Sinless Perfection?

mark s · Aug 17, 2012

Episkopos said:
We all expect to walk in the fulness of Christ after we die. We all agree on this. It is just that some of us believe we can experience this life NOW through experiencing this death in Christ NOW. How else could Paul say that we (the believers) were dead to sin? How else could we carry the death around with us so that the life might be made manifest.

If the victory over sin was a hope rather than a present experience the bible would be worded very differently.

It would say something like...he who says he overcomes through Christ in this life is a liar and the truth is not in him.

But the message is precisely that we overcome through Christ by faith.

Hi Epi,

You have not addressed what I've written.

I've noticed this as continuing trend in general in this thread.

I've asked specific questions numerous times, to find them repeatedly ignored. And this is the latest example.

Is it too hard, too painful, too . . . what?

You wrote:

This is not usually asked in a brotherly way.....but in a doubting way...

And I asked, Are you saying this of me?

Are you?

Love in Christ,
Mark

I've considered whether to go through this thread to compile all of the simple, direct questions I've asked people that have been ignored. But if I did, would it matter?

Axehead · Aug 17, 2012

Episkopos said:
This is not usually asked in a brotherly way.....but in a doubting way...

1. Would a brother who was walking without sin even notice that he is?
2. Who would believe even if he said he was?
3. The enemy likes to discourage faith in real brothers....anybody can throw stones.

So we must keep to the discussion from a biblical perspective...since there is no guarantee a poster is an actual brother. PM's are for questions of a more personal nature.

Who would even say they are sinless? Where is the humility? No one is saying they are sinless and have reached absolute perfection (perfectness). One might say, "I am not conscious of any sin" and I would say "Praise the Lord, brother. Keep running hard after Jesus Christ yet keep a teachable spirit for there is much to learn". I think that is what people mean when they say, "I am walking without sin" (at least the people in these threads. The Scriptures plainly state that "If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh". If one is sinning they are not walking in the Spirit. So, shouldn't we all encourage one another to walk in the Spirit? If God told us to do this, then it must be possible, right? Otherwise it is quite an unfair command from Him.

Maybe "Walking in the Spirit" is what is being doubted by everyone. Maybe some believe "Walking in the Spirit" includes sinning at the same time. I don't know, if someone believes this please let us know. And, whoever is reading this, do you believe Jesus Christ commands us to forsake sin? If He says this, then it must be possible. John certainly believed it:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (There is that word "Works", again. Jesus is here to destroy the works of the devil in our lives).

Ahhh, look at this in 1 John 3:8. I found another verse depicting "derivation". He that committeth sin is of the devil. Is anyone understanding that we are derivative creatures and we look outside of ourselves for a SPIRITUAL SOURCE? We derive our character either from God or Satan. We feed on them. We feed on either the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan has created a counterfeit for everything that is real from God. Even the New Age Humanists that have been tricked into thinking they are just "feeding" on themselves are really feeding on Satan. Self, as in "selfish" is no different than the nature of Satan. I showed some pictures pictures of this. Would you like to see them again?

Here are some of Satan's counterfeits. He is very clever and crafty, you know?
God's Voice
Miracles
Baptism in the Holy Spirit
The Presence of God
Christ manifested in us
Surrendering to God
Holiness of God
Fellowship of His Sufferings
Consciousness of God
Trusting God
Reliance on God
Waiting on God
Praying to God
Communion with
Asking God
God speaking

Satan counterfeits all of these things and more in order to get us to come to him and abide in him and draw our life (counterfeit life which is death) from him.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Axehead

mark s · Aug 17, 2012

Axehead said:
Who would even say they are sinless? Where is the humility? No one is saying they are sinless and have reached absolute perfection (perfectness).

Hi Axe,

That's not exactly correct. There is one saying he has reached sinlessness, this "total sanctification".

One might say, "I am not conscious of any sin" and I would say "Praise the Lord, brother. Keep running hard after Jesus Christ yet keep a teachable spirit for there is much to learn".

That is a great reply, imo.

I think that is what people mean when they say, "I am walking without sin" (at least the people in these threads.

Perhaps they will elucidate this, if that is what they mean. But the statements have seemed to me to be very clear.

The Scriptures plainly state that "If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh". If one is sinning they are not walking in the Spirit. So, shouldn't we all encourage one another to walk in the Spirit? If God told us to do this, then it must be possible, right? Otherwise it is quite an unfair command from Him.

Absolutely!!! Yes!

Maybe "Walking in the Spirit" is what is being doubted by everyone. Maybe some believe "Walking in the Spirit" includes sinning at the same time. I don't know, if someone believes this please let us know. And, whoever is reading this, do you believe Jesus Christ commands us to forsake sin? If He says this, then it must be possible. John certainly believed it:

I think at issue is whether a sin committed means that you are not a Christian, not born again, that you are condemned in your sins.

I believe that I am born again. Everyone who knows me believes the same. I believe that being born again, God will keep me secure to the end. And yet I still commit sins sometimes.

