Circumcision of the heart

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Episkopos

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Hi Episkopos,



Then why would God ask them to? He is not in the habit of giving them commands they could not obey.



But we know from Zacharias and Elisabeth, and Paul, that it was possible to keep the law perfectly.

Brother, there must be a better way of phrasing what you mean, so that what you write is biblically accurate?

OK! Why would God give the children of Israel the 10 commandments knowing that it is impossible to do this without the power of the resurrection of Jesus. God was ANGRY at the people for not wanting to have a direct relationship with Him. The people wanted Moses to intercede for them. So God gave then His standard and said...try it on your own!!!!!


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 

MTPockets

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OK! Why would God give the children of Israel the 10 commandments knowing that it is impossible to do this without the power of the resurrection of Jesus. God was ANGRY at the people for not wanting to have a direct relationship with Him. The people wanted Moses to intercede for them. So God gave then His standard and said...try it on your own!!!!!

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Hi! ''Episkopos'
I've read a lot of your comments/posts in this Forum and have been grateful and blessed by many.
But .... ahhhh, on this one .... yuh seem to have taken a bit of a detour.
I was somewhat astonished to read your opinion about the origin of the Law where you wrote, "God was ANGRY at the people for not wanting to have a direct relationship with Him. The people wanted Moses to intercede for them. So God gave then His standard and said...try it on your own!!!!!".
Don't yuh think that this is a bit ... ummmmm ... much? That your opinion is a bit excessive?

We should first acknowledge that both an awareness of God and the ethical laws (creation laws:love your neighbor) are inborn to every man. This is because every man is born in the image of God. (Only the regenerated/reborn opportune to be "changed into His likeness").

Yes, it is indeed true that the entrance of sin at the Fall changed everything. The inborn laws of God became darkened and lost. People who entered into a corrupt walk on earth were no longer familiar with the inborn laws of God. They became unable to have love for one another anymore. This degenerating process is plainly evident in the Bible narrative; for instance: with people like Cain and Lamach.
Cain and Lamach are examples of all those who are filled with violence. God is no longer able to reach such people and they become useless for His eternal purposes and plans. Such was the total lawlessness in the days of Noah, that the gateway opened wide for the activities of lawless spirits of violence to manifest in the destruction of the Flood.

Yet God started anew. This time with Noah and his family. But soon Noah's descendants also lost their moral sense. Then God again looked for a righteous and lawful person in whom the inborn laws of God where still functioning. He found Abraham. God set Abraham apart in order to bring forth a people who would "...preserve righteousness on this earth and whose heart would seek after God", (Gen 18:19).

After a 400 year stay in Egypt, it became apparent that this chosen people had lost every sense of rightness in their lives. Then God found Moses who obeyed Him and heard and did what the voice of his conscience dictated. However, In the wilderness, it became apparent that most of the people did not appreciate their God-given health and freedom. The people proved themselves to be a proud and complaining generation; a people that longed for Egypt, even though they had been in slavery there.

During their journey in the wilderness, God thought of a means to cause that inherent inborn law to become alive again in the hearts of His people. He gave them the Law on the Mount of Sinai; especially, the Ten Commandments which He had written Himself. The Ten Commandments served to revive the inborn laws again.

The critical thing to notice about Deut 5:22 is that it says that God added nothing to these laws. This means that God did not add any conditions for punishment to the Tablet words. They remained as a worthy invitation and not beyond their reach.
So, I hardly think it could be stated as you wrote, "God was ANGRY at the people for not wanting to have a direct relationship with Him".
I give you this advice: time after time, we wrongly give God things which do not belong to Him; and, time after time, we erroneously expect that God should give us something which He does not have.

It says in Deut. 30:11-15, "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. It is not in heaven, that you should say; Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it,"

This Law is found in the mind of normal natural people, and oftentimes in the heart as well, Rom 2:14 mentions this, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them."

