Universal Reconciliation

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mark s

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Mark do you know what reconciliation means?

The basic meaning in my understanding is to restore to relationship.

But you know there are two sides to reconciliation.

I can be reconciled to you, while you are not reconciled to me.

Let's say you've agregiously wronged me, and that caused a division. I can forgive, open my arms to you, but you not respond. That is the condition of unsaved man with God.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[font=Verdana']35[/font] “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.[font=Verdana']36[/font] You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)

Let's try again with this scripture.

This passage does not teach Universal Salvation. But it does teach God's compassion and patience even towards those who will remain His enemies, and ultimately stand condemned.

To be clear . . . this is what you mean when you say "universal reconciliation", is actually "universal salvation", is that right?
 

jiggyfly

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The basic meaning in my understanding is to restore to relationship.

But you know there are two sides to reconciliation.

I can be reconciled to you, while you are not reconciled to me.

Let's say you've agregiously wronged me, and that caused a division. I can forgive, open my arms to you, but you not respond. That is the condition of unsaved man with God.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Have you any scriptures to base this on?





This passage does not teach Universal Salvation. But it does teach God's compassion and patience even towards those who will remain His enemies, and ultimately stand condemned.

To be clear . . . this is what you mean when you say "universal reconciliation", is actually "universal salvation", is that right?

Does it teach unending torment???
 

JoeinArkansas

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The reason I cannot agree with UR is that there are so many passages in scripture that speak of punishment...eternal punishment at that, for those who scorn Christ. Passages that speak of how important it is to teach Christ NOW...to come to Christ NOW. Why on earth any of these things if....pffft, it'll all pan out. Now, or later, I'll still end up 'up there'. Absolutely nothing in scripture gives us that idea...even gives us leave to speculate upon it. If all there is is the word "all" occasionally, well, I'd beg you to consider your doctrine very, very carefully. In light only of scripture, not on what makes you comfortable or seems 'fair'.

Dear Rach,
Do you not know that everyone will be punished/judged? Only the true church is being judged at this time. Until we are judged, we will go on sinning. Judgment is a part of the salvation process. And yes, salvation is a long and painful process because we must die or be destroyed so that a new person in Christ can be born. Salvation is a birth process. At this time, the church is in the gestation period and upon their resurrection, they will be "born" into the Kingdom of Heaven. Heaven is not a location the saved go to live. Heaven is within us. It is Christ living in us. That is what salvation is all about. It is not about merely making the right decision to follow Christ and then getting to go to Heaven. It is about Christ making us all into children of God and that takes time. It is a narrow path that must be travelled down. If we don't complete this path in this life, we will not be in Christ's church. We have no say so in the matter because we have no ability within ourselves to travel the narrow path. It is all the work of Christ. He is the potter and we are the clay. We are born with a carnal mind that hates God. At the time of Christ's choosing, He will call us to Himself and give us of HIS faith. We have no faith that comes from within ourselves. But after that calling out, we will quickly "fall away" and be deceived by Satan. During that time, we will follow Satan's doctrines in Satan's church and become a "man of sin" (2Thess). Satan masquerades as Christ and deceives us all until Christ comes to us a second time and heals our spiritual vision. Unless Christ comes a second time, we will go on following Satan but for the Elect's sake, He will come again to them. Once His Elect can see clearly, they flee Satan's church and finally start following the true Christ. If they travel on down the narrow path (spiritually mature), then they will be resurrected in a glorious new spiritual body and be like Christ. That is what salvation is and that is what Heaven is. We must die to our carnal nature and become a new man in Christ. As I said, it is all the work of Christ because we do not have the power to do any of it. We are born carnal and spiritually weak. It is solely up to Christ to change us. And Christ is faithful and true, and is not willing that any should be lost. He will not stop His work until all men have been saved and have come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This scripture is true and will be "testifed in due time". We must have patience and wait for the plan of God to finish it's course. Christ will save all mankind - that's what He came to do. He is the Savior of the world. The church will be first - that is why the church is referred to as the "first fruits". They are the best and early portion of the harvest season. But Christ will harvest the rest of His crop of mankind in the final age, at the end of the harvest season. It is all His work to do and He says that He will do it.