Do I remain born again though I've committed a sin? Does it mean I'm an unbeliever? Does it mean I'm lost, condemned to eternal torment?

To the rest of your post, we're going to need to look at the grammar in those passages, which I do not have the time or resource at the moment.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Episkopos · Aug 17, 2012

mark s said:
Hi Epi,

You have not addressed what I've written.

I've noticed this as continuing trend in general in this thread.

I've asked specific questions numerous times, to find them repeatedly ignored. And this is the latest example.

Is it too hard, too painful, too . . . what?

You wrote:

And I asked, Are you saying this of me?

Are you?

Love in Christ,
Mark

I've considered whether to go through this thread to compile all of the simple, direct questions I've asked people that have been ignored. But if I did, would it matter?

You tell me! I'm not judging your motive. But this question usually carries an unbelief with it. Are you saying this in unbelief? Why do you care what I think? You know and God knows...that is enough. I am not adding or taking away anything here. If you agree with me that the question is normally stated in unbelief you would say...I don't mean it that way!

If you meant it out of curiousity like..really??? You think it is possible???

Then you are not asking through unbelief.

haz · Aug 17, 2012

Episkopos said:
You tell me! I'm not judging your motive. But this question usually carries an unbelief with it. Are you saying this in unbelief? Why do you care what I think? You know and God knows...that is enough. I am not adding or taking away anything here. If you agree with me that the question is normally stated in unbelief you would say...I don't mean it that way!

If you meant it out of curiousity like..really??? You think it is possible???

Then you are not asking through unbelief.

Hi Epi,

Regarding 'unbelief', considering your approach here on this forum of telling others they are in fantasy if they believe on Jesus, and considering your doctrine that physical evidence of perfect behavior is required as an outworking of salvation, perhaps it's you who is in unbelief.
Just something for you to consider.

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. This is what the thief on the cross did.

Episkopos · Aug 17, 2012

haz said:
Hi Epi,

Regarding 'unbelief', considering your approach here on this forum of telling others they are in fantasy if they believe on Jesus, and considering your doctrine that physical evidence of perfect behavior is required as an outworking of salvation, perhaps it's you who is in unbelief.
Just something for you to consider.

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. This is what the thief on the cross did.

And Jesus actually answered the thief!!!!

People nowadays read some verses and then assume they are righteous without God saying anything at all about it. That's exactly how the Pharisees justified themselves.

We are to seek UNTIL WE FIND.... knock UNTIL GOD OPENS THE DOOR!!!!

Without this we are in an unreality where we approve our own efforts. That's just before we start our own denomination!!!

Hepzibah · Aug 18, 2012

Is it your presumption that I feel no shame or remorse when I sin?

Do you think that I do not agree with God that I am to be free from sin? Do you think that I do not desire to never sin again?

You say I am "preaching up" sin. What does that mean exactly? Do you mean that I promote sinfulness? That I think it's OK? That I want sin? Is that truly what you think?

I feel that I'm trapped in this repeating cycle where as I say "God has forgiven us", the reply is "You love sin!" Does no one realize the fallacy there?

It's like there's this cloud of "all or nothing" thinking, that causes this discussion to depart from reality over and over. Because I am of the view that Christians sin and remain Christians, because God has forgiven our sins, somehow means that I'm no Christian at all, that I'm a depraved blasphemer whose only love is to wallow in the filth of whatever it is you all imagine of me?

Have you not said yourself that you are not currently "walking in the entire state of sanctification"? You have posted that we remain in this "sanctification" "unless we get waylaid due to unbelief". So then, by your words, you have become an unbeliever, and have not continued to the end, so that you are lost, unless you repent again, and come back to faith.

But I don't think that's true. I think you are most likely a child of God, who finds life to be like all of God's children find it. Sometimes we're better, and sometimes not as much. But our hearts are ever reaching towards our heavenly Father, and we will never be completely satisfied until all sin is done away with.

You, or some of you, say that I don't believe God can do that. I most certainly believe that He can, and will. But while I'm of the view that this will not be 100% while in our fallen flesh bodies, this gets flung back in my face that i think it will be 0%! That I think God does nothing in me at all. Seriously???

Quote

The reason for sinning is not the same in the perfected. I think James is discussing the usual reason for sinning, but when the old nature has been eradicated, then there must be a process for it to be activated (we never reach a point when it is impossible to fall). From my own experiences, it was depending on my own strength again which led to the sin nature reviving but I cannot be dogmatic about it. Things can become rather vague in the upper reaches of the mountain.

Isn't there a contradiction here? Sinning in the perfected? Let me ask you . . . if the old nature has be eradicated, from where does sin come? And most importantly, where can I read of this in the Bible?

Let me ask you this also . . . if the old nature has been eradicated, then how could you actually "depend on your own strength"? If all you have is the new nature, and the new nature is the life of Christ inside you, then what else could there be that you could depend upon?

And what is the "upper reaches of the mountain"? I don't understand what that means, and I don't understand why it would make things harder to understand. It sounds like you're using this phrase to describe a "greater spirituality" or something like that, I'm guessing here, but doesn't the Bible teach that the more spiritual have greater understanding?

