Two witnesses 2+2=2?

veteran said:

Look in the thread Flow of Daniel's 70 Weeks.

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1.The entire prophesy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of 70 weeks. Logic requires that 70 weeks referes to one consecutive block of time,in other words, to 70 straight sequential weeks. The truth is there is no such example in scripture (or anywhere else) of a stated time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references of time are consecutive, 40 days and 40 nights Gen 7:4 400 years in Egypt Gen 15:13 70 years of captivity Daniel 9:2 ect. In Daniels prophesy the 70 weeks were to being during the reign of Persia and continue to the time of the Messiah.

2. Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th. If it doesn't then it cannot be properly be called the 70th week.

3 It is illogical to insert a 2000 year gap between the 69th and the 70th week

4 Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a 7 year period of tribulation a rebuilt Jewish temple or any antichrist.

5 The stated focus of this prophesy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. After the Messiah is cut off [referring to Christ death] the text says, And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The Roman empire was yet to come providing this prince. Roman armies led by Prince Titus destroyed the temple and the city in 70 AD.

6 He shall confirm a covenant. Paul said "the covenant" was "confirmed before by God in Christ" Galatians 3:17 Jesus came to confirm the promise made to the fathers Romans 15:8 . In the KJV Daniel 9:27 doesn't say "a covenant" or peace treaty, but the covenant. The word covenant is always Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah not the antichrist.

7 He shall confirm the covenant with many. Jesus said, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many Matthew 26:28 behold a perfict fit Jesus is quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.

8 In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. After exactly 3.5 years of holy ministry, Jesus died on the cross in the midst of the week.At His death the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom Matthew 27:51 This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. The perfect sacrifice had been offered.

9 "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" The abomination of desolation Matthew 24:15 is not a simple subject, yet we know Jesus clearly applied this event to a time when his followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD In a parallel text to Matthew 24:15 Jesus told His disciples, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies [Roman armies led by Prince Titus] then know that its desolation is near Luke 21:20 . Of the Pharisees, Jesus told them. See your house is left to you desolate Matthew 23:38 fulfilled in 70 AD.

veteran said:

Look in the thread Flow of Daniel's 70 Weeks. And I hadn't noticed you asking me anything about that subject here.

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I have not asked on this page? My apologies if I have not, but I do know I have continually asked it, on another topic. And people have tried to give me their manmade explanations - but there is no scripture to support it. 70 prophetic weeks, being 490 literal years is not split up. And if you will assume a break within this definite time prophecy, why do you not assume a break in your flow chart? And again, your flow chart proves nothing, because you cannot back up the root claim, which is that Daniel's 70 weeks is a split prophecy. 70 prophetic weeks meant 70 prophetic weeks. If God intended there to be more, he would have specified. But he gave a set time frame. Where is the scriptural proof that Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is split up.

Also, please view Rex's post.

Rex said:

1.The entire prophesy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of 70 weeks. Logic requires that 70 weeks referes to one consecutive block of time,in other words, to 70 straight sequential weeks. The truth is there is no such example in scripture (or anywhere else) of a stated time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references of time are consecutive, 40 days and 40 nights Gen 7:4 400 years in Egypt Gen 15:13 70 years of captivity Daniel 9:2 ect. In Daniels prophesy the 70 weeks were to being during the reign of Persia and continue to the time of the Messiah.

2. Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th. If it doesn't then it cannot be properly be called the 70th week.

3 It is illogical to insert a 2000 year gap between the 69th and the 70th week

4 Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a 7 year period of tribulation a rebuilt Jewish temple or any antichrist.

5 The stated focus of this prophesy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. After the Messiah is cut off [referring to Christ death] the text says, And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The Roman empire was yet to come providing this prince. Roman armies led by Prince Titus destroyed the temple and the city in 70 AD.

6 He shall confirm a covenant. Paul said "the covenant" was "confirmed before by God in Christ" Galatians 3:17 Jesus came to confirm the promise made to the fathers Romans 15:8 . In the KJV Daniel 9:27 doesn't say "a covenant" or peace treaty, but the covenant. The word covenant is always Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah not the antichrist.

7 He shall confirm the covenant with many. Jesus said, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many Matthew 26:28 behold a perfict fit Jesus is quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.

8 In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. After exactly 3.5 years of holy ministry, Jesus died on the cross in the midst of the week.At His death the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom Matthew 27:51 This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. The perfect sacrifice had been offered.

9 "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" The abomination of desolation Matthew 24:15 is not a simple subject, yet we know Jesus clearly applied this event to a time when his followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD In a parallel text to Matthew 24:15 Jesus told His disciples, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies [Roman armies led by Prince Titus] then know that its desolation is near Luke 21:20 . Of the Pharisees, Jesus told them. See your house is left to you desolate Matthew 23:38 fulfilled in 70 AD.

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Thankyou, and Amen.

