Identifying The Eight Kings Of Revelation 17:10

Oh stop it you num skull! That's what Larry on the stooges would call you anyway! The word pipto is one word, the word fallen. I'm dealing with the word 'ARE'!
The word are isn't in the original text before the word fallen. It's put there for our understanding in English.

Here's the link for the interlinear http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev17.pdf

The horns and the heads are all incorporated into one beast which is a complete end-time entity.

The kings in verse 10 are the ones that are fallen. The kings in verse 12 are the ones who will replace the 'fallen' ones. Get it? The word 'are' used in verse 12 is also the same word 'eisi' which again is a plural present indicative. All these kings are all end-time players.
I made a mistake the way I asked the question.

So how can the ten kings that will replace the fallen ones, which are not past empires but recently fallen kings, HOW CAN they receive no kingdom as yet?" How can past empires "receive power as kings one hour with the beast?
How can the kings of past empires "have one mind, and give their power and strength unto the beast?"
But maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that the kings in verse 10 are past empires and the kings in verse 12 are not?

veteran said:

But it appears you can't even read simple English how it's written there!

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kaoticprofit said:

It never matters to you anyway.

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veteran said:

I've already told you hard-head.

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kaoticprofit said:

Oh stop it you num shull! That's what Larry on the stooges would call you anyway!

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Leave out the "are" the context of the verse remains the same; five king (kingdoms) have fallen

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen , and one is , and the other is not yet come ; and when he cometh , he must continue a short space.
oiJ {T-NPM} pevnte {N-NUI} e~pesan, {V-2AAI-3P} oJ {T-NSM} eiJ'? {N-NSM} e~stin, {V-PXI-3S} oJ {T-NSM} a~llo? {A-NSM} ou~pw {ADV} h\lqen, {V-2AAI-3S} kai; {CONJ} o&tan {CONJ} e~lqh/ {V-2AAS-3S} ojlivgon {A-ASN} aujto;n {P-ASM} dei' {V-PQI-3S} mei'nai. {V-AAN}


10 And are seven kings: five fallen , and one is , other is yet come ; and when cometh , he must continue space.

I'm not on either side of this but we should understand the word literally.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Veteran,
I associate the empires of the fallen kings of verse 10 as the same empires of verse 12 where the 10 kings "have received no kingdom as yet;" but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Different kings, same empires.
Sorry if I misled you. You seem to do a pretty good job of that on your own!

kaoticprofit said:

Veteran,
I associate the empires of the fallen kings of verse 10 as the same empires of verse 12 where the 10 kings "have received no kingdom as yet;" but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Different kings, same empires.
Sorry if I misled you. You seem to do a pretty good job of that on your own!

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The 8 kings described in Rev.17:10-11 is a DIFFERENT SUBJECT than the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13.

The reason the 10 kings don't receive a kingdom as yet is because that won't happen until that singular beast king of Rev.17:10-11 arrives on the scene, i.e., tribulation timing. And when he does come, they receive power with him for "one hour". That one hour idea is about an expression for the tribulation time, the short time that the dragon (beast king) knows he has left per Rev.12. This is the very same matter Daniel was given to speak about...

Dan 7:20-22
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(KJV)

Dan.7:20 = the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13 ruling with the final beast king for "one hour". Also per Dan.7:24 the beast king ("little horn") will subdue (abase) 3 of the 10 kings. That does not mean he conquers or destroys those 3. I believe it points to a reorganization of his ruling structure, like a pyramid of power, the little horn at the top of the pyramid, the 3 kings below next, and the other 7 kings below the 3. All the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13 are to exist concurrent with the beast king of Rev.17:10-11.

Dan.7:21 = tribulation timing, the event of Rev.13:7

Dan.7:22 = Christ's second coming

veteran said:

The 8 kings described in Rev.17:10-11 is a DIFFERENT SUBJECT than the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13.

The reason the 10 kings don't receive a kingdom as yet is because that won't happen until that singular beast king of Rev.17:10-11 arrives on the scene, i.e., tribulation timing. And when he does come, they receive power with him for "one hour". That one hour idea is about an expression for the tribulation time, the short time that the dragon (beast king) knows he has left per Rev.12. This is the very same matter Daniel was given to speak about...

