Two witnesses 2+2=2?

terry said:

Vet, your user of the ESV bible differs from my use of the KJV. When you gave your outline you related events differently and withoiut clarity.... read mine and see the consice pattern..... And though I read others works much and studied much this I arrived personally.

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I really don't use the ESV brother, I use the 1611 KJV. I only gave that ESV example above because that's the version you referenced back at your post #54.


Below I replied to your questions in red with Blue type after it...

you wrote:

Start of the "one week" (7 years) ------------- 7 years or days? ----- 7 literal years, each 'week' of the 70 weeks given in Dan.9:24 represent a period of 7 years (based on Daniel's understanding about his study in Dan.9:2). Thus the total 70 weeks equal 490 years all in all.

220 days - "league" of 7 years made -----------another 7 years or days? ------- 220 literal days; this is 220 days already into the first 1260 day period, i.e., the first half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27. Remember, 1260 days X 2 = 7 years, literally.

Another way to represent the 220 days is this:

------------- Start of 1st 1260 day period
220 days |
------------- End of 220 day period - start count of the 2300 days period to finish of whole 70 weeks prophecy (Dan.8:14)
1040 days |
------------- End of 1040 days, and thus the 1st 1260 day period (note 220 + 1040 = 1260)

MID-POINT of the "one week"


-----------
Start of the 1040 days -------------begining of the Daily Sacrifice? ------- probably not. The sacrifice will probably already be going on during that period. At some point within this 1st half of Daniel's "one week", a temple must be prepared for the false one to place the abomination at the mid-point of the "one week", and sacrifices must already be going on, per Dan.8:11-13; Dan.9:27; Dan.11:31, and Dan.12:11.

-----------
(1st 1260 days period completed)

---------- = MID POINT OF THE "ONE WEEK" -------Abomination of Desolation occurs? ----- Yes, this is when the "league" of Dan.11:23 and Dan.9:27 is broken. That pact will have been made in the 220 days of the 1st half 1260 day period. And it's to be made for the whole "one week" (7 years). The sacrifices are ended, and the abomination idol setup in instead.

"league" broken - End of sacrifice and abomination setup
1260 days to the finish - great tribulation
-----------------
Cleansing of the sanctuary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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We are discussing the time of the Abomination of Desolation in relationship to the Daily Sacrifive and the cleansing o the Temple's sanctuary, aslo the 7 day period(s) So I will use those terms....
Also, when is the covenant made and when is it confirmed?

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You can call the KJV "one week" of Dan.9:27 a 7 day period, but it's to represent years per the 70 weeks prophecy (70 weeks = 490 years). In the Hebrew it's actual a 'seven', same numeral idea used to represent a period of a week elsewhere in God's Word. Dan.9:2 reveals the prophecy given Daniel is to be understood in years, which is why the 70 years study in Jeremiah is mentioned.

I contend....

2 ...........the Daily Sacrifice starts here -------------------2300 days before the cleansing oif the Temple...
.............1
3............0
.............1
0............0 DAYS MAXIUM
..............The "fist" 7 day period is here and Daily Sacrifice stopped...Covenant Made
0............30 Days later the Corner Stone is set...thus begining Tribulation
.............. this is exactly 1,290 before the Aboimination of Desolation 30 days later...
..............Tribulation begins here.................
..............1,
..............2
..............6
D...........0
..............D
A............a
..............y
Y............s
..............Here is the Aboination of Desolation Covenant Confirmed
S............during a period of 7 days...one week.....
..............1, .............right afterward the two witnesses are killed, lay dead 3 1/2 days and ascend to heaven
L............2 ............TEMPLE IS CLEANSED
...............6
...............0
...............D
...............a
...............y
...............s
...............Armageddon

In Daniel 12:11 KJV it clearly tells us there is 1,290 between the time the Daily Sacrifice is stopped
and the Abomination of Desolation is committed.


[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] Daniel 12:11

King James Version (KJV)[/background]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][sup]11 [/sup]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Exactly how are you getting around the 1,290 day span between the two events?
I still do not see your logic.[/background]

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I don't see how you can figure the "one week" of Dan.9:27 as a literal seven day period. Because of the prophecy in Dan.9:24-26 we know each week is symbolic of a seven YEAR period.

By the time of Dan.9:27, a total of 69 weeks have passed, which equal two periods mentioned, a seven week period and a sixty two week period. So 7 weeks x 7 = 49 years, and 62 weeks x 7 = 434 years. A total of 483 years of the 70 weeks prophecy has already passed. It's the final remaining "one week" of 7 years that is the topic here we're discussing. These events we're talking about make up the 3rd period in the prophecy that have yet to be fulfilled. The total is 70 weeks x 7 = 490 years. We're still at 483 years into the prophecy. That's why assuming that "one week" of Dan.9:27 is only a seven day period doesn't fit the timeline of the 70 weeks Daniel was given, because it's in 70 weeks of years (seventy sevens per the Hebrew).

terry said:

actually i need to edit this.. no i am not i am keeping "and" as it refers to two different things taking place one a the begining AND one at the ending.


