Sinless Perfection?

Prentis · Aug 14, 2012

UHCAIan said:
Enitre Sanctification is achieved in this life. I do apologize! I had to go back and reread our (UHCA) doctrine and study the scripture.

Then a big amen brother!

Hi Prentis, my question to you is this. Do you currently life a perfectly obedient life? Are you now in a state of "sinless perfection"? Or, to use this other phrase, "behavioral perfection"? To say that you never commit any sins of any kind?

Hi Mark!

No... No... No...

Do you believe that if we do not have that sort of a life, that we are none-the-less born again, heaven bound, redeemed, provided we actually have been born again?

I see a dangerous mix in what you put there... Born again without walking there? Absolutely possible. Maybe even the experience of most, if not, at least many. It is the heaven bound that I find dangerous. If you mean it in it's most simple sense, that heaven is where we are going towards, then yes. But new birth is in no way a guarantee of victory. God does not say 'To those who have some experience with me, I will give to eat of the tree of life', but to those who overcome.

Here's a good example of what the scriptures say.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The implication is simple. We can fall away. We can begin well and end bad. New birth is but the beginning of our walk, not the end.

Do you believe that a person can be born again, baptized into Christ, filled with the Spirit, and still commit sins?

Direct questions . . . direct answers please.

Thank you!

Love in Christ,
Mark

Sure! I'm not saying that having an experience with God makes one automatically sinless. It is in abiding in him, in a full surrender to him and in his power that we can walk like this. This walk is not the beginning of our walk, but the end. Not to say we cannot begin like this, but it is the end result of walking with Christ. It is a tree bearing full fruit.

mark s · Aug 14, 2012

JohnnyB said:
I am referring to the life of Christ being manifested in us so that we are able to walk in HIS power and HiS strength- NOW!

We can not do this of ourselves, in our own strength, we need Him to do so. We can overcome all things because He has already overcome.

Purely at face value on this one, I completely agree with you.

Hepzibah said:
This is because Pelagius pointed out that the man was not absolutely depraved. Augustine had to backtrack but he still did not agree with Pelagius`s view, that it is a believer in the throes of despair and conviction of sin (just before he becomes entirely sanctified).

This is view :

C but it has always been the view of the few.

Hi Hepzibah,

Are you entirely sanctified? Does this mean "without any commission of sin"?

Love in Christ,
Mark

whitestone said:
For those who still aren't filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus, you will still sin of course. Just as I did prior to being filled with Christ.
Christ doesn't sin.

Whitestone, I hardly know what to say to you. But two Scriptures come to mind, as I've read so many of your posts.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 ESV
(24) And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
(25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
(26) and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Your mocking and insults do not bear witness to this.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 ESV
(3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
(4) I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
(5) Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Your proclamations do not bear witness with this.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Arnie Manitoba · Aug 14, 2012

Trekson said:
Whitestone, Your words: "Those who still sin, have yet to receive the Holy Spirit of Christ fill their body soul and spirit. Otherwise they wouldn't chose to continue in sin, crucifying Jesus again and again in their wickedness."

This is a false adaptation of what is being taught. The verse in question: Heb. 6:4-6 - " For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [sup]5 [/sup]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What the writer of Hebrews is teaching is that once a person is saved and then "falls away", using the same phrasology as found in 2 Thess. 2:3 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."

he is speaking about becoming "apostate". Rejecting what one once believed in. This IS NOT speaking of an occasional sin a believer might commit or even backsliding, in the worst case scenario. What you teach shows that you have absolutely no understanding of grace and mercy.

Most Gentile Christians mis-apply Hebrews as to themselves. We cannot use those verses in such a manner.

Hebrews was written to religious observant Jews who were new Christians.

They were being admonished not to go back to Jewish religion (after receiving Christ) (and after being enlightened) ..... because they would have to repent again , and (allegorically) have to come again to Christ (crucify Him all over again) .... which is not possible ..... because they already had received Christ (once and for all).

The book of Hebrews doesn't make much sense until we consider it is for religious Jews who are now Christians. Re-read the book with that in mind .... then it makes perfect sense.