Dan 7:20-22
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(KJV)

Dan.7:20 = the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13 ruling with the final beast king for "one hour". Also per Dan.7:24 the beast king ("little horn") will subdue (abase) 3 of the 10 kings. That does not mean he conquers or destroys those 3. I believe it points to a reorganization of his ruling structure, like a pyramid of power, the little horn at the top of the pyramid, the 3 kings below next, and the other 7 kings below the 3. All the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13 are to exist concurrent with the beast king of Rev.17:10-11.

Dan.7:21 = tribulation timing, the event of Rev.13:7

Dan.7:22 = Christ's second coming

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The Bible unlocks itself, in which Scripture interprets Scripture. For example, at Daniel 7, there is seen a succession of world powers starting with the one then in existence, ancient Babylon. Babylon was followed by Medo-Persia in 539 B.C.E., then Medo-Persia by Greece in 331 B.C.E., and lastly Greece by Rome in 30 B.C.E. with it having "ten horns".(Dan 7:2-7)

Each of these world powers had a direct impact upon God's people, at the time, the nation of Israel, but later upon the "Israel of God".(Gal 6:16) But there was another one, noted as a "small horn" that speaks "grandiose things" (Dan 7:8, 20) that eventually became the last world power of human history, the Anglo-American dual world power.

There have been many world powers throughout history, but the Bible notes only seven that impacted Jehovah God's people and of which should be of intense interest to sincere Bible students. These are (1) Egypt as seen at Exodus chapters 1-15, of (2) Assyria as noted at 2 Kings 17:5, 6, 17, destroying the ten tribe kingdom of Israel in 740 B.C.E., of (3) Babylon as noted at 2 Kings 25, whereby the two tribe kingdom of Judah was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 B.C.E., of (4) Medo-Persia at Ezra 1 that caused Babylon's downfall in 539 B.C.E., taking control of the land of Israel, of (5) Greece as now having domination of the territory of Israel that Medo-Persia ruled over with Alexander the Great's defeat of Darius III in 331 B.C.E., of (6) Rome with the downfall of the last of the four kings that came from Alexander's death, the Ptolemic dynasty in 30 B.C.E.

Rome was the ruling world power when the apostle John wrote the Bible book of Revelation in 96 C.E Hence, as the angel said that "five have fallen, one is (Rome), the other has not yet arrived".(Rev 17:10) This last "king" or ' seventh king' (7), arrived in 1917 as the Anglo-American dual world power when the United States joined forces with Britain during World War I.

The "ten horns.....that mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom" seen at Revelation 17:12 are all of the other political governments of earth existing during "the Lord's day", that began with Jesus enthronement as king of God's kingdom in 1914.(Rev 1:10) These exist parallel with the Anglo-American dual world power for "one hour" from the beginning of the "Lord's day" forward or for a short period of time until their destruction along with the Anglo-American world power at Armageddon.(Rev 17:14)

When Studying Daniel and Revelation, it's important to remember those two are linked.

4 of the fallen then are - Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome.
From there, figure out the other dominating entity, which became the 5th Beast, the 5th Beast is also part of the 6th, and the 7th, and the 8th.

Guestman said:

Rome was the ruling world power when the apostle John wrote the Bible book of Revelation in 96 C.E Hence, as the angel said that "five have fallen, one is (Rome), the other has not yet arrived".(Rev 17:10) This last "king" or ' seventh king' (7), arrived in 1917 as the Anglo-American dual world power when the United States joined forces with Britain during World War I.

The "ten horns.....that mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom" seen at Revelation 17:12 are all of the other political governments of earth existing during "the Lord's day", that began with Jesus enthronement as king of God's kingdom in 1914.(Rev 1:10) These exist parallel with the Anglo-American dual world power for "one hour" from the beginning of the "Lord's day" forward or for a short period of time until their destruction along with the Anglo-American world power at Armageddon.(Rev 17:14)

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According to that then, someone from either Great Britain or the United States ought to go to Jerusalem when another temple is built upon the Temple Mount, and then place the "abomination of desolation" in the "holy place" per the Book of Daniel, and sit in that temple proclaiming himself as God according to Apostle Paul.

Does Great Britain the U.S. doing that sound crazy? It is, which is where your theory leads.

The Bible prophecy is specific to 'a pseudo-Christ' (Greek pseudochristos per Matt.24:24), which is what Jesus pointed to in Matt.24. That means a false one CLAIMING to be Messiah in JERUSALEM.