I just found out where this 2+2 thing came from...I went to youtube and tried to watch videos on this subject. The videos was little more than a leader reciting that which is in God's Word already, and long drawn out videos with no actual meat and potatoes other than what is already written point blank about them... no deep thought or constructive teachings. So..someone makes a youtube video and a bunch of people readit memorize much of it and then project themselves as knowledgable. Ridgerunner, I am NOTclaiming that is what you have done here, I do not know, only you. I hope you simply posted this as another perspective. Ah well, i will look into these videos andd see if ANYONE has come up with a proper testt for them prior to their 1,260 day period of power. If so, I will gladly post that test and reveal the two witnesses.

terry said:

I just found out where this 2+2 thing came from...I went to youtube and tried to watch videos on this subject. The videos was little more than a leader reciting that which is in God's Word already, and long drawn out videos with no actual meat and potatoes other than what is already written point blank about them... no deep thought or constructive teachings. So..someone makes a youtube video and a bunch of people readit memorize much of it and then project themselves as knowledgable. Ridgerunner, I am NOTclaiming that is what you have done here, I do not know, only you. I hope you simply posted this as another perspective. Ah well, i will look into these videos andd see if ANYONE has come up with a proper testt for them prior to their 1,260 day period of power. If so, I will gladly post that test and reveal the two witnesses.

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I have a test for your witnesses.
Isaiah 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony; If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Please ask these two witnesses how they feel about the Law of God. If they reject any commandment to be followed, please point them to my "Mark of the Beast or Seal of God" topic. They may just be unawares of that truth. But It is required that they are tested first. Thankyou.

Allow me to see if I have this straight...You honestly think they would speak against the laws of God? Of course theey would not. Point them to YOUR Mark of the Beast or Seal of God Topic? What do you mean by that? Do you want to see if they AGREE with YOUR interpretation of God's Word - meaning if they do not agree with you then either of these two witnesses or both of them are WRONG? Would you not be considering yourself above a prophet in requesting that? You are kidding right?

Understand this also... Solomon was the wisest of all prophets... this of course means the other prophets were NOT as wise.. so to consider a prophet to be perfect in their understanding...especially before they are given power as a prophet is an error.

Ok.... maybe and hopefully I have mis-understood you intentions or meanings.. so please give more exacting details on what it is you are trying to request. AND I would add that even if my understanding of your request is exact... you have achieved a higher level of persuit in this discovery than anyone else in this forum thuss far.. so I tip my hat at your effort.

Please be not dismayed by my post though the questions and answers I provided are my thoughts... my intention is to encourage you to delve deeper.

Is it possible they could be unaware...in the sense you mean? surely. Do the two witnesses think by themsleves, they are worthy....not at all... except they know they are through Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

How do they feel about the Law of God? The Law of God is given to allow man to discover righteousness in its purest form. Righteousness in its purest form leads to the greatest of all things God is.... and that is LOVE. Was this question meant to be difficult?

The Mark of the Beast is a physical mark. No one may buy or sell without the Beast's Mark... furthermore... Sores will develop becasue of the east's Mark... Moreover... those without the Beast's Mark will be persecuted.. and that means one must be able to tell if anothe has the mark or not. Those that must be able to tell are NOT Christians... for they have the Beast's Mark... so thie is no "holy" sense for them to tell who does or does not have the Mark of the Beast. Also, we know the world does indeed already have the capabilities for implementingg a variety of Marks that can be unified by the Beast.

terry said:

Allow me to see if I have this straight...You honestly think they would speak against the laws of God? Of course theey would not. Point them to YOUR Mark of the Beast or Seal of God Topic? What do you mean by that? Do you want to see if they AGREE with YOUR interpretation of God's Word - meaning if they do not agree with you then either of these two witnesses or both of them are WRONG? Would you not be considering yourself above a prophet in requesting that? You are kidding right?

Understand this also... Solomon was the wisest of all prophets... this of course means the other prophets were NOT as wise.. so to consider a prophet to be perfect in their understanding...especially before they are given power as a prophet is an error.

Ok.... maybe and hopefully I have mis-understood you intentions or meanings.. so please give more exacting details on what it is you are trying to request. AND I would add that even if my understanding of your request is exact... you have achieved a higher level of persuit in this discovery than anyone else in this forum thuss far.. so I tip my hat at your effort.

Please be not dismayed by my post though the questions and answers I provided are my thoughts... my intention is to encourage you to delve deeper.

Is it possible they could be unaware...in the sense you mean? surely. Do the two witnesses think by themsleves, they are worthy....not at all... except they know they are through Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

How do they feel about the Law of God? The Law of God is given to allow man to discover righteousness in its purest form. Righteousness in its purest form leads to the greatest of all things God is.... and that is LOVE. Was this question meant to be difficult?