Vet errs, there is no starting point unless that time span separates them.

I am not sure how you figure the verses contend some imaginary start point ior end point, when both beginning and ending are already provided.

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You realize this is almost impossible to do without the aid of real chart lines and dividers.

culminate after 1290 days with the resurrection. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT... One must imagine the ressurrection being inclusive AND I am te one implying different words??? not at all and it also fits without imagining anything.

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You're still treating the Dan.12:11 verse as a separate statement apart from it's relation to the flow of the Dan.12 chapter about the finish of the 3.5 years of Dan.12:6-7. And I don't know where you're getting that "culminate after the 1290 days with the resurrection". I never said nor inferred that.

The end of the vision, the sealing it up ends at what point? At the end of the 2nd 1260 day period. That's when Christ's coming and the resurrection is. The cleansing of the sanctuary begins after that, which is the 30 days shown added onto that 1260 days per Dan.12:11. Have you bothered to look at Dan.9:24 again, to see how the idea of anointing the most Holy is after the completed 70 weeks?

How doies it mke a complete sentence when one writes..... The Daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation take place 1,290 days before the --------------------- ! it lacks as a sentence and is not a completed sentence.

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and what ressurredction? that happened near 2000 years ago

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I don't understand what you're getting at.



I'll try to do a chart again:

Daniel's "one week" of Dan.9:27 = 1260 days + 1260 days

That's TWO 1260 day periods, not one. Per the Dan.9:27 verse, the symbolic "one week" is divided into TWO 1260 day periods.

SUMMARY 1:
|-------------- 1260 DAYS -------------|--- MIDDLE OF "ONE WEEK" --------|--------- 1260 DAYS ---------|



SUMMARY 2:

............|--------------- "ONE WEEK" OF DAN.9:27 ---------------|
| PACT |-220 days-|--1040 days--| MID POINT-|---1260 days--|-30 days--|--45 days-----|
............|- temple built/sacrifices -| pact brkn.--|--tribulation----|| < Christ return
...................................................| sacrf. end--|--two witnes.---|
...................................................|-AOD set----|-image worsh.-|- pouring upon 'desolator'
............................|--------- 2300 DAYS ----------------------------|| cleansing|- blessing ---|

SUMMARY 1:
|-------------- 1260 DAYS -------------|--- MIDDLE OF "ONE WEEK" --------|--------- 1260 DAYS ---------|

I completely agree what that Vet and is what I claim also, are were stubling over each others feet in a sack race. trying to arrive at the same destination from two different directions... possibly.
as far as that - ressurection thingy.... i know you did not say that....Trekson said that- in an attempt to make what you stated clear. And i was pretty sure you did not mean that....i just wanted to make that clear.

ok .. now the 70 weeks.. of years, lets start it with the possession of Jesusalem. I think 1969 - the 6 day war ) finishing with (approximately) 2018-9.
Now the one week of years would be Tribulation and the one week of days would be that 7 day period amid Tribulations when the Abomination of Desolation ocurrs. I added another 7 day period... for when the covenant is first made..not confirrmed...because scripture defines it and so if----or since there is 1,290 days between stopping the daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation--that week must be inclusive.
ok... muslims with regard to an animal sacrifice committed daily AT the dome of the rock - should-- meaning most likely take a huge offense to - especially since that sacrifice is not to allah. So any alliance, covenant, peace process would most likely involve stopping that sacrifice especially if that process was to allow a temple tore re-built. Understand the dome of the rock is a sacred place for both muslims and Jews... so building a new temple there if considered a ... joint effort by both muslims and Jews could be done but not if the Jews were allowed sacrifices there, This...joint effort could also explain the 42 months the Gentiles trod the courtyard. So stopping this daily sacrifice before the start of the new temple would mean 30 days before tribulation begins.

terry said:

SUMMARY 1:
|-------------- 1260 DAYS -------------|--- MIDDLE OF "ONE WEEK" --------|--------- 1260 DAYS ---------|

I completely agree what that Vet and is what I claim also, are were stubling over each others feet in a sack race. trying to arrive at the same destination from two different directions... possibly.
as far as that - ressurection thingy.... i know you did not say that....Trekson said that- in an attempt to make what you stated clear. And i was pretty sure you did not mean that....i just wanted to make that clear.

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Good.

ok .. now the 70 weeks.. of years, lets start it with the possession of Jesusalem. I think 1969 - the 6 day war ) finishing with (approximately) 2018-9.

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That idea is confusing. Because the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan.9:24-27 already began in 454 B.C. with the command to return to Jerusalem and build the 2nd temple in Ezra and Nehemiah's days.