The people had to meditate and be busy with this Law day and night. Then the people's mind and heart would change and the person's spirit would once again be able to live and flourish; it would once again become a carrier of the laws of God. This is how the Lord had desired it.
But the conscience of this unruly people soon became seared shut. The Psalmist lamented, "If only people had acted according to my instructions". Later Paul wrote in 1Tim 1:8, "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully". This means that the Law is good for those who remain busy with it in his mind and in his heart. This is also in keeping with the prophet David saying in Psalm 40:8, "I delight to do Thy will O my God; Thy Law is within my heart"

It also says about Zacharias and Elizabeth that they were both righteous before God and were, "walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord", (Luke 1:6). It says in Galatians 3:19 that, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator".
The Law has been a help in bringing the inborn laws to life again, but it did fail. The Law that was to result in life actually proved for many to result in death, (Rom 7:10). In other words, the Law had a negative effect for those in bondage and in slavery to sin because the Law does not reckon with the powers of evil and neither does it have power to withstand and triumph over them..

The principal of the inborn law is love towards God and love for ones neighbor. The very first thing John the Baptist, Jesus and later on also Peter (on the day of Pentecost) and Paul preached, was .that people would turn to God. Then the innate law is no longer a strange element in one's life; because the delivered and free person is created "to do good works", (Eph 2:10). This will then benefit his neighbor as well.
In his Law, God first of all makes a person attentive to the fact that he should have no other gods before him. For there is only one good God whom he loves. The Sabbath was given to man so that he would not be busy with natural things all the time. It would give man time to focus his attention on God and His Law. Everyone had a free day for this, even the slaves. The second table of the Law concerns itself with the love for ones neighbor.

Mankind was to form close unity: one people, one law, one faith. Therefore a child would guard his good relationship with his parents. He would honor and obey them. Man would take good care of each other's life and therefore he would not kill his fellow man. Husbands and wives would love each other wholeheartedly and therefore would be careful not to break the marriage vows. People would treasure each others good name and would not bear any false witness against it. In this way, while pondering the law of the Lord, the thoughts of God where to come into ones mind again, this time from the outside in. Then with great effort and dedication they would finally come to doing the law with all of one's heart.

Those people who loved the Law and who did them where the righteous after God's heart. God could only have contact with these and they formed the rest of humanity with whom God could develop fellowship and continue with, even though His father heart cried for His other children.

When Jesus appeared on the scene, the people were busy studying the Law, but on an earthly directed level. While figuring it all out, many books and instructions were added that the average normal people could not adhere to. The under-developed and under-privileged people were written off by the religious leaders of the day, and delivered up to evil spirits, "But this multitude which does not know the Law is accursed", they said, (John 7:49).

Practicing the law consisted of external things such us: strict tithing, the bringing of sacrifices, keeping the stipulations set for keeping the Sabbath; what you could and could not do on that day. Other items were the long formal prayers, innumerable ceremonies and the prayer belts and chains to which they attributed an occult value. And yet, in spite of this lifeless form of worship, the multitudes looked up to the religious establishment of their day.

When Jesus began His ministry, He did not speak about keeping all these kinds of regulations that had nothing to do with the innate, inborn law of the heart at all. That is why people began to put a question mark behind His faithfulness to the Law. They thought what Jesus was doing was abolishing the law and the prophets; the very people who had so often in the past told them to keep the Law.

What Jesus' preaching was doing however, was bringing His hearers in contact with God after they were cleansed from their sin. His instructions and teachings about the kingdom of heaven, (which also included His view of the Law), were totally new. Through Him, "grace became so real that one could keep the law from a cleansed heart", (John 1:17). He brought a different awareness of God. He spoke of God who is only good. He taught how to keep the law and opened the eyes to the inborn law.

With Jesus, the time of restoration had begun. Whoever believed in Him and would receive His Spirit, deliverance out of the hand of all his (spiritual) enemies. In this New Covenant the law was again written in the minds and the hearts. As such, the promise became fulfilled, "I will be a God to them and they will be My people whom I will gather in the heavenly Jerusalem".
We could say that the law was fulfilled on the tablets of the hearts in the kingdom of God.
Later on the apostle could write:"... in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit", (Rom 8:4),

The law of the Sinai was merely a help, a surrogate for the innate laws of God written on the spirit of every human being. The law was, "our tutor to lead us to Christ". Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but rather to let it shine forth with all clarity and meaning. Jesus was the end of the law; that is: its purpose or completion, (Rom 10:4).