As I said, punishment/judgment is part of the process. However, it is NOT eternal. The bible translations have incorrectly translated the Greek words "aion" and it's adjective form "aionios". Aion means "age or eon" and aionios means "age enduring". It never means everlasting or eternal. At the time the scriptures were written, there was not a Greek word that meant eternal or everlasting. The scriptures all speak of the "ages". Christ is the God of the ages. The "ages" is all that scripture speaks of because that is all that God reveals to us. God's plan unfolds during the ages. Scripture does not speak of eternity. When scripture speaks of any thing that lasts outside of the ages, it says that we will never die, that we are immortal or that we will never perish. Eternity and everlasting are words that are not in the Greek language when the scriptures were written. There are many good articles on the web that explain this truth in great detail. But the "church" will not accept them because it destroys her doctrines - doctrines that are false and that come from Satan. Satan has deceived those who come to Christ because those who come to Christ remain spiritually blind at His first coming. Here is how Christ explains what happens to us:

Mark 8:21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

Christ said this to His apostles because they could not understand His spiritual meaning when He spoke to them about the leaven of the Pharisees. He ended the conversation with them with the question above. But in Mark 8:21-25, Christ answers His own question. But it takes spiritual understanding to see and believe His answer. Here is His answer:

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.

This tells us that when we are called out to follow Christ, we are totally spiritually blind and carnal. That is why the man is blind and needed to be touched.

Mark 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

Christ takes Him by the hand (representing our carnality and blindness as when Paul was lead by the hand) and leads him out of the town (called out to be in the church). Christ puts His hands on Him because we are carnal and that is the only way we can see Him. Christ then heals us for the first time after we have come out of the sea of unbelievers (the town).

Mark 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

Upon Christ's first coming to us, He leaves us spiritually nearsighted. At this point, scripture stills calls us spiritually blind. But because we can see a little but not clearly, Satan come in and deceives us. At this point, we go into Satan's church and remain until we die. But for the Elect's sake, Christ will come again.

Mark 8:25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

If we are chosen and blessed, Christ will come again in this age before we die in the wilderness of the harlot church (Israel's wandering in the desert for 40 years). When He comes again (second coming of Christ), He heals our vision completely and we can now see the "man of sin" that we have become in the harlot church. We quickly flee to the mountains while the harlot is destroyed within us. We are commanded to not look back (story of Lot). In Revelation, we are commanded to "come out of her my people" now that we can finally hear Christ's voice. Upon our leaving, we can now start learning of the true Christ and start spiritually maturing in Him. If we do mature and remain faithful unto death, then and only then will we be resurrected and changed into the New Man in Christ. All those who remain in the wilderness of the harlot church will die there and will go to judgement in the final age. During that final age judgment, the tares of Satan will be burned out (just as they were for the Elect after they came out of the harlot) of those being judged. The church is judged now in this age to remove the tares (wheat and tares parable) from within them so that at the harvest, all that remains is the wheat (Word of God & Christ).

Paul's conversion spiritually shows us the same thing and scripture says that his conversion is the pattern for all conversions. When Christ comes to Paul on the road, Paul accepts Christ there but immediately become blind (representing our spiritual blindness or nearsightedness) and is led by the hand into the harlot church. He stays blind for three days until Christ comes again and heals His vision and gives Him the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we would remain spiritually blind. But Christ will comes again for those He chooses and He will heal their blindness completely. At that point, the Elect start spriitually maturing in Christ until they are ready to be used by Christ.

That pattern is deplayed in many of the events of scripture, both in the New Testament and the Old. But to understand and believe them, it takes a work of Christ within your own life.

Salvation is not easy. Being born into the family of God is not easy. We all must die and be judged before we can be "born again". WE MUST ALL TRAVEL THE NARROW PATH AS LAID OUT BY CHRIST.