I really hope you are seriously considering what I'm saying in this post, and will give reasoned and careful answers to these questions.

Mark I apologise for taking so long to get back. My time is pretty much taken up with worldly matters at present.

Do you think that I do not agree with God that I am to be free from sin? Do you think that I do not desire to never sin again? You say I am "preaching up" sin. What does that mean exactly? Do you mean that I promote sinfulness? That I think it's OK? That I want sin? Is that truly what you think?

Whoever says that God cannot fulfill the longing that He placed in our hearts for purity and for the power to resist sin in this life, is agreeing with the enemy of our souls and if not actively promoting sin, is opposing the truth. Whosover is not for Him is against Him. So even if you deny promoting sinfulness, you might as well be promoting it.

So then, by your words, you have become an unbeliever, and have not continued to the end, so that you are lost, unless you repent again, and come back to faith.

I remain a believer in entire sanctification so therefore I am not an unbeliever. I am in a constant repentant state and do not think that a man who sins will get into heaven and await the mercy of God to restore me. You however, are not believing in the full work of the cross, you doubt the Lord God in thinking that He will not give you the desire of your heart for purity if indeed you still keep it and have not given up and become hardened. I dont know whats in your heart but that will happen one day if you do not respond to those longings and allow the truth to enter your soul. You will end up with a hardened heart even though you do not see it at present. Those who are warning you are doing so out of concern.

Sinning in the perfected? Let me ask you . . . if the old nature has be eradicated, from where does sin come? And most importantly, where can I read of this in the Bible? if the old nature has been eradicated, then how could you actually "depend on your own strength"? If all you have is the new nature, and the new nature is the life of Christ inside you, then what else could there be that you could depend upon?

Adam and the angels had no sin nature yet fell. I believe that there is a step we take first before it happens. We have a natural strength which is not sinful, it is our instinct, which once we have been perfected, must be subjected to the overuling of the Spirit. So when we hunger, instead of eating we fast if we sense the Spirits leading. If we miss it and eat we have not sinned. We just need more practice with discernment. However, if we do miss it we are liable to be tempted to eat again in the future which may be sin this time if we have become less concerned to fast. Its what goes on in the heart that counts and I am not an expert here otherwise I would not have come tot he state where I have missed the step again.

And what is the "upper reaches of the mountain"? I don't understand what that means, and I don't understand why it would make things harder to understand. It sounds like you're using this phrase to describe a "greater spirituality" or something like that, I'm guessing here, but doesn't the Bible teach that the more spiritual have greater understanding?

We do have more understanding of the scriptures and what Jesus means, but walking in the Spirit and subduing the instinct and denying self is an art to be learned and the enemy throws ever increasing snares in our path the higher we go. Becoming proficient is an ongoing task but the victory is assured so long as we continue though we may fall at times back into our human understanding.

I hope I have given careful answers. I am pleased to answer any question you have as much as I am able.

dragonfly · Aug 18, 2012

Hi Hepzibah,

Adam and the angels had no sin nature yet fell. I believe that there is a step we take first before it happens. We have a natural strength which is not sinful, it is our instinct, which once we have been perfected, must be subjected to the overuling of the Spirit. So when we hunger, instead of eating we fast if we sense the Spirits leading. If we miss it and eat we have not sinned. We just need more practice with discernment. However, if we do miss it we are liable to be tempted to eat again in the future which may be sin this time if we have become less concerned to fast. Its what goes on in the heart that counts and I am not an expert here otherwise I would not have come tot he state where I have missed the step again.

You expressed that well.

I think the charismatic movement's emphasis on being led by the Spirit, while not being wrong, dulled something of our instinctual earnestness towards God, who requires us to love Him with all our heart, and mind, and soul and strength. If we are constrained by this focus, so that we are facing Him the whole time in our hearts, we are much more likely to find ourselves walking straight (towards Him), and naturally fulfilling His desires through the daily business of our lives, for it is He who is working in us to conform us to the image of His Son - no matter what ordinary thing we are doing. Oswald Chambers points out that 'character' is formed as we are faithful during the mundane and repetitive daily round.

mark s · Aug 18, 2012

Episkopos said:
You tell me! I'm not judging your motive. But this question usually carries an unbelief with it. Are you saying this in unbelief? Why do you care what I think? You know and God knows...that is enough. I am not adding or taking away anything here. If you agree with me that the question is normally stated in unbelief you would say...I don't mean it that way!

If you meant it out of curiousity like..really??? You think it is possible???

Then you are not asking through unbelief.

Hi Epi,

I'm simply asking for information to define the debate. You say that it "usually carries an unbelief with it". Why add the baggage? Why not just go with face value of what I'm saying? Seriously, this question - are you completely sinless - isn't a question I have occassion to ask people normally.

But my reason was given in the post - to take if from hypothetical to reality. I much prefer to deal with realities.

