Identifying The Eight Kings Of Revelation 17:10

John_8:32 · Dec 11, 2012

1 - Imperial Restoration of the Holy Roman Empire under Justinian 554 AD
2 - Carolingian Empire Charlemagne (crowned) 800 AD
3 - Holy Roman Empire Otto the Great 962 AD
4 - Hapsburg Dynasty Charles V (crowned) 1530 AD
5 - Napolean's Empire 1804 - 1814 AD
6 - Italy and Germany culminationg in the Axis powers 1870 - 1945 AD
7 - the Beast power rising as we speak in Europe.

Five are fallen.
One is...

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

These prophecies could not be understood until the end times and began to be understood at about the time of the Axis powers.

One has not yet come. At the time of the Axis powers the EU was still in the future. It is being pared down to ten horns (ten kings, Rev 17:12) as we speak.

Richard Neal · Dec 11, 2012

John_8:32 said:
1 - Imperial Restoration of the Holy Roman Empire under Justinian 554 AD
2 - Carolingian Empire Charlemagne (crowned) 800 AD
3 - Holy Roman Empire Otto the Great 962 AD
4 - Hapsburg Dynasty Charles V (crowned) 1530 AD
5 - Napolean's Empire 1804 - 1814 AD
6 - Italy and Germany culminationg in the Axis powers 1870 - 1945 AD
7 - the Beast power rising as we speak in Europe.

Five are fallen.
One is...

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

These prophecies could not be understood until the end times and began to be understood at about the time of the Axis powers.

One has not yet come. At the time of the Axis powers the EU was still in the future. It is being pared down to ten horns (ten kings, Rev 17:12) as we speak.

How could one argue that Justinian ruled a Roman Empire from a Byzantine kingdom dominated by Greeks?...What about the Byzantine emperors who preceded Justinian?...You are picking and choosing to fit your pre-conceived assumptions.. Charlemagne, Otto the Great and Charles V ruled over a confederacy of Germanic tribes - some of the same tribes which overthrew the Roman Empire in 410 A.D and neither ever ruled over an empire...Difficult, then, to envision how these kingdoms - not empires - could ever be considered revisions of the Roman Empire (Don't confuse the Holy Roman Empire with the Roman Empire because the two could not be more different). Napoleon ruled over a French Empire - difficult at best to tie a French Empire with the Roman Empire of 1300 years earlier....What about the Hapsburg dynasty, or the Third Reich, what about the British Empire? On and on one could go with European empires/kingdoms if one wants to play this game...Which one awaits the Antichrist, the False prophet, has a capital city in the desert, is a divided empire, has control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, wants to exterminate the Jewish state, which empire or kingdom conquered Babylon and the Persian Empire, etc, etc, etc...Your 4th beast/empire must fulfill ALL the twenty-six unique characteristics Scripture gives us to identify the 4th beast. No European empire or kingdom - not even the Roman Empire of the Byzantine has ever fulfilled the twenty-six unique characteristics Scripture demands of the 4th empire...

Questor · Dec 12, 2012

As far as I am aware of, no one - Christian or otherwise - has ever successfully identified the eight kings of Revelation 17:10. Many have tried, including many of the Early Church Fathers. Because of the dominance of the Imperial Roman Empire in the first century A.D., many of those same Church Fathers tried to find the answer in successive Roman Emperors, usually beginning with the tyrant Nero.

The study of eschatology or end-time prophecy came to an end within the Western Church around the fourth century A.D. when St Augustine determined that it was beyond understanding, and even dangerous. The study of eschatological prophecies was renewed with the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century A.D. The early Reformers, and those that followed them, usually picked up where the Early Church Fathers left off since they were well acquainted with their writings and saw, as a result, various Imperial Roman Emperors as the fulfillment of the prophecy. That there were literally hundreds of Imperial Roman Emperors didn't seem to be enough to deter most interpreters; they simply picked the Emperors who they believed better fit their paradigm, then named those specific emperors as the fulfillment of the prophecy of the eight kings.

Regardless of the sincerity of the various theologians and apologists who have attempted, over the centuries, to interpret the prophecy, sadly, error usually begets error, and by the early nineteenth century A.D. a quasi-Revised Roman Empire had grown out of the attempts to force Imperial Roman Emperors into the fulfillment of the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10. This led directly to other misinterpretations of other eschatological prophecies. The end result, sadly, has been the Church as a whole has been misled and, as a result, "can not see the forrest for the errors." Today the Church, especially in America, looks for an eschatological paradigm where some form of a quasi-Revised Roman Empire (the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7) becomes the vehicle which allows the Antichrist to come to power; usually through the United Nations. Gog, of the land of MaGog is, in many of these same paradigms, is usually the Russians (formerly the atheistic Soviet Union), and in extreme Protestant circles the Roman Catholic Church becomes "Mystery Babylon" of Revelation 17, the heretical religion of the great Beast which is the Kingdom (Empire) of the Antichrist, etc.

Any eschatological paradigm can - and must! - be tested. Just as scientific theories must be tested before they are accepted as truth, eschatological paradigms must also be tested before they are ever accepted as truth. And the way to test any eschatological paradigm is simple - all eschatological prophecies from both the Old and New Testaments must fit into the new paradigm without being forced. For example, one can not attempt to trace the migration of the ancient people known as the Scythians throughout the many centuries, which is virtually impossible since the history of their migrations is incomplete, simply because one believes that the Scythians were the original inhabitants of "The Land of MaGog" and, over the centuries, eventually migrated into Russia. Thus, Russia, of their preconceived beliefs, must be "the Land of Magog."

Moreover, any eschatological paradigm must also solve any of what I like to term 'mysteries' of eschatological prophecies. And again, it must do so in a convincing fashion, not forced as the eight emperors (kings) of the hundreds of Imperial Roman Emperors which where chosen, were chosen simply to be forced into the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10 in order to come up with an answer to the mystery which is the literal fulfillment of the prophecy.