The eight kings are ALL kings over Daniel's 4th empire/beast. In other words, Daniel names the first three empires/beasts by name - but not the 4th. Thus, Scripture gives us twenty-six - by my count - unique characteristics of the 4th empire to help us correctly identify it. And this is one of the keys to understanding end time prophecy - properly identifying the 4th empire of Daniel by using the unique characteristics provided by Scripture. And one of those unique characteristics is to properly identify the eight kings that will rule over this empire from its conception until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Consequently, when you guys continue to hold to the old end time paradigms that you hold to, you misidentify these eight kings, confusing them for kingdoms when Scripture clearly says they are kings, and, as a result, your whole end time paradigm becomes flawed.

The "five that were" are 1. Muhammad, 2. Abu Bakr, 3. Umar, 4. Omar and 5. Ali - The ONLY five Caliphs (kings) the Islamic Empire has ever known. The sixth will be "Gog of the land of Magog". The 7th will be the Mahdi (Falsed Prophet) and the 8th will be "Jesus, son of Mary" (the Antichrist).

"The beast (the Caliphate) who once was (it ended with Ali), and now is not (Gog has not yet appeared), is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven (the Caliphate) and is going to his destruction" (Rev 17:11)...When you properly identify the various characters of eschatology then all the prophecies all come together with ease.

Richard Neal - author, Kingdom of the Antichrist

veteran said:

According to that then, someone from either Great Britain or the United States ought to go to Jerusalem when another temple is built upon the Temple Mount, and then place the "abomination of desolation" in the "holy place" per the Book of Daniel, and sit in that temple proclaiming himself as God according to Apostle Paul.

Does Great Britain the U.S. doing that sound crazy? It is, which is where your theory leads.

The Bible prophecy is specific to 'a pseudo-Christ' (Greek pseudochristos per Matt.24:24), which is what Jesus pointed to in Matt.24. That means a false one CLAIMING to be Messiah in JERUSALEM.

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There is no temple to be built upon what you call the "Temple Mount" in Jerusalem. With the temple in Jerusalem having been abandoned by Jehovah God as Jesus said in 33 C.E.(Matt 23:38), and later destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E., it was "a shadow of heavenly things".(Heb 8:5)

This pictured the great spiritual temple in heaven, for Hebrews 10 speaks of those chosen by Jehovah for the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3;1) and proving loyal till death (Rev 2:10) as having "boldness for the way into the holy place by the blood of Jesus."(Heb 10:19) The "holy place" is not on the earth, "but into heaven itself", where Jesus offered his perfect life blood to God.(Heb 9:24)

At Hebrews 9, the apostle Paul says that "Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation."(Heb 9:11) The "greater and more prefect tent" is the spiritual temple that the physical temple pictured.

The "ten horns" at Revelation 17 are all of the political governments on earth that includes the "seventh king" or Anglo-American world power that "receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast" since 1914 (Rev 17:12), with the "wild beast" initially being the League of Nations but is now the United Nations.(Rev 17:8) Ten as used in the Bible means earthly completeness, as in the case of the "Ten Words" that covered all the laws of Mosaic covenant (Ex 34:28), the ten plagues upon Egypt.

The "ten horns" have given "authority" to the "wild beast" or United Nations by supporting it, both financially and with troops. In fact, it was at the behest of both the United States and Britain that originally the League of Nations came into existence in 1920 and continues to play a major role in the support of the United Nations, the "eighth king", that "was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction."(Rev 17:8)

When the League of Nations went defunct with the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, it went into the "abyss" or deathlike state. However, it came out of the "abyss" in June 1945 as the United Nations. Those "who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly", feeling that this organization can bring true peace and security to the earth, even putting it in place of God's kingdom, and hence becoming ' disgusting' in God's eyes. It the modern day "disgusting thing that causes desolation" (Matt 24:15) and it, along with the "ten horns", will be used by Jehovah God to ' make the harlot devastated and naked ', to forever remove the false religious empire, Babylon the Great.(Rev 17:16, 17)

With Jehovah having "executed judgment upon the great harlot" (Rev 19:2), then the "ten horns" or political governments of the earth, along with the "eighth king", the United Nations, will then "battle with the Lamb" at Armageddon, to be wiped off the face of the earth forever.(Rev 16:14, 16; Dan 2:34, 35)

This is all like a bad dream....just too many plots wade through

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Richard Neal said:

The eight kings are ALL kings over Daniel's 4th empire/beast. In other words, Daniel names the first three empires/beasts by name - but not the 4th. Thus, Scripture gives us twenty-six - by my count - unique characteristics of the 4th empire to help us correctly identify it. And this is one of the keys to understanding end time prophecy - properly identifying the 4th empire of Daniel by using the unique characteristics provided by Scripture. And one of those unique characteristics is to properly identify the eight kings that will rule over this empire from its conception until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Consequently, when you guys continue to hold to the old end time paradigms that you hold to, you misidentify these eight kings, confusing them for kingdoms when Scripture clearly says they are kings, and, as a result, your whole end time paradigm becomes flawed.

The "five that were" are 1. Muhammad, 2. Abu Bakr, 3. Umar, 4. Omar and 5. Ali - The ONLY five Caliphs (kings) the Islamic Empire has ever known. The sixth will be "Gog of the land of Magog". The 7th will be the Mahdi (Falsed Prophet) and the 8th will be "Jesus, son of Mary" (the Antichrist).

"The beast (the Caliphate) who once was (it ended with Ali), and now is not (Gog has not yet appeared), is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven (the Caliphate) and is going to his destruction" (Rev 17:11)...When you properly identify the various characters of eschatology then all the prophecies all come together with ease.

Richard Neal - author, Kingdom of the Antichrist

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The 8 kings of Rev.17:10-11 are about five previous kings that existed, and one king that existed in Apostle John's days, and a 7th which was yet to come, and then in final an 8th. In other words, none of them exist together concurrently.

But the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13 that rule "one hour" with the beast (beast king), they do all exist together concurrently at the same time, the time when the final beast king comes to power. It's those ten that reign with the final beast king of Rev.17:10-11 that represent the ten horns of Daniel's 4th beast pattern.

Guestman said:

There is no temple to be built upon what you call the "Temple Mount" in Jerusalem. With the temple in Jerusalem having been abandoned by Jehovah God as Jesus said in 33 C.E.(Matt 23:38), and later destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E., it was "a shadow of heavenly things".(Heb 8:5)

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Well, yes there is another temple to built in Jerusalem for the end. And orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today are getting prepared to buld it.

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel specifically involves the placing of an idol abomination in the temple at Jerusalem. Antiochus IV served as a pattern for that event, though he was not the pseudo-Christ which Jesus was warning His servants about in Matt.24.

veteran said:

The 8 kings of Rev.17:10-11 are about five previous kings that existed, and one king that existed in Apostle John's days, and a 7th which was yet to come, and then in final an 8th. In other words, none of them exist together concurrently.

But the 10 kings of Rev.17:12-13 that rule "one hour" with the beast (beast king), they do all exist together concurrently at the same time, the time when the final beast king comes to power. It's those ten that reign with the final beast king of Rev.17:10-11 that represent the ten horns of Daniel's 4th beast pattern.


Well, yes there is another temple to built in Jerusalem for the end. And orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today are getting prepared to buld it.

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel specifically involves the placing of an idol abomination in the temple at Jerusalem. Antiochus IV served as a pattern for that event, though he was not the pseudo-Christ which Jesus was warning His servants about in Matt.24.

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Though Orthodox Jews may have thoughts of restoring the temple in Jerusalem, this has no backing from Jehovah God. Jesus showed that Jehovah clearly "broke ranks" with the Jewish nation, telling them that "your house is abandoned to you !" and then completing this by saying (quoting from Ps 118:26): "For I say to you, You will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ' Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name."(Matt 23:38, 39)

When Jesus quoted from Daniel 9:27, saying to his disciples, that "when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation" (Matt 24:15), he was referring to the Roman armies with their ensigns that would be in the midst of the city and temple.

The Roman legions had their various standards and ensigns bearing images of eagles or some animals; later small statues of the emperor were added. These banners had religious significance, were considered sacred and holy to the point of being worshiped, and were guarded at the cost of human life. It was for such reasons that the Jews violently opposed their presence in Jerusalem.

In 66 C.E., because of the Jewish revolt, the Roman army under the command of General Cestius Gallus, came up against Jerusalem, surrounding "the holy city" (Isa 52:1) which became the center of the Jewish revolt. When this happened in which the Roman army was 'caught sight of ', the Christians recognized it as the "disgusting thing" that Jesus said would be "standing in a holy place" or Jerusalem.