However, in the visible world Jesus broke many ordinances. He permitted His disciples to gather wheat on the Sabbath. He healed a man on the Sabbath and made mud to put on a man's eyes on the Sabbath. He pronounced all foods clean because they did not defile a person on the inside. In so doing, Jesus made it easy for man in the natural world because His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

The present heaven and earth will pass away; including the world connected with the law of Sinai.
Everything becomes renewed/restored, the way God had created it. Before the restoration of all things is completed, even the smallest law of God will again function in man and in Creation.

The Jews looked for the meaning of the jot and the tittle and in doing so they came to all kinds of niggling regulations in the natural world. Jesus said, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others".
With their obsessive faithfulness to the little rules, they robbed man of their royal worth as a child of the living God, and made him a slave to the law. Paul wrote, "the present Jerusalem, is in slavery with her children", (Gal 4:25).

Jot and tittle are a picture of the smallest laws. However, those who function in the Kingdom of heaven cannot bypass even the smallest normalities of the inborn law of God. Heaven and earth may pass away, but the commandments of Jesus which concern the unseen world where one dwells with his heart, will never pass away. These words and commandments rest upon the fundamental law of life: love for God and love for ones fellowmen who is created in God's image. The tithing of the mint, dill and cummin is not as important as justice, mercy and faithfulness,. (Matt 23:23). Judgement and justice is the separation between good and evil. Mercy means the love one displays for his neighbor and faithfulness is the loyalty one displays towards God and his neighbor.
An admitted poor illustration: the innate/inborn laws of the kingdom of heaven are as parts of a machine. Not one little nut or bolt can go missing. It says, "your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame", (1Thess 5:23).

Jesus also said, "Not every one who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Farther who is in heaven", Matthew 7:21). "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven".

So, 'Episkopos', Jesus was the greatest in doing and therefore He is also the greatest in His instructions. And we are His followers!
 

dragonfly

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Hi MT,

I know you sometimes disappear from CyB for days at a time, so just want to say I do intend to comment on your posts... in due course.

Meanwhile, I've found another scripture linking humility - willingnes to be corrected - and circumcision of the heart.

Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass
which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

41 And [that] I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember...'
 

Hepzibah

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Why does this not apply to Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Boaz, David and the prophets not already named? I know they didn't have a new nature, but, they were walking in obedience to God, keeping His laws, pleasing Him rather than men, speaking His words and for the most part, feeding His flock. They were not 'stiff-necked' - any of them.


I believe that both covenants were in force from the begining. They are according to the two laws put into effect from eating of the fruit of the two trees. The `old` covenant is still in force today amongst those who are serving God from their human strength, albeit devotedly, but failing to keep the whole law which is only possible through the power of the HS which operates by faith alone because the law still stands - whoever sins dies and can only live if he has been circumcised in heart..

Those mentioned, had their hearts circumcised `in the Spirit` which means that they had their soul and spirit divided so that they could be dwelt within by the HS and be holy as He is holy. So they were in the new covenant which was made effective on the cross, but able to operate throughout time. This is why the scripture calls them holy. They came to a point when they knew that they had to submit their wills to the Lord God as they lost all confidence in the flesh in keeping Gods laws..
 

dragonfly

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Hi Hepzibah,

As you may have realised there are a great many varieties of gospel represented here on CyB, so although I may think I know what you mean - although I don't agree with some of it (you may as well know!) - I'm going to ask you to explain in a little more detail, if that's okay?

Also, I would request that you use scripture to show how it has influenced your understanding/interpretation. Many thanks. :)

I believe that both covenants were in force from the begining.

Which two covenants do you mean?
 