That brings us to the purpose of this article - to correctly answer, for the first time in Church history, the mystery of who the eight kings of Revelation 17:10 are. In my new book, Kingdom of the Antichrist/The Rise of the Beast I go into great detail regarding my new end time paradigm. In doing so the paradigm, as I understand it, easily answers the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10. "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction" Rev. 17:10-11.

The "Five who have fallen" can be none other than the only five Caliphs (kings) the Islamic Empire has ever known since its inception in the sixth century A.D. 1. Muhammad, 2. Abu Bakr, 3. Omar, 4. Umar and 5. Ali.

Because the Islamic Empire, since the death of the last Caliph, Ali, and the ensuring civil war, which is known to history as The War of the Camels, has been a divided empire (Sunni and Shiite), Islam has not known a sixth caliph for nearly fourteen hundred years. Under Islamic tradition, there can not be a sixth caliph until the empire is first reunited.

The sixth Caliph (king), then, is "Gog, of the land of MaGog" (Ezek. 38, 39) who reunites the Islamic Empire (the Fourth Beast/Empire of Daniel 7) in an attempt to annihilate the modern Jewish state of Israel (Ezek. 37).

Gog, and his coalition force (empire) is defeated by God, and Gog dies "on the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:2). This is the "mortal head wound" suffered by the first beast of Revelation 13:3. The "first beast" of Revelation 13 is the Islamic Caliphate, but more on this in a minute. The death of "Gog," "on the mountains of Israel" opens the way for the seventh king (Caliph), known to Scripture as The False Prophet, but known to Islam as al-Mahdi (the Mahdi) of Islamic eschatological anticipations.

al Mahdi of Islamic eschatological anticipations is a forerunner - a sort of John the Baptist to "Jesus, son of Mary" of Islamic eschatological anticipation. (This is not the place to go into a detailed explanation of who, exactly, "Jesus, son of Mary" is in Islamic eschatology, or how they will perceive him. But it is enough here to say that "Jesus, son of Mary" is the Antichrist (Greek anti = imitation of). Thus, as is foretold in the Hadith (Traditions) of Islam, al Mahdi will welcome "Jesus, son of Mary" as Caliph, and even abdicates (must remain for a little while) his power and position to "Jesus, son of Mary." Thus, making "Jesus, son of Mary," who is the Antichrist, the eighth and final king (caliph).

As we alluded to earlier, "The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction" (Rev. 17:11). "He belongs to the seven" simply means that the eighth king (Caliph) belongs to the Caliphate (the seven) which preceded him. This Caliphate, then, is the "beast" "coming out of the sea [of humanity]. He had ten horns [the ten kingdoms of Ezekiel 38 which make up empire/beast Daniel 7] and seven heads {the Caliphate]....Rev 13:1.

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist/The Rise of the Beast

Are you placing the Mahdi then as the Prophet, to pave the way for 'Jesus, Son of Mary', the Islamic idea of Yeshua as 'Prophet, and not YHVH in a tabernacle of flesh?

Richard said ''Richard', on 24 Sept 2012 - 17:40, said:
True, the Jews will never bow to an Islamic Caliph pretending to be God (Jesus Christ). But that fact along does not mean the Antichrist will not be an Islamic Caliph...The Christians will not bow to any Islamic Caliph pretending to be God either; Does this mean the Antichrist can not be a Islamic Caliph? Of course not...You miss, my friend, the whole point about who and what the Antichrist is...You need to study up on Gnosticism, especially their various heretical christological teachings and beliefs. This is the "spirit of antichrist" which John spoke about as being alive and well within the first-century Church. This is the same hydra-headed heresy the Early Church Fathers railed against for over three centuries...It is the Christology of Gnosticism that empowers the Antichrist - because there are, currently, over 1.5 billion Gnostics tonight awaiting the return of the man "Jesus, son of Mary" from Gnostic teachings and anticipations...When you understand this - when you are able to identify the "spirit of antichrist" that has warred against the Church since the first century A.D., then you will be able to easily identify the Antichrist (imitation christ) and his False Prophet...Read my book, Kingdom of the Antichrist, I spend three chapters on the origins, history and beliefs of Gnosticism."

Richard Neal

Who are all these Gnostics you speak of so plentifully, the majority of the current official Church? Or just Islam...or a mix of everyone who just wants to think that Yeshua was a 'good man' and a wise teacher?

Also, why do the seven mountains have to be kingdoms, since in the Middle east there are so two seven hilled cities...Mecca, and Istanbul?

Richard, you mention only the Caliphs over all of the muslim nations...what about Suleiman of the Ottomans? He conquered the Shias, and that ran with the Ottoman empire for some time.

Q

veteran · Dec 12, 2012

Back on topic again.

Identifying all the 8 beast kings of Rev.17 is not what Christ's Message there is about. It's about identifying a specific one within it.

Rev 17:8-11
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

That is about Satan the dragon. He shall ascend out of the bottomless pit in the last days, and it is he that is already assigned to perdition (complete destruction from Greek apollumi). NONE of the beast kings of Daniel, nor any of those of Rome, nor of any past kingdom of history has been assigned to perdition into the "lake of fire" yet. Only Satan and his angels have. So that's how easy our Lord Jesus made that recognition there in that verse, for those who listen to Him. Those who cannot grasp how that can be Satan are those who do that wondering there.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The anchor point of that 10th verse is where John says "and one is", meaning one of the seven kings was existing in his days. The Roman emperor Domitian was that one in John's day, around 90 A.D. So where do we go from here about those other ones and their identity? That's not really the point, because the next phrase is more important with, "and the other is not yet come".

That seventh king was still yet to come during Apostle John's day. Our Lord Jesus gave us a hint there about the coming of that seventh king with, "and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." What "short space"? This one...

Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

Just what is that "short time"? It's the tribulation time, the time of the end. That's why the great tribulation our Lord Jesus mentioned will be a time like never before on this earth, nor will there ever be a time like it again. It's because the devil is coming in person, down out of heaven to this earth to work great deception.

Rev.17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Notice that phrase "And the beast that was, and is not," is pointing back to the Rev.17:8 verse, which is about the one that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition (Satan). This verse says he (Satan) is this eighth king, and is 'of' the seven also.

That's pointing to limited possibilities, either those previous kings are Satan also, or they are under his direct control. It's the latter idea, they are under Satan's control. In the Old Testament prophets God linked the historical flesh kings of Babylon, Egypt with Pharaoh, the prince and king of Tyrus, and the king of Assyria as anti-types for Satan himself. So if one wanted to try to understand who those previous five beast kings were, they would need to closely weigh God's Word on that instead of going outside His Word for many lists by man.

It is not necessary to do that supposition of the previous ones to understand what our Lord Jesus' actual Message is here in Rev.17 about these beast kings. He wants us to notice that the 6th beast king was already manifested in Apostle John's day, and the 7th beast king was still yet to come, and that the 7th and 8th beast kings are directly pointing to Satan himself.

John_8:32 · Dec 12, 2012

How could one argue that Justinian ruled a Roman Empire from a Byzantine kingdom dominated by Greeks?...What about the Byzantine emperors who preceded Justinian?...You are picking and choosing to fit your pre-conceived assumptions.. Charlemagne, Otto the Great and Charles V ruled over a confederacy of Germanic tribes - some of the same tribes which overthrew the Roman Empire in 410 A.D and neither ever ruled over an empire...Difficult, then, to envision how these kingdoms - not empires - could ever be considered revisions of the Roman Empire (Don't confuse the Holy Roman Empire with the Roman Empire because the two could not be more different). Napoleon ruled over a French Empire - difficult at best to tie a French Empire with the Roman Empire of 1300 years earlier....What about the Hapsburg dynasty, or the Third Reich, what about the British Empire? On and on one could go with European empires/kingdoms if one wants to play this game...Which one awaits the Antichrist, the False prophet, has a capital city in the desert, is a divided empire, has control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, wants to exterminate the Jewish state, which empire or kingdom conquered Babylon and the Persian Empire, etc, etc, etc...Your 4th beast/empire must fulfill ALL the twenty-six unique characteristics Scripture gives us to identify the 4th beast. No European empire or kingdom - not even the Roman Empire of the Byzantine has ever fulfilled the twenty-six unique characteristics Scripture demands of the 4th empire...

What you are missing is that each of these were proclaimed the Holy Roman Empire.

Richard Neal · Dec 12, 2012

Questor said:
As far as I am aware of, no one - Christian or otherwise - has ever successfully identified the eight kings of Revelation 17:10. Many have tried, including many of the Early Church Fathers. Because of the dominance of the Imperial Roman Empire in the first century A.D., many of those same Church Fathers tried to find the answer in successive Roman Emperors, usually beginning with the tyrant Nero.

The study of eschatology or end-time prophecy came to an end within the Western Church around the fourth century A.D. when St Augustine determined that it was beyond understanding, and even dangerous. The study of eschatological prophecies was renewed with the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century A.D. The early Reformers, and those that followed them, usually picked up where the Early Church Fathers left off since they were well acquainted with their writings and saw, as a result, various Imperial Roman Emperors as the fulfillment of the prophecy. That there were literally hundreds of Imperial Roman Emperors didn't seem to be enough to deter most interpreters; they simply picked the Emperors who they believed better fit their paradigm, then named those specific emperors as the fulfillment of the prophecy of the eight kings.

Regardless of the sincerity of the various theologians and apologists who have attempted, over the centuries, to interpret the prophecy, sadly, error usually begets error, and by the early nineteenth century A.D. a quasi-Revised Roman Empire had grown out of the attempts to force Imperial Roman Emperors into the fulfillment of the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10. This led directly to other misinterpretations of other eschatological prophecies. The end result, sadly, has been the Church as a whole has been misled and, as a result, "can not see the forrest for the errors." Today the Church, especially in America, looks for an eschatological paradigm where some form of a quasi-Revised Roman Empire (the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7) becomes the vehicle which allows the Antichrist to come to power; usually through the United Nations. Gog, of the land of MaGog is, in many of these same paradigms, is usually the Russians (formerly the atheistic Soviet Union), and in extreme Protestant circles the Roman Catholic Church becomes "Mystery Babylon" of Revelation 17, the heretical religion of the great Beast which is the Kingdom (Empire) of the Antichrist, etc.

Any eschatological paradigm can - and must! - be tested. Just as scientific theories must be tested before they are accepted as truth, eschatological paradigms must also be tested before they are ever accepted as truth. And the way to test any eschatological paradigm is simple - all eschatological prophecies from both the Old and New Testaments must fit into the new paradigm without being forced. For example, one can not attempt to trace the migration of the ancient people known as the Scythians throughout the many centuries, which is virtually impossible since the history of their migrations is incomplete, simply because one believes that the Scythians were the original inhabitants of "The Land of MaGog" and, over the centuries, eventually migrated into Russia. Thus, Russia, of their preconceived beliefs, must be "the Land of Magog."

Moreover, any eschatological paradigm must also solve any of what I like to term 'mysteries' of eschatological prophecies. And again, it must do so in a convincing fashion, not forced as the eight emperors (kings) of the hundreds of Imperial Roman Emperors which where chosen, were chosen simply to be forced into the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10 in order to come up with an answer to the mystery which is the literal fulfillment of the prophecy.