Though Cestius Gallus could have taken the city, even making a thrust right up to the temple walls, undermining it, however, for some unexplained reason, he withdrew. Concerning this withdrawal, Josephus says: “Cestius . . . suddenly recalled his troops, renounced his hopes, without having suffered any reverse, and, contrary to all calculation, retired from the city.” (The Jewish War, II, 540 [xix, 7])

These then followed Jesus words, "then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains", fleeing about 70 miles northeast to Pella, a Gentile city.(Matt 24:16) These had only a matter of days before it would be extremely difficult to leave the city, for only when the Jewish Zealots had left to attack the retreating Roman army was there a way out peacefully.

veteran said:

It's not that difficult.


Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
(KJV)

"five are fallen" = Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Mesopotamia

"one is" = Roman, Domitian in John's days

"and the other is not yet come... he must continue a short space" - the final Antichrist for the great tribulation time

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and of the seven, and goeth into perdition" = Satan, when he is released one more time at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign.

ANYTIME... you see God's Word referring to one like that king that goes into 'perdition', that means Satan. The reason is that only he and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perdition into the future lake of fire. No flesh man, not even any of the previous beast kings like Nebuchadnezzar have been judged yet. The reason why Satan is "of the seven" previous kings is because he's been the one behind them in attempt to establish his kingdom over all the earth.

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Nice, but isn't a beast usually a nation, not the ruler?

Questor said:

Nice, but isn't a beast usually a nation, not the ruler?

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All Beast Kingdoms have a king...a mountain and a head!

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

veteran said:

Rev 19:20
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

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Veteran, if these two, the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, are they human? For the spirits haved come out of their mouths, and presumably are no longer possessed?

veteran said:

(KJV)

Per the Rev.13:11-17 Scripture, the "another beast" also labeled with the term "dragon" is who does the miracle working of signs and wonders per that Scripture. Because of this Rev.19:20 link, many simply omit the Rev.13:11 "dragon" association and say that one is the "false prophet". Confusing isn't it? Is that one of Rev.13:11 the "another beast" speaking as a "dragon" working miracles to deceive, or is he just the "false prophet" that prepares for the coming of the final Antichrist/pseudo-Christ? He is both, for they represent roles the "dragon" will fulfill. And I must remind one again, per Rev.12:9 the "dragon" is simply another title for the Devil himself.

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My confusion continues. Are the beings that play the roles of AntiChrist, and the False Prophet purely supernatural, as in fallen angels taking human form? And is the Dragon Spirit standing invisibly outside the antics of the AntiChrist, and the False Prophet, to direct and manipulate events, and provide the power that creates the miracles and wonders that the False Prophet does?


Q

Guestman said:

Though Orthodox Jews may have thoughts of restoring the temple in Jerusalem, this has no backing from Jehovah God. Jesus showed that Jehovah clearly "broke ranks" with the Jewish nation, telling them that "your house is abandoned to you !" and then completing this by saying (quoting from Ps 118:26): "For I say to you, You will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ' Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name."(Matt 23:38, 39)

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Regardless who one thinks it's 'backed' by, it's Bible prophecy from The LORD, and that's what matters. Some can speculate all the way up to the event of why God would allow it, but they won't be any closer to understanding His warnings about it in relation to the coming false messiah that's to sit in it. For His servants in the lands of Jerusalem for that time He said to flee it, and for those of the countries to not enter in.

Guestman said:

When Jesus quoted from Daniel 9:27, saying to his disciples, that "when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation" (Matt 24:15), he was referring to the Roman armies with their ensigns that would be in the midst of the city and temple.

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Where did you get that translation of Matt.24:15 from? The KJV is very close to the actual Greek.

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
(KJV)

The "abomination of desolation" from Daniel is about an IDOL setup for false worship. Antiochus IV in 165-170 B.C. set the pattern for it in Jerusalem. The Roman army never did any such thing. They couldn't even get control of the temple; it burned down before they could sieze it (per the Jewish historian Josephus).

Guestman said:

The Roman legions had their various standards and ensigns bearing images of eagles or some animals; later small statues of the emperor were added. These banners had religious significance, were considered sacred and holy to the point of being worshiped, and were guarded at the cost of human life. It was for such reasons that the Jews violently opposed their presence in Jerusalem.