Also .... the book of Hebrews is an excellent teaching of how the Old Covenant (testament) is now fulfilled in The New Covenant (Testament )

Best wishes.

haz · Aug 14, 2012

Episkopos said:
Are you referring to the thread that Kidron posted about the law being abolished for Christians. I can take a joke!!! You sided with the most absurd propositions ever put forth on a Christian forum. How can you say you are filled with the Spirit and contradict truth so directly is beyond me. Thankfully the thread was shut down based on gross heresy! Haz...you agreed with this gross heresy! There is something very wrong with the way you see things.

Without "behavioural perfection" as you call it...fruit of the Spirit actually...we are holding the truth in unrighteousness.

Hi Epi,

Did you note Kidron's Topic, about sinlessness in Christ, is unblocked. They realized it was blocked by mistake. Obviously Kidron wasn't speaking heresy.

Speaking of heresy, you still haven't been able to support from scripture your doctrine that perfect behavior is proof of one's salvation. And I note that you try to bring Christians back under works of the law, quoting Gal 2:16-18 wrongly to support your view.

We submit to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3,4).
Why do you reject this and continue to preach righteousness by works of the law (Rom 9:31,32)?

whitestone · Aug 14, 2012

Arnie Manitoba said:
Most Gentile Christians mis-apply Hebrews as to themselves. We cannot use those verses in such a manner.

Hebrews was written to religious observant Jews who were new Christians.

They were being admonished not to go back to Jewish religion (after receiving Christ) (and after being enlightened) ..... because they would have to repent again , and (allegorically) have to come again to Christ (crucify Him all over again) .... which is not possible ..... because they already had received Christ (once and for all).

The book of Hebrews doesn't make much sense until we consider it is for religious Jews who are now Christians. Re-read the book with that in mind .... then it makes perfect sense.

Also .... the book of Hebrews is an excellent teaching of how the Old Covenant (testament) is now fulfilled in The New Covenant (Testament )

Best wishes.

"Eber" from where we get the word "Hebrew" means "one who has crossed over".

The book of Hebrews is a book inteneded for those who are crossed over from death into life.
It is a book that shows forth the reality in the Spirit of the shadows and types of the O.T. system. It is a book where the veil is lifted and the mysteries are revealed.

The seriousness of sin, after having received the Holy Spirit, is what I quoted out of the book.

The book was written, and the verses I quoted, are applicable today to we who have crossed over, true 'Hebrews'.

No need to "explain" it otherwise, it is clear. If a man sins after having receiving Christ, it is "tredding Christ underfoot" it is counting the Blood of the covenant less than holy.
Period.

It is what it is.

For those who teach their theology supports sinning after receiving the Holy Spirit is normal Christian behavior, are false teachers. Plain and simple and get rebuked appropriately and accordingly.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings. Just adjust your theology accordingly. You will then know the grace of God and His Righteousness.

Peace,

Whitestone

mark s said:
Whitestone, I hardly know what to say to you. But two Scriptures come to mind, as I've read so many of your posts.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 ESV
(24) And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
(25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
(26) and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Your mocking and insults do not bear witness to this.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 ESV
(3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
(4) I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
(5) Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Your proclamations do not bear witness with this.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Let me guess, you are also one of these "teachers" who sin regularly?
Who are you to know how the Lord has me deal with false teachers sir? You think you know more how the Lord works through me than I do?

Yes, the scriptures you quoted are how we deal with brethren.

I was not dealing with brethren.
If you respected just scales you would know I was dealing with wolves in sheep clothing and I was rebuking the false teachers who pass themselves off here as "Christians";

And here is how I was doing it;

(1Ti 5:20) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
(Eph 5:11) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
(Tit 1:13) This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
(Tit 1:14) Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
(Rev 3:19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(Mat 18:15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
(Mat 18:16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(Mat 18:17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
(1Co 5:7) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
(1Co 5:8) Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
(1Co 5:9) I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
(1Co 5:10) Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
(1Co 5:11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
(1Co 5:12) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
(1Co 5:13) But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

If you are one of these as haz and dave and others here who bear false witness against Axe, Epi, Dragon and others who bring the message of the Gospel, you are being rebuked and need to deal with it with some wisdom. It is that simple. It is for the Love of your soul.

Are you one of these who continues in sin that grace may abound? Do you teach that a man can NOT become sinless in Christ? Then you are a false prophet and I will rebuke you accordingly. If you are man enough, we will come to an understanding in scriptures. If you are simply sold out to arguing and false accusing, then off with you, your comments are meaningless.