The Mark of the Beast is a physical mark. No one may buy or sell without the Beast's Mark... furthermore... Sores will develop becasue of the east's Mark... Moreover... those without the Beast's Mark will be persecuted.. and that means one must be able to tell if anothe has the mark or not. Those that must be able to tell are NOT Christians... for they have the Beast's Mark... so thie is no "holy" sense for them to tell who does or does not have the Mark of the Beast. Also, we know the world does indeed already have the capabilities for implementingg a variety of Marks that can be unified by the Beast.

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Terry; you are seriously misinterpretting my words. It has nothing to do with "me" so to speak. Yes, I posted that topic, but it's not all about "me." I have a request, and if these are true, I would like it fulfilled. Why am I asking for the request though, is it about me? I am told by the Word of God to test all things. What better way to test, that by what Isaiah 8:20 says? To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I don't know what those you claim would do. But this is how they are tested. If they belittle God's law, any of it, they have no light in them. There are only two possibilities at that point.

1) "They have run, and I have not sent them". They're false, plain and simple.

2) Prophets are human beings like us. They have to learn truth, and sometimes they err, hence why I said go to the topic I posted. Yes, it's "my" topic, because I started the post, but it's not my message.

Not to be rude, but I am not interested in games. I have a request about these supposed two witnesses. You need to take the Bible to them, to test them. You need to actually test the two, who claim to be some great prophets - if that's their claim. To the law and to the testimony, Terry.

I understand the law points out sin, and teaches us the standard of righteousness. It also teaches us how to love on another. Just as Romans 13:9 says, those commandments, to summarize them, is just to say love your neighbor as yourself. Notice; this is a summary. As the Bible says, it is "briefly comprehended". The summary points back to the original paragraphs, or in this case, the original 10 commandments. We are under a requirement to be obediant to God, but I believe you understand that.

Further, you have yet to provide me Biblical proof that "frontlets of thine eyes" and "bind it for a sign upon thine hands" is a literal sign. Please don't just post Revelations verse. That's the one we're figuring out the meaning for. That's not the interpretation of it. 2 Peter 1:20 tells us not to guess like that. If you search the scriptures Terry, you'll find that the mark is not physical. I've given you 4 sections in the old testament, and 2 in the new testament, which all talk about marking someone's spiritual walk, and that upon the hands and forehead is not literal, but the words laid in their hearts is a sign upon their hands and forehead. It is a spiritual Mark. Please, provide me with a Biblical Basis for a literal Mark.If you cannot, I ask that you please seriously analyze this belief. Not to upset you, but that you are blessed with the truth in scriptures.

Raeneske said:

I have not asked on this page? My apologies if I have not, but I do know I have continually asked it, on another topic. And people have tried to give me their manmade explanations - but there is no scripture to support it. 70 prophetic weeks, being 490 literal years is not split up. And if you will assume a break within this definite time prophecy, why do you not assume a break in your flow chart? And again, your flow chart proves nothing, because you cannot back up the root claim, which is that Daniel's 70 weeks is a split prophecy. 70 prophetic weeks meant 70 prophetic weeks. If God intended there to be more, he would have specified. But he gave a set time frame. Where is the scriptural proof that Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is split up.

Also, please view Rex's post.



Thankyou, and Amen.

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The flow chart I made here proves everything simply because it is a direct representation of the flow of events of the final "one week" period of Daniel 9:27 and its associated prophecies in the Book of Daniel about the end.

All you're trying to do is discredit it in order to push some other agenda you have against the written Scriptures.

terry said:

I just found out where this 2+2 thing came from...I went to youtube and tried to watch videos on this subject. The videos was little more than a leader reciting that which is in God's Word already, and long drawn out videos with no actual meat and potatoes other than what is already written point blank about them... no deep thought or constructive teachings. So..someone makes a youtube video and a bunch of people readit memorize much of it and then project themselves as knowledgable. Ridgerunner, I am NOTclaiming that is what you have done here, I do not know, only you. I hope you simply posted this as another perspective. Ah well, i will look into these videos andd see if ANYONE has come up with a proper testt for them prior to their 1,260 day period of power. If so, I will gladly post that test and reveal the two witnesses.

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Well since the annointed ones are personal freinds of yours,would you mind giving us a preview of there coming testimony.

Pelaides... Surely, And... I can do better than that. There are certain things that must be done, like the boundaries of Israel being in thier proper location anf the Philistines being removed from Israel. These are a priority IF they had not already been accomplished. See by the two witnesses dfoing these things the Jews...Israel cannot be blamed. This also entails a protection to see these things are NOT undone. They do not have to go to Israel to complete this task and while still here in the USA there is much work to be done here also.; This country used to be primarily Christian.. and it is still said to be so, BUT the actions and laws of this laand have diminished this... Because this country is so very young and had not had to endure the hardships of ancient lands when going against God... These two winesses will see to it USA is given an opportunioty to endure hardships on a Biblical scale. When things get their worst is when men turn to God the most... they will see this is done.
This new land... the Americas does indeed deserve to see first hand the sufferring the ancient lands went through for their denial of God. The Americas has not had the opportunity to feel the effecfts of real prophets and been given the chance to repent amid the plagues and such by prophets. This will be done. Jesus the Christ has given Grace to the World and this includes the Americas and God is not ambigious and so... the two witnesses knowing this... will provide these things of thiert will and Grace is not infringed.

