Black and White and Abortion...

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Eltanin

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Aug 22, 2012
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I am starting this thread as a response and continuance of a discussion in another thread, because I did not want to further derail the topic...

This also involves a bit of personal testimony, and a good dose of personal opinion, I am not trying to make excuses, but share what has been revealed to me that I may continue to operate with a Spirit of love and acceptance...

The topic is abortion, and I used to be someone who strongly believed there was never any excuse for it... I have met people and situations that have convinced me that I am not qualified to make a clear cut decision on this matter...

I grew up very rural... I made mini escapes from the boondocks as a teenager by going on mission trips... Out of country when I could gather the money, but mostly inner city missions. Abortion was just becoming a mainstream political platform in the 90's, and I believed like most people where I am from that it was one of the blackest evils of the times...

When I was in the city, I would meet girls my own age who had gotten pregnant. Some by rape, some not.. My heart always went out to these women, but it would always harden a bit when I learned one of the girls I would be ministering to had had an abortion...

I was often asked, "What if you were in my situation?" and to the girls who hadn't been raped, but had willingly went to some man's bed of her own accord, I would normally answer, "I have made the decision to never put myself in this situation, and I have the strength of God to steady me in my resolve..." or some such...

To the girls who had endured horrible violence who asked, I would say, "God would never place you in a situation that you were not strong enough to bear." Like it was a comfort or something... I honestly thought it was... I would advocate adoption, and the possibility that having a child might turn a situation that seemed so hopeless into a blessing... For the most part, this is still what I believe, but I have learned that humility was lacking back then.

I would meet girls who were in situations that they saw no escape from... One day one of those girls walked up to me and had a sit down... We were both around 15/16... She seemed so wise... She told me that my attitude had hurt her sister, who was pregnant, and so was she... I didn't know how to respond, because I hadn't spoken directly to her sister. Neither of them even looked pregnant. Her sister had overheard me talking to another girl... She had heard me say abortion is never a solution... The girl who confronted me proceeded to tell me that she was on her 3rd pregnancy, and it was going to be terminated as soon as she had the means to get it done, but it was no deal whatever I thought of her... But the fact that I hurt her sister, who had just found out the day before that she was pregnant, well, She told me to go to Hell... I pressed her to tell me her story, and she pretty much said no girl should have to bear their own siblings... Her deceased mother's husband had been raping both girls since they were preteens...

I remember trying to get them to go to authorities, but then she told me that they would stay where they were, because if they said anything they would be in danger, but the system, in their eyes was just as bad... I went to one of the trip sponsors with the story, and they went to the police, but both girls denied the story... but I never had any reason to disbelieve them.

That though, was the point in my life that I started suspecting that I didn't have the right to draw the conclusion I had made. I started wondering if there might be a grey area.

...

I didn't realize until a year after that, that the gears of a personal revelation had already been set in motion 7 years before. I knew someone who had already been dealing with an issue related to this topic... Someone who had been forced to take a side of this issue, and it might not have been the right side...

When I was 8, there was a certain girl, one year older than me in my school... She was always sweet to me, even when others picked on me for being smaller. I remember sitting with her at lunch, and I remember the day she told me that her mother was getting married, and that she would have a step brother. She was excited, she had always wanted a brother... I had an older brother, 8 years older than I, and she always thought it was great how he took care of me... Her step-brother was 8 years older than her...

I suppose you know where this is going... It was only 3 months later that she didn't show up for school. I never knew what happened to her... Rumors merely stated that her grandmother took her and moved away overnight... As an 8 year old, there was no way for me to imagine what was going on.

So, 9 years later, I run into her... I asked her what happened, and she tells me that she had gotten pregnant and that was why she was taken out of school. AT 9 YEARS OLD! Her step brother had a very sick fascination with sex, and he had forcibly raped her (she didn't even know what was going on at the time), and she had gotten pregnant. Her mother had reported the incident with the police, but when the police investigated they found her mother and step father involved in drugs, and so she was turned over to her grandmother. Her grandma did not believe in abortion, so she carried the baby to term, and that child was being raised as her sister by her grandmother.

She was 18 then, when we had met again. She had been home schooled by her grandmother in another state. She had returned to Missouri to attend her mother's funeral. We decided to keep in touch. She was 20 when she married, she and her husband wanted children of their own... She got pregnant twice, but both times the pregnancies terminated within 9 weeks... The doctors decided to take a look and found that her reproductive system was so damaged and scarred from her childhood pregnancy, it wouldn't sustain one now, and to top it off, they were going to have to have to do surgery to fix a circulatory issue , and that surgery would seal the deal... She could never have children, because by the time they were done, she didn't have the necessary equipment.... She was tormented by this...

She never learned how to love her daughter... She had so many reasons to resent and be jealous... Her daughter never knew the truth of her situation, and after taking an option that my friend was never presented, for a pregnancy she was responsible for, she died at the age of 15... My friend felt worse for the fact that she didn't feel any love lost... and she regretted that anyone, including her daughter should never know the feel of a mother's love... She truly feels it would have been better for everyone if the child had never been born.

....

I have had the opportunity to meet several women who are on one side of this issue, or another... I have a friend, who believes that in the end, her daughter is so much more wonderful than the atrocity that she suffered. She advocates life, but even she knows not all women are equipped to live with the reminder forever of what they lived through... She is a staunch adoption advocate, and she has arranged several adoptions for the children of rape victims...

