Trekson said:
Hi Vet, actually, I've been shown that Zech. 14 is post-mill. Rev. 20:8-9 timing. There is zero reason for the church to brought to Jerusalem. That's the home of Israel while we, the church, abide in heaven.
God's Israel IS... His Church, made up of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, together as one Body in Christ Jesus.
The Zechariah 14 timing is about the "day of the Lord" with Christ's second coming. The latter part of the chapter is Millennium timing, not after... the Milennium. The Living Waters of Ezekiel 47 are to manifest on earth during Christ's Milennium reign with His elect. That REIGN is UPON the earth, which is where that "camp of the saints" of Rev.20 will be.
The "caught up" idea of 1 Thess.4 is about Christ gathering His Church to be with Him. And per the Zech.14 Scripture, Christ is coming BACK to this earth, to Jerusalem. That's where the gathering of His Church will be, and it will occur only at one specific time per God's Word, right after the tribulation He taught in Matt.24 and Mark 13.
terry said:
Bear with me Vet....
Veteran wrote: " It's not a false statement, because there is NO 'rapture' teaching by any seminary school today that rightly aligns with God's Word. You've either got a Pre-Trib Rapture being taught, or a Pre-Wrath Rapture being taught. BOTH do not align with God's Word about the gathering of the saints to Christ when He comes, because both have it as the Church being taken off the earth when Scripture reveals the Church is gathered to Christ coming to Jerusalem, on earth (Zech.14). So WHICH one of those seminary doctrines of 'men' have you accepted Terry?Veteran wrote: " How did you miss thsi Vet? My statemment is inclusive of a " no rapture theory " - just not exclusive to a rapture theory. I told you I could EASILY prove it... and I did. " AFTER Armageddon man's view of the RAPTURE WILL most certainly align with God.. and to use your word... "means" that man will then (not "never" as you said) will definately align with God and do so, correctly. " For IF there is NO Rapture then men's idea would still re-align itself and so align with God;s NO rapture - after Armageddon - when all things are known, but you said NEVER - and so you are wrong ! This demonstrates that you read things the way YOU want and not the way they are ! Which is exactly the trap I am trying to help you get out of.
Sounds like you're terribly confused.
terry said:
Now, Veteran, please do not do as the others and igmore that you understand only to attack from a different angle. Let it be known you now understand what I wrote. Show me here and everyone that you are not going to trap yourself and remain there no matter what. - in an attempt to be right. Comiong forth with your "never" as being in error is the most correct thing you can do.
Like I said, man's ideas of a pre-trib or pre-wrath 'rapture' will NEVER align with the 'harpazo' event written in God's Word. So it's not about the word 'rapture' itself like some here are trying to make it. It's about the events of Christ's coming to gather His Church to Him, to where He will be, and where's He coming to? Back to this earth in like manner how He ascended into Heaven, as per Acts 1. The Zechariah 14 Scripture is the major witness of that second coming.
terry said:
Maybe this would help you more... When I learned of this rapture thing.. I too wondered about it.. and I am NOT done wondering. So I tested the validity of it. In doing so, I considered what would be the NEED for a rapture and so amid the pros and cons of scripture I considered a problem for the Believers unable to defend themsleves against Satan's Mark - in that - I discovered a geniune need for a rapture. In the con side I found no validity for the absence of a rapture... such as the " taken away " separating the chaft from the chaft thing I worte earlier. A 99 year old man with demensia, alheimers, or what ever, but physically in decent health and always believed in Jesus would require an "escape" from the perils of Tribulation to avoid the Beast's Mark... Are you going to attempt to develop another alternative to the rapture to spare him. one that is " better " than a rapture? but why?
And you are still... "wondering" about it, simply because you've chosen to listen to men's doctrines about it instead. I don't wonder about it, because I keep to God's Word about it.
The "caught up" (Greek harpazo) idea is also shown by Paul in 2 Cor.12 about the one that was caught up to the third heaven, to paradise, and lived to tell about it. I believe Paul was speaking of himself since he was once stoned and left for dead. It was his spirit that was "caught up", not his flesh, which is why he said whether in the body or out of the body, he didn't know, but God knew. Likewise with the harpazo event in 1 Thess.4, it won't be our flesh that's caught up to be with Christ, but our spirit in our spiritual body that Paul said will manifest on the "last trump" with Christ's coming. When we are 'changed' to that body we are then... at that point within the heavenly dimension, even while still here on earth. It is in... that kind of body which will allow us to be gathered by Christ to Jerusalem where He returns per Zech.14.
But what are the pre-trib and pre-wrath ideas of man teaching instead? The pre-trib idea teaches that Christ gathers His Church off the earth PRIOR to the tribulation, brings them to Heaven while the wicked are left-behind on earth to go through the tribulation. That idea has a HUGE problem with misalignment with God's Word, simply because the "last trump" change at the "twinkling of an eye" is REQUIRED for the gathering, and that event per Paul doesn't happen until Christ's return to END the tribulation on the "day of the Lord."
The pre-wrath ideas of men today varry from being almost the same as the pre-trib idea, or on the idea that Christ gathers us right after the tribulation, takes us to Heaven, leaving the wicked on earth to suffer God's cup of wrath. Huge problem with that idea of men also compared to God's Word, simply because that cup of wrath is poured out on the SAME day of The LORD when Jesus comes to gather His Church and both the just and unjust on earth at the "last trump" go through Paul's change at the twinkling of an eye.
terry said:
I never ever claimed the word " rapture " was in the Bible, only a description of such an event. To continue to associate the word rapture as not being IN God's Word and so to dismiss it is an ERROR - for " rapture " is just a one word, a description of an event where SOME Christians are spared the Mark of the Beast for reasons God knows. And an event that I remain considering, but am leaning toward as valid.
Since that word 'rapture' is NOT in God's Word, and... men associate doctrines with it that do NOT align with God's Word, then we shouldn't want to push it, because it will only confuse weaker brethren that haven't yet discerned the actual gathering events as written in God's Word.
terry said:
Also, I never said Christ's Church would or would not go through Tribulation. If you are attempting to link me to that.. then you are trying to put words in my mouth that I have not said, and words that I have no intention of claiming.
Your posts of any scripture you believe discounts an event that has been described as a Rapture excludes all the scriptures that point to an event that could be best described AS a rapture. Linking scripture to achieve the desired outcome one wishes is not the way to discover truth. Most people on this forum (and accross the world ) chase scripture in order to link together verses to demonstrate the belief they desire instead of the truth God has given. I gave his that one can understand why they do not see me doing such, instead i chase the wisdom contained in God's Word - or at least try to. So, please do not assume i consider myself beyond correction.... are you?
My tale is still waggin'
The place you have put Christ's coming in your Daniel chart if I recall, suggests you may heed a pre-trib rapture theory. The tribulation is for the latter half of Daniel's final "one week", a 1260 day period. Didn't you place Christ's gathering the Church just prior to that 1260 day period?