E

epouraniois

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I am reading, in this thread, about new covenant, among other things, BUT Christians have no covenant, only the called out people in the wilderness have a covenant. Non Hebrew people have no covenant. It's simply not in there. IN Romans, we are reading the final letter written during the Acts period. The purpose of all these letters written during that time are for Israel. Nearly 3 chapters of Romans are dedicated to explain how gentiles are only permitted to hear Israel's message 'to provoke Israel'.

Not until Israel is set aside as a nation, and the mystery made known (Eph 3:9), does any non Hebrew person have a message of their own. This truth needs to be thuroughly baked into our being.

In the covenant of promise, which is being touched upon in Rom.2, we are reading of a people who had promises connected with covenant, connected to Abraham. And the kingdom that the disciples inquired about in Acts 1, was still near, they could see it in the form of miracles because every individual Hebrew person was given a gunuine and bonified miracle. This the Hebrew people reading the letter would immediately call their mind to the OT teachings

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

The first chapter of Romans makes it dear that this message was first and foremost a Jewish message, it was to the Jew first.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

and again in ch2
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile

IN all the Acts period letters we find the writers talking about the offering coming to an end, that it wouldn't be held out for Israel for ever, and here the apostle is making it emphatic that they see this reality and receive the kingdom promised to their fathers, Hebrews all.

Again, only Hebrew people are called out ones into a covenant relationship with God. In the prison epistles we find letters written to gentiles, not by covenant, but by calling (Eph 1:4), and Abraham is never metioned, no longer do we find quotes from the OT - it's a different message to a different people. We should take care to not mix these things together that the Lord has made seperate.

Bless
 

Episkopos

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I am reading, in this thread, about new covenant, among other things, BUT Christians have no covenant, only the called out people in the wilderness have a covenant. Non Hebrew people have no covenant. It's simply not in there. IN Romans, we are reading the final letter written during the Acts period. The purpose of all these letters written during that time are for Israel. Nearly 3 chapters of Romans are dedicated to explain how gentiles are only permitted to hear Israel's message 'to provoke Israel'.

Not until Israel is set aside as a nation, and the mystery made known (Eph 3:9), does any non Hebrew person have a message of their own. This truth needs to be thuroughly baked into our being.

In the covenant of promise, which is being touched upon in Rom.2, we are reading of a people who had promises connected with covenant, connected to Abraham. And the kingdom that the disciples inquired about in Acts 1, was still near, they could see it in the form of miracles because every individual Hebrew person was given a gunuine and bonified miracle. This the Hebrew people reading the letter would immediately call their mind to the OT teachings

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

The first chapter of Romans makes it dear that this message was first and foremost a Jewish message, it was to the Jew first.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

and again in ch2
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile

IN all the Acts period letters we find the writers talking about the offering coming to an end, that it wouldn't be held out for Israel for ever, and here the apostle is making it emphatic that they see this reality and receive the kingdom promised to their fathers, Hebrews all.

Again, only Hebrew people are called out ones into a covenant relationship with God. In the prison epistles we find letters written to gentiles, not by covenant, but by calling (Eph 1:4), and Abraham is never metioned, no longer do we find quotes from the OT - it's a different message to a different people. We should take care to not mix these things together that the Lord has made seperate.

Bless

Does the name Richard Burger mean anything to you? ;)
 

Hepzibah

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Hi df

Which two covenants do you mean?

I mean the two different ways that God has dealt with His people. I quote Andrew Murray from The Two Covenants :


"In the Old Covenant man had the opportunity given him to prove what He could do, with the aid of all the means of grace God could bestow. That Covenant ended in man proving his own unfaithfulness and failure. In the New Covenant, God is to prove what He can do with man, all unfaithful and feeble as he is, when He is allowed and trusted to do all the work. The Old Covenant was one dependent on man’s obedience, one which he could break, and did break (Jer. xxxi. 32). The New Covenant was one which God has engaged shall never be broken; He Himself keeps it and ensures our keeping it: so He makes it an Everlasting Covenant."

So we have believers who are still stuck in the old covenant, thinking that they are sanctified by working in themselves and who do not believe those who say that it is possible to keep His law through faith alone.

Sorry if that is too brief I will go into more detail tomorow if you wish.
 

whitestone

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We should take care to not mix these things together that the Lord has made seperate.