I have also have another friend who gave her daughter up for adoption as a teenager... Last year, she got a letter, and having her daughter as a pen pal now has given her closure that she has needed for 12 years...

I know a woman who kept her son, she tried but was never able to get quite past the regret for having lost her youth... Her son left her a letter the night he killed himself saying he regretted he was ever born... She never told him that she had considered it... she never told him he was the result of rape... She never told him anything about a father, except that he had God the Father...

I know two other women who have children who are the result of rape...

... and I know two women that have had abortions after rape, and they say they don't really think about the abortion... They don't regret it, and they have been able to move on with their lives... Both of those women have families now, and neither of them show as many signs of PTSD as the women who have kept their children...

...

Yet my experiences with these women have helped me see that the abortion is a secondary issue... attacking it is pointless, and telling women who have suffered that they must continue suffering doesn't stop the evil of these situations... Just because they decide against abortion, does not mean that the cycle of evil consequences in their individual instances end there...

The choice to have an abortion usually follows an immoral act... Whether it is un-sanctified consensual sex, or rape... It is not going to diminish until these problems are attacked...

Girls need not only to be taught the possible consequences of sex, but that they have the ability to keep their hormones in check... The media needs to quit drowning our children is messages that lust is love...

We need to teach our young men respect... A quality that is rapidly disappearing in this age... We need to attack the venues that open their minds to the kind of corruption that leads them to sexual violence... We need to counter the message that society sends that self gratification is more important than self-respect... We need to counter the message that the media gives, that women and sex are the ultimate pleasure...

As to those girls who would use abortion as a means of birth control, and continue in their ways... I do not advocate the access of abortion... If they are old enough to truly understand the risks of sex, they are old enough to deal with the consequences... I believe their decision should be whether to keep a child or offer it for adoption...

As to those who would kill a child because of a birth defect... I still have a hard time showing love in this instance... I work with developmentally challenged people very often in my field, and I don't see them as defective...

...And I will refrain from making judgment in the case of risk to a woman's life... Women who are put in the situation that they may live or die for a pregnancy is a hard situation to fathom... In the cases of family, allowing a child to live over the mother may take the mother away from a spouse, not to mention other children... I will leave this topic to the Holy Spirit, because it is too heartbreaking for me to find justice in...

I hope this post exhibits why I take a deliberately passive stance on the issue of abortions... I do hope it leads some people to really think about issues they view in Black-and-White... Many of the issues Christians feel so strongly about are secondary issues set in motion by an earlier evil, and attacking a secondary issue really doesn't ever make any progress... We have to get to the roots of these issues, and many times, there are several issues that can trigger a secondary one...

Secondary issues are normally issues that involve interpreting the lesser of 2 evils, and it must be left to an individual to make a final decision of what is the lesser... and normally it is a no-win situation to begin with...
 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
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[sup]Good post Eltanin.[/sup]
[sup]I think it comes down to foundations..[/sup]
[sup]If we build on foundations that are true then we have light.[/sup]
[sup]If we do not we have darkness.[/sup]
[sup]People like darkness more than the light because it is easyer, in the beginning anyway but that just makes it harder in the end.[/sup]
[sup]Two wrongs don't make a right.[/sup]
 

Strat

Active Member
Mar 25, 2012
784
29
28
I am starting this thread as a response and continuance of a discussion in another thread, because I did not want to further derail the topic...

This also involves a bit of personal testimony, and a good dose of personal opinion, I am not trying to make excuses, but share what has been revealed to me that I may continue to operate with a Spirit of love and acceptance...

The topic is abortion, and I used to be someone who strongly believed there was never any excuse for it... I have met people and situations that have convinced me that I am not qualified to make a clear cut decision on this matter...

I grew up very rural... I made mini escapes from the boondocks as a teenager by going on mission trips... Out of country when I could gather the money, but mostly inner city missions. Abortion was just becoming a mainstream political platform in the 90's, and I believed like most people where I am from that it was one of the blackest evils of the times...

When I was in the city, I would meet girls my own age who had gotten pregnant. Some by rape, some not.. My heart always went out to these women, but it would always harden a bit when I learned one of the girls I would be ministering to had had an abortion...

I was often asked, "What if you were in my situation?" and to the girls who hadn't been raped, but had willingly went to some man's bed of her own accord, I would normally answer, "I have made the decision to never put myself in this situation, and I have the strength of God to steady me in my resolve..." or some such...

To the girls who had endured horrible violence who asked, I would say, "God would never place you in a situation that you were not strong enough to bear." Like it was a comfort or something... I honestly thought it was... I would advocate adoption, and the possibility that having a child might turn a situation that seemed so hopeless into a blessing... For the most part, this is still what I believe, but I have learned that humility was lacking back then.