Whitestone.

Axehead · Aug 14, 2012

Arnie Manitoba said:
Most Gentile Christians mis-apply Hebrews as to themselves. We cannot use those verses in such a manner.

Hebrews was written to religious observant Jews who were new Christians.

They were being admonished not to go back to Jewish religion (after receiving Christ) (and after being enlightened) ..... because they would have to repent again , and (allegorically) have to come again to Christ (crucify Him all over again) .... which is not possible ..... because they already had received Christ (once and for all).

The book of Hebrews doesn't make much sense until we consider it is for religious Jews who are now Christians. Re-read the book with that in mind .... then it makes perfect sense.

Also .... the book of Hebrews is an excellent teaching of how the Old Covenant (testament) is now fulfilled in The New Covenant (Testament )

Best wishes.

Spiritual truth is Spiritual truth and thus it is profitable for ALL. The spiritual principles contained in Truth are not just relegated to a certain people but relevant for ALL peoples.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By your reasoning, Much of the Pentateuch is not relevant for Gentiles. Indeed, much of the OT is not.

Axehead

Hepzibah · Aug 15, 2012

Can you provide some scripture to support your understanding?
How is it that the thief on the cross gets fast-tracked to the 'full revelation and knowledge of the full salvation Christ gained for us' whilst the rest of us have to go through a process to be delievered from the sin nature or else face the penalty of death.

It seems like your claiming there are 2 different paths to salvation

Hi haz

The process takes as long as we allow the light to shine into our souls without turning away. That longing inside to be pure and clean again like at the very start of the journey when we got a taste of it, is a gift from God and will lead to the Day of the Lord, when He will reveal Himself in His full glory unless one listens to the lies of Satan which have overcome the church since the days of Augustine and which say that the normal life of the Christian is to be one of sinning, repenting, sinning repenting sinning repenting.

During the Wesleyan revivals, there were reports of many who quickly came to full salvation, some in the same day. It happens much faster wherever the power of God is mightily present, The thief as one of the elect, did not have much time left and so God granted him the full revelation because He knew his heart.

The scriptures in which I see this, include the same ones which, before my own experience, were the ones which others are quoting here to oppose it. I fully understand the opposing view because this was the way of my own understanding. But not only individual scriptures, but the whole of the symbolism in the OT pointing to this, especially in the story of the children of Israel, and the whole of the scripture, in every single verse was now opened up to me to confirm it. There are a few verses that seem to contradict this doctrine but later I saw that I had taken them out of context, which is very easy to do. Scripture is not a dead book. It reflects to us our hearts.

Arnie Manitoba · Aug 15, 2012

whitestone said:
Sorry if it hurts your feelings. Just adjust your theology accordingly.
Whitestone.

Nothing you say will hurt my feelings whitestone.
The only thing being harmed is your perceived wonderful image of your religious self.
I encourage you to either read Hebrews in its proper context , or take some basic theology training to know how.
Could save you some embarrassing retractions down the road.

Best wishes in your studies.

Hepzibah · Aug 15, 2012

Hi Hepzibah,

Are you entirely sanctified? Does this mean "without any commission of sin"?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark. I have walked in the state of entire sanctification for two periods the longest lasting for about 18 months, where I was conscious that I was not sinning in thought, word or omission and felt that purity inside which I had longed for. No thoughts came into my mind that were not pure, and I loved my enemies who very quickly increased and persecuted me. I was praising my Saviour all the day long and experienced deep peace and joy in His presence where I could hear Him speak constantly. There was no effort on my part, it was His power which kept me from falling. My opinion of myself was that I was a miserable wretch and did not deserve His favour or mercy.

I don`t know the reason why today there are few who are really walking like this whereas in the past, there were many more. I don`t know why I do not have this experience today though I am not sinning consciously but I know I am lacking the former power and am not hearing Him daily in close communion. I am also very sick and know that His power upon us is a great strain for the body, in fact when it first came upon me I had to beg Him to stop as my heart felt like it would give out. I am content to rest in His care though and have peace. I think that Satan would like me to shut up in case I am called a hypocrite in preaching something that is not my experience at present.

Arnie Manitoba · Aug 15, 2012

Best wishes everybody.