Now the one week of years would be Tribulation and the one week of days would be that 7 day period amid Tribulations when the Abomination of Desolation ocurrs. I added another 7 day period... for when the covenant is first made..not confirrmed...because scripture defines it and so if----or since there is 1,290 days between stopping the daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation--that week must be inclusive.

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There is no gap between the ending of the sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination.

It's the way you're looking at the Dan.12:11 verse by itself that's causing you to interpret it to mean end of sacrifices then 1290 days, then setup of the abomination.

Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)

Because the other Daniel time references to those two events have no time gap, it means we cannot add a 1290 day period in between the end of sacrifices and setup of the abomination. That's why that Dan.12:11 must be kept in perspective with the finish of the 3.5 years mentioned back at Dan.12:6-7...

Dan 12:6-7
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him That liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
(KJV)

So the way the Dan.12:11 verse is to be understood is that from the time sacrifices end including the abomination setup, to the "finish" of the "time, times, and an half" will be 1260 days, and then the 30 days for the anointing of the most Holy. It means this...

Mid-point ---------------|------------- 1260 days ------------------|------- 30 days -------|
| sacrifice ends --------|--time, times, and an half -------------|
|----------- AOD set----|--power of holy people scattered-----|| < accomplished

The 30 days is past the "time, times, and an half" period (i.e., 1260 days), not prior to it.

ok... muslims with regard to an animal sacrifice committed daily AT the dome of the rock - should-- meaning most likely take a huge offense to - especially since that sacrifice is not to allah. So any alliance, covenant, peace process would most likely involve stopping that sacrifice especially if that process was to allow a temple tore re-built. Understand the dome of the rock is a sacred place for both muslims and Jews... so building a new temple there if considered a ... joint effort by both muslims and Jews could be done but not if the Jews were allowed sacrifices there, This...joint effort could also explain the 42 months the Gentiles trod the courtyard. So stopping this daily sacrifice before the start of the new temple would mean 30 days before tribulation begins.

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There's already been some Islamic clerics that recognize Israel's history involving a temple upon that mount, including the Old Covenant practicies of Israel (which means sacrifices). Non-radical leaders of Islam involved in that, not radical Muslims. Most western media has been silent about that accepting aspect of Islam today. It makes sense too, because that media blackout shows the future Muslim acceptance of a 3rd Israelite temple built on the temple mount is getting closer to reality today. And per the Daniel prophecy, the vile person is to come to power using flatteries and to bring peace.

Veteran wrote: " That idea is confusing. Because the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan.9:24-27 already began in 454 B.C. with the command to return to Jerusalem and build the 2nd temple in Ezra and Nehemiah's days. "

Honestly I never had any problem with the 70 weeks not being part of Revelaqtion or Tribulation or Armageddon.
This is why it was never included in the calendar. Nor do I have aproblem if it is to be included and so my inclusion of it was but a mere attempt inject an opinion. The week long intervals of when thwe covenant is made and when the covenant is confirmed are then ... just that....a week... of which one was outlined where it is foretold the beast will commit the A of D in the middle of that week... and that this beast also stopped the Daily Sacrifice some 1,290 earlier. ok well time will correct one of us on that. I sincerelty hope you and i are still debating then, as i respect your input with me or against me.

terry said:

Veteran wrote: " That idea is confusing. Because the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan.9:24-27 already began in 454 B.C. with the command to return to Jerusalem and build the 2nd temple in Ezra and Nehemiah's days. "

Honestly I never had any problem with the 70 weeks not being part of Revelaqtion or Tribulation or Armageddon.
This is why it was never included in the calendar. Nor do I have aproblem if it is to be included and so my inclusion of it was but a mere attempt inject an opinion. The week long intervals of when thwe covenant is made and when the covenant is confirmed are then ... just that....a week... of which one was outlined where it is foretold the beast will commit the A of D in the middle of that week... and that this beast also stopped the Daily Sacrifice some 1,290 earlier. ok well time will correct one of us on that. I sincerelty hope you and i are still debating then, as i respect your input with me or against me.

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True, one of us will change our story on that... in time. But here's the challenge for you. Are you able to make all the previous Daniel references about the time sacrifices end and the abomination placed have a 1290 day gap between them? If you cannot, then what would that mean for how the Dan.12:11 verse is to be interpreted?