Love in Christ,
Mark

MTPockets · Aug 18, 2012

I've read through this Thread three times. Admittedly, There are some very poignant and intriguing statements/opinions being discussed.

Some of the comments to this Thread read like meeting someone who has diligently studied every travel brochure about a foreign country and now boasts about being an authority about it's scenery and people and culture. You can easily find them saying, "Every blessing, grace and victory of the scriptures has been accomplished and imputed to me. I just have to continue treading water and having the faith to believe it all".
Such is the language of the pious tourists.
It's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to truthfully testify about 'sinless perfection' (spiritual maturity) without first having the sure testimony of consciously being resurrected to a newness of life in the heavenly places.

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus", (Eph 2:6).
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ", (Phil 3:20)

Our Bible says: "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also", (Matt 6:21).
I would also like to remind:--- for where your citizenship is, there your conscious being will be also ---

mark s · Aug 18, 2012

Prentis said:
There are also many warnings that if we draw back, God has no pleasure in us... And 'he who endures to the end shall be saved'. Again, the matter is to take the whole counsel of scripture. The verses above do indeed describe the end of those who are God's, if they persevere. Some verses tell us of the end of things, others warn us as to what is necessary to arrive at this end, to attain the promises, and some verses do both. We must be careful not to pick and choose only the positive and forget the conditions.

This is just the point, Prentis, we have to look at it all.

And when there are clear Scriptures that specifically address our spiritual state, and our relationship with God, we have to use those to understand those that are less clear, or that do not make the same sort of specific statements.

And we must not take our understanding of one passage and use that as a reason to go to another passage, and say, "It says that, but it doesn't mean that!" If we do, we have denied Scripture, and how can we claim this as truth?

Now, let's look at a couple of these side by side.

Hebrews 10:35-39 ESV
(35) Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
(36) For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
(37) For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
(38) but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
(39) But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Colossians 3:1-4 ESV
(1) If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
(2) Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
(3) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
(4) When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Many people look at this passage in Hebrews as a statement that the righteous can "shrink back", or "cower", and be destroyed. Then it is taken from the possible to the actual, that righteous ones have in fact shrank back, and have died again to God.

The first thing I'd like to point out is that were this true, we would have a serious conflict with the Colossians passage, which makes simple plain declarations. If you have been raised with Christ, you have died with Him, and you will appear with Him in glory. NO conditions are included. Now, you assert that they are given elsewhere. But if that is true, and, in fact, true born again believers do in fact fail those conditions and are lost, then this passage becomes untrue.

Because it is inclusive. If you've raised with Him, you will appear with Him. Again, simple, declarative statements.

But let's look again at the Hebrews passage one more time.

The writer is not talking about the same person being the one who lives by faith and the one who shrinks back. This is easily seen in verse 39. It's a little easier to see directly in the Greek, but it still comes through in the English. There are those who shrink back, and there are those who have faith. Literally, it is saying there are those "of shrinking back", and those "of faith". We are those of faith. They are different people.

And understanding this, we can return to Colossians, and read it exactly how it is written, without having to deny it's simple truth.

This is an easy way of setting aside a hard warning and saying 'it's not for me'. As humans, the temptation to do this is great, but we must NOT give in. Is the warning to the Laodiceans also not for us? Are we beyond this?

This is exactly the danger I am trying to tell you about. We are not beyond falling... Much to the opposite, we are in great danger of it. The enemy prowls, and the world would take us with it's current. The race must be run to it's end!

This is not "setting aside a hard warning", this is correctly understanding the Scripture. It all must harmonize, and if it doesn't, in our interpretation, that needs to be a big red flag that something is wrong. It is all true, word for word, but we have to understand what it says.

Otherwise we are claiming our own justification, a self-justification, before God's final word.

1 John 5:9-13 ESV
(9) If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
(10) Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
(11) And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
(12) Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
(13) I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

While I've called attention to certain parts of this passage, the entire passage is important.

Yes, that would be an example of an experience with God. It could be anything, a touch from God, new birth, God cleansing us... Is this the end of our walk? No, it is the beginning, it is entering the gate. We must then walk the way.

To be clear, I am talking about people who have received what is said here:

John 1:11-13 ESV
(11) He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
(12) But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
(13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Peter 1:22-23 ESV
(22) Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,
(23) since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If you interpret "fall" as "lose salvation", or become "un-born-again" (something completely foreign to Scripture), you once again have a conflict with a number of other passages. Since this is not exactly specified, we should again use the clearly stated Scriptures to help us to understand those that are not as specific.

When we are reading, make your calling and election sure, this is like Paul writing "examine yourself to see you are in the faith". Don't be fooling yourself into thinking that some emotional reaction to the Gospel is a true saving faith when it's not. But that in no wise should be understood in contradiction to those Scriptures that tell that you can know you have eternal life.

Love in Christ,
Mark

dragonfly · Aug 18, 2012

Hi Mark,

Don't you understand, that there are some people who started well, but who do stop believing in God - in Jesus Christ - in the power of the Holy Spirit - to bring them through all future trials to the final trial, our natural death? In other words, a person who was once in a state of 'being believing' departs in their heart from the Lord, and comes into a state of 'being unbelieving'. This happened to all but two Israelites, in the wilderness.