That brings us to the purpose of this article - to correctly answer, for the first time in Church history, the mystery of who the eight kings of Revelation 17:10 are. In my new book, Kingdom of the Antichrist/The Rise of the Beast I go into great detail regarding my new end time paradigm. In doing so the paradigm, as I understand it, easily answers the prophecy which is Revelation 17:10. "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction" Rev. 17:10-11.

The "Five who have fallen" can be none other than the only five Caliphs (kings) the Islamic Empire has ever known since its inception in the sixth century A.D. 1. Muhammad, 2. Abu Bakr, 3. Omar, 4. Umar and 5. Ali.

Because the Islamic Empire, since the death of the last Caliph, Ali, and the ensuring civil war, which is known to history as The War of the Camels, has been a divided empire (Sunni and Shiite), Islam has not known a sixth caliph for nearly fourteen hundred years. Under Islamic tradition, there can not be a sixth caliph until the empire is first reunited.

The sixth Caliph (king), then, is "Gog, of the land of MaGog" (Ezek. 38, 39) who reunites the Islamic Empire (the Fourth Beast/Empire of Daniel 7) in an attempt to annihilate the modern Jewish state of Israel (Ezek. 37).

Gog, and his coalition force (empire) is defeated by God, and Gog dies "on the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:2). This is the "mortal head wound" suffered by the first beast of Revelation 13:3. The "first beast" of Revelation 13 is the Islamic Caliphate, but more on this in a minute. The death of "Gog," "on the mountains of Israel" opens the way for the seventh king (Caliph), known to Scripture as The False Prophet, but known to Islam as al-Mahdi (the Mahdi) of Islamic eschatological anticipations.

al Mahdi of Islamic eschatological anticipations is a forerunner - a sort of John the Baptist to "Jesus, son of Mary" of Islamic eschatological anticipation. (This is not the place to go into a detailed explanation of who, exactly, "Jesus, son of Mary" is in Islamic eschatology, or how they will perceive him. But it is enough here to say that "Jesus, son of Mary" is the Antichrist (Greek anti = imitation of). Thus, as is foretold in the Hadith (Traditions) of Islam, al Mahdi will welcome "Jesus, son of Mary" as Caliph, and even abdicates (must remain for a little while) his power and position to "Jesus, son of Mary." Thus, making "Jesus, son of Mary," who is the Antichrist, the eighth and final king (caliph).

As we alluded to earlier, "The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction" (Rev. 17:11). "He belongs to the seven" simply means that the eighth king (Caliph) belongs to the Caliphate (the seven) which preceded him. This Caliphate, then, is the "beast" "coming out of the sea [of humanity]. He had ten horns [the ten kingdoms of Ezekiel 38 which make up empire/beast Daniel 7] and seven heads {the Caliphate]....Rev 13:1.

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist/The Rise of the Beast

Are you placing the Mahdi then as the Prophet, to pave the way for 'Jesus, Son of Mary', the Islamic idea of Yeshua as 'Prophet, and not YHVH in a tabernacle of flesh?

Richard said ''Richard', on 24 Sept 2012 - 17:40, said:
True, the Jews will never bow to an Islamic Caliph pretending to be God (Jesus Christ). But that fact along does not mean the Antichrist will not be an Islamic Caliph...The Christians will not bow to any Islamic Caliph pretending to be God either; Does this mean the Antichrist can not be a Islamic Caliph? Of course not...You miss, my friend, the whole point about who and what the Antichrist is...You need to study up on Gnosticism, especially their various heretical christological teachings and beliefs. This is the "spirit of antichrist" which John spoke about as being alive and well within the first-century Church. This is the same hydra-headed heresy the Early Church Fathers railed against for over three centuries...It is the Christology of Gnosticism that empowers the Antichrist - because there are, currently, over 1.5 billion Gnostics tonight awaiting the return of the man "Jesus, son of Mary" from Gnostic teachings and anticipations...When you understand this - when you are able to identify the "spirit of antichrist" that has warred against the Church since the first century A.D., then you will be able to easily identify the Antichrist (imitation christ) and his False Prophet...Read my book, Kingdom of the Antichrist, I spend three chapters on the origins, history and beliefs of Gnosticism."

Richard Neal

Who are all these Gnostics you speak of so plentifully, the majority of the current official Church? Or just Islam...or a mix of everyone who just wants to think that Yeshua was a 'good man' and a wise teacher?

Also, why do the seven mountains have to be kingdoms, since in the Middle east there are so two seven hilled cities...Mecca, and Istanbul?

Richard, you mention only the Caliphs over all of the muslim nations...what about Suleiman of the Ottomans? He conquered the Shias, and that ran with the Ottoman empire for some time.

Q

Click to expand...

Gnostics are various heretical schools of thought usually lead by a charismatic "super apostle" as the Apostle Paul sarcastically referred to them...Gnostics have been with us since the apostolic age, and one can not understand large segments of the New Testament, especially Paul's writings, John's gospel and his epistles, if one does not possess at least a basic understanding of Gnosticism, its origins, history and beliefs...And one will surely never be able to understand and properly interpret eschatology without understanding Gnosticism since the most dominate form of Gnosticism - Islam - plays such a vital role in eschatological events...There are many books on Gnosticism, but may I recommend my new book, Kingdom of the Antichrist/Rise of the Beast (www.KingdomOfTheAntichrist.com) as once source. In it, because Gnosticism is so vital to eschatological events, I break down the origins, history and beliefs of all the various Gnostic sects...

Seven mountains MUST be seven kingdoms because that is what John tells us they are - the "seven mountains" represent "the multitudes, nations and languages" that will make up the 4th empire/beast (Rev 13:1, 17:15) while they also represent the seven kings that will rule over this empire from its inception to the Second Coming (Rev 17:10). These same seven kings are also called the second "beast" of Revelation 13:2, 17:8, 17:12).