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You might want to study Ezekiel 8 more closely. An idol in the temple setup in false worship is what the "abomination" meaning is about from the Book of Daniel. It's directly linked to the Ezekiel 8 & 9 event (which has yet to be fulfilled by the way).

Guestman said:

In 66 C.E., because of the Jewish revolt, the Roman army under the command of General Cestius Gallus, came up against Jerusalem, surrounding "the holy city" (Isa 52:1) which became the center of the Jewish revolt. When this happened in which the Roman army was 'caught sight of ', the Christians recognized it as the "disgusting thing" that Jesus said would be "standing in a holy place" or Jerusalem.

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Why don't you cover all... the different sieges of Jerusalem per history, something like 27 times? Jerusalem was even re-named in pagan Jupiter worship at one time in history after the Romans sacked it. It's the 28th siege that will be the final one, and it's still yet future.

Guestman said:

Though Cestius Gallus could have taken the city, even making a thrust right up to the temple walls, undermining it, however, for some unexplained reason, he withdrew. Concerning this withdrawal, Josephus says: “Cestius . . . suddenly recalled his troops, renounced his hopes, without having suffered any reverse, and, contrary to all calculation, retired from the city.” (The Jewish War, II, 540 [xix, 7])

These then followed Jesus words, "then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains", fleeing about 70 miles northeast to Pella, a Gentile city.(Matt 24:16) These had only a matter of days before it would be extremely difficult to leave the city, for only when the Jewish Zealots had left to attack the retreating Roman army was there a way out peacefully.

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The "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel has yet to be fulfilled. There was no specific Antichrist that came in 70 A.D. to desolate the temple in false idol worship. Antiochus did it around 190 years before Christ gave that prophecy in Matt.24, so he wasn't it either.

The Muslims who conquered Jerusalem after the Romans did, they did not build another Jewish temple, nor did the later Brits who took Jerusalem at the end of WWI. A standing temple has to be there to fulfill the abomination of desolation prophecy. It's a very specific prophecy. So trying to bring in all those things into it is not going to work.

Questor said:

Nice, but isn't a beast usually a nation, not the ruler?

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Not if you actually read Rev.13:11.

Rev 13:11-13
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(KJV)

Questor said:

Veteran, if these two, the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, are they human? For the spirits haved come out of their mouths, and presumably are no longer possessed?

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No, they are not humans.

Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire so far today. No flesh man has been judged and sentenced yet. That's why it's simple to know the "beast" and "false prophet" are roles for the tribulation time. Christ destroys those roles at His coming. But the "dragon", notice he's not thrown in that fire with the "beast" and "false prophet", why? It's because per Rev.12:7 and Rev.20:2 that's one of Satan's titles, and he isn't cast into the lake of fire until the end of Christ's thousand years reign. That "beast" going into the fire in Rev.19 applies to both the roles of the "first beast" (kingdom), and the "another beast". But notice the "dragon" is left out of that, which is another pointer by our Lord that the "dragon" is who?

Questor said:

My confusion continues. Are the beings that play the roles of AntiChrist, and the False Prophet purely supernatural, as in fallen angels taking human form? And is the Dragon Spirit standing invisibly outside the antics of the AntiChrist, and the False Prophet, to direct and manipulate events, and provide the power that creates the miracles and wonders that the False Prophet does?


Q

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To be honest, I believe the final Antichrist, "false prophet", and the "dragon", and the "another beast", will be Satan all rolled into one. Would that mean a supernatural working upon this earth for those roles? Yes. Sadly, many are not going to understand that until our Lord Jesus comes to reveal him. That's why the railers are going to appear soon after my post on this to try and counter it all. I may as well continue this point then...

When our Lord Jesus pointed out in Matt.24 that false one's working of great signs and wonders would, if it were possible, deceive His own elect, that was to show how powerful a delusion Satan is going to work de facto upon this earth in pretending to be God. That is what the very first sin was about, Satan coveting God's Throne. In Isaiah 14 God showed how Satan made the claim that he would sit upon the mount of the congregation.

Consider what kind of miracle working, and to what level of miracle working it would take to almost... deceive Christ's own elect? They will not be deceived, because He has sealed them. So that points to Satan's working on earth having to be so powerful in deception that it would almost... snare them too, even though it will not.