I stand by what I said earlier ..... the intended recipients of the book of Hebrews were the observant religious Jews who had become Christians in the early church.

If anyone does not agree ... then please tell me who Hebrews was written to.

Thank you.

Hepzibah · Aug 15, 2012

[sup]12 [/sup]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[sup]13 [/sup]But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[sup]14 [/sup]For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
[sup]15 [/sup]While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[sup]16 [/sup]For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[sup]17 [/sup]But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
[sup]18 [/sup]And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[sup]19 [/sup]So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hi Arnie

The quoted verses are sayng that we must continue to the end - the entering of His rest which is entire sanctification in this life not the next, unless we get waylaid due to unbelief that it is required. Sin deceives us to disbelieve it but the longing which is, or has been in our hearts, is the witness to us that it is God`s will for us, our sanctification but sadly many do not believe and fall in the wilderness like the children of Israel. Hebrews is the warning to us all not just to ex-Jews.

mark s · Aug 15, 2012

Episkopos said:
Hi Mark!!!!

I think that it is precisely this lowering of expectation that causes us to not attain to the fulness of our calling. The race is by faith....and we cannot outrun our own faith. So if we think it can't be done, then for us, it can't be. To teach this limitation (lack of a full faith) to others further diminishes your standing in God's eyes. Who are we to declare it can't be done? Only 2 of the spies thought the promised land could be taken with God's help. Only Caleb (meaning whole heart) and Joshua didn't limit the Lord of hosts. Children seem to understand this better than adults. We tend to treat God as if He were human...rather than God!

We do it to ourselves. We should not be in the business of limiting God. We can do ALL things through Christ...with God ALL things are possible. Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. This is not a recipe for a partial attainment. We are called to overcome exactly as Jesus has overcome. The attitude of faith is pleasing to the Father. An attitude that limits a full faith is NOT pleasing to Him.

Are we relying on His power to forgive or His power to overcome?

Hi Epi,

While I don't think this will fully close the gap between us, still, I do want to affirm that I think what you are saying here is very important, and should not be overlooked.

This matter of a realistic view of our earthly life must not become a self-sabotage, to the extent that we stop expecting God to keep bringing our works more and more in line with our new spirit.

We should never fall short in hopes and expectations of what God will accomplish in us. But just the same, we should never allow our wrong behaviors to indict us before God. Who is he that condemns? It is God Who justifies.

Speaking of justification, there is a verse I posted elsewhere, that I think bears mention here.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 ESV
(3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
(4) I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
(5) Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Paul wrote that he didn't judge himself. He is saying basically that while his conscience is clear, this does not mean he hasn't done wrong. Paul acknowledges that he is not sufficient to judge himself, whether he has done right or wrong, but that Jesus will judge when He comes.

So which of us can say whether they have done no wrong? Yet some do.

Which of us can expect to reach the place where we can confidently say, "I do not sin." Paul did not have this confidence. Yet some apparently do.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Episkopos said:
. Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

One little thing here . . . we need to stay with the context, and this phrase is one of the more misused, in my opinion.

Go back to what Jesus was talking about:

Matthew 5:43-48 ESV
(43) "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
(44) But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
(45) so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
(46) For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
(47) And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
(48) You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Think, not in terms of moral excellence, as we think of "perfect", but in terms of complete, fulfilled, finished, in the word teleios. Jesus is saying here that if you only love those who love you, that's not enough. God loves both friends and enemies. We must do no less.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Episkopos said:
Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Thomas doubted because he had not seen Jesus physically resurrected. But after the Spirit was poured out on mankind we have no record of Thomas ever doubting again.

After Thomas saw Jesus in the upper room, we have no record of Thomas doubting.

But both of these are arguments from silence. There is no record he doubted, and there is no record that he believed, so far as I can think of. Now, I assume he believed, but we need to separate assumption and speculation from Scripture teaching.

But just a quick thought concerning Thomas, he sure had had a bad rap over the centuries, but he did EXACTLY what Jesus had instructed:

Matthew 24:23-26 ESV
(23) Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it.
(24) For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
(25) See, I have told you beforehand.
(26) So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

And he didn't believe it. But when he saw, he believed, and gave one of history's greatest declarations of the Risen Christ, "My Lord and my God!"