Look at 1 Corinthians 14:32. It puts into words something of the relationship between 'I' - the controller, and, what 'I desire'. I can rule over my desires. As a Christian, I have given God permission to change my desires, and I have accepted the consequence of being in subjection to His desires, to bring co-operatively, my consciousness of desires into line with His; to yield my desiring capacity in such a way that HIs desires are what I give the singleness of my heart to fulfil, or, to have fulfilled in me by Him.

But, at any time, I can withdraw my co-operation with God, to my own temporal, or, eternal detriment. Gal 6:7, 8.

It's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to truthfully testify about 'sinless perfection' (spiritual maturity) without first having the sure testimony of consciously being resurrected to a newness of life in the heavenly places.

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus", (Eph 2:6).
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ", (Phil 3:20)

Our Bible says: "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also", (Matt 6:21).
I would also like to remind:--- for where your citizenship is, there your conscious being will be also ---

I really don't like the term 'sinless perfection'. Too many denominational controversies have surrounded it.

Can we find a more scriptural way to explain that place of peace with God where we sense a kind of cruising in His will?

mark s · Aug 18, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Mark,

Don't you understand, that there are some people who started well, but who do stop believing in God - in Jesus Christ - in the power of the Holy Spirit - to bring them through all future trials to the final trial, our natural death? In other words, a person who was once in a state of 'being believing' departs in their heart from the Lord, and comes into a state of 'being unbelieving'. This happened to all but two Israelites, in the wilderness.

Hi dragonfly,

I'm talking about people who have been born again - regenerated - which is something that only happened after Jesus' resurrection. So to use the Israelites in the wilderness as an example of people who have been reborn and fell away is not correct. They were a people who with their lips drew near, but not with their hearts, and never entered the rest.

There are the example, as in Hebrews, of those who would believe.

The letter to the Hebrews is exactly that. It was written to the Hebrew people who were clinging to the Old Covenant, to bring them into the new covenant. And it compares those who persisted in the works of the Law instead of believing into grace to those who would not enter the promised land, and receive rest, but wandered in the wilderness until they died.

Who are the people who are born again, who have died again? Where do we see them in Scripture, identified as such? People say it can happen, but the Bible says something different.

1 John 2:18-19 ESV
(18) Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
(19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

This is, once again, a very simple and plainly stated passage.

There are people who are among the Christians, thought of as Christians, but not actually Christians. And you only really know who they are when they leave, and then it becomes clear. If they were true Christians, they would remain Christians. Since they left, it shows that they were not true Christians.

In the parable of the sower, there is the seed that fell in the rocky soil. Listen to what Jesus says:

Matthew 13:20-21 ESV
(20) As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
(21) yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

This is a person who has an emotional experience. They here the Gospel, get happy over it, think to themself, "this is great!" But the going gets rough, and they realize . . . this isn't me. And they fall away. But they had no root in themself. The Word made them feel good, but didn't get inside them. The afflictions showed the reality, they they had not truly believed and received.

Compare this to what Peter wrote:

1 Peter 1:3-7 ESV
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(4) to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
(5) who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(6) In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,
(7) so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The genuineness of your faith is demonstrated by you endurance through trials.

Two people "believe" in Jesus. Both are tested by afflictions. One falls away, they never had true faith. One endures, because their faith is true.

These are the teachings of Scripture.

Look at 1 Corinthians 14:32. It puts into words something of the relationship between 'I' - the controller, and, what 'I desire'. I can rule over my desires. As a Christian, I have given God permission to change my desires, and I have accepted the consequence of being in subjection to His desires, to bring co-operatively, my consciousness of desires into line with His; to yield my desiring capacity in such a way that HIs desires are what I give the singleness of my heart to fulfil, or, to have fulfilled in me by Him.

But, at any time, I can withdraw my co-operation with God, to my own temporal, or, eternal detriment. Gal 6:7, 8.

1 Corinthians 14:26-33 ESV
(26) What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
(27) If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
(28) But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
(29) Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
(30) If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.
(31) For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,
(32) and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
(33) For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

I don't think this passage is given to teach that someone can withdraw from their sonship of God, and revert in their nature from regenerate to unregenerate. Would you not agree?

This passage is to teach that God does not "overwhelm me" in a spiritual gift, that I become "out of control". He wants us to serve in an orderly way, each waiting their turn, and giving respect for others, so all can contribute, and tells us that we are able to do that.

I would say that as a Christian, we have come to God to be changed. This is repentance, metanoia - an exchanged mind. We recognized that our flesh mind was death, and have come to God for a new mind, and He was given us the mind of the spirit.

Phillipians teaches us that God works in us both to will (to want to do) and to do (to actually accomplish) what pleases Him. It does not say that we help Him to change us. The Bible does teach that we implement the changes He's made.