In USA (and in other countries too, but) there is a growing populous accepting abortions.. this needs attention and correction.
There are milk cartons all over the place with pictures of missing children and this needs attention.
There is a government in place in USA that has perverted itself and it needs attention
There is this new country that has oh so developed its military might to a point it thinks it should force its desires on any country in the world.. first trying to enter in through peace to subdue any others countrie's governmnet then with war if needed. This USA tries to show itself as a righteous country attacking the problems other countries face but hiding its own perverstions. much attention is required for this country.

Then, there is the ancient countries always trying to do away with God, all the while knowing in their past experiences God has always shown himself to be victorious. This includes the Arab countried that think they should be above everyone and then the Roman Countries that think they ARE above everyone. There is plenty of work for the two witneses.
want more? anything specific?

terry said:

Pelaides... Surely, And... I can do better than that. There are certain things that must be done, like the boundaries of Israel being in thier proper location anf the Philistines being removed from Israel. These are a priority IF they had not already been accomplished. See by the two witnesses dfoing these things the Jews...Israel cannot be blamed. This also entails a protection to see these things are NOT undone. They do not have to go to Israel to complete this task and while still here in the USA there is much work to be done here also.; This country used to be primarily Christian.. and it is still said to be so, BUT the actions and laws of this laand have diminished this... Because this country is so very young and had not had to endure the hardships of ancient lands when going against God... These two winesses will see to it USA is given an opportunioty to endure hardships on a Biblical scale. When things get their worst is when men turn to God the most... they will see this is done.
This new land... the Americas does indeed deserve to see first hand the sufferring the ancient lands went through for their denial of God. The Americas has not had the opportunity to feel the effecfts of real prophets and been given the chance to repent amid the plagues and such by prophets. This will be done. Jesus the Christ has given Grace to the World and this includes the Americas and God is not ambigious and so... the two witnesses knowing this... will provide these things of thiert will and Grace is not infringed.

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All that when the Revelation 11 prophecy about the two witnesses are to specifically work IN JERUSALEM??? You are way off base from the actual prophecy about them that is written.

Rev 11:8-10
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(KJV)

Does that last verse say, "And they that dwell in America shall rejoice over them..."? No, it does not. Instead it is applied to the deceived in ALL nations upon earth for that time.

And what, America has never had to suffer through trials and tribulations in its history?? What kind of reasoning is that? Compared to old Israel's history, the western nations (which should be included with the U.S.), have gone through some terrible times equal to times that old Israel in OT times underwent. Surely I don't need to list them here, for there shouldn't be any babes here that don't already understand those periods in western history.

I don't know who you're listening to about all that Terry, but they do NOT represent God nor His people.

The rest of your post is nothing more than a crazy tirade against the blessings God has bestowed upon the United States of America. Many of our European brothers say the same crazy stuff about Americans when they themselves have the very SAME set of problems in their own European nations!

And it is very popular today for SOCIALIST false Jews to do that bad-mouthing against America specifically, when what they really imply is their HATRED of America for 'other' reasons. What other reasons? For one, the still GREAT NUMBER of Christian peoples in America that are AGAINST those evils you mention, and that are STILL making a stand against the 'false Jew' SOCIALISTS that push them! And of course their hatred is especially because of how the American people STILL refuse to be conquered by them, and still refuse to hand in their weapons so they can easily be conquered by its enemies!

It's clear to me now that you are just another one here of several busy listening to the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" that our Lord Jesus warned His servants about in Rev.2 & 3.

I assure you in this matter I am not off even a mere particle. And it does not say where they will dwell.

In my reference to the problems USA has suffere I limited it to Biblical problems... perhaps I should explain deeper.
This means.... of a Biblical nautre such as those occuring due to the actions of prophets. This does not mean problems secular in nature nor problems caused within the realm of nature.