I would meet girls who were in situations that they saw no escape from... One day one of those girls walked up to me and had a sit down... We were both around 15/16... She seemed so wise... She told me that my attitude had hurt her sister, who was pregnant, and so was she... I didn't know how to respond, because I hadn't spoken directly to her sister. Neither of them even looked pregnant. Her sister had overheard me talking to another girl... She had heard me say abortion is never a solution... The girl who confronted me proceeded to tell me that she was on her 3rd pregnancy, and it was going to be terminated as soon as she had the means to get it done, but it was no deal whatever I thought of her... But the fact that I hurt her sister, who had just found out the day before that she was pregnant, well, She told me to go to Hell... I pressed her to tell me her story, and she pretty much said no girl should have to bear their own siblings... Her deceased mother's husband had been raping both girls since they were preteens...

I remember trying to get them to go to authorities, but then she told me that they would stay where they were, because if they said anything they would be in danger, but the system, in their eyes was just as bad... I went to one of the trip sponsors with the story, and they went to the police, but both girls denied the story... but I never had any reason to disbelieve them.

That though, was the point in my life that I started suspecting that I didn't have the right to draw the conclusion I had made. I started wondering if there might be a grey area.

...

I didn't realize until a year after that, that the gears of a personal revelation had already been set in motion 7 years before. I knew someone who had already been dealing with an issue related to this topic... Someone who had been forced to take a side of this issue, and it might not have been the right side...

When I was 8, there was a certain girl, one year older than me in my school... She was always sweet to me, even when others picked on me for being smaller. I remember sitting with her at lunch, and I remember the day she told me that her mother was getting married, and that she would have a step brother. She was excited, she had always wanted a brother... I had an older brother, 8 years older than I, and she always thought it was great how he took care of me... Her step-brother was 8 years older than her...

I suppose you know where this is going... It was only 3 months later that she didn't show up for school. I never knew what happened to her... Rumors merely stated that her grandmother took her and moved away overnight... As an 8 year old, there was no way for me to imagine what was going on.

So, 9 years later, I run into her... I asked her what happened, and she tells me that she had gotten pregnant and that was why she was taken out of school. AT 9 YEARS OLD! Her step brother had a very sick fascination with sex, and he had forcibly raped her (she didn't even know what was going on at the time), and she had gotten pregnant. Her mother had reported the incident with the police, but when the police investigated they found her mother and step father involved in drugs, and so she was turned over to her grandmother. Her grandma did not believe in abortion, so she carried the baby to term, and that child was being raised as her sister by her grandmother.

She was 18 then, when we had met again. She had been home schooled by her grandmother in another state. She had returned to Missouri to attend her mother's funeral. We decided to keep in touch. She was 20 when she married, she and her husband wanted children of their own... She got pregnant twice, but both times the pregnancies terminated within 9 weeks... The doctors decided to take a look and found that her reproductive system was so damaged and scarred from her childhood pregnancy, it wouldn't sustain one now, and to top it off, they were going to have to have to do surgery to fix a circulatory issue , and that surgery would seal the deal... She could never have children, because by the time they were done, she didn't have the necessary equipment.... She was tormented by this...

She never learned how to love her daughter... She had so many reasons to resent and be jealous... Her daughter never knew the truth of her situation, and after taking an option that my friend was never presented, for a pregnancy she was responsible for, she died at the age of 15... My friend felt worse for the fact that she didn't feel any love lost... and she regretted that anyone, including her daughter should never know the feel of a mother's love... She truly feels it would have been better for everyone if the child had never been born.

....

I have had the opportunity to meet several women who are on one side of this issue, or another... I have a friend, who believes that in the end, her daughter is so much more wonderful than the atrocity that she suffered. She advocates life, but even she knows not all women are equipped to live with the reminder forever of what they lived through... She is a staunch adoption advocate, and she has arranged several adoptions for the children of rape victims...

I have also have another friend who gave her daughter up for adoption as a teenager... Last year, she got a letter, and having her daughter as a pen pal now has given her closure that she has needed for 12 years...

I know a woman who kept her son, she tried but was never able to get quite past the regret for having lost her youth... Her son left her a letter the night he killed himself saying he regretted he was ever born... She never told him that she had considered it... she never told him he was the result of rape... She never told him anything about a father, except that he had God the Father...

I know two other women who have children who are the result of rape...

... and I know two women that have had abortions after rape, and they say they don't really think about the abortion... They don't regret it, and they have been able to move on with their lives... Both of those women have families now, and neither of them show as many signs of PTSD as the women who have kept their children...

...

Yet my experiences with these women have helped me see that the abortion is a secondary issue... attacking it is pointless, and telling women who have suffered that they must continue suffering doesn't stop the evil of these situations... Just because they decide against abortion, does not mean that the cycle of evil consequences in their individual instances end there...

The choice to have an abortion usually follows an immoral act... Whether it is un-sanctified consensual sex, or rape... It is not going to diminish until these problems are attacked...

Girls need not only to be taught the possible consequences of sex, but that they have the ability to keep their hormones in check... The media needs to quit drowning our children is messages that lust is love...

We need to teach our young men respect... A quality that is rapidly disappearing in this age... We need to attack the venues that open their minds to the kind of corruption that leads them to sexual violence... We need to counter the message that society sends that self gratification is more important than self-respect... We need to counter the message that the media gives, that women and sex are the ultimate pleasure...

As to those girls who would use abortion as a means of birth control, and continue in their ways... I do not advocate the access of abortion... If they are old enough to truly understand the risks of sex, they are old enough to deal with the consequences... I believe their decision should be whether to keep a child or offer it for adoption...