Galatians 6:7-8 ESV
(7) Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
(8) For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

You make application of this verse to the born again, that the born again will die again if they sow to the flesh, is that right?

Yet does it actually say this? How do we define the one who sows to the flesh? Who is this person from a Biblical standpoint?

It says, the one who sows to the flesh, but who is this one? You would say a true born again believer. Yet Scripture does not make such a plain statement. Does a child of God sow to their flesh, as this speaks of? Or is this the person who had not beleived in God's grace, the theme of Galatians, and instead seeks to be make perfect by the flesh? All you can get through the flesh is corruption.

If this is the child of God who does not reap eternal life, then the passage in Colossians, the passage, in 1 John, just to name two, are not true for them. Listen to this: If this passage means what you say it means, then other passages become UNTRUE.

I really don't like the term 'sinless perfection'. Too many denominational controversies have surrounded it.

Can we find a more scriptural way to explain that place of peace with God where we sense a kind of cruising in His will?

I chose to use this term for a very particular reason, to discuss a very specific topic.

The topic is whether or not Christians might sin, without becoming "unsaved". Do you have to live in Sinless Perfection to be a true born again Spirit fill Christian? Some say yes, and it is to those this thread is primarily directed.

Some say that this is to be our goal, and that is enough. And of those, some have the expectation of actually attaining to that, and some say they have at times, then not at times, but that doesn't mean they are no longer saved.

Some have the understanding that perfect sinlessness is not guaranteed for this life in this flesh body, but that we will sin less and less as we mature in Christ, while knowing that even if we do sin, that God's provision covers even this. This describes me.

John the Apostle wrote that when we see Him, then we will be like Him. Peter spoke of when the day will dawn, and the morning star rises in our hearts. And of course, Jesus is that Morning Star. They both looked forward to this, as do I.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Prentis · Aug 18, 2012

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Is Peter speaking of an 'imaginary possibility'? Is he babbling about things that never happen to us, because we are different?

Or is Peter speaking of a reality, something he knows happens, and is possible, for me, and for you?

You decide.

mark s · Aug 18, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi haz,

Do you understand what Paul is saying in Romans 5? I think not, so, I'm going to share from Young's Literal Translation.

Romans 5:12 '... even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death;

and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

13 for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;

14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression,

who is a type of him who is coming.

Looking at verse 13 first, Paul is repeating what he mentioned in Romans 4:15 for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither [is] transgression. So, I agree with you that Paul did say that where there is no law, no sin is being recorded against us.

Hi dragonfly,

I'd like to add a note on this.

There is the matter of imputed sin, and there is the matter of actual sin. Before the Law was given, sin was not imputed. The only law that had been given was don't eat from that tree. And after the garden was closed to man, no one could, so no one could violate the one law that had been given.

But just the same people still died because sin kills.

And as you've pointed out, twice Paul has stated a principle, sin is only accounted under law, without law there is no transgression of the law.

Since Scripture teaches that we are dead to the Law, that the Law is done with us, therefore, we no longer transgress that Law.

It's like saying I've broken the tax laws of China. Well . . . I live and earn my money, and spend it, in the USA. I am not subject to the tax laws of China. Neither am I subject to the Mosaic Covenant of Law.

Paul fully expects to see a dynamically changed lifestyle once a person is 'under grace'. It is most certainly not a notional righteousness.

The believer who has genuinely been grafted into the death of Christ, is free from the law of sin and death.

But, unless they live as if they are free from the law of sin and death, by not sinning - as a practical expression of having been filled to overflowing with the resurrection life of Christ, not only God, but anyone who knows them, is fully entitled to form their own conclusions, that ... they are still in bondage to sin.

A changed life? Certainly! But if true Christianity means that we completely and fully cease from all sin - Sinless Perfection - then why waste perfectly good ink and paper to write that we have an Advocate, even Jesus Christ the Righteous, if we do sin. If John was writing to Christians, well, the Christians don't sin, we don't need an advocate.

Why does Paul bother to say that Jesus is interceding for us? What intercession is neccesary? We no longer sin!

Why does Paul write to the Galatian believers, If you see your brother taken in a fault, restore him gently, with meekness considering yourself, lest you also be tempted. If he's caught in a fault, you could be two, you're both lost in unbelief, and what you need to do is get born again, so you will just stop sinning.

If true Christians never commit sins.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Prentis said:
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Is Peter speaking of an 'imaginary possibility'? Is he babbling about things that never happen to us, because we are different?

Or is Peter speaking of a reality, something he knows happens, and is possible, for me, and for you?

You decide.

Aren't you different? Does the Spirit of God live in you? Have you been regenerated with a new nature, created in God's Own pattern, in righteousness and true holiness? Does that make you different?

2 Peter 2:1-22 ESV
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
(2) And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
(3) And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
(4) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
(5) if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
(6) if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
(7) and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
(8) (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
(9) then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
(10) and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
(11) whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
(13) suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
(14) They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
(15) Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
(16) but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
(17) These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
(18) For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
(19) They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
(20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
(21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

The true and the false. The wicked and the righteous. Just like animals. They know about Jesus. They've even benefitted from their knowledge. But do these have a new nature, created patterned according to God, created in righteousness and true holiness?

