man should not make promises to deliver money or to back a loan for someone else. Yet churches ask us to do exactly that very thing. is this Biblical teaching or is it financial manipulation? Why is it wrong to want to hold the money you've earned and ok for church leaders to demand what is not theirs? Jesus taught that giving should be cheerful. He never said it was to be an obligation or that one should assume such an obligation. Our Lord certainly never demanded a percentage. Yet church leaders do it all the time.

Money is where truth meets the road. Much Biblical truth has been swept away by those who seek to grasp that which does not belong to them.

That which God has given to you is for you to distribute. It's a private thing between God and you is it not? Neither I nor any pretended religious leader has any right to demand more or less of us than God would ask. For liberty Christ has set us free. Therefore do not allow yourselves to become bond servants.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Open up the New Testament and count. Jesus talks about money more than salvation. He addressed the topic more than heaven and hell combined. Where we put our money, which is in reality on us as stewardship from God, matters. You can summarize much of the teaching of Jesus on money by simply saying that one puts their money where their mouth is.

Why in the world would the sovereign God of the universe command us in everything but money. He wouldn't, thus he talks about it as much as anything else in his earthly ministry. It is a measure of obedience. It's not about hitting some 10% magic mark to store up enough treasure in heaven. It's about believing the gospel enough that we'll take our money and put in a potentially compromising spot to help advance the gospel rather than our own coffers.

With that said, it does not negate that we are to be responsible stewards who know where the money is going. There's not an excuse to let it knowingly purchase some man or woman a private jet and luxury items.

To answer Aspen's query, the church should share what's being done with the money. The pastor's salary is up for debate, and IMHO is not the biggest issue, but one can discern pretty quickly where the money is going on a reasonable balance sheet. That said, it's not my business what my neighbor donates, and vice versa.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Born_Again

JimParker

Active Member
Mar 31, 2015
396
39
28
Las Vegas, NV
There is no New Testament teaching that Christians are required to tithe. (When Jesus talked about tithing, He was talking to Jews under the Law of Moses BEFORE the establishment of the New Covenant.)

Paul gives the definitive NT teaching on giving:

2Co 9:6-7: But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Of necessity means, "because you are under the law."

But, if you want to follow the Law of Moses, it says:

Deu 14:22-29
You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.


So the Law of Moses says:
(1) Take your tithe to Jerusalem and spend it on anything you want and rejoice before the Lord. (Take a vacation and throw a big party. Bring your Levite and his family along.)
(2) Every third year, bring the tithe to a central storehouse in your community where it can be distributed to the widows, orphans, aliens, and Levites. (That would be a Jewish priest)

Is that what your pastor preaches? I've never heard anyone who preaches tithing preach from that specific passage that spells out how to tithe. They seem to go straight to, "Will you rob God!?" which is the question a Hebrew prophet asked Jews who were still under the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant. They ain't us.

The tithe has become the Protestant version of the indulgence. :)

What do we tell someone who takes home $200 a week and it costs them $200 a week to feed his family? Sould we tell him to take $40 from what he would have spent to feed his children and give it to the pastor?

If the tithe is supposed to feed the widow, orphan, alien and Levite, shouldn't the church be feeding widows, orphans and aliens? (Assumng the Christian, not-a-Levite, pastor gets the Levite's share of the tithe.)

Give what you can. If you can only give 2%, then do so. If you can give 90%, then do so. BUT: not for bigger buildings and sound equipment and hi-tech, multi-media hardware. People all over the world need clean water, seed for crops, food, clothing, shelter, etc. The church does just fine without the latest and greatest gear for the Sunday "show" in countries where people get murdered for the Name of Jesus.

MERCY not law.

IMHO :rolleyes:

jim
 
  • Like
Reactions: Axehead