Whoever told you that is not your friend epouraniois, unless you love snakes...

(Act 15:9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

(Rom 3:22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
 
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epouraniois

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I want to get into this with you. Look at this verse first:
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...

There it is, God speaks at different times with different messages to different people. Can we believe that? The Hebrew people were told to believe it, there it is, right there in the very first verse of a letter written to the Hebrews.


If we are honest with ourselves, we know in the OT, the Hebrew people were called out and seperated from every nation in every way. It was like 8 years after Peter stood up w/the 12 that he first spoke to a non Jew, and he didn't want to do it! Said he would not do it. It was against their law!

You have touched upon a subject that seems very dear to the Lord, we read:

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Now there is much in these verses, including who the gentiles were the seed of, during the Acts, who were permitted to hear Israel's message.

I agree, to the Lord, there was no difference, and for Israel, who were in a major upheeval because gentiles could hear their message without taking on the full burden of the law. The same Lord over all...unto all...

Not only does the apostle spend 3 chapters showing that gentiles had no message of their own, but were, as per OT prophecy, 'provoke Israel to emmulation'. They were used to provoke Israel. Now, at the end of Acts, 28:28, we read, Be it known unto you, that the salvation of God is sent to the nations (gentiles) and they shall here.

In the very next letter, Ephesians, Paul reflects on that fact. He is writing to gentiles, the prisoner of the Lord for you gentiles, reads Eph 3:1, explaining:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Well, when is this, but now? It is emphatic grammatically. It speaks of everything the apostle had been writing before in ch1, the blessings are not in Abraham here, he isn't mentioned, rather, they are in Christ. The blessings are not on the earth as they were in just the previous letter (Romans), no, they are in the heavenly places. See Eph. 1:3. Don't get mad at me, go read the verses. The blessings are not in stock and in store, they are all spiritual blessings. Paul goes to great lengths to make sure you know what he is talking about, he says so in Eph 3:9:

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

NOw there is alot to learn in those verses.

1, the word nsearchable is not accurate, but we have no English equivilent. I would make up a new word, untrackable. That is to say, there is no trace of this fellowship (dispensation) of the mystery, in the OT. IT's not there. Paul tells us it was 'hid in God', and, 'hid from ages and from generations but now made known'. When? After Israel's blindess at the end of Acts!
2, in v 10 we read that God has a plan for the heavenly places. In Fact, it is in these prison epistles that, for the first time in all of Scripture, that there is a citizenship in the heavenly places and that God is doing work there. The OT is only about those on the earth.

It is easy to put this into proper perspective. We have tons of verses that state, the meek shall inherit the earth. So that is one sphere of blessing. Later, we find out that Abraham didn't build anything on the land given to him, he looked for a BETTER hope, a BETTER resurrction, a BETTER...things that accompany salvation, BETTER testament, BETTER covenant, which was established upon BETTER promises, etc, etc.

If it is better, then it cannot be the same. a BETTER country that is heavenly. And we learn about this more in Revelation, as we harken back to Ez. and the heavenly city. Yes, Abraham knew something the meek did not know. He is listed with the overcomers who have resurrection glory and hope in the heavenly city. That is the 2nd sphere of blessing,

Next, after Israel is blinded and the revelation of the mystery body is made known (in the prison epistles), we find one more sphere of blessing, and it's not on the earth, nor in the heavenly city (which comes down to the earth), but it is far above all heavens where Christ sitteth.

These are differences the Lord has made. My suggestion that we not mix them up as if there is no difference is wholly Scriptural.

Bless
 

dragonfly

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Hi epouraniois,

It's late here so I will keep my post very short. I hope you will read through these verses, and if possible, read my post near the end of the first page in RichardBurger's thread which is called The Hidden Things of God in the Debate forum. Perhaps others will comment, too. :)


Gen 3:15,

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved
of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


Paul quoted the above verse in Acts 13. See below. Luke 24:44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49. Matt 28:19, 20. Acts 1:12, 13, 14.


Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.


Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you:
but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying],
I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.



Isaiah 6:9 And he [the Lord] said,
Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and
make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and convert, and be healed.

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered,
Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and [there be] a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13 But yet in it [shall be] a tenth, and [it] shall return, and shall be eaten:
as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when they cast [their leaves:
so] the holy seed [shall be] the substance thereof.



Isaiah lived 700 years before Christ.

Added -

So, epouraniois, do you see the two things of which these scriptures inform us?

1) That Jesus commanded all His disciples to preach to all nations, and Peter would have been aware on the day of Pentecost, that he was preaching to an international crowd who were going home soon.

We can have no idea if Gentiles became Christians in those countries, before Cornelius did.


2) God commanded Isaiah to declare the curse (in Isa 6:9) upon Israel because of her idolatries.

This same curse was at work when Jesus was preaching, and yet, Paul points out in 2 Cor 3:14, 15, 16, that if an Israelite/Jew turns his heart to the Lord, his spiritual sight, hearing and understanding is restored, and he may be healed (saved).
 
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epouraniois

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http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16479-what-is-the-purpose-of-taking-communion/page__st__90#entry162992

I responded to you on the wrong thread, but it was appropriate there as well, please click on the link above.
 

IanLC

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The circumcision of the flesh is and can be painful and that pain increases with the age you decide to get it done. That's why most people have their baby boys circumcsied as infants. The same with the circumcision of the heart. The quicker or earlier we allow God to circumcise and regenerate us the less painful the process or event (however way you believe it) of heart circumcision will be. The later and the more we allow the foreskin which represents sin to grow the more painful and difficult the process of freeing us from that old "nasty" and "unhealthy" sinful nature and being regenerated and made new into the "clean" and "healthy" nature of righteousness. Jesus gives us initial sanctification at the point we accept His atonement for our sins and He continues through the work of the Holy Ghost to sanctify us progressively in or Christian walks. When He complete His work He will entirely and full sanctify us! So when we decide to allow God to work He will! The later we wait to fight diseases the stronger the disease is and harder for us to fight it (SIDE NOTE: Yet what the medicine won't do the miracle will! If you are sick in your body Jesus is still working miracles and healing bodies!) the same in the spirit the longer we wait to allow God to clean us out the harder it will be! But it will be done! Regardless of when we come to Christ and how hard it is for us to circumcise our hearts the key point is that if our confession of faith is true then we will be circumcised in or hearts! Jesus will complete the work He started!
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the LORD will do wonders among you." (Joshua 3:5)[/background]
 

Faithful

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In the Righteousness thread started by JohnnyB, which had been discussing Romans 2, I began to question who exactly had 'circumcision of the heart', as I'd always assumed it could be only in Christians.

If anyone reading can understand the question, then, I'm interested in your thoughts. :)

Here is part of a post (I wrote) outlining what stumped me.



'These verses at the end of Romans 2, seem to be referring to righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ (because of the mention of circumcison of the heart), even though Paul has not finished making his case which concludes at Romans 3:23.

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.


So this raises a question I had never considered - and have never heard preached upon - namely.... does this mean that those who kept the law flawlessly (acknowledging their sins, bringing their tithes and offerings with mourning over 'the sin' in their hearts Eze 9:4), were 'circumcised in heart' - were not 'stiff-necked' (idolatrous, proud)

Deuteronomy 10:16, 2 Chron 30:8, Acts 7:51?


And yet still, this was not the circumcision of Jesus Christ? Col 2:11


Look at this as a parallel, please:

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.'



28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Romans 2:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]28 [/sup]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[sup]29 [/sup]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


He is not born a Jew of the flesh circumcision but he is a Jew inwardly of the heart by the power of the Spirit, not received by obeying the letter of the law.

In the Old Testament the Father taught...


Deuteronomy 30:6

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]6 [/sup]And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Christ shows by his commandments that the teachings of the Law and Prophets are summed up in two commandments.
Love God and love your neighbours as yourself.

God made a new covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-34.


Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]31 [/sup]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[sup]32 [/sup]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
[sup]33 [/sup]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
[sup]34 [/sup]And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


The old way was by obeying the law they were Jews outwardly they had a covenant and were the people of God.
But today they believe in Jesus Christ having removed the sin and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
He is the one who brought the truth to the Prophets and now to all humans in person.
No longer relying on the written word and obedience but the truth about Jesus Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit received through believing what God says.

It is no longer obeying the law from the outward point of view in the written way.. But living in the power of the Holy Spirit who changes us from within to love God and others. Galatians 5 is a good place to start.
Christ brought the baptism of the Holy Spirit to all those who believed. So the Holy Spirit was the person whom Holy Men of God received the word of God, from.
 
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dragonfly

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Hi UHCAlan and Faithful,

Thanks for your posts about the circumcision of Christ.

I'm not sure this is what Paul means at the end of Romans 2, although it could be. In the context of the chapter he is continuing his comparison between Jews and Gentiles, having been born under the law, or, not under the law.

This is why God's word about self-circumcision, in Deuteronomy (and elsewhere in the Pentateuch) seems appropriate.

.
Hi epouraniois,

http://www.christian..._90#entry162992

I responded to you on the wrong thread, but it was appropriate there as well, please click on the link above.

Thank you for the link. I've read your post there. Paul first started talking about going to the Gentiles back in Acts 13:46, 47, but if you continue reading Acts, you'll see he continued preaching in synagogues and leading Jews to the Lord as well as Gentiles. The last verse of Acts 28 says this about Paul's continuing ministry: 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Those words agree with something Paul himself wrote to Timothy:

1 Timothy 6:'.. These things teach and exhort. 3 - 5 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words - the words of our Lord Jesus Christ - and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.



There are natural explanations for all the perceived differences between Paul's preaching and that of other apostles, but they do not justify the additional claim that he was preaching a different gospel from the other apostles. All the this claim shows, is that those who make it have not read the rest of the New (and Old) Testament with understanding.

For instance, in Gal 3:8 'the gospel' is preached to Abraham by God Himself. How could that be a different gospel than Gen 3:15, or Gen 18:18, or Gen 26:4? By Gal 3:14 Paul has explained what this 'blessing' of the Gentiles is. Notice Paul's 'we', and John 4:22.

Over and above all this, is the unity of God's word, and all the statements Paul makes about Christ being the Head of one body,

Ephesisans 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Added to epouraniois,

There it is, God speaks at different times with different messages to different people.

This is not really what Hebrews 1:1 is saying. The emphasis is on God speaking God's word through different generations of prophets, the idea that God's word has a unity and a continuity about it that never changes.

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.​


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

On the topic of God's word, I'd like to add one further thought about circumcision of the heart as described in preceding posts in relation to Romans 2:28, 29... That when God speaks to us, He creates faith in us to fulfil the word. If He says, 'Go and sin no more', that creative word can be fulfilled in that person's life. If He says, 'Rise up and walk', that creative word can be fulfilled in that person's life.

Paul mentions it in 1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


There there is an interesting apposition in James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all [men] liberally, and upbraids not; and it shall be given him.

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: 10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. 11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withers the grass, and the flower thereof falls, and the grace of the fashion of it perishs: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

We could say, if any man lack humility, or meekness, let him ask of God that gives to all liberally and upbraids not; and it shall be given him. This is so important, that Jesus invites us to learn from Him. Matt 11:28 - 30.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.

The really practical application of meekness and humility before God is that His grace is effective in us.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Matthew 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [ie mourn over sin.]
5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
 
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epouraniois

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Greetings dragonfly,

"This is not really what Hebrews 1:1 is saying. The emphasis is on God speaking God's word through different generations of prophets, the idea that God's word has a unity and a continuity about it that never changes."


Why sure it is, ex, rv "God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,."

I would add, there are many many accounts of good news, many many years ago, the good news was to get on the boat, but later the good news was...and on and on.