You worte: " I don't know who you're listening to about all that Terry, but they do NOT represent God nor His people. "
You are correct hwhere you claimed they do not represent God's chosen people if you refer to the Jews. but they certainly do represent God, as all prophets of God do.

you also wrote: " It's clear to me now that you are just another one here of several busy listening to the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" that our Lord Jesus warned His servants about in Rev.2 & 3. "

And that is very untrue... my perspective has a completely different origin. You sound extremely patriotic by this comment. Understand I am not patriotic, in fact I am an extremely objectional person, unwilling to allow a flaw to be hidden or a truth denied, just because I want it that way. Though this was not the way I was raised... I saw the problems with blind trust in people, organizations and governments at an early age and did not care for it. I have an entire family including grandparents, uncles, aunts brothers and sisters mom and dad...that when issues arose of consequence... turned to me even at a young age becasue of this trait. This does not mean I can not appreciate patriotism when it is righteous. If you wish to consider USA righteous that is your progrative, but it is the entire world..incluing USA that will come against Israel andit is with God's chosen people and Christians my loyalities reside and it is that way becasue of our Heavenly Father and his Son.

I have contempt for Socialism. And this country is headed full speed and head-on into it. Go ahead Vet, talk the two witnesses out of persecuting USA and allow it to become fully socialist then you can be responsible for USA's demise.

Hatred for my country??? Wrong.... allow me to tell you what my feelings are for USA... this is pretty simple I love my Country... I hate our government. Ourgovernment is becomming more corrupt each day. It allows abortions, same sex marriages things that most certainly offend my God. And it is getting worse. Socialist? not by a long shot.
Bad mouthing America??? oh no... this country has been the first to assist other countrys in times of dire straights. You must separate the hearts of Americans from the desires of this government to understand how I feel.

The rest of your post is nothing more than a crazy tirade against the blessings God has bestowed upon the United States of America.
Open your eyes Veteran... you are right God has bestowed many blessings.. and for it.. this country has man marrying man, woman marrying woman, convience abortions... I should say it more accurately... Convience Mass Mrudering of Babies. Free religion in this country has been perverted to denial of God and Jesus. And there is so much more... A man is being beaten... and if allowed to continue...probably beaten to death... he pulls out a gun and shoots his attacker and what... due to skin color, public outcry - due to skin color... political unrest... this guy is on trial for 2nd degree murder...

Lookup the name Patrick Joseph O'lynn (PJ)---- he is like a brother to our entire family. His entire family is a family to me! He was beaten and had no gun to shoot his attacker. He was beaten just because he was in a parking lot alone. He was so badly beaten he had to re-leran to walk...but before he could do that he had to wait until he could see again. Before that he had to wait until he was out of a coma. It will take him the rest of his life to recover.. if he is lucky and his attacker... he will get released from prison a long time before PJ recovers. PJ will nver work again. Hid assailant was a person of color, PJ is white. These two crimes mirror each other except PJ never said anything or did anything that could have provoked his assailant. Now, if you think I could not know this last bit of information...you are worng... you would only need to know PJ.
Or you could just understand the rest of the story... the assailant was wanting to join a gang and to enter he must beat someone to near death or kill him. - that information was left out of the news. This event tool place about a year before the other one mentioned here.


Do you really wish the two witnesses leave this country untouched, that it has no reason to repent? Or would you rather USA have the most stringent of plagues that it has the best possible chance to desire repentance? My post is not crazy... although, remember... the entire world will rejoyce at the death of the two witesses.... ( do you think that USA will be ommitted? )... and therefore the world WILL think they are and were CRAZY!

veteran said:

The flow chart I made here proves everything simply because it is a direct representation of the flow of events of the final "one week" period of Daniel 9:27 and its associated prophecies in the Book of Daniel about the end.

All you're trying to do is discredit it in order to push some other agenda you have against the written Scriptures.

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Excuse me, you can have all the fluff around your prophecy you want. You have builded a house upon sand, and not upon The Rock. You can look and say "I have a house! Look at my house, it proves that I have the best home". But your house is built upon sand. Your prophecy, though built up, has no foundation. I have nothing against the scriptures. What I have, is a problem with doctrines being passed off without an explanation. Give me the Biblical Basis, for Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy being split up, it being an arbitrary split, and please show me where God commands His definite prophecies to actually be indefinite. And then, prove to me that every other definite time period in the Bible is not an indefinite period, like your assumption on Daniel's 70 weeks.

#146 Raeneske wrote: Terry; you are seriously misinterpretting my words. No, I was asking for clarification.

You need to take the Bible to them, to test them. You need to actually test the two, who claim to be some great prophets - if that's their claim. To the law and to the testimony, Terry.
I have absolute zero need of testing them. I tested the vision God gave that identified them.

2 Peter 1:20 tells us not to guess like that. If you search the scriptures Terry, you'll find that the mark is not physical.
Then, right after telling me not to guess you guess? Your understainding is it is Not a Physical Mark, My understand tells WHY it MUST be a physsical Mark. NMow let us examine that. If your claim is right then CERTAINLY mankind MUST change his abilities or ADD another sensory organ. For people will be able to recognize those with and those without the mark of the beast. I consider it that they can SEE it. Your prospective claims that mankind will suddenly develop another sensery organ to distinguish whether or not a person has this mark. Now, show me how you get around this... new organ.... I'm interested. AND then please explain how the people get sores due to a mark that is not there.Then perhaps you caqn explain why the world has come uo with so many MARKS that could easily be unified by the BEAST to allow currency exchange in a cashless society.

mind games? My understanding is forthright and direct, simple easy and already in positioning for being unified and made manditory.

