Is it Love or Serve or Obeying ?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But even so, love is it's own word with its own meaning. Serve has its own meaning, and obey has it's own meaning.

I think I see the point of the thread, to say that if we love God we obey Him, if we love our brother we will serve him.

But we can't just go around trying to re-write the Greek language.

Words have meanings. Without that, yoiu just pretend the Bible says whatever you want it to say.

Love in Christ,
Mark

God is perfect, but language is imperfect. If we spend all of our time dissecting words, we run into these imperfections, yet fail to recognize them. Jesus tells us that the sum of the law is love - He tells us how to love through obedience to God and service to our neighbors - in other words we are not supposed to sit around feeling nice thoughts about God and our neighbors we are called to action. Pretty basic! We are the ones who try to make each word magical and practically adore different angles and perspectives from each dot and tittle.......too bad we do not spend half as much time practicing our sanctification by developing skills like sympathy / perspective taking / empathy / unconditional love / forgiveness.

I really think Reductionism is the heresy of our day.........
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
I'm just saying its enough to read the Bible as it is without needing to redefine the words.

Love obeys, but love and obedience are different things. Love is a lot more than just thinking nice thoughts, and its also more than obedience too.

Anyway, nothing I really want to debate.

And I agree, better to spend our time developing . . . adding to our faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge self control, and to self control perserverance, and to perserverance, piety, and to piety brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love, the perfect bond of unity.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm just saying its enough to read the Bible as it is without needing to redefine the words.

Love obeys, but love and obedience are different things. Love is a lot more than just thinking nice thoughts, and its also more than obedience too.

Anyway, nothing I really want to debate.

And I agree, better to spend our time developing . . . adding to our faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge self control, and to self control perserverance, and to perserverance, piety, and to piety brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love, the perfect bond of unity.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Sorry - I am just recently bothered by this tendency to get lost in the minutia of linguistics and then act as if it is evidence of our faith in Christ and our reputation as a mature Christian........all the while, continually missing the larger meaning of the gospel.

I am not saying you are doing this, btw - I am just sensitive to the problem, right now.
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Sorry - I am just recently bothered by this tendency to get lost in the minutia of linguistics and then act as if it is evidence of our faith in Christ and our reputation as a mature Christian........all the while, continually missing the larger meaning of the gospel.

I am not saying you are doing this, btw - I am just sensitive to the problem, right now.

No worries! I completely understand!

And there is a very real concern:

2 Timothy 2:14 "Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers."

Love in Christ,
Mark
 
  • Like
Reactions: aspen
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
mark s,

But even so, love is it's own word with its own meaning. Serve has its own meaning, and obey has it's own meaning.

I think I see the point of the thread, to say that if we love God we obey Him, if we love our brother we will serve him.

But we can't just go around trying to re-write the Greek language.

Words have meanings. Without that, yoiu just pretend the Bible says whatever you want it to say.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I think that was done in right will.

You may look below and think of reasoning of the words love and obedience.

2 John 1:6

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Obedience is doing the commands of God. Above was shown "that we walk after his commandments".

So from that the word love has the same meaning as obedience or obeying.

2 John 1:6

And this is obedience, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

In 2 John 1:5 below you may think the word love was used. And in translating 2 John 1:5 a person may look at the definition of agapaō.

2 John 1:5

And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

G25
ἀγaπάω
agapaō
Thayer Definition:
1) of persons
1a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
2a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps from agan (much) [or compare G5368]
Citing in TDNT: 1:21, 5

So partly from "to entertain" of the definitions above the word serve may be used in 2 John 1:5.

2 John 1:5

And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we serve one another.

To serve one another how God wants, a person must obey God's commands.

Romans 13:

9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 13:

9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Serve your neighbor as yourself."
10 Obeying does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore obeying is the fulfillment of the law.

Next you may compare below definitions of agapē from Thayer's Greek Definitions.

G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
Thayer Definition:
1) brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
2) love feasts
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G25
Citing in TDNT: 1:21, 5



____________________________________________________________________________________



justaname,


ἀγaπάω impf. ἠγάπων; fut. ἀγaπήσω; 1 aor. ἠγάπησa; pf. ἠγάπηκa, ptc. ἠγaπηκώς; plpf. 3 sg. ἠγaπήκει Je. 2:25. Pass.: 1 fut. ἀγaπηθήσομaι; 1 aor. 2 sg. ἠγaπήθης Sir 47:16; pf. ptc. ἠγaπημένος (in var. mngs. Hom.+.—STromp de Ruiter, Gebruik en beteekenis van ἀγaπᾶν in de Grieksche Litteratuur 1930; CRichardson, Love: Gk. and Christian, JR 23, ’43,173–85).
to have a warm regard for and interest in another, cherish, have affection for, love
Thats from BDAG


ἀγaπάω
a love: 25.43​
b show love: 25.44
c take pleasure in: 25.104

This from Louw-Nida

I think that was done in right will.