As to those who would kill a child because of a birth defect... I still have a hard time showing love in this instance... I work with developmentally challenged people very often in my field, and I don't see them as defective...

...And I will refrain from making judgment in the case of risk to a woman's life... Women who are put in the situation that they may live or die for a pregnancy is a hard situation to fathom... In the cases of family, allowing a child to live over the mother may take the mother away from a spouse, not to mention other children... I will leave this topic to the Holy Spirit, because it is too heartbreaking for me to find justice in...

I hope this post exhibits why I take a deliberately passive stance on the issue of abortions... I do hope it leads some people to really think about issues they view in Black-and-White... Many of the issues Christians feel so strongly about are secondary issues set in motion by an earlier evil, and attacking a secondary issue really doesn't ever make any progress... We have to get to the roots of these issues, and many times, there are several issues that can trigger a secondary one...

Secondary issues are normally issues that involve interpreting the lesser of 2 evils, and it must be left to an individual to make a final decision of what is the lesser... and normally it is a no-win situation to begin with...

Many a treatise,pontification and analysis has been given in regard to abortion complete with stories,situations,characters,reasons,excuses,rationalizations and spinning tales designed to make one reach for the kleenex....one could almost imagine a PHD being offered on the subject.

We are in a sea of innocent blood spilled for no other reason the majority of the time than to rid people of the consequences of sexual immorality and indulgence and any of the church folk who think that God will not punish each and everyone who has not repented of their part in it be it passive or agressive is sadly mistaken... moreover many of the generation which brought about this holocaust of the most innocent among us will probably live to see the other end of the spectrum of the disregard for life when they become old,inconveinent,expensive and in the way and are told its time for you to die....when no one will hear their cries for free prescription drugs,free healthcare,ect,ect that cost people time and money.....the way children do.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
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It is unfortunate that politicians have decided to exploit abortion as a wedge issue. Before they found abortion, they used Prohibition - based on the history of Prohibition by Ken Burns (great documentary) people were divided into the 'wets' and the 'drys'. determined by which side of the issue they voted on. Like all effective wedge issues, no politician really cared about creating legislation to change laws - they simply wanted to be able to count on the votes of their base. Unfortunately for the politician of the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, activists placed enough pressure on lawmakers that to everyone's horror in Washington, Prohibition actually passed. We all know how it turned out. More importantly for politicians, they lost their guaranteed voting block.

Politicians had to wait until civil rights, contraception and abortion before any decent wedge issue could be counted on. Abortion was perfect because it could be used to fracture the democratic party, which it succeeded in doing during the 1980s. The Catholic Church and many in the Midwest, who traditionally voted democratic, were no longer able to support the party platform on abortion and jumped to the Republican party.

Like I have said before, the best thing that ever happened to the Republican party is the legalization of abortion and they are the last group of people who will ever want to see the law overturned.

On moral grounds - abortion is the death of a child. Unfortunately, in our fallen world, there are worse things that can happen to child born addicted and neglected and abused. When Jesus said that some people would wish they were never born, he was not exaggerating. Legalized abortion is a necessary evil in our world, God help us.

If we are serious about trying to end the necessity of abortion, we need to work on the horrific state of our adoption and fostercare system. We need to stop buying and selling children. Finally, we need to support the welfare of pregnant mothers.
 