Love in Christ,
Mark

JohnnyB said:
Your statement suggests God only contains some power, that perhaps His power is lacking, because 1) we must do it ourselves (our own strength 2) His power is not enough because people keep sinning.

Hi JohnnyB,

When I say God has given us His power to not sin, this was meant to be understood that God's power is just that, and not to imply there are limits to God's power.

We do nothing of ourselves, it is Christ in us, the hope of glory. It is no longer us, it is Him and that is why all things are possible! We can try in our own power to transform ourselves, to overcome sin but it will be in vain. We are abiding in Christ.

Agreed, we cannot in our own power transform our selves. I believe it's more that we cooperate with what God is doing in us.

2 Peter 1:3 tells us God has empowered us with all we need to live godly lives!! He goes onto tell us that we can participate in the divine nature.

2Peter 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers if the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.

I always like to stay with Biblical terminology as much as possible.

In this Peter passage, while you are saying God has "empowered us" with these promises, I don't think that's quite what Peter is saying here.

God has give us His precious promises, that through them we may become partakers of the divine nature. Now, I don't mean to diminish this at all. In fact, this is part of that balance that we cannot afford to lose in the discussion over whether we will or will not reach a state of complete sinlessness.

While some may debate that vigorously, it would be a significant error to fail to remember that God has committed Himself to make us like Him. This is what it means that He's given us His promises that through them we partake of the divine nature. That's what a promise is. God has committed Himself towards this end.

Absolutely amazing!

Nonetheless, it is incorrect to say that 2 Peter 1:3 . . .

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence," (ESV)

. . . tells us God has empowered us, it actually says that God's power has given us all we need.

Something else I'll point out from this passage . . .

Peter writes to "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ".

And to these people, he counsels them to add virtue, and knowledge, and self-control, and all the rest, as though they were not complete in these. Interesting, is it not?

But while we're in Peter, talking about power, there is something Peter says . . .

1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(4) to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
(5) who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Our faith is God's power in us! God's Own power! God's power is that guards us, and it is through faith that it happens. Therefore, our faith is the manifestation of God's power in us, just like incandescent light is the manifestation of electricity though the bulb's filament.

And interestingly, Peter says we are guarded by God's power through faith, and not by our ability to behave well. Not to say that He doesn't mean for us to, of course He does.

Peter explains a process, which builds upon one another, and following these, with Christ, we will never stumble!

2Peter 1:5 yea, and for this cause adding on your part diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtueknowledge; and in you knowledge self-control; and in self control patience; and in your patience godliness; and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in btotherly kindness love.................

........for if you do these things YE SHALL NEVER STUMBLE.

It's a maturing process.

I think there is a tendency to justify ourselves when it comes to sin, for instance people might sin and shrug it off with the explanation, oh well I'm a sinner, it's human nature. We are unable to justify ourselves, God is the justifier.

I see this passage as a "step by step" putting on Christ, or putting on the new man.

We should never just shrug off sin. But in the new spirit, that's not our reaction to sin, is it? We want to be done with it, and look towards our God to put it away from us.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hepzibah said:
Hi Mark. I have walked in the state of entire sanctification for two periods the longest lasting for about 18 months, where I was conscious that I was not sinning in thought, word or omission and felt that purity inside which I had longed for. No thoughts came into my mind that were not pure, and I loved my enemies who very quickly increased and persecuted me. I was praising my Saviour all the day long and experienced deep peace and joy in His presence where I could hear Him speak constantly. There was no effort on my part, it was His power which kept me from falling. My opinion of myself was that I was a miserable wretch and did not deserve His favour or mercy.

I don`t know the reason why today there are few who are really walking like this whereas in the past, there were many more. I don`t know why I do not have this experience today though I am not sinning consciously but I know I am lacking the former power and am not hearing Him daily in close communion. I am also very sick and know that His power upon us is a great strain for the body, in fact when it first came upon me I had to beg Him to stop as my heart felt like it would give out. I am content to rest in His care though and have peace. I think that Satan would like me to shut up in case I am called a hypocrite in preaching something that is not my experience at present.

Matthew 11:28-30 ESV
(28) Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
(30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

And I think Satan would like to shut us all up! But I commend you for your boldness to share this. I believe God has our good at heart, and is working out the details of our lives to make us like Him, even when we don't see that.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hepzibah said:
I see it as a salvation issue.