I did that in 1993 with my calendar

haven't you looked at it? i need to setup a web sit becauser that calendar is hypertexed that one can click on any line and read the references. 20 years later and it remains in tact however, other theologians calendars have fallen apart many times and continue to do so.

oh yeah. i also covered dan 12:12 a subject most never attempt yet pretty clear. See it is the only time in the written Word God does something he has tols us to do. Now, there are 3 different typres of people... those believers (meaning this includes the Jews ) that go in the rapture those that remain and those who follow another god or no-god. those that go in the rapture need no blessing for they are already gone... the rapture took place by then.... those believers remaining - yup - they need a blessing and f course.... those that curse God... non-believers that have heardthe word and denied it. Bless those that Curse You - a commandment even God fulfilled!

terry said:

I did that in 1993 with my calendar

haven't you looked at it? i need to setup a web sit becauser that calendar is hypertexed that one can click on any line and read the references. 20 years later and it remains in tact however, other theologians calendars have fallen apart many times and continue to do so.

oh yeah. i also covered dan 12:12 a subject most never attempt yet pretty clear. See it is the only time in the written Word God does something he has tols us to do. Now, there are 3 different typres of people... those believers (meaning this includes the Jews ) that go in the rapture those that remain and those who follow another god or no-god. those that go in the rapture need no blessing for they are already gone... the rapture took place by then.... those believers remaining - yup - they need a blessing and f course.... those that curse God... non-believers that have heardthe word and denied it. Bless those that Curse You - a commandment even God fulfilled!

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Sorry brother, I don't recognize a rapture prior to, nor at any point during the 1260 day tribulation period. Christ's return and gathering of His Church is for after the tribulation like He said (Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

And I assure you, that graph I made with Summary 2 has yet to fall apart.

I am not contending your graph has fallen apart, as i have not fully researched it. I do expect the rapture just past mid-point of Tribulation and just prrior to Dan 12:12.

Matt 24:29-31 explains the time of Armageddon and other events besides the war of Armageddon that transpires. As does the scriptures you gave in Mark.
----this is of course...as I see it.

Hi Vet, I'm sorry I confused the issue but in our previous conversations I was sure you mentioned it, however, for clarifications sake at what point do you see the resurrection occurring? At the end of the second 1260 days? 1290 days? or 1335 days? or none of the above.

terry said:

I am not contending your graph has fallen apart, as i have not fully researched it. I do expect the rapture just past mid-point of Tribulation and just prrior to Dan 12:12.

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Yeah, I know. I'm also pretty sure that you know the events of Daniel's final "one week" haven't begun yet today. So my chart nor your's, has not been tested yet.

A rapture just past the mid-point (middle of the "one week") still suggests a pre-trib rapture idea, since it's the latter half 1260 days of the "one week" that is the tribulation time our Lord Jesus was teaching in His Olivet Discourse. I interpret the events He gave with the "beginning of sorrows" period as the 1st 1260 days half of the "one week". Then later He mentions the "abomination of desolation" being setup, and associates that with the "great tribulation" idea. I think it's important to distinguish that difference.

Matt 24:29-31 explains the time of Armageddon and other events besides the war of Armageddon that transpires. As does the scriptures you gave in Mark.
----this is of course...as I see it.

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Since our Lord Jesus is still giving warning to His Church on earth on the 6th Vial to keep our garments lest we walk naked (Rev.16:15), then I can only interpret His coming in regard to those vials is on the final 7th Vial, which we're being shown there is when Armageddon happens. The word for Meggiddo rendered Harmageddon there is interesting with a Greek transliteration, using the two Greek words 'epicheo' (to pour out) and 'periecho' (to surround). That idea of pouring out and to surround relates to this...

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
(KJV)

Trekson said:

Hi Vet, I'm sorry I confused the issue but in our previous conversations I was sure you mentioned it, however, for clarifications sake at what point do you see the resurrection occurring? At the end of the second 1260 days? 1290 days? or 1335 days? or none of the above.

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Look at my Summary 2 chart a few posts up.

Vet, I have a feeling your ideas and mine are going to hit head-on into agreement at some time, thou our ideas seem to differ now. The 7 --- period mid-point of Tribulation when the Abmoination of Desolation could be a 7 years period and this cerimony where the Abomination of Desolation transpires may be a 7 day period also. Even if it is a 7 day period it may not have been described I do see your point and it allowes me a diferent perspective to further my understanding.

Veteran, In your writtings I believe you displayed some contempt for writers such as Hal Lindsay. I read or studied many of the endtime theologians works such as him and Pat Robertson, J R Church, John Hagee and others. Although they were often quite in error... it was in the discovery of their errors I found accuracy. If you know what is wrong, it can be easier to discover what is correct. Their work did inspire me to research, for that I commend them. I also found many others with quite contrasting ideas that allowed me to see things from perspectives I had not considered and to them I have appreciation aslo... though in both cases I surely wish their teachings were not so monetarily directed. But knowing they seemed very financially directed it made it easier to distinguish between accuracy and mis-leading information. The bad part is thet others may not have been or are unable to understand the differences.

Shalom, guys.

You need some refresher courses in Persian history. After the captivity under Nebuchadnezzar (who died in 561 B.C.), followed by Nabonidus and his heir apparent, Belshazzar, Cyrus II the Great took Bavel (Babylon) in 538 B.C. It was during his first year as ruler of Bavel that he issued his Edict of Restoration (2 Chronicles 36:22-23 ;Ezra 1:1-4).

