Pre-destination and the elect

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
Please show me where my mouth demonstrated this type of judgement from you. Then tell me how your judgment is edifying to me or the church.

You don't seem to understand the scripture and this comes from your heart out your mouth. If you can't understand the scripture that you say you base your belief on. How are you going to understand what I say?
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I understand perfectly. You have judgments in your heart against God if he is a certain way. Your judgments are without knowledge or understanding. Then in your vanity you would expect God, who you hate if he is a certain way, to come and explain it to you.

7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
I think you are speaking about yourself here. It is you who wish God to be something He isn't so you can justify a hardened heart. God is not the author of confusion! God is not responsible for evil. God is love, love is not responsible for evil.

The direction you lead in saying God is responsible for evil is evil in itself. God is sovereign and he will rightly judge all evil. Hopefully I am wrong in my assessment or your heart condition, but if I am correct I pray God heals your hardened heart.
 

ttruscott

New Member
Feb 3, 2012
105
0
0
Wet Coast of Canada
I'm really struggling with the idea of predestination for a select few that God ahs set aside to be spared the torments of eternal hell-fire.

As i udnerstand it, all are guilty of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore all deserve hell, but God through his mercy and grace has permitted some individuals to be with him in his kingdom, whilst all the rest burn in hell.

So before a person is born, God ah decided where they will go when they die, but what if a person who is pre-destned to go to hell becomes a Christian? is it in vain. Also, what if a person who is pre-destined for heaven becomes an athiest. Where is the justice, and mor eimportantly where is their room for free will?

You see, if we don't ahve free will then we are not responsible for what we do wrong because we are destined to do it and it is unavoidable so surely then we canot be held accountable, except for the fact that if we are destined for hell then we are held accountable for what ever we do, wether we repent or not.

I'm jsut struddling because pre-destination seems to horribly unfair and God is not unfair.

Clearly Paul believed it and Martin luther and John Calvin both believed it, so sicne it has a solid gorunding in scripture, i canot jsut dismiss it as some ind of invention of the reformation.

Now, no need to get all anti-Calvinistic about all this... they are just half the story.

Might you consider that since if we do not have free will GOD is the creator of sin and we re not guilty and
since Jesus told us that if we sin we are the slaves of sin and must serve our master that there is no free will here on earth?

Consider that GOD might have created every spirit in HIS image before HE created the physical universe and that we were innocents there. Then we made our true free will decision to accept GOD and HIS purpose for our creation of to reject HIM.

Those who accepted HIM He gave the free gift of election and those who rejected HIM HE prepared for damnation. When some of HIS elect chose to become evil in HIS sight over HIS plan for HIS eternal enemies, they needed redemption so HE made the earth and our lives with no free will to learn our lessons about the true nature of evil in the reprobate and its addictiveness in ourselves.

In HIS good time HE brings HIS sinful elect to Chirst and redeems them and sanctifies them until they are holy and willing to accept HIS plan for HIS enemies. This is all set out in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Order of Creation:
1. Spirits all created.

2. Spirits all offered a true free will choice
a. Choose yes and get elected to heaven. (No one is elected yet.)
b. Choose no and get predestined to hell. (No ne is predestined yet.)

3. Spirits all chose from their own heart, no coercion
a. some chose yes, they would like to be elected to heaven, so they are.
b. Some chose no they didn't believe in heaven nor hell; they'd take their chances with predestination.

4. All choices finished, God reveals Himself to His creation and every knee bows and every voice sings His praises and those who chose against HIM realize their doom, their predestination was real and by their choice applied to them.

God did NOT create them predestined.

He gave them a clear and somewhat weighted choice to choose their own fate. We chose our election or predestination to hell by our first true free will choice to accept or reject God's invitation, a choice made by faith (in the consequences, including election) but without proof (of the consequences, including election).

Quite a bit different, eh? Now, since you know how election could work, let's not throw out the doctrine of election because any false way of thinking about it makes Him out a monster.

Peace, Ted
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
I think you are speaking about yourself here. It is you who wish God to be something He isn't so you can justify a hardened heart. God is not the author of confusion! God is not responsible for evil. God is love, love is not responsible for evil.

The direction you lead in saying God is responsible for evil is evil in itself. God is sovereign and he will rightly judge all evil. Hopefully I am wrong in my assessment or your heart condition, but if I am correct I pray God heals your hardened heart.

I just showed you the scripture but either you can't understand it or you are just plain ignoring it.
So you want to make up your own god like millions of others. Go ahead but the real God will overtake you and them real soon. The day of Judgement and wrath is about to dawn. on everyone.
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
Surely, though, if God is in total control then nothing happens without his saying so. That means that he must have at some point, possibly before he even create the world, decided two would coem to jin hm in his kingdom ndwho would perish in the fires of eternal peridition.

Maybe, Hell isn't forever, but all I know is that from the scriptures that I've read, it ertainly points out strongly that Hell is not somewher eyou wanna be. However, do you havre a choice,since God ahs pre-decided ho will follow his way or who will not.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
Surely, though, if God is in total control then nothing happens without his saying so. That means that he must have at some point, possibly before he even create the world, decided two would coem to jin hm in his kingdom ndwho would perish in the fires of eternal peridition.

Maybe, Hell isn't forever, but all I know is that from the scriptures that I've read, it ertainly points out strongly that Hell is not somewher eyou wanna be. However, do you havre a choice,since God ahs pre-decided ho will follow his way or who will not.