A Christian and a sinner are incompatible. However, a believer that is, one who has come to Christ for forgiveness, will still commit sins until he is given revelation by God that it is not acceptable and he is not in the ark of safety unless he is saved from sin - this is the reason Christ died for us. Until he has been brought to that point, which is any time after he comes to Christ, and can be immediately after as we see by the thief on the cross, and given the full revelation and knowledge of the full salvation Christ gained for us, he will claim that he is positionally holy and acceptable. He is fooling himself. The day the Lord shows him this truth, he is undone and has come tot he end of himself and cries out with Paul - oh wretched man.

This allows Christ to carry out His full work in the man and he is delivered from the sin nature. Sadly this is not happening too much today. We are in dark times indeed when most oppose this most holy truth.

My question then is this.

Do you believe that as you have not continued in the same experience, does this mean you've become unsaved? Having been born again, did you die again? I don't believe such a thing can be. Do you?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hepzibah · Aug 15, 2012

He is saying basically that while his conscience is clear, this does not mean he hasn't done wrong. Paul acknowledges that he is not sufficient to judge himself, whether he has done right or wrong, but that Jesus will judge when He comes.

So which of us can say whether they have done no wrong? Yet some do.

Which of us can expect to reach the place where we can confidently say, "I do not sin." Paul did not have this confidence. Yet some apparently do.

Hi Mark

Paul is telling the Corinthians not to judge till He comes, not that he himself, Paul will not judge till He comes. Jesus had come for Paul when He returned to him to baptise him in the Spirit.

"5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

This is the meaning of the second coming and for which the apostles expected, and encouraged others to prepare themselves for. They themselves had already received it at Pentecost.

Do you believe that as you have not continued in the same experience, does this mean you've become unsaved? Having been born again, did you die again? I don't believe such a thing can be. Do you?

I cannot judge myself, I can only depend on the witness I have within and where there is doubt I must remain unsure of exactly my position and as I have not the faith to say that I am not sinning in some secret recesses of my heart then I am not saved no, according to my scriptural understanding. The word for me is restoration.

I believe God has our good at heart, and is working out the details of our lives to make us like Him, even when we don't see that.

Yes I agree so long as our hearts are tender towards Him and we are seeking His will.

Pauls claim to perfection.

[sup]10 [/sup]Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 1Thess 2:10

Why would Paul claim to have behaved blamelessly before the Thessalonians if he did not have the witness of perfection? Further, why would he tell others to immitate him if he was as powerless over sin as they were? What opinion would we have of a pastor today who told us to copy him?

jiggyfly · Aug 15, 2012

Here's a scripture to throw into the thread and consider.
3 Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus.5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.
1 Cor 5:3-5 (NLT)

haz · Aug 15, 2012

Hepzibah said:
Hi haz

The process takes as long as we allow the light to shine into our souls without turning away. That longing inside to be pure and clean again like at the very start of the journey when we got a taste of it, is a gift from God and will lead to the Day of the Lord, when He will reveal Himself in His full glory unless one listens to the lies of Satan which have overcome the church since the days of Augustine and which say that the normal life of the Christian is to be one of sinning, repenting, sinning repenting sinning repenting.

During the Wesleyan revivals, there were reports of many who quickly came to full salvation, some in the same day. It happens much faster wherever the power of God is mightily present, The thief as one of the elect, did not have much time left and so God granted him the full revelation because He knew his heart.

The scriptures in which I see this, include the same ones which, before my own experience, were the ones which others are quoting here to oppose it. I fully understand the opposing view because this was the way of my own understanding. But not only individual scriptures, but the whole of the symbolism in the OT pointing to this, especially in the story of the children of Israel, and the whole of the scripture, in every single verse was now opened up to me to confirm it. There are a few verses that seem to contradict this doctrine but later I saw that I had taken them out of context, which is very easy to do. Scripture is not a dead book. It reflects to us our hearts.

Hi Hepzibah,

You said that Satan has taken over many churches so that Christians live a lifestyle of sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting.....

BUT, in post #49 you said ' I have walked in the state of entire sanctification for two periods the longest lasting for about 18 months,'

As you yourself are not continually walking in this perfection, are you not then (according to your doctrine) sinning, repenting, sinning,repenting...the same as those Christians you complained about?