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MTPockets

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Aug 4, 2012
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Hi!
Jus' my two cents on the matter:
Teenage pregnancy can oftentimes end up being similar to a life sentence.
I've often thought this scenario to be completely unjust.
Myself? I was once known as a 'professional burglar'.
In fact, on one occasion my activities contributed to the death of a man and nearly caused the death of two more. Legally, my crime was not eligible to be so-called 'murder' ... legally, it was considered 'accidental' ... but morally and before God, I sincerely believe that I took a man's life.
Regardless, my crimes never legally risked putting me behind prison bars for the rest of my entire life. I never was required to pay an' pay everyday for the next 18 years ... and, perhaps even for the rest of my natural life.
I was only required to sit in a prison cell for a few years and became completely free of any responsibility for my crime and sin afterwards.
This does not happen with teenage pregnancy.
Our Christian doctrines demand that the pregnant teenager face the prospect of spending the rest of their lives sitting on Death-Row ... or at least, doing a life sentence. They are never able to become free from it; the consequences of it.
This seems so horribly unfair to me.
Look at divorce?
There was a time when there wasn't sufficient penance to pay for that particular 'crime' 'sin' too.
And, look at what happens to the children whom are born of teenage mothers. Most live in abject poverty and suffer great emotional trauma. No normal opportunities. Certainly, there is no joy growing up needing Food Stamps.
There is no joy either in being raised by an ill-equipped and immature parent.
How many Christian churches in our days believe that the teenage boy is as guilty as the teenage girl?
How many Christian churches would hurriedly welcome a repentant rapist into their fold while insisting that a teenage girl seeking an abortion should be ostracized?
Yes, I know ... most everyone will not hesitate to tell me that abortion has nothing to do with fairness or justice ... it's just a despicable sin that must be confronted no matter what.
Well, I half-way agree with them.
But I still think the circumstance is no less unjust and unfair.
I honestly and truly don't know how any Bible scholar can prove that a fetus contains the "breath of life" before it departs the womb.
There are life forms all around us. Microbiolgical life (bacteria) that can only be observed under a microscope ... animal life and plant life. No one seems to be claiming that these forms contain the "breath of life". For instance, look at the animal world ... a dog can feel pain and owns emotions too ... but I hardly think anyone believes it owns the "breath of life".
And, that's seems to me to be the crux of the matter.
We are accusing teenage mothers of murder with hardly a shred of scriptural or scientific evidence conclusively proving that the fetus is a person. It could very well be that the fetus remains merely a life form in the womb; and, only after it inhales it's first breath from Creation, can it properly be named a 'human' a 'person'.
But, until we can discover when a fetus becomes a living being, we will continue to insist that abortion is so horribly sinful and demand a life-sentence of penance by the 'sinner'.
It sortta' reminds me of those Hollywood celebrities who take to the air-waves pleading and clamoring for animal protections and rights. They equate the life-form from the animal world to be equivalent to that of a human. They too have mastered the art of emotive guilt. For 10 cents a day, you too can save an animal from the clutches of cruelty ... perhaps from the dinner plate too.
So it is that abortion has become the dark saliva of condemnation from those slobbering Christians who are so eager to limit the measure and merciful breadth of God's love. The so-called 'Wedge Issue' of the Christian ideologists.
Thank goodness I wasn't born a female. With my propensity of lawlessness from a very young age, I would have surely became pregnant and would now be still sitting in a prison cell ... of poverty ... social injustice ... religious bigotry ...my child dragging himself off to a sub-standard school.
Too bad all these fierce anti-abortionists wouldn't dig a little deeper into their pockets and make sure that the life they saved might have a better natural life for themselves. But that's something that seems to have escaped them.
Heaven forbid that these same Christians bemoaning the utter sinful deviance of our culture would decide to march on every movie and music studio .. every television station ... to demand ethics and moral standards.
No, it appears that it's easier to blame the deviant sinner than the merchants of deviance.
Who should care if their favorite shampoo is being advertised on some pornographic show that enticed and tempted the same vulnerable teenage mother who is now seeking abortion?
So it seems that abortion has become the unforgivable sin of our age. Witchcraft was once considered as such too.
I remember when I first heard the Gospel, a Pentecostal man gave me a tract and it said that I could go to hell for chewing bubble gum, Absolutely true!
 
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Rach1370

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Abortion is one of those topics that starts wars...and I understand why. It's murder, plain and simple. The problem comes, I think, when there arises the very rare but real reasons for it. I was so sick in my first pregnancy that they told me that if I didn't consider abortion, I would likely die, my baby with me. Luckily that didn't happen...I told 'em to go jump, and managed to recover...with God's help I'm sure. But sometimes the situation does become that bad, and parents are forced to consider.....do they sacrifice both mother and child, leaving perhaps other children motherless??
I don't know...but my point is this....there are real circumstances in which I think abortion is necessary. The problem is this...once people have that tiny foot in the door to legitimacy, they kick it wide open and declare "if they can, so can I"....and that's when we start seeing abortions because people are too lazy to take the consequences for their own actions. (And here I am not, of course, including the poor women who suffered abuse or rape). I think that in the very near future we'll be seeing exactly that with euthanasia. For now it's illegal (here, anyway), but they're really pushing it for those who are suffering terminal illnesses, ones that mean a death is long and painful. The problem being, as soon as that's become legal, suddenly we'll see families killing off their old parents because they don't want to pay for aged care.
Because we're a sinful, fallen race, something may begin with compassion and fairness, but it will soon descend into a nightmare....but that's just my opinion.
 

lawrance

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Mar 30, 2011
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Spot on Rach.
We now have legal prostitution now and the young think all is fine and great and now and they think it's a good job career. and what i see with the young males, all it does is lower the position of women in society totally.
I keep hearing them say all women are sluts day in day out and one day i may just loose it and strangle one of them as it makes me so angry to see people just so disrespecting of others.and where does it all end. it's a nightmare down the track.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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Abortion is one of those topics that starts wars...and I understand why. It's murder, plain and simple. The problem comes, I think, when there arises the very rare but real reasons for it. I was so sick in my first pregnancy that they told me that if I didn't consider abortion, I would likely die, my baby with me. Luckily that didn't happen...I told 'em to go jump, and managed to recover...with God's help I'm sure. But sometimes the situation does become that bad, and parents are forced to consider.....do they sacrifice both mother and child, leaving perhaps other children motherless??
I don't know...but my point is this....there are real circumstances in which I think abortion is necessary. The problem is this...once people have that tiny foot in the door to legitimacy, they kick it wide open and declare "if they can, so can I"....and that's when we start seeing abortions because people are too lazy to take the consequences for their own actions. (And here I am not, of course, including the poor women who suffered abuse or rape). I think that in the very near future we'll be seeing exactly that with euthanasia. For now it's illegal (here, anyway), but they're really pushing it for those who are suffering terminal illnesses, ones that mean a death is long and painful. The problem being, as soon as that's become legal, suddenly we'll see families killing off their old parents because they don't want to pay for aged care.
Because we're a sinful, fallen race, something may begin with compassion and fairness, but it will soon descend into a nightmare....but that's just my opinion.