As for how it's even possible for Satan and his angels to come to this earth with the image of man, the majority won't understand how that can be until our Lord Jesus returns from Heaven. Angels don't have to take on human form, they are already in human form, for that simply means man's image (remember Lot's helpers). Furthermore, and more importantly, per Gen.1 that image of man originated with our Heavenly Father Himself, not from the flesh.

Guestman said:

There is no temple to be built upon what you call the "Temple Mount" in Jerusalem. With the temple in Jerusalem having been abandoned by Jehovah God as Jesus said in 33 C.E.(Matt 23:38), and later destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E., it was "a shadow of heavenly things".(Heb 8:5)

This pictured the great spiritual temple in heaven, for Hebrews 10 speaks of those chosen by Jehovah for the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3;1) and proving loyal till death (Rev 2:10) as having "boldness for the way into the holy place by the blood of Jesus."(Heb 10:19) The "holy place" is not on the earth, "but into heaven itself", where Jesus offered his perfect life blood to God.(Heb 9:24)

At Hebrews 9, the apostle Paul says that "Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation."(Heb 9:11) The "greater and more prefect tent" is the spiritual temple that the physical temple pictured.

The "ten horns" at Revelation 17 are all of the political governments on earth that includes the "seventh king" or Anglo-American world power that "receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast" since 1914 (Rev 17:12), with the "wild beast" initially being the League of Nations but is now the United Nations.(Rev 17:8) Ten as used in the Bible means earthly completeness, as in the case of the "Ten Words" that covered all the laws of Mosaic covenant (Ex 34:28), the ten plagues upon Egypt.

The "ten horns" have given "authority" to the "wild beast" or United Nations by supporting it, both financially and with troops. In fact, it was at the behest of both the United States and Britain that originally the League of Nations came into existence in 1920 and continues to play a major role in the support of the United Nations, the "eighth king", that "was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction."(Rev 17:8)

When the League of Nations went defunct with the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, it went into the "abyss" or deathlike state. However, it came out of the "abyss" in June 1945 as the United Nations. Those "who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly", feeling that this organization can bring true peace and security to the earth, even putting it in place of God's kingdom, and hence becoming ' disgusting' in God's eyes. It the modern day "disgusting thing that causes desolation" (Matt 24:15) and it, along with the "ten horns", will be used by Jehovah God to ' make the harlot devastated and naked ', to forever remove the false religious empire, Babylon the Great.(Rev 17:16, 17)

With Jehovah having "executed judgment upon the great harlot" (Rev 19:2), then the "ten horns" or political governments of the earth, along with the "eighth king", the United Nations, will then "battle with the Lamb" at Armageddon, to be wiped off the face of the earth forever.(Rev 16:14, 16; Dan 2:34, 35)

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"Jehovah" is a Latin name invented for God (Hebrew = Yahweh) by the Masoretes in the 11th century A.D. Consequently I fail to understand why some Christians insist on using it?...

I'll tell you the same thing I told another Christian brother the other day - I agree with you, no Christian wants or demands a 3rd Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. With that being said, however, you insist on looking at Scripture through Christian eyes as if there are no other religious groups who will play a part in eschatological events. Looking at things through a Christian prism only causes you - and so many others - to misinterpret so many eschatological prophecies....The whole point of the drama we know as end time events is that two heretical groups - Rabbinic Judaism and Islam - force the whole world into Armageddon. The Jews, because of their rejection of Christ, demand a 3rd Temple, and they will get it. The muslims, because of Muhammad's hatred for the Jews, will try to annihilate the Jewish nation...The Antichrist will be empowered by the heretical Christologies of Gnosticism, which Islam is the most dominate form of Gnosticism the world has ever known...So these two heresies, for various reasons, will build a 3rd Temple and will perform the "abomination that causes desolation" act, and, in the process, force all the world - including Christians, into the worst time humanity has ever known (The Great Tribulation Period) and, as a result, Armageddon...Learn to look at prophecy, not just through the eyes of a Christian, but through the eyes of others as well. Doing so will help you better understand the end time paradigm Scripture is trying to give you...

Raeneske said:

When Studying Daniel and Revelation, it's important to remember those two are linked.

4 of the fallen then are - Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome.
From there, figure out the other dominating entity, which became the 5th Beast, the 5th Beast is also part of the 6th, and the 7th, and the 8th.

