The hidden things of God

Hi Arnie,

I hope - in view of your latest post in this thread - you will also look for Matthew's references to Isaiah's prophecies in his gospel, and, you will search Isaiah (in particular) for God intentions towards the Gentiles.

Remember, Genesis 3:15. It was always in God's heart to bring a saviour to the whole human race to defeat the effects of what the serpent had done.

This comes out again in God's covenant with Abraham, in which 'all the nations of the earth will be blessed'. Jesus Christ came in fulfilment of that covenant with Abraham, as Paul shows in Galatians 3:14, which I hope will show you that while John 4:22 is true, they were a stepping stone to God's greater intention, which John and Paul show us was established in Him from the foundation of the world. Eph 3:15, Acts 17:28

Also note: Paul was not alone in needing his own revelation about how the Gentiles were to be accepted into the New Covenant as part of God's continuing dealings with Israel. Peter needed the same revelation. Imagine those two discussing what God had shown them, and being reassured that they were on the right track! Hallelujah!

This is why Paul never writes of the revelation he had, as being to him alone. He always writes that it was given to His 'apostles' plural, and he includes the prophets. Ephesians 3:5 His point in mentioning his own revelation, is that he had indeed had the same revelation as Peter, and was now obeying the Lord in preaching to Gentiles (as prophesied to him by Ananias in Acts 9).

Since the nation of Israel rejected Jesus

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If only you would qualify such statements with the facts, Richard, a good bit of what you say would sound better.

The fact is, the NT records that the entire Church contained only descendants of Jacob, and proselytes, until Acts 10.

Hi Richard,

How can Paul say " that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life" if he was not the first?

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I have not said he was not the first to show all longsuffering as a pattern to those who would believe on Christ for everlasting life.

If you take 'first' in that sentence to mean anything other than Paul's meaning, you are adding to scripture. And he was indeed treated very badly by the unbelieving Jews, as you know. Yes, James was put to death quite early, but he was not repeatedly flogged over a period of years, first, as well as all the other things Paul suffered.

Note: It is an assumption that the words "holy apostles and prophets" means those "apostles and prophets" in the O.T.. If it does then how can it be said that "in other ages was not made known to the sons of men?" Why would it say "it has now been revealed if it had been reveal earlier?

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I have never said 'holy apostles and prophets' means those in the OT. That's your assumption.

Paul is referring to the apostles of the New Testament for sure, but the prophets most likely include those in the OT as well as the New. Amos 3:7, Eph 4:11, Acts 2:17, Acts 21:9, 1 Cor 14:1, 3.

Further on the matter of prophecy, the conversation which Ananias had with the Lord in Acts 9 falls into that category. It is true to say that he knew about Paul's mission to the Gentiles before Paul did. (That was at least one of the spiritual giftings in operation.)


Regarding your claim that different gospels were preached by Jesus and Paul,

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel to Abraham,

which gospel did God preach to Abraham? Please answer.


Using the NKJ as you have, I note you add in the extra words from the English, which are not in the original Greek. This adds confusion!!

Gal 2:7
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as for the circumcised to Peter
8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),


The important thing in these two verses is less that the word 'gospel' is implied at the end of v 7, but that 'He who worked effectively' in Peter... also worked effectively in Paul.

This is precisely what Paul says elsewhere - notably Eph 3:7 with reference to Eph 1:19, 20. Eph 4:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

You will note that Paul does not discriminate between the Jewish and Gentile saints in the churches anywhere.



I hope you also noted in a previous post... that...
a good number of Greeks who believed the [one] gospel, heard it from Paul in a synagogue.



Here, Paul is explaining (to the Ephesians) that God by the Spirit gave ministries and gifts to the Church.
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of

14 That we be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and]

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the
effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love.



Romans 12:4 For as we [Jews and Gentiles] have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us,

7 Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teaches, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorts, on exhortation... '



1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man [no discrimination between Jew and Gentile here] speaking by the [one]

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers]

11 But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many,

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free;


Is that Paul saying 'whether Jews of Gentiles'... [we] have been all made to drink into one Spirit?

This must be the same Holy Spirit that Jesus told His disciples to wait for in Jerusalem, which endued them with the [one] promise of the [one] Father of all - the power from on High. This was the same Holy Spirit which Paul received when his fellow Israelite, Ananias, prayed for him....


Seriously, Richard, your case is far from proven. Paul and Peter both included Gentiles in their definiton of Israel under the New Covenant. I've shown you that in another post. Peter wrote to Gentile Christians scattered away from Jerusalem and Israel, and Paul never once discriminates in favour of Gentiles, although he explains clearly that Israelites have had the advantage of God's word over centuries, and laments that they still don't want to receive it.

His warnings at the end of Romans 11 are valid, for Gentiles not to get puffed up against unsaved Israelites, but to love them; but, the weight of scripture in the OT which informed Israelites that they were to be the kindling to light the fire of God in Gentiles is obvious.

Only because Israelites were busy with their idolatries and rebellions against God, where they didn't even listen to His word for themselves in their own generation, did they miss this. It is easy for an objective observer and reader like yourself, to see that God had from Eden, intimated His intentions - long before Jacob was born, to save mankind through one Man.

The Jews knew they were waiting for Him, and some did recognise Him - John the Baptist and his disciples. John 1:35 - 41.

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Another Dispensationalist brought this verse to my attention elsewhere on CyB today,

Acts 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

And it reminded me of these.

1 Timothy 6:'.. These things teach and exhort.
3 - 5 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words - the words of our Lord Jesus Christ - and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.



What do you think of that?


Paul instructed Timothy to teach 'the words of our Lord Jesus Christ'.


In respect to these words, and your suggestion that Jesus had set up His kingdom on earth before ascending, how do you explain the apostles' question to Him and His reply, just before He left them finally?

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

Why were they still looking for the kingdom if it had already come?

Why were they taught to pray for God's kingdom to come on earth, if it had already come?

Hi Richard, Your words, "Many on this forum, believe the book of James when it says "faith without works is dead" A book that plainly says it was written to the Jews who we`re under the Law of Moses (James 1:1). Therefore they believe they must have their own works instead of trusting in the work that Jesus has already done. This will send many to hell."

I believe this to be an inaccurate conclusion of what "faith without works is dead" means. No, we don't "depend" on our works for salvation but it's not an "either or" proposition. We all have a job to do within the body of Christ. We will be judged on how faithfully we did those "jobs" and we will either gain or suffer loss of reward depending on how well we obeyed Christ. It's not a salvation issue, it's a rewards issue. People of faith simply do "good works". It kinda becomes part of our new man's DNA. It's just the natural reflection of the Christ within us, who spent His whole life going around doing "good". James is just saying that if people can look at us and not see the Christ in us than maybe we should rejuvenate our faith so they can!

dragonfly said:

Also note: Paul was not alone in needing his own revelation about how the Gentiles were to be accepted into the New Covenant as part of God's continuing dealings with Israel. Peter needed the same revelation. Imagine those two discussing what God had shown them, and being reassured that they were on the right track! Hallelujah!

This is why Paul never writes of the revelation he had, as being to him alone. He always writes that it was given to His 'apostles' plural, and he includes the prophets. Ephesians 3:5 His point in mentioning his own revelation, is that he had indeed had the same revelation as Peter, and was now obeying the Lord in preaching to Gentiles (as prophesied to him by Ananias in Acts 9).

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( !! Out of the blue !! )

Unexpected Blessing True !!

Older Post, Yet New !!

Revelation to and through !!

All Ekklesia Today ANEW, TOO !!