Joe
 

Angelina

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Hi dragonfly!
My quote:
[Acknowledging Christ after the fact or when he appears is not based on faith]

your quote:
I agree. But then I was thinking about the disciples who had seen Jesus, Who said 'blessed' will be those who have not seen yet believe, and maybe we could say the disciples would have had to exercise faith after Jesus ascended? It reminds me of when God withdrew His presence in the wilderness, and they had to trust Him every day for manna - to eat their portion today, not 'knowing' there would be a portion tomorrow.

Picking up on your point about faith one step further, we who have believed have eternal life now.

I was referring to the UR belief that those who did not receive salvation in this life are able to be saved after they expire [die] but that seems to contradict the word that says:

Hebrews 9
7 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;
and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


Hey jiggy!

Your quote:
Absolutely, but I haven't found any scripture that states it must happen before the fleshly body dies
have you?

There is more scriptural evidence pointing toward having to receive salvation in this life and no evidence at all that proves that you can be saved in hell or the lake of fire...and that my friends...is where we are heading to... :)
Since no man has returned from hell/hades to tell us that God can still save you while in hell/hades, we must refer back to the word...the story of Lazarus is a good indicator...

Luke 16
The rich man also died and was buried. [sup]23 [/sup]And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[sup]24 [/sup]“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ [sup]25 [/sup]But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. [sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
[sup]27 [/sup]“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, [sup]28 [/sup]for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ [sup]29 [/sup]Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ [sup]30 [/sup]And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ [sup]31 [/sup]But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

My biggest issue with UR is this: they hinder people from coming into the Kingdom of Heaven in this life by offering another alternative that God will save them after they expire [die]. This is contrary to the word of God and since no man has ever come back to tell the tale of escaping from hell/hades...it must be dismissed as fallacy.

PS: something my Home group leader once said: If you hear of something that leads you toward God, then it's probably of God but if you hear of something that leads you away from God...then it's probably not of God...

Shalom!!!
 

mark s

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Have you any scriptures to base this on?

Romans 5, the first part. 1 John 1. There are others. But just these make it clear.


Does it teach unending torment???

It doesn't directly address any of this. So we need to look at those Scriptures that directly address the point.

Take the sheep/goats judgment. Those on Jesus' left will go to eternal punishment. That tells us something specific and direct.
 

dragonfly

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Hi jiggyfly,

When you offered to bring scripture to be discussed, I thought you would deal with all the scripture which is contrary to the interpretation you are drawing from a few select pasages, to show how you understand those other to be interpreted - such as the ones I've mentioned.

Anyone can read that those 'in Christ' are going to be saved, and simultaneously miss out that there are Biblical steps necessary to arrive 'in Christ', in His rest. There is only one way to be saved, and it is very clear from scripture what, and why, that is - although it may need some explanation.

If men go to hell, it does not prove that God does not love man, it proves that man does not love God. This was Mark's point. If your acceptance of UR is based on your distaste for God's judgments, then you're basically saying you don't want His cross, either, for nothing could be more violent than to be identified with the cross of Christ in all its life-giving resurrection from death.
 

jiggyfly

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Romans 5, the first part. 1 John 1. There are others. But just these make it clear.




It doesn't directly address any of this. So we need to look at those Scriptures that directly address the point.

Take the sheep/goats judgment. Those on Jesus' left will go to eternal punishment. That tells us something specific and direct.

Instead can we discuss the scriptures I posted first and see what they do indeed mean?

Hi jiggyfly,

When you offered to bring scripture to be discussed, I thought you would deal with all the scripture which is contrary to the interpretation you are drawing from a few select pasages, to show how you understand those other to be interpreted - such as the ones I've mentioned.

Anyone can read that those 'in Christ' are going to be saved, and simultaneously miss out that there are Biblical steps necessary to arrive 'in Christ', in His rest. There is only one way to be saved, and it is very clear from scripture what, and why, that is - although it may need some explanation.