Raeneske said:

Excuse me, you can have all the fluff around your prophecy you want. You have builded a house upon sand, and not upon The Rock. You can look and say "I have a house! Look at my house, it proves that I have the best home". But your house is built upon sand. Your prophecy, though built up, has no foundation. I have nothing against the scriptures. What I have, is a problem with doctrines being passed off without an explanation. Give me the Biblical Basis, for Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy being split up, it being an arbitrary split, and please show me where God commands His definite prophecies to actually be indefinite. And then, prove to me that every other definite time period in the Bible is not an indefinite period, like your assumption on Daniel's 70 weeks.

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I see you providing NOTHING to back any... of that up. My challenge to you to define the events of Daniel 9:27 still stands!

Raeneske I had said...I tip my hat for your effort, I showed why your test was not valid and your responce is to claim I am playing mind games???Exactly why do you think I should even consider revealing the two witnesses to a person so brash? This discovery help me zero, it only helps others wanting to learn. It helps the two witnesses... zero. It only helps others to strenghten thier faith. Hostility is a viable method to achieve this knowledge? And Since the world will hate them so much they will exchange gifts at their deaths, you might as well start now? I tell you that is lame.

Would a true prophet of God be able to claim a false prophecy if that prophet did not wnat to? And if he wanted to would it make him no longer a prophet? My contention is NO to the first question and YES to the second question... but could I be in error on these points?

Next, would God select as the Two Witnesses... two people will a history of understanding Revelation prophecy and Tribulation prophecy and not understand it correctly...even if their understanding was not in great detail because the seals (Most of themanyway) have yet to be opened? My answer would be NO to this..am I in error again?

My path is to gain the perspectives of others to increase my understanding and to show my perspectives that others can gain from my understanding... It is not to make enemies or cause distain. I understand how "cold" writing an opinion, belief, understanding, feeling, taught by doctrine, self-taught research, ardent DNA imbedded..."I know it is true", or real or false visions can be to project so I write little scripts like this to display my sentiments of " its ok" let us learn compassion. This means thou I may sound very harsh... I do not want it to be taken that way.

Now If I was one of the two witnesses, You might find me in vegas doing standup. why? 2 reasons I really am good at it when I want to be AND the world as my oyster.. I would have acaptive audience!

veteran said:

I see you providing NOTHING to back any... of that up. My challenge to you to define the events of Daniel 9:27 still stands!

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I don't like these "challenges" but I defined it in the other topic, but i'll repost it here. And sorry, but you bear the burden of proof when splitting up 490 literal years, into more than 2000 literal years - Not I.

I had said:

Thankyou for asking. I would be happy to point this out - though often ignored. (Also, I just now saw your new post, for some reason, my notifications did not take me to the recent post.)

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:24-27 KJV)

70 prophetic weeks, being 490 literal years were given to Israel to finish sinning, and accept the Messiah, and rebuild Jerusalem.

We know that after 69 weeks, the Messiah shall be cut off. To be after 69 weeks, is to be in the 70th week. In the 70th week of Daniel the Messiah shall be cut off. But he shall not be cut off for Himself.

We know this means, that Jesus would die, but not for himself. The language is prophetic in nature, but we can grasp that understanding. And then we know that after that, the people of the prince shall come and destroy the city. Then the next verse goes onto to talk about the Messiah again, and then the city again. This he is Jesus Christ. He confirmed the covenant with many Israelites for one prophetic week. From His baptism, all the way up to Steven's death. Those were 7 years. In the midst of that however, Jesus died. In 27 AD he was baptized, and in 30 AD he was crucified. In 34 AD, Stephen was stoned, and Israel's time was over. Jesus caused all the sacrifice and oblations to cease. At the very point of His death, all animal sacrifices became absolutely worthless. Did they "literally cease"? No, it's prophetic language. It ceased to matter anymore, it was of absolutely no importance once Jesus died. He represented every sacrifice. And for the overspreading of abominations, He shall make it desolate. What shall be desolate? The city, for their abominations. [/b]

Ezekial 6 is one of the many examples of God desolating Israel, for their abominations:

And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars. In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the Lord. Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries. And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations. And they shall know that I am the Lord, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them. Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence. He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them. Then shall ye know that I am the Lord, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols. So will I stretch out my hand upon them, and make the land desolate, yea, more desolate than the wilderness toward Diblath, in all their habitations: and they shall know that I am the Lord. (Ezekiel 6:3-14 KJV)

No, Ezekial 6 is not the definition of Daniel 9. It is only an example. For rejecting the Messiah, crucifying Him, and continuing in their forms of religion, instead of the actual religion of Judaism, that pointed to Christ, they had an overspreading of abominations. For all that, and for rejecting Jesus, they were to be made desolate.

terry said:

#146 Raeneske wrote: Terry; you are seriously misinterpretting my words. No, I was asking for clarification.