They know the way of righteousness. But have they believed? Have they received, have they been born again? Regenerated?

Does knowledge save? The devil knows about God. Many people know what the Gospel teaches. But have they been born again?

And what of those who just use this knowledge to enrich themselfs? Who knowing the truth, fail to truly receive, and then return to their depravity?

Is this passage teaching that the born again die again? That those who are God's children will not be like Jesus when they see him? If so, then that passage becomes UNTRUE.

Or is this passage teaching us about those who learn, but aren't a new creation, who misuse God's word to destroy others, and enrich themselves?

What does the Bible say?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Prentis · Aug 18, 2012

The Bible says they knew the way of righteousness... Are we so special that we are above falling? So special that we will be accepted no matter our faults? Are we God's favorites? Does God have favorites?

Do we know the way of righteousness AND we are his favorites? What makes us above this fall that we are warned about? Special status?

The confusion that is being made is very simple; we confuse new birth with the end of our faith. New birth is but the beginning, the quickening of the spirit, but the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls.

Men have made this doctrine whereby those who are born again cannot fall... Then they have built their own standard for this, that they might declare themselves born again.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul is speaking of those ALREADY grafted in, who stand, that they fear, lest they fall.

Is Paul also speaking of vain imaginations? Is he instilling a fear of God that is unhealthy, because we are his favorites?

Paul and Peter, both so fearful, so religious, fearing God in vain... Good thing we have evolved since then!

mark s · Aug 18, 2012

Prentis said:
The Bible says they knew the way of righteousness...

They knew the way. But did they follow the way? Does just having knowledge save you? Of course not.

Are we so special that we are above falling?

I think that the message of Scripture is that God holds us special to Him.

Malachi 3:16-17 ESV
(16) Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another. The LORD paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and esteemed his name.
(17) "They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him.

Hebrews 13:5-6 ESV
(5) Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
(6) So we can confidently say, "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?"

So special that we will be accepted no matter our faults?

We are "accepted in the Beloved". In Christ we are received by God. Not by our own righteousness. Who does not have faults?

I have to run . . . I'll finish later.

Love in Christ,
Mark

dragonfly · Aug 18, 2012

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply.

My impression is that you don't understand that God does not want automatons. He wants us to consent to His love, over and over and over again.

Why do you think James writes about the effect of giving in to temptation? Do you think it's an exercise in semantics, or, is he actually warning the Christians to whom he is writing, that yielding to sin leads to death?

In another thread, I have pointed out that it was possible to keep the Mosaic Law perfectly. Paul claims this for himself, and Luke claims it for Zacharias and Elisabeth. My point in using the wilderness as an example, is that it doesn't matter which covenant you are under when you 'believe' God, as long as you comply with its terms. A person did not need to be born again to comply with the Mosaic Law. We have the impression that many have done, and they will be saved by their faith and obedience - because faith without obedience is meaningless. There are several major tragedies in the wilderness which NT writers use to warn their peer group and us, that God means what He says when He promises destruction to those who will not obey His voice.

I realise from reading your posts that you are wedded to the concept that 'regeneration' protects a person from all kinds of woes. You seem to be convinced that they will automatically want to grow on to complete maturity. But if you listen (as I do sometimes) to Carter Conlon of Times Square Church, he is constantly challenging the congregation to cease from sin! Obviously, more than a few need encouragement to walk in victory. I'm not saying that's wrong, but I want you to realise that many people don't walk in victory, and that has an effect on their relationship with God. I don't doubt you are entirely earnest and sincere in your hope to mature as a Christian, but some people find that challenge doesn't tick their boxes anymore, and they literally turn back to the world. It's a fact. Some people who continue to attend church have turned back to the world in their hearts

You may not like to acknowledge those facts, but Christians who would rather please themselves than God, are heading for spiritual disaster, unless they turn away from sin. Far be it for me to say they were never born again. In my view it's a total cop-out to resist all the scriptures which indicate that Christians were sinning in all kinds of different ways. Yes! Paul wrote those lists of do nots to Christians, and he specifically repeats what he'd told them when he was with them, that if they didn't cease from sin, they would not inherit the kingdom of God. Have you never read those verses?

As a matter of interest, how do you negotiate the fact that they were written to believers? Or, was Paul just being a bit of a tease by frightening Christians who didn't give up the sins of the flesh that they would not inherit the kingdom of God?

Who are the people who are born again, who have died again? Where do we see them in Scripture, identified as such? People say it can happen, but the Bible says something different.

The Bible says that people can endure to the end, but, it also indicates in many places that the only people who can be sure of salvation, are those who have done the will of our Father in heaven. We are exhorted to leave it to Jesus to judge who did and who didn't.

Phillipians teaches us that God works in us both to will (to want to do) and to do (to actually accomplish) what pleases Him. It does not say that we help Him to change us.