I will ask you this,with all the talk here about sacrifice,denial of self,living for others in all the forms it takes and the endless opinions and long winded post on the subject how can anyone say that Abortion is neccesary,if one wants to say that it is at times then why not make allowances for other forms of self preservation minus any judgement or question of character...please understand my question is not based on practical circumstances but on the bible that so many here claim to read and the God of that bible that so many here claim to follow.....and i am not saying that forgiveness is not available or that it is the only sin.

I would alo like to understand how women have positioned themselves so that no matter what they do they are always in a positive light,if a woman has a child then she is a brave and courageous single mother,if she aborts the child then she is just doing what is best for everybody concerned...no matter what it's all good.I can tell you that as a aman i have never received anything but rightous condemnation and judgement for the sins i have commited that never even came close to taking an innocent life....indeed men who do not fullfill their responsabilities to their family are universally condemned by christian as well as secular society....what do you think creates the double standard ?

Great endorsement! I was worried I might have been off track for a minute.........thanks for the encouragement!

Oh my no...you're....right on track, good winds and fair seas to you.....most men support abortion because they have either been let off the hook by it or want it to be there should they ever need it.
 

aspen

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divorce.

God hates divorce, yet he has allowed it.
 

MTPockets

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divorce.

God hates divorce, yet he has allowed it.

Hi! Aspen
I think you might be partially incorrect in saying: "God hates divorce, yet he has allowed it".
Yes, God hates divorce. This is in keeping with, "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel". (Mal 2:16).
However, the Bible clearly states that it was Moses (NOT GOD) who permitted divorce; "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so", (Matt 19:7-8).
Divorce was never included in the plans and purposes of God; "from the beginning it was not so". Therefore, divorce is and remains deviant to the original creation laws of God.
The scripture says: "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.", (Heb 3:8-11).

So, those who are so quick to jump on the sin of abortion might do well to recognize that divorce is no less ugly a sin before God.

It's not for nothing that Paul said: "This exercise myself, always a void of offense toward conscience before God and men", (Acts 24:16).

But as always, Christians wrongly find solace in differentiating between sin and the measure of guilt accompanying it.
 

aspen

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Hi! Aspen
I think you might be partially incorrect in saying: "God hates divorce, yet he has allowed it".
Yes, God hates divorce. This is in keeping with, "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel". (Mal 2:16).
However, the Bible clearly states that it was Moses (NOT GOD) who permitted divorce; "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so", (Matt 19:7-8).
Divorce was never included in the plans and purposes of God; "from the beginning it was not so". Therefore, divorce is and remains deviant to the original creation laws of God.
The scripture says: "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.", (Heb 3:8-11).

So, those who are so quick to jump on the sin of abortion might do well to recognize that divorce is no less ugly a sin before God.

It's not for nothing that Paul said: "This exercise myself, always a void of offense toward conscience before God and men", (Acts 24:16).

But as always, Christians wrongly find solace in differentiating between sin and the measure of guilt accompanying it.

Jeremiah 3:8
I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

Hmm, so I guess we should outlaw it if we are going to outlaw abortion - also, how about fornication? lying?
 

MTPockets

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Jeremiah 3:8
I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

Hmm, so I guess we should outlaw it if we are going to outlaw abortion - also, how about fornication? lying?

Hi! 'Aspen'
No, I am not recommending that we begin drawing up a list of behavior to be outlawed.
I'm simply stating that it seems to me to be exceedingly unjust for some Christians to hold one particular sin as more grievous than another. It's unjust to have the opinion that, for instance, divorce is somehow less contemptible or grievous a sin than abortion. Sin is sin ... sin is an equal opportunity employer which dispenses the wages of death equally. When it comes to sin, there is no place for probation or alternative sentencing; all who sin find themselves sitting on Death Row.
In my personal view, many Christians unfairly place an emotional value on sin; they wrongly perceive that some sins hold a measure of guilt and consequent penalty more severely than others.
Yes, it's very true that some sins have more severe self-injury and more strident wounds attached to them, But all are nonetheless quite plainly 'sin'.
What I've been trying to say with my comments is that it's terribly unjust to distinguish one sin or sinner from another. To condemn one sinner more severely than another. We were once ALL sinners ... and, we were once ALL deserving of Death Row ... regardless of someone's perceived gravity of our sin.
I have profound sympathy for those who have found themselves in the predicament of seeking an abortion. I also have equal sympathy and compassion for those who, in a minute of fury, murdered their spouse. Equally, I have great sympathy and understanding for those who agreed to divorce.
It's an increasingly cruel and unforgiving world we are living in. The powers of sin and darkness are as "a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour", (1Pet 5:8).
Us Christians are the only beacon in their darkness.
We want to always strive to be a "light" in the world .. a light of mercy and kindness and compassion for those who have been injured and wounded by the evil one. We should not wish to present ourselves as flash-light which uncovers the darkness and shamefully chases it uncharitably.
After all, we are a light in this world ... not a flash-light. Our duty is not to expose or chase the darkness but to triumph over and extinguish it.
 