Consider 1John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Your doctrine seems similar to that of Epi. From what I understand of Epi's claims, both you and Epi are not abiding in Christ as you both currently sin (you do not continuously live a perfect lifestyle). This then means that you have neither seen Him nor known him (according to 1John 3:6).

Can you see the error in this doctrine you follow?

HammerStone · Aug 15, 2012

Excellent point Jiggy, the goal of "church discipline" there was ultimately to restore a believer to the fold. This passage pretty much states that outright.

To anticipate the argument, though, you have to look at how people are seeing this on the other side. I've read up on this subject, and I am by no means an expert, but there is a school of thought in Christianity that our salvation and Holy Spirit baptism/sanctification do not occur at the same time. As I understand it (and someone from the other camp, correct me if I am wrong), you are first saved and you continue for a time while you await the second baptism of the Holy Spirit. I know many Holiness, Pentecostal, and other similar denominations believe this. I was reading about another one of those denominations the other day, but the name escapes me.

There is also a subset of this doctrine which I think I see here where this Holy Spirit baptism comes mutliple times. It's almost a hyper-Arminianism if there was such a thing.

Episkopos · Aug 15, 2012

Hepzibah said:
Hi Mark. I have walked in the state of entire sanctification for two periods the longest lasting for about 18 months, where I was conscious that I was not sinning in thought, word or omission and felt that purity inside which I had longed for. No thoughts came into my mind that were not pure, and I loved my enemies who very quickly increased and persecuted me. I was praising my Saviour all the day long and experienced deep peace and joy in His presence where I could hear Him speak constantly. There was no effort on my part, it was His power which kept me from falling. My opinion of myself was that I was a miserable wretch and did not deserve His favour or mercy.

I don`t know the reason why today there are few who are really walking like this whereas in the past, there were many more. I don`t know why I do not have this experience today though I am not sinning consciously but I know I am lacking the former power and am not hearing Him daily in close communion. I am also very sick and know that His power upon us is a great strain for the body, in fact when it first came upon me I had to beg Him to stop as my heart felt like it would give out. I am content to rest in His care though and have peace. I think that Satan would like me to shut up in case I am called a hypocrite in preaching something that is not my experience at present.

That is EXACTLY my testimony...I also walked for 2 periods of entire sanctification the longest being 18 months (or so) as well.

Although I asked God to continue and a knife went into my heart causing me great pain so that I walked like a dead man afterwards for about a week.

JohnnyB · Aug 15, 2012

Episkopos said:
That is EXACTLY my testimony...I also walked for 2 periods of entire sanctification the longest being 18 months (or so) as well.

Although I asked God to continue and a knife went into my heart causing me great pain so that I walked like a dead man afterwards for about a week.

Amazing!
I hope I get to experience that one day!

TO EVERYONE:
There is an underlying theme among people who do not believe in complete sanctification, it is viewed as a form of "salvation by works". My question to you would be,

How did works get replaced with "not to sin"? Not to sin is now works? Obedience is now works?

A.W Tozer, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience"

Now we not only have a people who disbelieve the power of God to complete His work in us so that we are holy, perfect and acceptable to Him, but a people who believe in the long run that sinning has no bearing on their eternity. Sinning matters to God.

dragonfly · Aug 15, 2012

Hi HammerStone,

To anticipate the argument, though, you have to look at how people are seeing this on the other side. I've read up on this subject, and I am by no means an expert, but there is a school of thought in Christianity that our salvation and Holy Spirit baptism/sanctification do not occur at the same time. As I understand it (and someone from the other camp, correct me if I am wrong), you are first saved and you continue for a time while you await the second baptism of the Holy Spirit. I know many Holiness, Pentecostal, and other similar denominations believe this. I was reading about another one of those denominations the other day, but the name escapes me.

There is also a subset of this doctrine which I think I see here where this Holy Spirit baptism comes mutliple times. It's almost a hyper-Arminianism if there was such a thing.