If men go to hell, it does not prove that God does not love man, it proves that man does not love God. This was Mark's point. If your acceptance of UR is based on your distaste for God's judgments, then you're basically saying you don't want His cross, either, for nothing could be more violent than to be identified with the cross of Christ in all its life-giving resurrection from death.

Like I said earlier if I just listed all of the scriptures many would be ignored or passed over. So can't we just discuss Luke 6:35 for now and find out what it means?
 

dragonfly

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Hi jiggyfly,

I associate Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil with Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

God does everything to keep His word to us while we are in this life, as this life is our one opportunity to turn from sin permanently, receive Christ as Saviour and Lord, and begin to walk in His ways by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is the purpose of God's goodness to the unjust and the unthankful. Note what Paul says about unthankfulness in Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them... 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful.

I have been trying to see in scripture how UR, or US could be justified, but the more I look, the more I find that God's goodness to humans during this life, and their awareness of the existence of Jesus Christ (through Christmas and Easter) and of the cross (through crucifixes) and of God's provision for us through natural resources - from milk on cereal to diamond rings - is so overwhelming that God will be entirely justified in destroying those who rejected the death of His Son as the only route to reconciliation with Him.

The Lord said to Moses - Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him. This was quoted by Peter this way in Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Either we believe Jesus when He said the wise man builds his house upon the rock by hearing and doing His sayings (Matt 7:24), or, we think we can tinker with His sayings, and alter the bits we don't like.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber... 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly... 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

I've heard the suggestion that the 'other sheep' in v 16, are the house of Israel, but, there is no distinction between house of Israel and house of Judah in the NT, so the most obvious 'other sheep' are the Gentiles, who (of course) were well known to the Lord as He had chosen Abram from among them, but were out-of-sight out-of-mind to the circumcised tribes by the time Jesus was speaking.

In the same way that God wanted Israel to focus on Him, and have no other gods before Him in the OT, under the New Covenant the same focus applies, and the same destruction that followed idolatry in the OT will follow idolatry in the NT - if not more, because Christ has come.
 

williemac

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Greetings, Jiggfly and Joein Arkansas. I would like to point out a passage that seems to have been missed to this point. It is in 2Cor.5. Vs.19 goes something like this:..."..God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their tresspasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." vs.20..." Now then, we are ambassedors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us; we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God"
The point we can get from this is that reconciliation is for a purpose. It is to bring a person into a relationship with God. The cross is God's initiation as it were, as He has dealt with the sin issue from His perspective. However, relationship is not one sided. God does not force Himself on us. There are those who do such a thing in our society and are put into jail if they are caught.
We insinctively know how wrong it is to force controls on others, taking away their right to choose who they are in relationship with. Do you suppose God does such a thing? How satisfying would it be for He or any other being to have a relationship with a robot or a puppet, one who has no show of willingness to be in a relationship?

As the passage suggests, reconciliation may well be God's initiation, but it requires a response. There can be no getting around this fact. It is imbedded in our own psyche that intimate relationship comes from a mutual interest from both parties, not to mention that this is confirmed in scripture.
I have encountered those who are universalists simply for the reason that they can't wrap their heads around eternal (forever) conscious torment. However in other threads, I have advocated for the doctrine of eternal death, which I also see in scripture. Maybe you should consider this possibility if you have a hard time with forever torment of humans.