Ezra 1:1-4
1:1 In the first year of Koresh king of Persia, in order for the word of Adonai prophesied by Yirmeyahu to be fulfilled, Adonai stirred up the spirit of Koresh king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his whole kingdom, which he also put in writing, as follows:

2 “Here is what Koresh king of Persia says: Adonai, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms on earth; and he has charged me to build him a house in Yerushalayim, in Y’hudah. 3 Whoever there is among you of all his people, may his God be with him! He may go up to Yerushalayim, in Y’hudah, and build the house of Adonai the God of Isra’el, the God who is in Yerushalayim. 4 Let every survivor, no matter where he lives, be helped by his neighbors with silver, gold, goods and animals, in addition to the voluntary offering for the house of God in Yerushalayim.”
CJB

It was soon after this that a group of people lead by Z'rubavel and Yeshua` the priest arrived in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) and began the work on the Temple. They first built the altar and celebrated Ro'sh Chodesh (Ro'sh haShannah) and Sukkot in the seventh month of 538 (or 537) B.C. They then began work on the Temple foundation and finished the foundation (amid much opposition) and dedicated it in the second month of 535 B.C. (Ezra 3:8-13).

The opposition continued for QUITE a while:

Ezra 4
4:1 When the enemies of Y’hudah and Binyamin heard that the people from the exile were building a temple to Adonai the God of Isra’el, 2 they approached Z’rubavel and the heads of fathers’ clans and said to them, “Let us build along with you; for we seek your God, just as you do; and we have been sacrificing to him since the time of Esar-Hadon king of Ashur, who brought us here.” 3 But Z’rubavel, Yeshua and the rest of the heads of fathers’ clans in Isra’el answered them, “You and we have nothing in common that you should join us in building a house for our God. We will build by ourselves for Adonai the God of Isra’el, as Koresh king of Persia ordered us to do.”

4 Then the people of the land began discouraging the people of Y’hudah, in order to make them afraid to build. 5 They also bribed officials to frustrate their plan throughout the lifetime of Koresh (Cyrus II, 559-536 B.C) king of Persia and on into the reign of Daryavesh (Darius I, 521-487 B.C.) king of Persia. 6 During the reign of Achashverosh ("Ahasuerus" or Xerxes I, Esther's husband, 486-466 B.C.), at the beginning of his reign, they brought a charge in writing against the people living in Y’hudah and Yerushalayim. 7 Then, during the time of Artach’shashta (Artaxerxes I, 465-425 B.C.), Bishlam, Mitr’dat, Tav’el and their other colleagues wrote Artach’shashta; the letter was written in Aramaic, using Aramaic script. 8 Rechum the district governor and Shimshai the secretary wrote a letter against Yerushalayim to Artach’shashta the king as follows:

9 “From Rechum the district governor, Shimshai the secretary, their other colleagues, the judges, the officials, the Dina’im, the Afarsat’khim, the Tarp’lim, the Afarsim, the Ark’vim, the Bavlim, the Shushan’kayim, the Dehayim, the ‘Elma’im, 10 the other nations whom the great and noble Asnapar deported and settled in Shomron, and the others who remain in the country beyond the [Euphrates] River.”
11 (This is the text of the letter they sent him.)

“To Artach’shashta the king from his servants the people beyond the River:
12 “Let the king know that the Judeans who left you to come to us in Yerushalayim are building this rebellious and wicked city. They have finished the walls and are now digging the foundations. 13 So let the king know that if this city is rebuilt and the walls are finished, they will refuse to pay tribute, tax or toll; and this will reduce the royal revenue. 14 Now, because we eat the king’s salt, and it is not right for us to see the king dishonored, we therefore are sending to inform the king, 15 so that a search can be made in the archives of your ancestors; in these archives you will find and ascertain that this city is indeed a rebellious city, the bane of kings and provinces, and that sedition has been fostered there since ancient times — which is why this city was destroyed. 16 We submit to the king that if this city is rebuilt and the walls are finished, you will soon lose possession of all territories beyond the River.”

17 The king sent this answer:

“To Rechum the district governor, Shimshai the secretary, their other colleagues living in Shomron, and the rest beyond the River:
“Shalom!

18 “The letter you sent us has now been translated for me. 19 I ordered a search made, and it was found that this city has a long history of revolt against kings, that rebellion and sedition have been fostered there; 20 also that there have been powerful kings over Yerushalayim who ruled all the territory beyond the River; and tribute, taxes and tolls were paid to them.

21 “So now, order that these men stop work and that this city not be rebuilt until I order it. 22 Take care not to neglect your duty; otherwise the harm may increase, to the damage of the king.”

23 When the text of King Artach’shashta’s letter was read before Rechum, Shimshai the secretary and their colleagues, they hurried to Yerushalayim to the Judeans and stopped their work by force of arms. 24 So the work on the house of God in Yerushalayim ceased; it remained at a standstill until the second year of the reign of Daryavesh (Darius II, 424-405 B.C.) king of Persia. (That would probably be 423 B.C.)
CJB

So, then, the people attempted to rebuild the Temple again when the Empire changed hands, with the encouragement from Hagai and Z'kharyahu (Haggai and Zechariah) the prophets.