There were many sultans or Islamic strong men throughout Islamic history who have claimed to be caliph; But claiming to be caliph, even if you have the military to back your claim up, does not make one caliph...According to Islamic traditions (Hadith), which are as important to the muslim as the traditions of the rabbis (Mishnah) is to the Jews, one can only be caliph if he rules over a united Islamic Empire. There were five original caliphs: Muhammad, Abu Bakr, Uthman, Othman and Ali. All five were assassinated, but when Ali, the fifth caliph, was assassinated the Islamic Empire broke out into a civil war. There was no clear cut winner from this civil war so the Islamic Empire broke into two sects - the Sunni and Shiite which it remains in today. For one to be considered caliph, then, he must unite these two sects - and thus the empire - back into one religion, one empire....That is why both sects await the coming of the Mahdi (the False Prophet), an eschatological figure who Islam anticipates will reunite the empire. He will then be followed by a second eschatological figure - Jesus, son of Mary (the Antichrist).

John_8:32 said:
What you are missing is that each of these were proclaimed the Holy Roman Empire.

The Holy Roman Empire was a mere invention of the Pope in an attempt to muster armed forces against various Islamic invaders and the Roman/Byzantine Emperor and the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch. The Holy Roman Empire was never an "empire" in the since that it was only a confederation of kingdoms who would fight, in times of need, under one banner or king, and do so for the Pope. Moreover, the Holy Roman Empire was, at its essence, Christian, controlled by the Pope and never had lands outside of Europe. One could not, then, argue that a Christian confederation of kingdoms, even though it was in Europe, could be a revised Roman Empire anymore than one could argue that the Nazi's of Germany were a revised Roman Empire simply because they too controlled various kingdoms throughout Europe...

Saint · Dec 12, 2012

The only way that Islam is not the fulfillment of the prophecies would be for Yeshua to delay His coming for at least 50 years; it would take that long for another opposing religious power to come into being. However given the fact that Islam or a companion thereof has always been the dark strength against the Hebrews I have a very difficult seeing any other opposing force developing.

Rome was never an opposing religious force against the Israelite it was always a secular kingship contrasting power and the prophesied evil in the world in the finial days is a spiritual power against Yahweh Himself; it is a dark power that opposes His righteous.

The eight kings of Revelations are either the beast kingdoms that have been in power down thought the ages (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, etc) or they are the Caliphates of Islam that have occurred in the later years. It’s also possible that they are interrelated because the same dark spiritual force lives in both.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

I should add that in either case the eighth and finial kingdom without doubt will be the last Islamic Caliphate which is in the process of forming in the Middle East today.

veteran · Dec 19, 2012

Saint said:
The only way that Islam is not the fulfillment of the prophecies would be for Yeshua to delay His coming for at least 50 years; it would take that long for another opposing religious power to come into being. However given the fact that Islam or a companion thereof has always been the dark strength against the Hebrews I have a very difficult seeing any other opposing force developing.

Rome was never an opposing religious force against the Israelite it was always a secular kingship contrasting power and the prophesied evil in the world in the finial days is a spiritual power against Yahweh Himself; it is a dark power that opposes His righteous.

The eight kings of Revelations are either the beast kingdoms that have been in power down thought the ages (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, etc) or they are the Caliphates of Islam that have occurred in the later years. It’s also possible that they are interrelated because the same dark spiritual force lives in both.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

I should add that in either case the eighth and finial kingdom without doubt will be the last Islamic Caliphate which is in the process of forming in the Middle East today.

It should be easy to grasp that the one John said with "one is" in his days was about a pagan Roman emperor. That gives more weight to the previous beast kings being those of pagan nations before like you said.

Question: what peoples were the MAIN enemies of Israel per the Old Testament histories?

Ishmael? Esau - Edom? Moab? etc.?

NO. The worst enemies of Israel per history were the "workers of iniquity" that kept Israel falling away from God into Baal idol worship, i.e., those of Satan's host that crept in unaware among Israel to destroy WITHIN.

That's why an outward focus of Israel's historical enemies like the peoples of Ishmael and Esau is a somewhat narrow focus, especially since God foretold Israel early on about the enemy that crept in among them to destroy from 'within' Israel (Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9; Ezra 2; Jude 1; 1 Chron.2:55, etc.).

That's still today... the main enemies of the people of Israel and those in Christ Jesus. They worked hidden in secret throughout Old Testament history, and they are still doing that today, which is why so many cannot see exactly what people the majority of the problems on earth today are originating from.

Guestman · Dec 19, 2012

In describing Babylon the Great as a "harlot", this "woman" is seen riding on a "scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names" (Rev 17:3), which "wild beast that you (the apostle John) saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction."(Rev 17:8)

This "scarlet-colored wild beast" causes admiration among "those who dwell on the earth." Those who give admiration to this "wild beast", their "names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world."(Rev 17:8b) Thence, those who support this "scarlet-colored wild beast" without altering, are barred from life.

First, lets establish who Babylon the Great is. Looking closely at ancient Babylon gives clues, for ancient Babylon is Babylon the Great's prototype. At Jeremiah 50, our Creator, Jehovah God describes ancient Babylon as "a land of graven images".(Jer 50:38; 51:47, 52)

And at Ezekiel 21, king Nebuchadnezzar is standing still "at the crossways" in about 609 B.C.E., deciding whether to attack Rabbah or Jerusalem, "in order to resort to divination. He has shaken the arrows. He has asked by of the teraphim; he has looked into the liver."(Ez 21:21)

Thus, ancient Babylon was extremely religious, making no decisions without consulting their gods through divination. Hence, Babylon the Great is an image of ancient Babylon, being a world-wide false religious empire, that has under its wings from Christendom to the religions of the middle and far east to having all religions with the exception of the one true religion that honors our Creator, Jehovah God.

She is seen riding the "eighth king", which "springs from the seven (kings)". Who are the "seven kings" that the "eighth king" derives its power and authority from, that cannot function of itself but must receive "power" from them ? This "eight king" is seen as disappearing as if dead, then reappearing later.