You need to take the Bible to them, to test them. You need to actually test the two, who claim to be some great prophets - if that's their claim. To the law and to the testimony, Terry.
I have absolute zero need of testing them. I tested the vision God gave that identified them.

2 Peter 1:20 tells us not to guess like that. If you search the scriptures Terry, you'll find that the mark is not physical.
Then, right after telling me not to guess you guess? Your understainding is it is Not a Physical Mark, My understand tells WHY it MUST be a physsical Mark. NMow let us examine that. If your claim is right then CERTAINLY mankind MUST change his abilities or ADD another sensory organ. For people will be able to recognize those with and those without the mark of the beast. I consider it that they can SEE it. Your prospective claims that mankind will suddenly develop another sensery organ to distinguish whether or not a person has this mark. Now, show me how you get around this... new organ.... I'm interested. AND then please explain how the people get sores due to a mark that is not there.Then perhaps you caqn explain why the world has come uo with so many MARKS that could easily be unified by the BEAST to allow currency exchange in a cashless society.

mind games? My understanding is forthright and direct, simple easy and already in positioning for being unified and made manditory.

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Sorry Terry, seems like you're being cryptic with your conversations. That's my misunderstanding, I apologize for that.

As for 2 Peter 1:20, now i'm gonna post something for you. Because you have asserted again, that my information has my own interpretation.

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. (Deuteronomy 6:6-8 KJV)

Can you please tell me how it's possible for Israel to literally lay the words which God had commanded they put in their hearts, and for them to bind the words God commanded upon their hands or upon their foreheads? Can you please tell me how it is literally possible to do that?

Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. (Deuteronomy 11:18, 19 KJV)

Can you please explain how it is literally possible for these words again, to be bound upon their hands and their foreheads? How are the commands they are supposed to teach their children literally gonna be bound upon their hands and their forehead? Are they gonna tape the commandments to their hands and forehead? Or perhaps, glue the words on their hands and their forehead.

Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters. And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the Lord did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the Lord brought thee out of Egypt. (Exodus 13:7-9 KJV)

Here's a question. How are they going to bind the feast of unleavened bread upon their hands and foreheads, literally? Wrap bread around their heads and hands?

So, now tell me something. If all this is obviously spiritual, and not literal, why is the Mark of the Beast, which is a counterfeit of God's seal, supposedly a literal Mark? Where does the Bible teach that the signs upon God's childrens hands and forehead, are literal. Where does it ever associate "hands and forehead" to be a literal mark placed on your hands and forehead? If the seal of God is not a literal mark upon us, why is the Mark of the Beast? The problem is Terry, it makes no sense to know it's spiritual everywhere else, yet for some reason, we come to the Mark of the Beast, and we call it literal. That makes no sense.

terry said:

Raeneske I had said...I tip my hat for your effort, I showed why your test was not valid and your responce is to claim I am playing mind games???Exactly why do you think I should even consider revealing the two witnesses to a person so brash? This discovery help me zero, it only helps others wanting to learn. It helps the two witnesses... zero. It only helps others to strenghten thier faith. Hostility is a viable method to achieve this knowledge? And Since the world will hate them so much they will exchange gifts at their deaths, you might as well start now? I tell you that is lame.

Would a true prophet of God be able to claim a false prophecy if that prophet did not wnat to? And if he wanted to would it make him no longer a prophet? My contention is NO to the first question and YES to the second question... but could I be in error on these points?

Next, would God select as the Two Witnesses... two people will a history of understanding Revelation prophecy and Tribulation prophecy and not understand it correctly...even if their understanding was not in great detail because the seals (Most of themanyway) have yet to be opened? My answer would be NO to this..am I in error again?

My path is to gain the perspectives of others to increase my understanding and to show my perspectives that others can gain from my understanding... It is not to make enemies or cause distain. I understand how "cold" writing an opinion, belief, understanding, feeling, taught by doctrine, self-taught research, ardent DNA imbedded..."I know it is true", or real or false visions can be to project so I write little scripts like this to display my sentiments of " its ok" let us learn compassion. This means thou I may sound very harsh... I do not want it to be taken that way.

Now If I was one of the two witnesses, You might find me in vegas doing standup. why? 2 reasons I really am good at it when I want to be AND the world as my oyster.. I would have acaptive audience!

Click to expand...

Again, I apologize if I sounded rude. Your language sounded cryptic, and I did not want a cryptic message.