Ezra 5:3-17
3 No sooner had they begun, when Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the [Euphrates] River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their colleagues came and asked them, “Who gave you permission to rebuild this house and finish this wall? 4 What are the names of the men putting up this building?” 5 But the eye of their God was on the leaders of the Judeans, so they didn’t stop them until the matter could come before Daryavesh and a reply in writing be received.

6 Here is the text of the letter which Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their fellow officials beyond the River sent to Daryavesh the king; 7 they sent him a letter in which it was written:

“To Daryavesh the king,

“Complete shalom!”

8 “Let the king know that we went to the province of Y’hudah, to the house of the great God. It is being rebuilt with large stones, and timber is being set in the walls. This work is being done energetically, and it is making good progress under the direction 9 of their leaders. We asked them, ‘Who gave you permission to rebuild this house and finish this wall?’ 10 We also asked them their names, so that we could write you the names of the men in charge of them.

11 “They gave us this answer: ‘We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth. We are rebuilding the house that was built many years ago, built and finished by a great king of Isra’el. 12 But because our ancestors provoked the God of heaven, he handed them over to N’vukhadnetzar king of Bavel, the Kasdi; he destroyed this house and carried the people off to Bavel. 13 But in the first year of Koresh king of Bavel, Koresh the king gave authorization to rebuild this house of God. 14 Moreover, the gold and silver articles belonging to the house of God, which N’vukhadnetzar had removed from the temple in Yerushalayim and brought to the temple of Bavel, Koresh the king took out of the temple in Bavel; they were turned over to a man named Sheshbatzar, whom he had appointed governor. 15 He said to him, “Take these articles, go, put them in the temple in Yerushalayim, and let the house of God be rebuilt on its original site.” 16 So this same Sheshbatzar came and laid the foundations of the house of God in Yerushalayim; it has been under construction ever since, and it isn’t finished yet.

17 “‘Now therefore, if it seems good to the king, let a search be made in the royal treasury there in Bavel to determine whether a decree was issued by Koresh the king to rebuild this house of God in Yerushalayim; and let the king send us his decision concerning this matter.’”
CJB

They thought that Daryavesh II (424-405 B.C.) would put an end to this building, but their letter backfired:

Ezra 6:1-12
6:1 Daryavesh the king issued an order; and search was made in the archives building, where treasures were stored in Bavel; 2 and there was found at Achm’ta, in the palace which is in the province of Media, a scroll on which was written the following:

“Memorandum:
3 “In the first year of Koresh the king, Koresh the king issued this decree: ‘Concerning the house of God in Yerushalayim, let the house be rebuilt, the place where they offer sacrifices; and let its foundations be firmly laid. Its height is to be ninety feet and its breadth ninety feet, 4 with three rows of large stones and one row of new timber. The expenses are to be charged to the king’s treasury. 5 Also let the gold and silver articles belonging to the house of God, which N’vukhadnetzar removed from the temple at Yerushalayim and brought to Bavel, be restored and returned to the temple in Yerushalayim, each item to its place; and you are to put them in the house of God.’

6 “Therefore, Tatnai governor of the territory beyond the River, Sh’tar-Boznai and your colleagues the officials beyond the River, stay away from there! 7 Let the work of this house of God alone. Let the governor of the Judeans and the leaders of the Judeans rebuild this house of God on its site.

8 “Moreover, I herewith issue this order concerning how you are to assist these leaders of the Judeans in rebuilding this house of God: the expenses of these men are to be defrayed promptly from the royal funds, from the taxes collected beyond the River, so that the work can continue. 9 Whatever they need — young bulls, rams and lambs — for burnt offerings to the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine and olive oil, according to what the cohanim in Yerushalayim say, is to be given them daily without fail; 10 so that they can offer sacrifices with a fragrant aroma to the God of heaven and pray for the life of the king and his sons.

11 “I also order that if anyone defies this order, a beam is to be pulled from his house; and he is to be lifted up and impaled on it. His house is to be reduced to rubble. 12 May the God who has caused his name to be there overthrow any king or people that tries to defy it and destroy this house of God in Yerushalayim.

“I, Daryavesh, have issued this order. Let it be carried out to the letter.”
CJB

Basically, Daryavesh (Darius II) said, "Yes, it's true! Koresh (Cyrus II) DID issue that decree! And, it hasn't been done, YET?! GET 'ER DONE! NO ONE DEFIES A PERSIAN DECREE!"

Ezra 6:13-17
13 Then Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the [Euphrates] River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their colleagues obeyed strictly; because Daryavesh the king had given the order to do so.