By the way, for those who insist that faith is a gift that is somehow covertly implanted into an unsuspecting hard heart, this idea is absurd, but even moreso, it is irrelevant. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Faith is not the qualifier for salvation. It is merely the means by which it is recieved. The qualification is humility, which we (mankind) are exhorted to have. There are plenty of passages that confirm this. It takes humility to recieve a free gift of charity. It is the proud and self righteous who refuses to accept God's gift of grace.

blessings, Howie
 

Rach1370

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Dear Rach,
Do you not know that everyone will be punished/judged? Only the true church is being judged at this time. Until we are judged, we will go on sinning. Judgment is a part of the salvation process. And yes, salvation is a long and painful process because we must die or be destroyed so that a new person in Christ can be born. Salvation is a birth process. At this time, the church is in the gestation period and upon their resurrection, they will be "born" into the Kingdom of Heaven. Heaven is not a location the saved go to live. Heaven is within us. It is Christ living in us. That is what salvation is all about. It is not about merely making the right decision to follow Christ and then getting to go to Heaven. It is about Christ making us all into children of God and that takes time. It is a narrow path that must be travelled down. If we don't complete this path in this life, we will not be in Christ's church. We have no say so in the matter because we have no ability within ourselves to travel the narrow path. It is all the work of Christ. He is the potter and we are the clay. We are born with a carnal mind that hates God. At the time of Christ's choosing, He will call us to Himself and give us of HIS faith. We have no faith that comes from within ourselves.

Um...yeah....I do know this...I'm not quite sure what in my post disagrees with this!
Perhaps my only point of contention with the above is the 'heaven is within us'....sounds a little too new age for my liking. Yes, Christ is within us, and therefore the Kingdom of God is with us, in a sense, now. But the Bible clearly talks of a dwelling place where God is now...he receives the saints unto him there when they die....and a place that he will make for us to live in the next age.

But after that calling out, we will quickly "fall away" and be deceived by Satan. During that time, we will follow Satan's doctrines in Satan's church and become a "man of sin" (2Thess). Satan masquerades as Christ and deceives us all until Christ comes to us a second time and heals our spiritual vision. Unless Christ comes a second time, we will go on following Satan but for the Elect's sake, He will come again to them. Once His Elect can see clearly, they flee Satan's church and finally start following the true Christ. If they travel on down the narrow path (spiritually mature), then they will be resurrected in a glorious new spiritual body and be like Christ. That is what salvation is and that is what Heaven is. We must die to our carnal nature and become a new man in Christ. As I said, it is all the work of Christ because we do not have the power to do any of it. We are born carnal and spiritually weak. It is solely up to Christ to change us. And Christ is faithful and true, and is not willing that any should be lost. He will not stop His work until all men have been saved and have come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Whoa...Okay, this is a new perspective, one I've not heard before. And I'm afraid I cannot agree with it...at all. I see nothing biblically backed up above, sorry. Sure, I know I'm not perfect, and I won't be until Jesus calls me home. But I do NOT belong to Satan. I belong to Jesus only...he has won me with his blood, and that is strong enough to hold me to him, and to help me walk closers to him during my years left.

As for the rest of your post...again, I'm sorry, but I do not see scripture supporting it. Nor do I see any orthodox Christian denominations supporting it.
 

jiggyfly

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Hi jiggyfly,

I associate Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil with Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

God does everything to keep His word to us while we are in this life, as this life is our one opportunity to turn from sin permanently, receive Christ as Saviour and Lord, and begin to walk in His ways by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is the purpose of God's goodness to the unjust and the unthankful. Note what Paul says about unthankfulness in Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them... 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful.

Ok great someone willing to discuss the verses posted.
I see no mention of unending torment here do you? If God intends to torment unbelievers endlessly would Jesus have said that His Father loves his enemies? Wouldn't He have instructed them/us to torture them and then we would be like our Father in heaven?

The point I want to make in this verse is that God loves His enemies and is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.
 

mark s

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 12:55 PM
19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
21 This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.23 But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.
Col 1:19-23 (NLT)

I see the evidence of UR all through the scriptures and here is a good one to start off the discussion.



Hi Jiggyfly,

As previously stated, all are reconciled to God through Jesus, but that reconciliation must be received.

These who are being address in the above passage have received that reconciliation:

Colossians 1:1-2 ESV
(1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
(2) To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

That this reconciliation must be received is demonstrated in:

2 Corinthians 5:18-20 ESV
(18) All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
(19) that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
(20) Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.