The witnesses don't go on your tests. They go on God's test. The Bible tells you how to test a prophet. It tells you how to test anyone. Isaiah 8:20. If these supposed prophets belittle the Law of God, I made my statement. Sorry if I sound "brash", i'd rather it sound "bold". God says not to despise prophecying, but to test the Spirits. You use the Bible to test the Spirits. If they do not agree to keeping the Law of God, they're false. "I have not sent them, and yet they have run."

The test is very valid. If they belittle the Law of God, they're false. I can understand if they had not yet the truth, but if they had heard it and they reject it; it's false. Isaiah 8:20 is very plain. Regardless of whether they agreed with a supposed vision or not. They must adhere to the Law and the Testimony, or else they're false, plain and simple.

Raeneske said:

I don't like these "challenges" but I defined it in the other topic, but i'll repost it here. And sorry, but you bear the burden of proof when splitting up 490 literal years, into more than 2000 literal years - Not I.

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That kind of response won't work. It's an automatic loser in a debate too, a forfeited defeat even.

You're abiding by someone's else's theories of prophecy (Ellen White's) instead of actually seeking out understanding for yourself in the Scripture with God's direct help.

So most definitely, the burden of the proof is upon you!


And if anyone here has already split up the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy, it certainly has been YOU! But you wouldn't really know about that would you, since you're only regirgitating Ellen's White's understanding and not even your own!

That's why you cannot 'rightly divide' the events of Dan.9:27 as they are written. Not because you don't want to, it's because you cannot.

veteran said:

That kind of response won't work. It's an automatic loser in a debate too, a forfeited defeat even.

You're abiding by someone's else's theories of prophecy (Ellen White's) instead of actually seeking out understanding for yourself in the Scripture with God's direct help.

So most definitely, the burden of the proof is upon you!


And if anyone here has already split up the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy, it certainly has been YOU! But you wouldn't really know about that would you, since you're only regirgitating Ellen's White's understanding and not even your own!

That's why you cannot 'rightly divide' the events of Dan.9:27 as they are written. Not because you don't want to, it's because you cannot.

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Really Veteran? The burden of proof is upon me to prove that the 70th week doesn't logically follow the 69th week? No, you're preaching that Daniel's 70th week begins in the future, whereas the 69th week happened far in the past. I'm not the one inserting an illogical gap between this prophecy. You are. I asked for you to back this up. There is no proof for the assertion that the 70th week begins in the future. I asked for the proof, I received none.

I have not split up Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. I have shown, that the number 70, logically follows the number 69. If you cannot comprehend this, I am sorry.

You have contintually asserted your hatred for what Ellen White said, and because I agree with her. And then, you have accused me of not thinking for myself. Excuse me, for agreeing with someone, who disagrees with the creed of the 7 year tribulation. I asked for logical proof, and you gave me none. No one has. And yet, if shown their creed is in error in light of scriptures, how many people actually give it up? Your prophecy is fluff. I have explained myself continually, but I haven't so much as gotten a Biblical explanation for disassembling Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, to mean more than 490 years.

So, now tell me something. If all this is obviously spiritual, and not literal, why is the Mark of the Beast, which is a counterfeit of God's seal, supposedly a literal Mark?
Just two of my poasts back I explained it in detail.... this means you are not paying any attention at all... and that means you are everything Vetran said you are....
You cannot get past what I wrote so you attemp to sidestep it? Get past that people must recognize those with the mark and without... and those with the mark of the beast can buy and sell but those without the mark cannot and those without the mark will be persecuted. When you attempt to claim it must be a counterfiet your continuation proves you "think" it must also be a counterfiet duplicate... that is an assumption and is al;so not valid. Understand a counterfiet twenty dollar bill is not necessarily a perfect replicate...in fact beyond most of the time the counterfiets are easily descernable. This means This means You have decided there is a line in the sand and You think You have the right to draw where it is. No where in God's Word does it say rthe Mark of the Beast even resembles any type of Mark gave anywhere.

Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. (Deuteronomy 11:18, 19 KJV)

Can you please explain how it is literally possible for these words again, to be bound upon their hands and their foreheads? How are the commands they are supposed to teach their children literally gonna be bound upon their hands and their forehead? Are they gonna tape the commandments to their hands and forehead? Or perhaps, glue the words on their hands and their forehead.
You have no qualifier for claiming the Beast's Mark even resembles any mark of God. Now you try to introduce Deut 11:18 as proof of the Mark Satan will use during Tribulation? That does not work. please stop trying to side-step what I claim and its reasoning.

In no way what so ever have they dis-agreed with God's Law, I thought I was abundantly clear on that. If you are claiming I must test them, you are wrong... they did not tell me who they are... God told me eho they are and I tested that vision and the test was passed. I fail to understand where or why you continue attempting to discredit them.. you are not the one who told me who they are.. God did.

Your slip is showing and that thong is just wrong.

Veteran if the Elle White is the same one here posting as Elle then I understand this all too well and she is dismissed.