Rach1370

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I will ask you this,with all the talk here about sacrifice,denial of self,living for others in all the forms it takes and the endless opinions and long winded post on the subject how can anyone say that Abortion is neccesary,if one wants to say that it is at times then why not make allowances for other forms of self preservation minus any judgement or question of character...please understand my question is not based on practical circumstances but on the bible that so many here claim to read and the God of that bible that so many here claim to follow.....and i am not saying that forgiveness is not available or that it is the only sin.

Hey Strat. I'm not sure if the bible speaks directly about abortion, but it does say that children are blessings, and that from the moment of conception they are a real person, fore-known and loved by God. This would imply, to me, that people who want an abortion because a child 'is not convenient right now', or 'what does it matter, it's just a lump of flesh...it's my body I'll do what I want'....are completely wrong according to scripture.
As for the occasional necessity...I understand it can be a very grey area, and like I said before, I think that allowing for the genuine, we've made room for the selfish. But consider....if a pregnant woman will die without an abortion, do we condemn both of them, or just one? It's a horrible, horrible situation...I know, I've been there. I didn't believe I was quite at that point and refused the abortion, and thanks God, we both survived....but there are many medical situations that would make that very real. As the bible does not speak to such situations, I think it must come down to the persons in the situation...the mother and father and God. And quite frankly, unless we are there with them, seeing the heartache in the decision, the prayerful tears, I don't think we should judge...that should be God's role in this alone.


I would alo like to understand how women have positioned themselves so that no matter what they do they are always in a positive light,if a woman has a child then she is a brave and courageous single mother,if she aborts the child then she is just doing what is best for everybody concerned...no matter what it's all good.I can tell you that as a aman i have never received anything but rightous condemnation and judgement for the sins i have commited that never even came close to taking an innocent life....indeed men who do not fullfill their responsabilities to their family are universally condemned by christian as well as secular society....what do you think creates the double standard ?

Women have positioned themselves thus, I would assume, because like all humans they are selfish and lazy and want an excuse to behave as they choose. Now don't get me wrong, I understand intimately that having a child turns your life upside down. Pregnancy can be tough, the early days hell, and you'll never have time for yourself again...just going to the toilet in peace can be difficult! But I honestly think it just comes back to selfishness. When are the people of the world going to wake up and realise ITS NOT ABOUT US! We may experience life from the first person, but we'll never get the joy out of life that Christ came to give, unless we start thinking of others first....thinking and also be willing to put ourselves out. That means loving the children God has given us, they are little people in desperate need of love, service and of knowing God.
Perhaps I sound intolerant, but that's because I wager that most abortions happen today because a baby doesn't fit in with woman's life plan. Perhaps more happen when the man in the situation pressures the woman to get rid of what they perceive as a problem...again, selfishness.
As for women who fall pregnant because of rape, abuse, incest....I will not judge them. I will perhaps say I think they should consider adoption rather than murder, as it seems killing an unborn child produces more trauma, but it is not my place to rain holy judgement upon them....only God, as he knows their hearts.
And then the very few medical reasons I laid down above. But as I said, I think most abortions happen through selfishness...
 

Strat

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Hey Strat. I'm not sure if the bible speaks directly about abortion, but it does say that children are blessings, and that from the moment of conception they are a real person, fore-known and loved by God. This would imply, to me, that people who want an abortion because a child 'is not convenient right now', or 'what does it matter, it's just a lump of flesh...it's my body I'll do what I want'....are completely wrong according to scripture.
As for the occasional necessity...I understand it can be a very grey area, and like I said before, I think that allowing for the genuine, we've made room for the selfish. But consider....if a pregnant woman will die without an abortion, do we condemn both of them, or just one? It's a horrible, horrible situation...I know, I've been there. I didn't believe I was quite at that point and refused the abortion, and thanks God, we both survived....but there are many medical situations that would make that very real. As the bible does not speak to such situations, I think it must come down to the persons in the situation...the mother and father and God. And quite frankly, unless we are there with them, seeing the heartache in the decision, the prayerful tears, I don't think we should judge...that should be God's role in this alone.




Women have positioned themselves thus, I would assume, because like all humans they are selfish and lazy and want an excuse to behave as they choose. Now don't get me wrong, I understand intimately that having a child turns your life upside down. Pregnancy can be tough, the early days hell, and you'll never have time for yourself again...just going to the toilet in peace can be difficult! But I honestly think it just comes back to selfishness. When are the people of the world going to wake up and realise ITS NOT ABOUT US! We may experience life from the first person, but we'll never get the joy out of life that Christ came to give, unless we start thinking of others first....thinking and also be willing to put ourselves out. That means loving the children God has given us, they are little people in desperate need of love, service and of knowing God.
Perhaps I sound intolerant, but that's because I wager that most abortions happen today because a baby doesn't fit in with woman's life plan. Perhaps more happen when the man in the situation pressures the woman to get rid of what they perceive as a problem...again, selfishness.
As for women who fall pregnant because of rape, abuse, incest....I will not judge them. I will perhaps say I think they should consider adoption rather than murder, as it seems killing an unborn child produces more trauma, but it is not my place to rain holy judgement upon them....only God, as he knows their hearts.
And then the very few medical reasons I laid down above. But as I said, I think most abortions happen through selfishness...