You may look at post #25 of this topic, the post which was to mark s and look at more of my reasoning of the use of the words love, serve and obeying.
 

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,583
123
0
Sorry - I am just recently bothered by this tendency to get lost in the minutia of linguistics and then act as if it is evidence of our faith in Christ and our reputation as a mature Christian........all the while, continually missing the larger meaning of the gospel.

-- I could not agree more.

I cannot begin to count the number of times I have been having a discussion with another Christian and after sharing a scripture with them they come up with, "but in the Ancient Greek, the meaning is actually...."
or "The older Latin texts actually translate it as...."
or "If you read it in the original Klingon..."

When you ask if they translated it themselves or heard it from someone else, it is always another person or a different source.
When you ask then if they have studied ancient Greek themselves, the answer is invariably 'no.' (My favorite is the person who took the online course)
When you ask them to reference where they got that information, more often than not it is a web site which - surprise - just so happens to support their viewpoint on the topic at hand.

If the BIble is indeed God breathed then he is going to ensure that the intended meaning is going to come through.
Especially if you are seeking the assistance of the Holy Spirit when studying Scripture.

What I have found is that when those who actually know the language do further digging, the word or phrase may actually enhance the meaning that is found in the current translation or slighly tweak it in order to expand the meaning - NOT CHANGE THE MEANING COMPLETELY.

But again, I rely on those that have actually studied Greek (or Latin, or Aramaic). Not those who have taken one semester of Greek and then become an Internet expert.
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
12
18
Foreigner, if one must depend on the Holy Spirit with the dependency that you ephasize, then why the need of our Bibles?
And why is it that you beileve that you and your particular ilk are supposedly gifted with the Holy Spirit alone?
If your meaning of the Bible is so clear , so easily interpreted and if as you write, that the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it rightly, then why are there now over 30,000 different Protestant denominations/ non-denominations causing millions of you Protestants to interpret the Bible differently?
 

JohnnyB

New Member
Aug 8, 2012
131
25
0
West coast, USA
Foreigner, if one must depend on the Holy Spirit with the dependency that you ephasize, then why the need of our Bibles?
And why is it that you beileve that you and your particular ilk are supposedly gifted with the Holy Spirit alone?
If your meaning of the Bible is so clear , so easily interpreted and if as you write, that the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it rightly, then why are there now over 30,000 different Protestant denominations/ non-denominations causing millions of you Protestants to interpret the Bible differently?
Obviously the answer to your question would be denominations are man made because we know there is only one truth - God's, anything else is a lie.

Hebrew 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intetions of the heart.

Do you see, in this verse how the word interpets us? It does not say we interpet the word. Attempting to interpet the word is without a doubt what has caused the saturation of false doctrine.

The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth BUT one must seek Him first with all their hearts, minds and soul.
 
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
People,

I thought to add.


1 Thessalonians 5:

19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt
21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
12
18
Johnny B, The Catholic Church has never split from any other church, so it is not a man-made "denomination".
Also try reading Matt. 18: 15- 18 that church is not any Protestant church because they all were invented by mere-men many, many centuries later. Along with Romans 16: 17-18, 1 Cor. 1: 10.

Thomas Kelly - Don't forget [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ]
 
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
neophyte,

Johnny B, The Catholic Church has never split from any other church, so it is not a man-made "denomination".
Also try reading Matt. 18: 15- 18 that church is not any Protestant church because they all were invented by mere-men many, many centuries later. Along with Romans 16: 17-18, 1 Cor. 1: 10.

Thomas Kelly - Don't forget [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ]

You may agree, the church fathers and the heretics didn't work together to make bibles for Christians.
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
12
18
neophyte,



You may agree, the church fathers and the heretics didn't work together to make bibles for Christians.

Right over my head. It was only the Bishops of the Apostolic/ Catholic Church along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that selected the canonical Books from a maze of many different writings that compile the NT.
 
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
neophyte,

Right over my head. It was only the Bishops of the Apostolic/ Catholic Church along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that selected the canonical Books from a maze of many different writings that compile the NT.

Have you searched for information of who has translated some bibles which may be available ?

