Shalom, veteran.
What? No, Jesus was not talking about melted gold and silver in His Olivet Discourse. He was giving us the 7 signs of the very end of this present world. This present world ends with a consuming fire burning man's works off the earth. Jesus and Peter were both pulling from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord" events, a day of desctruction from The Almighty. Apostle Paul was talking about the same day with the "sudden desctruction" of 1 Thess.5. Ashamed you missed all that.
Well, you say one way, I say the other. Let's look at the texts again:
Matthew 24:1-3
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
KJV
Mark 13:1-2
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
KJV
Luke 21:5-6
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
KJV
So, from the contexts of these parallel passages we see that this was said even BEFORE He started with the Olivet Discourse! This was said while they were still in Yerushalayim among the buildings of the Temple grounds! They hadn't even arrived at Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), yet!
This is not about some future destruction of the earth; this is talking about the destruction OF THE TEMPLE!
Shalom, Interceptor and happy (belated) birthday!
...
The Wailing Wall has nothing to do with the prophecy about the stones of the Temple that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:2.
I'm in total agreement with Retrobyter.
Thank you for that.
Now, to Shilohsfoal's three questions, namely, ...
"What age ended with the distruction of the temple?
The temple was destroyed before so what age ended then?
What is so different in Israel today then 2000 years ago?"
...
you responded,
Question 1: The Age of the Mosaic Law or The Old Covenant Age.
Question 2: The Temple was destroyed in 586ish B.C. and there isn't prophecy that said that an age was to end for that event (unless you can demonstrate it with Scripture). However, we do have Scripture with the words of Jesus that expressly states that when the Temple would be destroyed would mark the End of that Age.
Question 3: What's called "Israel" today has nothing to do with the Israel of Scripture. Israel was completely destroyed in A.D. 70. No one today could prove their lineage to which tribe they belong. It was their prophesied "end".
The ages in Scripture are three: the Antediluvian Age (the world before the Flood), the Present Age (the world from the Flood to the Fire), and the Age to Come (the world after the Fire). These are given to us in 2 Peter 3:3-13:
2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
The proof of this is to go through all the passages in Scripture that use the words translated as "age" or "ages" and look up by hand all of the references found. I did this back between 2002 and 2004. When you summarize the results, you will see that "ages" in Scripture are not arbitrary or open to interpretation; they are DEFINITE periods of time that have DEFINITE beginning and ending points! I could show you those results here, but it would be very time (and webpage space) consuming. However, I don't know of just one or two verses that could prove it to you, otherwise. 2 Peter 3:3-13 is the closest thing I found.
Therefore, the correct answers to the questions are...
"What age ended with the distruction of the temple?
The temple was destroyed before so what age ended then?
What is so different in Israel today then 2000 years ago?"
1) No age ended with the destruction of the Second Temple.
2) No age ended with the destruction of the First Temple.
3) There's no Temple today; therefore, there is no localized, center of focus to their worship, which took Judaism out of the realm of the concrete and tangible things and made their worship more abstract and intangible. This, in turn, made Judaism just as susceptible to allegorization as Christianity was in the second and third centuries. The advantage they have is that their dress, their kosher diet, and their observance of yearly, monthly and weekly celebrations and keeping of the Law that they can still keep have kept them from too much abstract thought, particularly the Orthodox Jews.
I agree that 2 Peter 3's Day of the Lord and Heaven and Earth passing away is the same one as described in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus said that Heaven and Earth would pass away in Matthew 24:35.
Matthew 5:17-18 is helpful in understanding that we are no longer to keep the Law of Moses. Heaven and Earth truly have passed away.
Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Until heaven and earth pass away NOTHING will pass from the Law.......UNTIL Jesus accomplishes it. A.D 70.
I agree with you that 2 Peter 3 is linked to the Olivet Discourse in that "heaven and earth shall pass away"; however, the agreement stops there. Yeshua`s words in Matthew 24:35 do not dictate when 2 Peter 3:7-12 occurs, but rather 2 Peter 3:7-12 serves to explain when Yeshua`s words WILL happen in the future!