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Why "pagan Rome?' How can you prove that from Scripture?...Why not the Soviet Empire, or Napoleon's France, or the Islamic Empire - or even American or the European Union?...What makes it the Roman Empire - an empire which went extinct over 1500 years ago? Or by the "Roman Empire" you are, instead, referring to the Catholic Church or a quai-revised Roman Empire in the form of the European Union?...In other words, you just can't simply claim Scripture is speaking about "the Roman Empire" - because you are only regurgitating something someone else has written - as if it is fact, but rather, you must prove your hypothesis from Scripture. So please do so because I, like many others, would love to see it so that we too can believe it...

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist

Richard Neal said:

Why "pagan Rome?' How can you prove that from Scripture?...Why not the Soviet Empire, or Napoleon's France, or the Islamic Empire - or even American or the European Union?...What makes it the Roman Empire - an empire which went extinct over 1500 years ago? Or by the "Roman Empire" you are, instead, referring to the Catholic Church or a quai-revised Roman Empire in the form of the European Union?...In other words, you just can't simply claim Scripture is speaking about "the Roman Empire" - because you are only regurgitating something someone else has written - as if it is fact, but rather, you must prove your hypothesis from Scripture. So please do so because I, like many others, would love to see it so that we too can believe it...

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist

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Daniel 8:7-8 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Alexander the Great came (the he goat, part of Grecia), and smote the ram (Media and Persia), and he waxed stronger and stronger. However:

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Daniel 11:2-4 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

At the height of his power, he died, and his kingdom was split into 4 parts, not according to his posterity (no offspring). After Grecia is when this 4th power is to arise.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 8:9-11 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:23-24 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Rome arose out of Grecian territory. As Rome grew and Grecia fell. Rome persecuted Christians like mad (Example: Nero). Rome though, like all kingdoms, grew and fell, and broke. At some point, they had 10 kingdoms, and in the midst of these ten kingdoms, another power arose. This same power was still Roman, but it was not Pagan Rome, rather it is what we would call, "Papal Rome" as they still hold the name "Rome". This power never stopped persecuting Christians. Papal Rome then becomes the 5th Beast. And yes, they are the 5th Beast, because there is a definite prophecied time of their rule.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

That does not match up with:

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

And that must be stated, because it seems like people get those two powers mixed up. One small reason, the timing does not match up (one hour, and 3/2 prophetic years). Pagan Rome broke up, and when they had 10 pieces, a little power arose, known as Papal Rome, and subdued 3 of those 10 pieces. Then Pagan Rome reigned for their prophecied time (a time, times, dividing of a time), an exact time as foretold by God, not "an hour" which just means a short time, in which the later power rules. After Christian persecution, Papal Rome was put out of commission. They ceased to be a church and state. That marks their fall, being the 5th King in Revelation.

Revelation 17:6,8 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

That beast is called "was" and "is not" and "yet is". That is 3 beast times, differences, for the same beast. Papal Rome is the power which was prophecied to be drunk with the blood of the Saints and Martrys. Looking at the Protestant Reformation, if we have seen and studied it, we know how bloody the breakaway was from this church. So, Papal Rome was the 5th Beast, the "was" phase. It became "is not" when they lost their power, when they were no longer church and state, becoming a 6th Beast. They became a new power, simply only a state. However, this power is also prophecied to be the "yet is" as well. In 1929, when Mussolini brought the pact, which once again made Rome a Church and state, entering a new beast as well, yet the same old beast. This would be the 7th Beast.

However we see that that same beast even is the 8th Beast, which goes into perdition. That 8th Beast, which has not yet come, will reign with other kingdoms who shall have power with Rome.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

I have only recently heard of the "Club of Rome", but I have not researched much on that, but it also is not much of a shock. Prophecy is accurate. Always has been, always will be. Also

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rome is the only church (woman) that is also a great city (Vatican city) which reigns over the kings of the earth (being a church and state). And the fact that the Pope has been calling for a new world order, or even the shredding of constitutions is no surprise. The earthly kings bend their knee to the Roman Church, and that isn't s surprise either. They are going to give their power to Rome.

Last part:

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

It was prophecied it would be a diverse power from the rest. Though Rome has technically "fallen" they still are around, and in mighty power as well. Not only that, but they were the only mighty power to be both a Church and State, that is, A woman riding a beast.

And that is just a small part of the reason I believe the 4th Beast is Pagan Rome. I went a little further, but that's okay.