14 The leaders of the Judeans made good progress with the rebuilding, thanks to the prophesying of Hagai the prophet and Z’kharyah the son of ‘Iddo. They kept building until they were finished, in keeping with the command of the God of Isra’el and in accordance with the order of Koresh, Daryavesh and Artach’shashta (Artaxerxes II, 404-363 B.C.) king of Persia. 15 This house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of Daryavesh the king. 16 The people of Isra’el, the cohanim, the L’vi’im and the other people from the exile joyfully dedicated this house of God. 17 At the dedication of this house of God they offered 100 young bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and, as a sin offering for all Isra’el, twelve male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Isra’el.
CJB

It was after all of this happened that Ezra finally comes on the scene in Ezra 7:1-10. Thus, he didn't arrive in Yerushalayim until 398 B.C.!

So, the bottom line is that 454 B.C. (or 445 B.C., as I've also read some claim), is the WRONG ARTAXERXES! Artaxerxes I put a STOP to the building of the Temple! Ezra's Artaxerxes was Artaxerxes II and HIS "seventh year" would have been 398 B.C.! Besides, to MAKE 445 B.C. work, chronologers had to use 360-day years, claiming this was the Jewish "prophetic year." However, while months were decided by the lunar cycles (29.5 days --> 29-day months interspersed with 30-day months, not just all 30-day months), the year was determined by SEASONS, which are related to a SOLAR year, same as our own! Thus, we are looking at 365.2422-day years! In fact, if the months didn't work out to fulfill a year, a "leap MONTH" was added, a second Adar!

Retrobyter, In my studies I discovered much duality, In my studies I discovered much duality. And have been un-able to sherk it's accuracy. Discovery can be quite enlightening up also carries its traps and so descerning is required.

I have considered those ideals from them as well... and I do stand in complete agreement with you in that manner. That fear induced concept they provide do have a means to an end for them and it is $$$.

But, just maybe, not all of it is geard to that (I sincerely hope) there is also a possibility that much of it is also their personal (allbeit errored) fear or apprehension constituting a strong enthusiasm to warn others of a genuine danger - and i will say it once again... although in error.

Of course, the outcome has been $$$ for them and erred teachings to others.

terry said:

I have considered those ideals from them as well... and I do stand in complete agreement with you in that manner. That fear induced concept they provide do have a means to an end for them and it is $$$.

But, just maybe, not all of it is geard to that (I sincerely hope) there is also a possibility that much of it is also their personal (allbeit errored) fear or apprehension constituting a strong enthusiasm to warn others of a genuine danger - and i will say it once again... although in error.

Of course, the outcome has been $$$ for them and erred teachings to others.

Click to expand...

Oh, I don't associate all those on that false doctrine as doing it just for money. I believe quite a few of them are sincere in their belief. Still not good enough, because one must twist and degradize the Scriptures in order for their doctrine to even 'sound' plausible. And even then, all sort of holes still remain in their ideas after that. And that becomes very clear to the Bible student who studies God's Word line upon line for theirself with real discipline.

The problem is they will always find followers that are too lazy to study for themselves, and rely on someone else to interpret God's Word for them. And they will always be able to attract serpents who see their money opportunities with it also.

There's also the matter of spiritual blindness God has put upon many for this world with no other explanation for their acceptance of the doctrine. The excellent 19th century Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger is a case in point. He lived in the 1800's when the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine began and gained popularity in Britain. Bullinger accepted the idea, even though at the same time he showed great understanding of the events of the end per the OT prophets. It reveals that he got sucked into the doctrine, most likely because it becoming a popular idea in his day. If he were living today, I don't think he would still believe it, nor even Darby for that matter. Darby did first believe the spiritual manifestations going on in Edward Irving's church, but then later discounted them.

Revelation's 2 Witnesses

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. (Revelation 11:1-12 KJV)

Prophetic symbolism is defined by scripture. Many things in Revelation can be found almost word for word in other areas of scripture.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20, 21 KJV)

Holy men were moved by the Holy Ghost to speak. This would include prophets of the New Testament, and of the Old Testament. This means, these prophets of God, will all use the same symbolism in the prophecies in which they give: for it is not their prophecies, but God's.

In Revelation 11, we see that they (the two witnesses) "prophecy for one thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth". Directly after that verse we see that it says, "These are two OLIVE TREES, and two CANDLESTICKS standing before the God of the earth". Where can we find these two olive trees and candlestick in scripture?

And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts. (Zechariah 4:1-6 KJV)

Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. (Zechariah 4:11-14 KJV)

In Zechariah, we see the same things, olive trees and the candlestick. Then it is asked “Knowest thou not what these be?” Then we are told, that these things are, “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.” What two anointed ones stand by the Lord of the whole earth? What do the olive tree, and candlestick give, that would represent something not by the power of men, nor by the might of men, but by the spirit of the Lord?

And oil for the light, and spices for anointing oil, and for the sweet incense, (Exodus 35:8 KJV)

Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense, (Exodus 25:6 KJV)

The candlestick also for the light, and his furniture, and his lamps, with the oil for the light, (Exodus 35:14 KJV)

The oil from the olive tree is needed to give light, and the candlestick is needed to give light. What does Jesus say about light?