Love in Christ,
Mark
 

dragonfly

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Hi jiggyfly,

Ok great someone willing to discuss the verses posted.
I see no mention of unending torment here do you? If God intends to torment unbelievers endlessly would Jesus have said that His Father loves his enemies? Wouldn't He have instructed them/us to torture them and then we would be like our Father in heaven?

The point I want to make in this verse is that God loves His enemies and is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.

Where did Jesus say 'His Father loves His enemies'? I know where Jesus told us to love our enemies, but that is a completely different thing.

Yes, God is kind to the unthankful and unjust, but that season ends when they die.

Hebrews 9:27, 28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 - 10 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 - 12 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lets [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


I am not choosing scriptures which skirt round the unavoidable conclusion that God is going to destroy evil-doers. Every evil-doer has had the same (perhaps more) opportunity to turn away from sin, and has chosen not to. God is not mocked. Vengeance is His.


Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect [man], neither will he help the evil doers: {help...: Heb. take the ungodly by the hand}

Psalms 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.


I know these words were written before the revelation of Messiah on earth, but God has not changed. He sent His Son to 'take away sin' for the very purpose that men should be restored to His likeness in this life, and walk in freedom to serve God without fear of death.

The humanistic distaste for God's judgment, as I said before, makes people - Christians - think the cross was so that they could get something for themselves, rather than that God could get something for Himself. He went through that pain to purchase to Himself a Bride. He will have His Bride, no matter how many 'Christians' choose not to embrace the cross, (thereby missing the door beyond which is resurrection life).

I believe God does love all the peoples of the world, and gave His Son that all should have the opportunity to be saved; but people who choose not to 'retain God in their knowledge' in this life, will wake up when they die, to find that God has not changed nor gone away. All the changing and going away was done by them, and like Adam, they will bear the consequences of their choice. While they were on this earth they were happy to receive of His bounty - rain, sunshine, provision, spouse, children, houses, stock and land - and for their unwillingness to render Him due thanks and worship, He has a just reply.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up to thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8, 9 But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

What you are asking for in UR (or 'US', as Mark suggested), is that God should start respecting persons.

You want Him to overlook the sins of those who never repented and never trusted in Christ for salvation through His blood, and to treat them in exactly the same way as those who obeyed Him.

How can that be justice for the Lamb of God? His death atoned for all sin, and on the condition that all sinners repent, all sinners will be released from the bondage of eternal death. That is not a difficult concept. Children can grasp it, so there is plenty of hope for adults.

Do you not realise that many a sinner knows they are choosing to be judged, when they die rather than now? And they make what may be a flawed decision to take that risk? But nevertheless they are as much in possession of their faculties as Adam was when He disobeyed?

I realise there is also the matter of self-deception, but no-one is born into self-deception. It is a course embarked upon while being dishonest with self about the legitimate claims God has on one's life because Christ has died (for the sins of the whole world). Paul undermines even that aspect, by pointing out how God has revealed Himself in creation to such a degree, that everyone who turns from Him is 'without excuse'. Rom 1:19, 20. Scripture is littered with examples of God's goodness to mankind, and yet individuals still prefer not to acknowledge Him.

He has a right to be angry.

There is quite a bit about God's anger in scripture, and it is very relevant to this discussion. The idea that God ought not to hold people responsible for their choices, also undermines His own character as totally just. This is the point Paul is making in Romans 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus. This is the only 'justification' on offer from God.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifies the wicked, and he that condemns the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.

On the cross, Jesus Christ was made an abomination to God, for our sakes.

How is He to 'see the travail of His soul and be satisfied', if the entire basis on which He agreed to go to the cross with His Father, has been altered outside that agreement, when it comes to the 'day of judgment'? How can God be seen to be just, then? The whole basis of Jesus' ministry, was His love and trust of His Father's judgment. Father cannot backtrack now, without being untrustworthy.

And all that said, how would we be able to know that those who have trusted in the gospel would receive what they believed for?


Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple,
and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
 

Episkopos

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The reconciliation between God and Men is at the cross. This is where we need to go in order to appropriate the salvation paid for all men who would lose their lives for the sake of a new creation. Too many think that the bible is where one goes for reconciliation to God. But the bible testifies of being IN Christ. The only way into Christ is through the cross. So although Jesus died for all men, without any favouritism, it is only they who come to the Lord in order to first lose their lives who will save their lives.
 
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Axehead

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Ok great someone willing to discuss the verses posted.
I see no mention of unending torment here do you? If God intends to torment unbelievers endlessly would Jesus have said that His Father loves his enemies? Wouldn't He have instructed them/us to torture them and then we would be like our Father in heaven?

The point I want to make in this verse is that God loves His enemies and is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.

If you stay in context in Luke you will notice judgement and condemnation belong to God and there will be a judgment and condemnation.


Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Noticed in Revelation 6:10 that they were not rebuked or corrected for asking how long would it be until the Lord judged and avenged their blood from them that dwell on the earth. On the contrary, they were not rebuked, but rather they were told that it would be a little while longer (a little season). In other words, Judgement and Vengeance are coming.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


So, judgement and vengeance are coming but they will be handed out by God, not man.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

So, we see no contradiction in the Word. Judgement and Vengeance is not ours, we are to walk as Jesus walked on earth so that our lives would be conduits of the Lord's redemptive grace to sinners that some might be saved.

2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Salvation only comes in the physical body in this life through a body (Christ's) and there is no salvation for spirit beings.

God has made it very clear that after death there is the judgment.

You cannot be an advocate of Satan in this life and then become a friend of God in the next.

We are to look to Calvary (Cross) for salvation. We don't look to the afterlife. What is the purpose of the Cross and the Blood of Christ, if we are looking to a "purging" in the afterlife to save us? Seems that the cross and blood become irrelevant and even sin and our deeds in this life become irrelevant if God's great love can just put people into a "fire" and purge them of their rebellion against them and MAKE THEM love Him.

Punishment does not change a man's heart. It never has. We see that decisions made in this life cannot be changed. They are SET ETERNALLY. That is why the Lord wants us to preach the GOSPEL!

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Axehead
 

JoeinArkansas

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Um...yeah....I do know this...I'm not quite sure what in my post disagrees with this!
Perhaps my only point of contention with the above is the 'heaven is within us'....sounds a little too new age for my liking. Yes, Christ is within us, and therefore the Kingdom of God is with us, in a sense, now. But the Bible clearly talks of a dwelling place where God is now...he receives the saints unto him there when they die....and a place that he will make for us to live in the next age.



Whoa...Okay, this is a new perspective, one I've not heard before. And I'm afraid I cannot agree with it...at all. I see nothing biblically backed up above, sorry. Sure, I know I'm not perfect, and I won't be until Jesus calls me home. But I do NOT belong to Satan. I belong to Jesus only...he has won me with his blood, and that is strong enough to hold me to him, and to help me walk closers to him during my years left.

As for the rest of your post...again, I'm sorry, but I do not see scripture supporting it. Nor do I see any orthodox Christian denominations supporting it.

Dear Rach,
Orthodox teaching is completely harlot because it is spiritually blind. The true message of all that Jesus taught and DID is concealed from all those who do not have "eyes to see" or "ears to hear". Once you have been spiritually healed by Christ, the scriptures will open up to you. But for those who remain carnally minded, the scriptures are concealed and that is why there are so many different church denominations. They are all spiritually blind and have their own carnal understanding of scripture.