No. But, we do have to co- operate with Him. Matt 7:21, Mark 16:20, Acts 5:32, Rom 1:5, 28, Rom 8:13, Col 3:5, 6,

Galatians 6:7-8 ESV
(7) Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
(8) For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

You make application of this verse to the born again, that the born again will die again if they sow to the flesh, is that right?

Yet does it actually say this? How do we define the one who sows to the flesh? Who is this person from a Biblical standpoint?

It says, the one who sows to the flesh, but who is this one? You would say a true born again believer. Yet Scripture does not make such a plain statement. Does a child of God sow to their flesh, as this speaks of? Or is this the person who had not beleived in God's grace, the theme of Galatians, and instead seeks to be make perfect by the flesh? All you can get through the flesh is corruption.

If this is the child of God who does not reap eternal life, then the passage in Colossians, the passage, in 1 John, just to name two, are not true for them. Listen to this: If this passage means what you say it means, then other passages become UNTRUE.

Mark, there may be a few questionable verse in scripture which were added injudiciously, but we cannot be sure which they were. As a result, we have to believe the whole BIble is true. Nothing that one part of the Bible says, can invalidate another part. They all work together, and when they are applied appropriately, they are relevant. It's the Holy Spirit that does this, not us. We follow His lead.

Regarding whether born again Christians sow to the flesh, I'm astonished you've asked. Why do you think Paul moves on from listing the sins of the flesh in Galatians 5, to the analogy of a sowing two different kinds of seed? It's all the same thesis! To whom did he address the Galatian letter? To Christians! He clearly states that they had begun in the Spirit. Do you believe him? (I know you don't want to... but... this is a test!)

In closing this post, I would like to point out that the body of Christ functioning properly can make all the difference to a person going through with God every time they're in a tight corner with Him, or not, and that's why there is so much exhortation in the NT about how we should support one another, speaking in love, walking in love, walking worthy of the vocation to which we've been called. Gal 6:14

Prentis · Aug 18, 2012

mark s said:
They knew the way. But did they follow the way? Does just having knowledge save you? Of course not.

I think that the message of Scripture is that God holds us special to Him.

Malachi 3:16-17 ESV
(16) Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another. The LORD paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and esteemed his name.
(17) "They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him.

Hebrews 13:5-6 ESV
(5) Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
(6) So we can confidently say, "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?"

We are "accepted in the Beloved". In Christ we are received by God. Not by our own righteousness. Who does not have faults?

I have to run . . . I'll finish later.

Love in Christ,
Mark

So does this make Paul's words to be inaccurate, or unnecessary?

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

God can't cut us off? He won't?

It's impossible to start in the way but turn away?

Trekson · Aug 18, 2012

Hi Dragonfly, I have to take issue with this statement: "In another thread, I have pointed out that it was possible to keep the Mosaic Law perfectly. Paul claims this for himself, and Luke claims it for Zacharias and Elisabeth. My point in using the wilderness as an example, is that it doesn't matter which covenant you are under when you 'believe' God, as long as you comply with its terms. A person did not need to be born again to comply with the Mosaic Law. We have the impression that many have done, and they will be saved by their faith and obedience - because faith without obedience is meaningless."

That is so wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin. It was and has always been absolutely impossible to keep the Mosaic law perfectly at least as far as not sinning is concerned (except for Christ and maybe Enoch and Elijah). That was God's whole point and the reason He sent His Son to die on the cross for ALL MANKIND. Because as Paul continuously stresses in His teachings it was impossible to keep the whole law. That Zacharias and Elisabeth were blameless simply means they abided by the law in regards to the sacrifices. They offered the appropriate sacrifices for whatever sin they had in whatever manner was ascribed at the proper time for individuals as well as the annual "national" sacrifice. If a man could keep the law perfectly without sin there was no reason for Christ to come. Yes, their faith and obedience played a part but only because they properly performed the proper sacrifices. They had faith that the blood covering of the sacrifices gave them another year because God promised it would.

Paul declares himself the chiefest of sinners. 1 Tim. 1:15 - "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

As I pointed out before notice the present tense "I am", not I was. Even though he claims to have kept the law "perfectly", he knows he was and still is a sinner. Remember, "for all have sinned and fallen short..." He didn't start his sinful career after his conversion!!

When we accept Christ's sacrifice for us, it is for all our sins, past, present and future. It's not just up to the day of conversion. We can wake up every day blameless! We might sin unintentionally the next day but if we ask for forgiveness and believe 1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Then the next day we can wake up blameless again and we repeat this over and over until we receive our glorified bodies. Sometimes we can go several days without sinning, maybe even longer but sooner or later we're going to slip up and that's ok. God knows and understands and has provided a remedy for those situations. And no this is not a free "keep on sinning card". God judges us by the thoughts and intent of our hearts.

It's always nice to remember that it was AFTER David's failure with Bathsheba and Uriah, that God said "He (David) was a man after His own heart!" That's how perfect His forgiveness is.

Sinless Perfection?

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