Being as the book of Revelation is from the "Lord's day" forward (Rev 1:10), that began in 1914 with Jesus being installed as king of God's kingdom, then this "eighth king" comes into existence after this. And being that it is a political arrangement that gains notoriety world wide, and that "springs from the seven (kings)", and that disappears from the world scene as in the "abyss", only to reappear later, then what political organization could this be ?

In 1920, both the United States and Britain caused the League of Nations to come into existence, with president Woodrow Wilson and prime minister David Lloyd George giving their backing to it. This is seen at Revelation 13, whereby these two governments are seen as combining their efforts as the 'seventh king', the Ango-American dual world power, in order "give breath (or life) to the image of the wild beast."(Rev 13:15)

However, this "scarlet-colored wild beast" or "eighth king" suffered a deathblow in 1939, and went off into "the abyss" or state of total inactivity. Yet, even before World War II ended, it reappeared, not as the League of Nations, but now as the United Nations. Delegates from 50 nations signed the United Nations Charter in San Francisco (CA) on June 26, 1945.

At Revelation 17:10, it says that the "seven heads" of the "wild beast" at Revelation 13:1, 2, "mean seven mountains (Greek oros, not bounos meaning "hills") where the woman sits on top." Verse 11 says that "there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while."

Who are the six "kings" that preceded the Anglo-American world power ? (1) Egypt, (2) Assyria, (3) ancient Babylon, (4) Medo-Persia, (5) Greece, and (6) Rome. These are all depicted as in opposition to God's "holy ones", his covenant people, first the Jewish nation of natural Israel, then the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) or spiritual nation that replaced the nation of natural Israel as Jehovah's people.(Matt 21:43)

The Bible mentions seven world powers that have had a direct impact upon God's people, with Egypt being the first to do so.(Ex 1:1-13) Later, Assyria in the 8th century B.C.E., came up against Jerusalem.(Isa 36:1) This was followed by ancient Babylon who took captive the land of Judah in 607 B.C.E.(Jer 39; 2 Chron 36:17)

After the downfall of ancient Babylon by Medo-Persia in 539 B.C.E. the Israelites came under their rulership. Next was Greece, who under the rulership of Alexander the Great, defeated Medo-Persia in 331 B.C.E. and the 6th "king" was Rome when the last of the "four kingdoms" (Dan 8:22)-- the Ptolemic dynasty ruling Egypt -- that came forth from Alexander's rulership finally fell to Rome in 30 B.C.E. amd who impaled Jesus.(Matt 27:35) And finally, the ' seventh king' that came forth from the dissolution of the Roman Empire and "arrived" during the "Lord's day" is Britain-America.

veteran · Dec 22, 2012

There it is, the very teachings of the crept in "tares" within the people of Israel, claiming to be of Israel while condemning the people of Israel in the same stroke!

revturmoil · Dec 22, 2012

veteran said:
It should be easy to grasp that the one John said with "one is" in his days was about a pagan Roman emperor. That gives more weight to the previous beast kings being those of pagan nations before like you said.

Question: what peoples were the MAIN enemies of Israel per the Old Testament histories?

Ishmael? Esau - Edom? Moab? etc.?

NO. The worst enemies of Israel per history were the "workers of iniquity" that kept Israel falling away from God into Baal idol worship, i.e., those of Satan's host that crept in unaware among Israel to destroy WITHIN.

That's why an outward focus of Israel's historical enemies like the peoples of Ishmael and Esau is a somewhat narrow focus, especially since God foretold Israel early on about the enemy that crept in among them to destroy from 'within' Israel (Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9; Ezra 2; Jude 1; 1 Chron.2:55, etc.).

That's still today... the main enemies of the people of Israel and those in Christ Jesus. They worked hidden in secret throughout Old Testament history, and they are still doing that today, which is why so many cannot see exactly what people the majority of the problems on earth today are originating from.

You would be hard pressed telling Israelites today that their main enemy is Christians whlie they are surrounded by the many tribes and clans of Ishmael's offspring who want to see their name no more in remembrance and when every nation mentioned in bible prophecy that wants to destroy them is an Islamic country.

Who are the six "kings" that preceded the Anglo-American world power ? (1) Egypt, (2) Assyria, (3) ancient Babylon, (4) Medo-Persia, (5) Greece, and (6) Rome. These are all depicted as in opposition to God's "holy ones", his covenant people, first the Jewish nation of natural Israel, then the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) or spiritual nation that replaced the nation of natural Israel as Jehovah's people.(Matt 21:43)

My question is...

"What makes people think that this beast with 7 heads and 10 horns represents a succession of past world empires?" The passage say's, "
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

How can past empires, "receive no kingdom as yet?" How can past empires "receive power as kings one hour with the beast?
How can the kings of past empires "have one mind, and give their power and strength unto the beast?"

My belief is that these kingdoms/kings are falling as we speak by the apostasy currently taking place in the Arab world. Some that have possibly fallen are Saddam (Iraq), Ben Ali (Tunisia), Mubarak (Egypt), Gaddafi (Lybia), Ali Abdullah Saleh (Yemen). (bin Laden?) There may be others that have fallen. Assad is about to fall. The man of sin will arrive after the apostasy creates a large enough political void to politically unite the region as well as the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam.
Did you know Mecca has 10 spires (horns) and 7 entrances?
I see John's vision of the ten horned seven headed beast occupied by the harlot (Islam) as a complete end-time entity or ten nation empire dominated by Islam and NOT A PROGRESSION OF WORLD EMPIRES.

Saint · Dec 22, 2012

"What makes people think that this beast with 7 heads and 10 horns represents a succession of past world empires?"