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. (Matthew 5:15 KJV)

And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick? (Mark 4:21 KJV)

No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. (Luke 8:16 KJV)

No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. (Luke 11:33 KJV)

The light which we receive, we are not to hide from the world. When we receive it, we are not to hide it, and keep it secret. We are to openly and boldly give the precious light that we have received. But what is that light?

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. (Psalm 119:105 KJV)

The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. (Psalm 119:130 KJV)

For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: (Proverbs 6:23 KJV)

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:19, 20 KJV)

That light for our feet, for us to walk the straight gate, is the Word of God. The Word of God gives light – such as his commandments, which are a lamp to us; his law gives us light. Our more sure word of prophecy is a light that shines brightly in a dark place. Our sure word of prophecy is the Word of God.

Can the Word of God be the two witnesses, which Jesus calls, “my two witnesses” be a witness of Jesus Christ? Of course it can! As Jesus says:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.(John 5:39 KJV)

The scriptures are the two witnesses of Jesus Christ.
The Old Testament tells you what?
It tells you that Jesus Christ is coming to die for you.
The New Testament tells you what?
It tells you that Jesus Christ has died for you.

To further prove this as fact, I would like to look at the time frame, from which these two witnesses are supposed to prophecy. The time designated was, “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” (a score meaning 20, so 3 score means 60). This time frame is the exact same time frame as the time frame in these areas:

Daniel 7:25 - And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 12:7 - And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Revelation 11:2-3 - But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 12:6 - And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:14 - And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 13:5 - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

In many areas, this prophetic time period is mentioned. The same time is either mentioned as a time (1 year), times (2 years), and half a time (half a year), 1260 days, or 42 months. Each and every time that this is mentioned, they are all speaking of the same time period. In Jewish months, there were 30 days to each month. 30 days times 42 moths equals 1260 days. With 12 months being in a year, we see that 42 months is a time, times, and half a time, or 3 &frac12; years.

So now, does this time period mean a LITERAL 3 &frac12; years; 42 months; 1260 days? No, it does not. This is a prophecy remember, so the time period, and the meanings of each thing are cloaked. This is a timed prophecy, just like Daniels 70 weeks is a timed prophecy. We know that when describing Daniel’s 70 Weeks, we know that a day = a year for the week. So literally, 1 week, which is 7 days, is actually 7 years. Now, is this within biblical jurisprudence? Does the Holy Ghost, which moved prophets of old time (like Isaiah and Ezekiel) move Daniel and John to speak with the same way?


Numbers 14:34 - After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Ezekiel 4:5-6 - For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.


So, the “day for a year” symbolism which applied in Numbers, Ezekiel, and the 70 weeks of Daniel, apply here also for the 3 &frac12; years; 42 months; 1260 days. All these same time frames literally mean 1260 years. So the two witnesses, the Old and the New Testaments, prophesied during the time when the beast power reigned for 1260 years.

Sorrry, Rae but it is 1,260 days not years. Each time God's Word expressed the days as years..God's word also stated that. This time you are assuming God's Word means that the days are years. The two witnesses will not live 1,260 years. Nor will they love 1,260 days. Their live will end with this 1,260day period, not also begin with it. The time of man living longer than 125 yeras is past and will not re-start until after armageeddon. Accordingly...if you understanding was correct then tribulations would last 2,520 years, with the abomination of desolation transpiring midpoint. This would mean the beast lives over 2.520 years as well.

This is not a tribulation topic, however I will say, the 7 Year Tribulation, is based off the Prophecy in Daniel, in which Christ died for us. Read Daniel 9, and you will see that has nothing to do with a "Tribulation", nor is an illogical time gap stuck in between Daniel's 69th and 70th Week.

It does mean years, as shown in Number and Ezekiel "a day for a year". As for Daniel's 70 week, it doesn't "state" that the 70 weeks literally means 490 years. However, by studying prophecy we come to know that fact. Daniel's 70th week, means 7 years. 1 week means 7 days. However, a day for a year prophecy applies there. So it literally means 7 years. This is essentially where the 7 year trib comes from. So again, yes, it does mean 1260 years.

As for the Beast's lifespan, the Beast is a "Kingdom" (Daniel 7:23shows what a beast is). A kingdom can easily exist for 1260 years, and prophecy proves that it did hands-down.

The day for a year idea is ONLY applicable to prophecy that shows to use it. In Dan.9:2, Daniel was studying the Jeremiah prophecy of their going captive to Babylon for 70 years. So that's the connection of the 70 weeks of years Daniel was given in that 9th chapter. In Ezekiel 4:6 it is emphatic to use a day for a year concerning only the prophecy given in that chapter. This does not mean we are to use that idea EVERYWHERE in God's Word as some try to do.