Jesus was not "looking off into the distant future about His Second Coming"; Jesus was coming (yes, His Second Coming) to judge and to bring salvation all within that generation.
But, here, I must EMPHATICALLY disagree because now you've lost the truth of God's Word! You must understand that there are pronoun differences in the Greek, translated into English, within the Olivet Discourse recorded in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. All three of these accounts are in agreement on the usage of these different pronouns.
This is why I am such an advocate for the King James Authorized Version of the Bible. In the big push to bring in new versions that TAKE OUT the "thee's and thou's," they LOST some of the meaning of the words! See, "thee's and thou's" are singular, while "ye's and you's" are plural. Furthermore, they lost much of the case structure of Old and Middle English. The difference between "ye" and "you" is that "ye" is the subjective case while "you" is the objective case. On the flip side, "thou" is the subjective case while "thee" is the objective case. Here are some usages of these four: "
Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars." "Verily I say unto
you,..." "
Thou shalt not steal." "I will love
thee, O LORD, my strength."
The same is true for the words "thy," "thine," "your," and "yours." All are possessive, but the "thy" and "thine" are singular while the "your" and "yours" are plural. Furthermore, the "thy" and "your" are adjective forms, while the "thine" and "yours" will replace the noun or pronoun they modify. "Pray to
thy Father which is in secret..." "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is
thine." "Why reason ye these things in
your hearts?" "If they have kept my saying, they will keep
yours also." (This is not strictly true because sometimes "thine" and "yours" are used like adjectives, as well.)
Today, out of all EIGHT of these forms, we have kept THREE: "you," "your," and "yours." So, instead of thinking singular when we read "thou shalt not kill," we read "you shall not kill" and He could be talking to one or many people at once!
Now, in Greek there are also many words that translate to forms of the word "you":
In singular, the forms are...
Nominative case:
su = thou
Genitive case:
sou = of thee
Ablative case:
sou = from thee
Locative case:
soi = in thee or at thee
Instrumental case:
soi = with thee or by thee
Dative case:
soi = to thee or for thee
Accusative case:
se = thee
In plural, the forms are...
Nominative case:
humeis = ye
Genitive case:
humoon = of you
Ablative case:
humoon = from you
Locative case:
humin = in you or at you
Instrumental case:
humin = with you or by you
Dative case:
humin = to you or for you
Accusative case:
humas = you
The possessives are the genitive-case forms above.
The words "thee," "thou," "thy," and "thine" are not used at all in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21. The only times they are used in the Olivet Discourse are when the lord is talking individually to his servants in Matthew 25. All other occurrences of "ye," "you," or "your" are plural, and that is consistent with the Greek. So, He is ALWAYS talking to more than one person - the people right in front of Him on that mountain. However, not everything is ADDRESSED to them! Sometimes, He will address them and then as He is talking about the future and gets farther and farther away from His present, the pronouns CHANGE! They become less about the people in front of Him and address a group of people not there, yet! Or, He will make the pronouns more "nebulous" and not directed to any specific group of people.
Before making rash statements that you will have to retract in the future after you have learned the truth, study it out with an open mind!
I see pronouns in Revelation 2-3. Here is a small sample.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Rev 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.
Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.
The "you" throughout 1 Thessalonians 4:9-12 is the same "you" throughout v13-18 is the same "you" throughout 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11.
I'm very glad that Paul taught the Thessalonians well.
1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
Sudden destruction would come upon those unbelieving in Jesus.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
However, the Christians were fully aware. Jesus told them the signs ahead of time.
1Th 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
-Interceptor
Yes, there are pronouns EVERYWHERE in the Scriptures, but you really need to pay attention to which are singular and which are plural! Furthermore, you should also check out to whom they are written! For instance, all the verses that you quoted from Revelation above were from the chapters in which Yeshua` is having Yochanan (John) write directly to seven, individual "called-out" congregations in Asia Minor, which is today known as Turkey. They are not generically written to all generations, nor are they written for specific "time periods in the Church age." They were each written specifically to the LEADER of the congregation in those seven towns. You will find that the words are "thee" and "thou" in the KJV, and Yochanan was to write to the "angel" (Greek: "
aggelos" = "messenger") in each congregation.