Moses, inspired by God, wrote the law, and the law was sevier, death for picking up a stick on the Sabbath, while Paul, equally inspired by God, said to them, that if they worship days then Christ is of none affect. How can they both be equally inspired and have opposite messages? Hebrews Chapter 1 verse 1 responds to that question for the Hebrew people. Later, at the end of Acts, Israel is set aside (for a time) and the salvation of God sent to the nations (Acts 28:28), with a new message of a super heavenly calling far above all heavens. Read Ephesians, Colossians, Philipians, and 2nd Tim for instructions and practical outworking of them.

Certianly we can agree that messages to Jews only, then messages to Jews and Gentiles, then messages to Gentiles only, are differences. Certainly the 3 shperes of enjoyment are different. Meek, the earth, overcomers the heavenly city (both prophetic), whle the mystery body has different messages altogether. All equally inspired writings of instruction

1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Paul preached to each group. To the first born Israel, first. The OT Israelites have angels beneath them. They are told the saints shall judge angels [Cor]. A kingdom of Priests, destined to be above angels. Those in Ephesians are even above power, principalities, might, dominions, thrones, but angels are not mentioned. Different aspects of blessings. The epistle that is teaming with angels is the epistle to the Hebrews. The angelic ministry is never offered to the nations of Gentiles and heathen. From Abraham to the Acts of the Apostils there is angel ministry and angel intervention.

Now we have two callings, Israel and her adoption of the firstborn of nations on the earth, and to those of both Jew and Gentile who have excersized the same faith as their father Abraham, who look for a heavenly aspect of that particular promise. And now we have a third aspect of promise in adoption; another calling which is a bit higher still. And this calling is the church in the epistle of the Ephesians, which differs completely to the calling and to the promise and hope.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

We are told in Mathew’s Gospel that the meek shall inherit the earth. These cannot be the same as those who will sit down at the right hand of God. So this is a new aspect of blessings. These have “all spiritual blessings”, and they are “in heavenly” places.

Since this written Word -- "the Scripture of Truth" -- was thus complete (Col 1:25), God has not spoken directly or indirectly to mankind, either by Himself or by human agency. "The Silence of God" during this Dispensation is a solemn reality.

But He is going to speak again when this Dispensation comes to a close, and in Psalm 50 we are told what He is going to say when the silence is broken.
 

dragonfly

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Hi epouraniois,

Thanks for your thoughts on everything. Of course you have picked out differences, but the Holy One is unchanging, and all His word is in perfect agreement with His heart and mind.

To me, the different dispensation are not about people groups, but about God's intention to deal with sin in the hearts of men, for the sole purpose of our being received into full fellowship with Him, as prophesied many times over.

It is an error to suggest that 'the adoption' was primarily for Gentiles, as it is first on Paul's wish list for Israelites in Romans 9:4. Clearly, John and Paul would not have been able to write about it had they not both experienced and understood it in the light of OT revelation.



This is an interesting verse to add to this discussion.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed;
and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi MT,

I've just read through this short thread again, and am more sure than ever that 'self-circumcision' is about humility and obedience, without which genuine repentance cannot come forth from anyone's heart. In another thread (Christ will come again) the truth you were putting forth about being separated from the Old, has been put in a different way but amounting to an explanation of the waters of baptism - repentance - and washing by the word. (John 15:3)

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is simply this: the narrative of Jesus and the rich young ruler clearly indicates that Jesus came to save the righteous also. In my opinion, it's a rather murky distinction to claim, as 'Episkopos' evidently does, that the righteous are 'already whole'. The answer to the dilemma of 'Episkopos' is found in the verse saying, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect", (Heb 11:40).
I also struggle with that notion, because 'the righteous' were also waiting for the Lamb of God to be sacrificed.

Hebrews 9:15 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Did you ever notice that before? The Covenants are not in 'parallel' (although the Old foreshadows the New); they are contiguous, and with regard to time, they are linearly contiguous historically, and linearly contiguous in the life of anyone moving from their relationship with God being based on the Old, to the New. I understand it to mean that 'the promise of eternal inheritance', which was held out under the Old Covenant was brought to those who died under it, through the death of Christ and His resurrection - the spirits of just men made perfect (through their faith in His (coming) sacrifice).