I'm no expert either, but I think it's important to realise there is truth in most of the construct which are offered as theology. It is much safer to seek from scripture to see how God dealt with those who went before us in the faith, especially in that (imho) their expectation of what it meant to become a follower of Jesus Christ was almost entirely limited to the Old Testament promises, their observations of Christ in action living as a Man, and, how He taught them to interpret scripture after He had risen from the dead - followed by baptism in the Holy Spirit. In the gospel accounts also, we see how slow the disciples were to 'understand' or even to believe - all of what He was trying to explain to them. If there was one thing which exasperated Jesus, it was unbelief. Therefore, we do observe without any controversy, that baptism in the Holy Spirit makes a world of difference to the power in which a disciple of Christ can walk and obey Him, (quite apart from it being the spirit of adoption whereby we cry 'Abba', 'Father'.

Having worked in obstetric departments, I have a view of birth as a picture of 'new birth', which is backed up by many random verses in the New Testament, particularly, but, also from accepting what Genesis tells us about Adam's formation and animation. There is no doubt in my mind, that natural birth is modeled on spiritual birth, and all the same principles - even the new heart and the new spirit - apply. This gives me great confidence in the baptism in the Holy Spirit as the real delineation between viability of life potential while in the womb, and the dynamic power of the babe in the cot who, apparently without too much effort, can make its presence felt in a room from the moment of birth.

Although the Spirit broods over the waters covering the 'earth' (clay pot) in the womb, (and the Spirit supports the life via the mother), it is not until the clay pot (babe) birth process culminates in the baby being plunged out of darkness and into light, that the the 'spirit' which now surrounds him, can rush into him as he draws breath for the first time.

But we, as adults, do not immediately see the parallels, although they are all there in the life of a person who is being drawn by God into a closer relationship with Him, but has not yet received His Spirit to give that dynamic life within. There is also the matter of cognition - of us having to have some sort of direction from God in the context of our real lives, for the power of the Holy Spirit.

With regard to a continuous supply of the Spirit, Paul refers to this in Phil 1:19, 20, and again he exhorts to 'be being filled with the Spirit' in Eph 5:18. There are quite few verses in which 'full of the Spirit and...' or, 'they were (all) filled with the Spirit', indicate that the reception of the Holy Spirit is not a one time event, just as the first gasp of air is not the last time a baby takes air in. There is, also, the picture Jesus gives us of water welling up (from somewhere - presumably our connection to Him) and flowing out from us. According to 1 John 4:12, 13, not only do we benefit from the Spirit in us, but it has to be being demonstrated to others by our lifestyle, and then God will keep supplying His requirement upon us, to pour out.

Really, it's a shame that theologians took it upon themselves to oversimplify what we can learn from scripture about the work and effects of the Holy Spirit both in us and upon us. Without doubt, some 'believers' have the Holy Spirit upon them occasionally, in the same way as OT saints could have - but the permanence of the indwelling Holy Spirit is best explained by meditating upon natural birth. This also shows us that the restrictions/bondage of living in dark in the womb should have been removed, and that old tie with another life, should have been permanently severed.

Hepzibah · Aug 15, 2012

Hi haz

You said that Satan has taken over many churches so that Christians live a lifestyle of sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting.....

BUT, in post #49 you said ' I have walked in the state of entire sanctification for two periods the longest lasting for about 18 months,'

As you yourself are not continually walking in this perfection, are you not then (according to your doctrine) sinning, repenting, sinning,repenting...the same as those Christians you complained about?

Consider 1John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Your doctrine seems similar to that of Epi. From what I understand of Epi's claims, both you and Epi are not abiding in Christ as you both currently sin (you do not continuously live a perfect lifestyle). This then means that you have neither seen Him nor known him (according to 1John 3:6).

Can you see the error in this doctrine you follow?

I am not back to how I was as a believer but not saved from sin as I am able to not sin whereas before, there was something inside me that could not live in complete obedience even though I desired to. I struggled with my flesh at that time and had a problem with anger which I could barely control at times. Now that the power of sin has been broken there is no sin I struggle with but I feel a heaviness and lack of power to enable me to walk joyfully. So I am not conscious of any sins but neither am I conscious of purity as I was before. I dont fully understand it and long to be back to what I was. Actually I tested one thing that I had when I walked in the light abd that was authority over creation just like Adam had and which Wesley looked for in the ES`ed. It worked. In the past I have ordered the rain to cease and a bees nest to empty (it was empty within 10 minutes, one outside of my window). Oh and I am not complaining about sinners as I was the worst. I am merely witnessing to a better way.

Wow Epi that`s amazing! How long since you were in that state?

Sinless Perfection?

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