Salvation is being changed from a carnal sinful creature into a child of God. Going to a location or "going home" has nothing to do with it. Christ's words are "spirit" (John 6:63) and unless you have been given spiritual discernment by Christ, you will never understand what He teaches. We all must be judged and we are all condemned to die. Our carnal nature must and will DIE. All the scriptures you read about destruction of the ungodly is a necessary part of being "born again". We must travel the "path" that leads us to being "born again". That path takes a lifetime to travel. During that journey, Christ will work within us to bring about our change. He set a patten by Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. That pattern is also shown to us over and over again in scripture throughout the various teachings and parables of Christ. The pattern that Christ has set is:

1. Christ comes to us - we have no ability to come to Him, nor would we ever want to.
2. He calls us out to folow Him but He only partially heals our spiritual blindness - he leaves us spiritually nearsighted.
3. Because we are spiritually nearsighted, we are easily and quickly deceived by Satan and enter his harlot church where Satan masquerades as Christ.
4. If we are "chosen" by Christ, He will come again to us (second coming of Christ) and heal our spiritual vision completely by giving us the Holy Spirit.
5. Once Christ shows us the "man of sin" that we have become in the harlot church, we quickly flee to the mountains to find the true Christ. We hear Christ's call to "come out of her my people".
6. Once we find the true Christ, we will finally begin to spiritually mature and if we remain faithful to the end, then upon our resurrection from the dead, we will be fully made to be like Christ and will be in His church.

This is the path one must follow in this life if they are chosen by Christ to be in His church. He chooses us and not the other way around. Those not "chosen" will be travel the narrow path in the final age to come.

In this age, Christ is only trying to save those He has chosen for His church. That is why He conceals Himself and His message. He calls "many" to be in His church but He only chooses a "few". The "many" fill up the church pews each Sunday and unless Christ comes to them a second time, they will die in the wilderness just like the Israelites did. But for the Elect's sake, He will come again to them or they too would die in the wilderness (Matt 24). But like Joshua and Caleb (the Elect), the Elect will come out of the wilderness (harlot church) to find the promised land (Christ).

Nothing that is taught in the harlot churches is scriptural because the church leaders are spiritually blind. Christ created the harlot church so that He can call out the "chosen" from it. That is how Christ chooses the kings and priests that will reign with Him over the final two ages of time. And He will use His church to bring in the full harvest of mankind. Eventually, all mankind will travel the narrow path. We must all die or be destroyed so that the new man in Christ can be born within us. Heaven is not a location that the "saved" go to upon their resurrection from the dead. Heaven comes to live in us and we then become a part of the Kingdom of Heaven - a child of God. In the first chapter of Genesis, that is what God declared He was going to do - to make mankind into His image. And that is what life is all about - God giving birth to new children. He loves us all even though at this time we are evil. But He sent Christ to change us all from the carnal evil sinful creatures we are, into children of God. It is ALL His work and He will not fail in that work to save us (change us).

Joe
 

jiggyfly

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Hi jiggyfly,



Where did Jesus say 'His Father loves His enemies'? I know where Jesus told us to love our enemies, but that is a completely different thing.

Yes, God is kind to the unthankful and unjust, but that season ends when they die.

Well let's look at what was said.
35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)

Jesus said when we love our enemies and do good to them we are acting like children of the Most High.

If you stay in context in Luke you will notice judgement and condemnation belong to God and there will be a judgment and condemnation.


Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Not sure the point your making here Axehead can you elaborate? Please remember we are discussing Luke 6:35&36 right now.

For God so loved the world . . .

Great point Mark, thanks. :)
 

dragonfly

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Jesus said when we love our enemies and do good to them we are acting like children of the Most High.

Yes, and of course if we want to be recognised as sons of God, so we must obey His teachings. I am not suggesting it is our place to deal with evil doers as God is going to, but most definitely those who do not make peace with God through His cross, will perish unless they repent.

There is no scripture which supports that those who are not 'in Christ' will be 'saved'. None. Verses can be taken out of context though.
 

Axehead

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Well let's look at what was said.
35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)

Jesus said when we love our enemies and do good to them we are acting like children of the Most High.


Not sure the point your making here Axehead can you elaborate? Please remember we are discussing Luke 6:35&36 right now.



Great point Mark, thanks. :)

Not sure what you would like discussed when you take a couple of sentences and exclude the rest of the Lord's conversation. But, that is generally what is often done.