Maybe Kaoticprofit it is because the same land area that are currently controlled by Islam and which surrounds Israel seems to have always been controlled by evil spirit princes; at least we know some of them were as exampled by Persia and Greece. I happen to think that all of the Islamic areas are controlled by evil spirit princes; servants of Satan. These areas have always worshiped pagan gods related to Satan. These are the active characters of biblical history.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

veteran · Dec 23, 2012

kaoticprofit said:
You would be hard pressed telling Israelites today that their main enemy is Christians whlie they are surrounded by the many tribes and clans of Ishmael's offspring who want to see their name no more in remembrance and when every nation mentioned in bible prophecy that wants to destroy them is an Islamic country.

You never read me saying that Israel's main enemy are Christians. That reveals just how twisted your mind is away from God's Truth. God's True Israel ARE... CHRISTIANS. All others are 'cut off' unless they repent and believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

kaoticprofit said:
My question is...

"What makes people think that this beast with 7 heads and 10 horns represents a succession of past world empires?" The passage say's, "
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

How can past empires, "receive no kingdom as yet?" How can past empires "receive power as kings one hour with the beast?
How can the kings of past empires "have one mind, and give their power and strength unto the beast?"

It's simple. When John said "five are fallen" that means PAST. And when he said "and one is", that means in his days. But it appears you can't even read simple English how it's written there! And your refusal to do so reveals you've got an agenda to push, which should be a major warning to other brethren here.

revturmoil · Dec 24, 2012

veteran said:
You never read me saying that Israel's main enemy are Christians. That reveals just how twisted your mind is away from God's Truth. God's True Israel ARE... CHRISTIANS. All others are 'cut off' unless they repent and believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

It's simple. When John said "five are fallen" that means PAST. And when he said "and one is", that means in his days. But it appears you can't even read simple English how it's written there! And your refusal to do so reveals you've got an agenda to push, which should be a major warning to other brethren here.

Maybe you should take a better look at this. It doesn't say 5 have fallen. It's says 5 are fallen. This is like the word 'before' in Daniel 7 where you say it means historically before when the word actually means in front of or in the presence of. Retrobyter will always come to your rescue and complicate things after I show you how simple this interpretations really is if you look at it as a complete end-time entity. John had a choice of 17 words for 'are' and he chose the word 'eisi', a third person plural present indicative. You haven't tried to answer any of my questions at all. All you did was warn other believers about me and my twisted mind. I like it though. The prophets of Israel were looked upon in the same way by their own people because they were always the bearer of bad news.
Ibrahim's last warning to America was, "brace yourselves."

Let me ask them a little different.

IF IT IS SO as you say that the beast is a picture of past and historical empires culminating into the final end-time empire.

HOW CAN ancient Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece or Rome etc. or any past empires, "receive no kingdom as yet?" How can past empires "receive power as kings one hour with the beast?
How can the kings of past empires "have one mind, and give their power and strength unto the beast?"
The word 'eisi' OR 'are' comes from a root word that is a third person plural present indicative.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1526&t=KJV

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

There (currently) are seven kings and five have fallen out of power, Saddam (Iraq), Ben Ali (Tunisia), Mubarak (Egypt), Gaddafi (Lybia), Ali Abdullah Saleh (Yemen). (bin Laden?) and one is (remains) (ASSAD) The other is not yet come (SADDAM!) I keep telling you we didn't get the right SADDAM!

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,(Arab/Islamic nations) which have received no kingdom (caliphate) as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.(a short time) 13 These have one mind, (the Islamic mind) and shall give their power and strength (support) unto the beast.

It's not really that difficult to see that this could be the case and I have canned the idea that this vision is a progression of world empires.

veteran · Dec 26, 2012

kaoticprofit said:
Maybe you should take a better look at this. It doesn't say 5 have fallen. It's says 5 are fallen. This is like the word 'before' in Daniel 7 where you say it means historically before when the word actually means in front of or in the presence of. Retrobyter will always come to your rescue and complicate things after I show you how simple this interpretations really is if you look at it as a complete end-time entity. John had a choice of 17 words for 'are' and he chose the word 'eisi', a third person plural present indicative. You haven't tried to answer any of my questions at all. All you did was warn other believers about me and my twisted mind. I like it though. The prophets of Israel were looked upon in the same way by their own people because they were always the bearer of bad news.
Ibrahim's last warning to America was, "brace yourselves."

Per the Greek it actually says five 'fell' (pipto as KJV "are fallen"). It is used in past tense. No reason to change the translators rendering. NIV has it as "have fallen", and that's from a different set of Greek manuscripts than for the KJV NT. In the majority of KJV cases it is rendered as 'fallen', 'fell', 'faileth', etc. No need for all the haggling you're trying to make about it.

kaoticprofit said:
Let me ask them a little different.

IF IT IS SO as you say that the beast is a picture of past and historical empires culminating into the final end-time empire.

HOW CAN ancient Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece or Rome etc. or any past empires, "receive no kingdom as yet?" How can past empires "receive power as kings one hour with the beast?
How can the kings of past empires "have one mind, and give their power and strength unto the beast?"
The word 'eisi' OR 'are' comes from a root word that is a third person plural present indicative.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1526&t=KJV

The answer is simple. It's because the "ten horns" (ten kings) of Rev.17:12-13 are a DIFFERENT subject than those 7 kings of Rev.17:10.

The Daniel layout is the same. It speaks of ten kings as the ten horns, and then it mentions a "little horn" that comes up among the ten (Dan.7:8). Got the very same layout there in Rev.17:10-14. How? The main subject of the Rev.17:10-11 verses are about the "little horn" of Daniel. The Rev.17:12-13 subject is specifically about the ten horns (ten kings).