Do you think God will judge the shedding of innocent blood regardless of the reason ? is there a reason for the planned,determined shedding of innocent blood ? not talking about forgiveness but judgement....i'm sure you know as well as i do that very very few abortions happen for medical reasons,some say less than a tenth of one percent.
 

us2are1

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There is a justification for murder? But only if it is done by the Spirit of God. That would only be murder in the eyes of the devil. The captain and fifty, twice, were justified. Sodom and Gomorrah was justified with all of their women, children and cattle. All of the nations that Israel displaced and slaughtered were justified.

So I guess it is justified to slaughter all who would shed innocent blood in the womb.

God will take care of it. No one gets away with nothing.

It is better to repent and believe the gospel of Christ. Because the Kingdom of God is at hand.
 

Rach1370

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Do you think God will judge the shedding of innocent blood regardless of the reason ? is there a reason for the planned,determined shedding of innocent blood ? not talking about forgiveness but judgement....i'm sure you know as well as i do that very very few abortions happen for medical reasons,some say less than a tenth of one percent.

Probably. I suspect we'll be judged for everything...even the things that seem 'good' to us. I'm not saying that abortion is 'right' in any circumstances, I'm saying that at times it is necessary to save life (I know that sounds stupid, considering abortion takes life...but at times its as simple as this: one life, or two). And yes, Strat...I anticipate those times being very low. I felt I needed to mention those times, however, for the people who seemed to have no choice are are haunted by it. Ultimately, in the end, whether it was a justifiable thing to do or not, will between them and God, and I think now, for us, we should love them, not condemn them.
 

marksman

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We are accusing teenage mothers of murder with hardly a shred of scriptural or scientific evidence conclusively proving that the fetus is a person

May I offer a few thoughts on the subject. I chose this quote above to highlight the fact that the feminist movement has invented several mantras to promote their cause. I have heard most of them and I do believe that abortion is never the answer.

The feminist invented the idea that the baby in the womb is not human. Prior to their claim, the baby in the womb was always human. Their argument falls down when you ask the question "when does it become human?"

Once you tell a lie, invariably you have to keep inventing them to cover up the original lie. Now to take their reasoning to its logical conclusion, one second the baby is not human and the next it is, regardless of when it becomes human and I have heard several different opinions on this.

So tell me "what happened in those two seconds that made it human?"

It is a know fact that medically that everything that is required for a human to be conceived is there at conception. Things are not added on as the baby progresses through its nine months in the womb.

It is a medical fact that a heartbeat has been registered at 18 days after conception. If there is a heartbeat, medically that person is deemed to be alive.

In an abortion that was captured on video, the baby was seem sucking its thumb. When the vacuum was inserted to suck the baby out, it was seen to recoil When the abortion was being performed, it was seen to be screaming.

The feminist claim that what is inside the body of the mother is just a blob of cells. One that however, feels pain, screams, has a heartbeat and sucks his thumb. I have never seen a blob of cells do that.

Furthermore Bernard Nathenson, who had performed more abortions than anyone else at the time said in an interview on TV that every abortion kills a baby. Not a foetus or a blob of cells, but a baby.

I attended a meeting called by a pro-abortion politician. I went armed with a photo of an aborted baby, complete with head, arms, legs and torso all torn into pieces. After her speech I held up the photo and asked "is this a baby?" her response...It depends on the situation which is a complete lie. Either it is a baby or it isn't and the situation changes nothing.

God's word says, and I highlight the relevant words.....

Judges_13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Note: not a foetus or a blob.

Ruth_1:11 And Naomi said, Turn again, my daughters: why will ye go with me? are there yet any more sons in my womb, that they may be your husbands?

Note. Not a foetus or a blob.

Job_31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Note: Made me, suggesting a person.

Psalm_127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Note: Children and fruit of the womb.

Psalm_139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Note: Covered ME (a person)

Proverbs_31:2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?

Note: SON which means a person.

Ecclesiastes_5:15 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand.

Note: Came forth as a person.

Ecclesiastes_11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who makes all.

Note: Blobs do not have bones.

Isaiah_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Note: Formed a blob or a person?

Jeremiah_1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Note: I knew THEE (OR YOU). Not exactly a blob or foetus.

Hosea_12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

Note: Do blobs have brothers?

Luke_1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Note: Why would God fill a blob with the holy ghost.?

Luke_1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Note: Or should that be the blob leaped in the womb?

A dispassionate observer would have to admit from these scriptures that God creates a person in the womb not a blob or a foetus.
 

epostle1

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Good post, marksman.

Project Rachael is a non-denominational ministry. Not all abortion is induced. Some women grieve the loss of a spontaneous miscarriage.

Project Rachel is the name of the Catholic Church’s healing ministry to those who have been involved in abortion. Its name comes from Scripture:


Jeremiah 31:15-17​

Project Rachel operates as a network of healing composed of specially-trained caregivers which may include priests, deacons, sisters, lay staff and volunteers, mental health professionals, spiritual directors, mentors, chaplains and others, such as medical personnel. These individuals, often working as a team, provide direct care to women, men and adolescents who have been touched by an abortion loss, enabling them to grieve, receive forgiveness, and find peace. Although most dioceses use the name Project Rachel, some programs are named differently. In addition to individualized counseling, some programs include support groups and retreats. Project Rachel programs can be found in about 150 Catholic dioceses in the United States, as well as in dioceses in other countries.

http://hopeafterabortion.com/