Do you think of them as Roman Catholics who should be trusted and people who know all the teachings of The Bible ?
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
12
18
[quote name='Thomas Kelly guessed' timestamp='1345491393' post='162565']
neophyte,



Have you searched for information of who has translated some bibles which may be available ?

Do you think of them as Roman Catholics who should be trusted and people who know all the teachings of The Bible ?
[/quote]

Yes, we need a living teacher to understand the Holy Bible, Jesus appointed the apostles and they their successors [ John 20: 30 ] there are many other things besides the' Bible Alone' [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ] The early Christians learned everything by Tradition, since only later on were some of the teachings of Jesus written down, the last writing being done at the end of the first century. Private interpretation is not permitted by the Bible [ 2 Thess. 1: 7-8 ]
Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write everything down?
Of course the Catholic Church knows the one and only correct interpretation, afterall, it was their Bishops through the Holy Spirit that gave us the completed Bible [ NT ] . They would have known how to correctly interpret the Holy Bible to give us the correct inerrant Books found in the Holy Bible. As St. Jerome once penned: " To be ignorant of Scripture is to be ignorant of Christ ".
 

JohnnyB

New Member
Aug 8, 2012
131
25
0
West coast, USA
Johnny B, The Catholic Church has never split from any other church, so it is not a man-made "denomination".
Also try reading Matt. 18: 15- 18 that church is not any Protestant church because they all were invented by mere-men many, many centuries later. Along with Romans 16: 17-18, 1 Cor. 1: 10.

Thomas Kelly - Don't forget [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ]
Considering a denomination is a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherance to its beliefs and practices then yes, the catholic church is one of those.

A denomination has nothing to do with splitting from another church.
 
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
neophyte,

Yes, we need a living teacher to understand the Holy Bible, Jesus appointed the apostles and they their successors [ John 20: 30 ] there are many other things besides the' Bible Alone' [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ] The early Christians learned everything by Tradition, since only later on were some of the teachings of Jesus written down, the last writing being done at the end of the first century. Private interpretation is not permitted by the Bible [ 2 Thess. 1: 7-8 ]
Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write everything down?
Of course the Catholic Church knows the one and only correct interpretation, afterall, it was their Bishops through the Holy Spirit that gave us the completed Bible [ NT ] . They would have known how to correctly interpret the Holy Bible to give us the correct inerrant Books found in the Holy Bible. As St. Jerome once penned: " To be ignorant of Scripture is to be ignorant of Christ ".

You have been tested and I want to continue my test of you.

Do you think you can disprove the reasoning below using the words of the reasoning below ?


You may look below and think of reasoning of the words love and obedience.

2 John 1:6

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Obedience is doing the commands of God. Above was shown "that we walk after his commandments".

So from that the word love has the same meaning as obedience or obeying.

2 John 1:6

And this is obedience, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

In 2 John 1:5 below you may think the word love was used. And in translating 2 John 1:5 a person may look at the definition of agapaō.

2 John 1:5

And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

G25
ἀγaπάω
agapaō
Thayer Definition:
1) of persons
1a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
2a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps from agan (much) [or compare G5368]
Citing in TDNT: 1:21, 5

So partly from "to entertain" of the definitions above the word serve may be used in 2 John 1:5.

2 John 1:5

And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we serve one another.

You may look below at 1 John 4:20 and think of how the word love is used.

1 John 4:20

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

You may look below and think again of what the meaning of the word love may be shown to be in the bible.

2 John 1:6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

You may look below and think of another translation of 1 John 4:20 and you may think it's logical.

1 John 4:20

Whoever claims to serve God yet neglect a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not serve their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot serve God, whom they have not seen.
 

goodshepard55

New Member
Feb 27, 2011
591
66
0
68
Australian
Thomas may I asked why you think you have the authority to test anyone? Don't you think that is quite off putting to say the least? We are here to learn from one another to post threads that edify God, not to put test or to judge one another.
 
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
Shep,

Thomas may I asked why you think you have the authority to test anyone? Don't you think that is quite off putting to say the least? We are here to learn from one another to post threads that edify God, not to put test or to judge one another.

1 John 4:1

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
 

goodshepard55

New Member
Feb 27, 2011
591
66
0
68
Australian
That is true but what I am questioning is what authority you have to question posters here? As far as I know, no one here is claiming to be a prophet...
 
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
Shep,

That is true but what I am questioning is what authority you have to question posters here? As far as I know, no one here is claiming to be a prophet...

If you think you don't have a message of God, what are you doing here ? Like I said before 1 John 4:1 .


_______________________________________________________________________________________


People,

Obey God, serve man, complete The Law.