It's easy to understand this, simply because the ten kings of verse 12-13 are given in CONTRAST to the beast king that's to come. ELEVEN kings in total are being covered there as the main alignment for the very end. You're not rightly dividing the Scripture there about that.

revturmoil · Dec 26, 2012

Veteran said,

It is used in past tense. No reason to change the translators rendering

Sorry Vet but THE WORD USED IN THE TEXT ISN'T 'HAVE' AND IT'S NOT PAST TENSE. It's 'are.'

It doesn't matter what word the NIV uses because that's what's misleading you. I don't use it often in my studies. The big thing is...the word IS NOT PAST TENSE!
God spoke to John in the language he spoke, understood, and the one he wrote in which is Greek.

Rev 17:10

And 2532 there are 1526 seven 2033 kings 935: five 4002 are fallen 4098 , and 2532 one 1520 is 2076 , [and] the other 243 is 2064 0 not yet 3768 come 2064 ; and 2532 when 3752 he cometh 2064 , he 846 must 1163 continue 3306 a short space 3641.

It's the word 'EISI' or 'ARE' which is Strong's #1526 which is a third person plural present indicative of εἰμί (G1510) which is the root word EIMI, which is a first person present indicative which means, to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1526&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1510&t=KJV
The most common word for have is echo and it's a verb meaning to possess.

Saint · Dec 26, 2012

And there are seven kings, the five did fall, and the one is, the other did not yet come, and when he may come, it behoveth him to remain a little time; and the beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth, and out of the seven he is, and to destruction he doth go away.
(Rev 17:10-11 YLT)

Five did fall:

Egyptian Empire
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Persian Empire
Greek Empire

One is:

Rome

One is Yet to come:

Ottoman Empire

The beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth:

Revised Islamic Caliphate who is lead by the Beast!

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

veteran · Dec 26, 2012

kaoticprofit said:
Veteran said,

Sorry Vet but THE WORD USED IN THE TEXT ISN'T 'HAVE' AND IT'S NOT PAST TENSE. It's 'are.'

The KJV phrase "are fallen" in Rev.17:10 is the single Greek word pipto which means 'to fall' (Strong's no. 4098). So your argument about 'are' is moot.

kaoticprofit said:
It doesn't matter what word the NIV uses because that's what's misleading you. I don't use it often in my studies. The big thing is...the word IS NOT PAST TENSE!
God spoke to John in the language he spoke, understood, and the one he wrote in which is Greek.

Rev 17:10

And 2532 there are 1526 seven 2033 kings 935: five 4002 are fallen 4098 , and 2532 one 1520 is 2076 , [and] the other 243 is 2064 0 not yet 3768 come 2064 ; and 2532 when 3752 he cometh 2064 , he 846 must 1163 continue 3306 a short space 3641.

It's the word 'EISI' or 'ARE' which is Strong's #1526 which is a third person plural present indicative of εἰμί (G1510) which is the root word EIMI, which is a first person present indicative which means, to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1526&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1510&t=KJV
The most common word for have is echo and it's a verb meaning to possess.

Why don't you move down that verse to the phrase in question "ARE FALLEN" (1048) instead being blinded with that first 'are' phrase.

Rev 17:10
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
(KJV)

It's the phrases above in bold that I covered in my previous post that reveals John was speaking of five PAST existing historical kings. You are still... failing to READ that.

revturmoil · Dec 27, 2012

It never matters to you anyway. The word 'are' is a plural present indicative. I'm not concerned with the word fallen so much as the word 'are.' 'Are' isn't before the word fallen in the original text or interlinear anyway. (I can re-check) It's put there for our understanding in English. So the verse should read, And are seven kings: five fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And you still haven't answered these questions.

HOW CAN ancient Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece or Rome etc. or any past empires, "receive no kingdom as yet?" How can past empires "receive power as kings one hour with the beast?
How can the kings of past empires "have one mind, and give their power and strength unto the beast?"

The word 'EISI' or 'ARE' is Strong's #1526 is a third person plural present indicative of εἰμί (G1510) which is the root word EIMI, which is a first person present indicative which means, to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.

I use to believe what you do. But I repented!
You can't even accept what the word before means in Daniel 7. And that ones a no brainer. So I don't expect you to believe what the word are means in Rev. 17.
Do you ever change your mind about anything? If you had a sensible hermeneutic you would just accept this. But you don't!
And just you know. Here is the link with all 17 of the words John could have used for the word 'are.' I can only find 3 that are a present indicative just like 'eisi' is in the text of Rev. 17. But what does that matter to you?

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=are

veteran · Dec 27, 2012

kaoticprofit said:
It never matters to you anyway. The word 'are' is a plural present indicative. I'm not concerned with the word fallen so much as the word 'are' which isn't in the interlinear anyway. ( I can re-check) So the verse should read, And there are seven kings: five fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And you still haven't answered these questions.

HOW CAN ancient Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece or Rome etc. or any past empires, "receive no kingdom as yet?" How can past empires "receive power as kings one hour with the beast?
How can the kings of past empires "have one mind, and give their power and strength unto the beast?"

The word 'EISI' or 'ARE' is Strong's #1526 is a third person plural present indicative of εἰμί (G1510) which is the root word EIMI, which is a first person present indicative which means, to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.

I use to believe what you do. But I repented!
You can't even accept what the word before means in Daniel 7. And that ones a no brainer. So I don't expect you to believe what the word are means in Rev. 17.
Do you ever change your mind about anything? If you had a sensible hermeneutic you would just accept this. But you don't!

I've already told you hard-head.

The phrase in question is the "are fallen" phrase which is the single Greek word 'pipto' in the NT manuscripts! The KJV English is simple enough, five are fallen (past), and one IS, according to that Rev.17:10 verse. But you're trying to add a bunch of junk ideas into that which does not belong!

Moreover, you fail to rightly divide that subject of 8 kings of Rev.17:10-11 from the subject of ten OTHER kings in the Rev.17:12-13 verses, which is why you're not even asking the right question to begin with!

Identifying The Eight Kings Of Revelation 17:10

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