Yes you have a choice.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life anddeath, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live :
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
I really do hope we have choice. I've been a faithful Christian all my life and I would hate to be told on the day of judgement that I am going to hell because it was decided before i was even born. "Sorry, nothignpersonal but your just not on the list1 Next!"

I jsut wish there as some way we could know, but only God the father knows.

I once told another ember of my church about this and said that i as worried that I might not be one of the elect and was told that my problem is that I don't trust God enough.

Of course I trust God, I jsut don't know is will and his plan for me.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
I really do hope we have choice. I've been a faithful Christian all my life and I would hate to be told on the day of judgement that I am going to hell because it was decided before i was even born. "Sorry, nothignpersonal but your just not on the list1 Next!"

I jsut wish there as some way we could know, but only God the father knows.

I once told another ember of my church about this and said that i as worried that I might not be one of the elect and was told that my problem is that I don't trust God enough.

Of course I trust God, I jsut don't know is will and his plan for me.
If you don't know His will and His Plan then what Gospel have you been following?

Ask God for His Spirit first and then read Christ's teachings.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I just showed you the scripture but either you can't understand it or you are just plain ignoring it.
So you want to make up your own god like millions of others. Go ahead but the real God will overtake you and them real soon. The day of Judgement and wrath is about to dawn. on everyone.
You posted one verse that speaks of calamity. The original word in Hebrews can be thought of as natural disasters such as earthquakes, tornados, hailstorms and the like. God's word never says God is responsible for evil. Now as for your warning, thank you, but let me post this:

Amos 5

18 Alas, you who are longing for the day of the Lord,
For what purpose will the day of the Lord be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;
19 As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.
20 Will not the day of the Lord be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it?
 

epostle1

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2012
3,326
507
113
72
Essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Only the Holy Spirit can heal bigotry and self hatred, all we can do is pray that God delivers them from their nightmare world of doom and gloom.
 

Elle

Member
Sep 27, 2012
118
10
18
Here is the way I see it as of now, but as more truth is revealed this could change. I do not personally believe in the doctrine of predestination. What I do believe is no man's will can ever override God's will. Yeshua stated in John 15:16 that none of his apostles chose him, but rather Yeshua chose them. He also said in John 6:44 that no man can come to him unless the Father draws him. So we have God doing the calling, sending out the invite if you will. This is where man's free will to choose whom he will serve kicks in. Remember the parable of the 4 different kind of seeds, which one do we aspire to be. Only the very best of the many called become the first fruits. Many are called, but few are chosen to rule along side Yeshua. I don't believe that they are perfect, but they are as perfect as perfect gets in these fleshly bodies. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes, no deceit (false doctrines) is found in their mouths, they are virgins (pure in their beliefs), they did not defile themselves with women (false churches). These are the 144,000, the few chosen out of the many.

As for the Lake of Fire, I do not believe this Lake of Fire is a literal hell where non-believers burn for all eternity, nor do I believe it is a place one goes to be purified. I believe it is nothing more than the complete cessation of that soul, they cease to exist. We know that those who commit the unpardonable sin will never be forgiven in this age or the age to come. There are only 2 ages, the one we are in now and the age to come that has no end. Those who commit the unpardonable sin will not be there.
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
\i think o get the jist of what your saying!

Your saying the soul is deestroyed right! OK then what was the most destructive thing in the ancient world? Fire! The fire lasts forever, which means that the soul is destroyed forever and won't come back.

I can see that there migth be a case for the rejection of the idea of a litteral hell but what about all the church teaching over the ages and what about the near death experiences? I'd love to not have to believe in a an everlasting place of punnishment but I feel that there is jsut too much evidence there in favour of their being one.
 

Elle

Member
Sep 27, 2012
118
10
18
You said:
"\i think o get the jist of what your saying!

Your saying the soul is deestroyed right! OK then what was the most destructive thing in the ancient world? Fire! The fire lasts forever, which means that the soul is destroyed forever and won't come back.

I can see that there migth be a case for the rejection of the idea of a litteral hell but what about all the church teaching over the ages and what about the near death experiences? I'd love to not have to believe in a an everlasting place of punnishment but I feel that there is jsut too much evidence there in favour of their being one."



Yes, I am saying the soul is destroyed. Refer to Matt 10:28, Yeshua says not to fear the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell (Gehenna). Gehenna was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies were burned. Yeshua is using this earthly dump to relay a spiritual truth. The earthly Gehenna is not burning today. Those who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire burn up, but not for eternity. It's nothing more than destruction of the soul. The doctrine of eternal torment in a burning hell came from Dante's Inferno and was adopted as truth by many churches. God takes no joy in seeing the wicked perish, he would prefer that all turn and repent. To think that God would enjoy watching his children burn forever makes God a sadist. Those who refuse to live by God's laws are humanely put down, much like we would put down a pet that is suffering. As for near death experiences, I have no explanation. There could be something to it, but I don't know. I personally would not concern myself with NDEs.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
You posted one verse that speaks of calamity. The original word in Hebrews can be thought of as natural disasters such as earthquakes, tornados, hailstorms and the like. God's word never says God is responsible for evil. Now as for your warning, thank you, but let me post this:

Amos 5

18 Alas, you who are longing for the day of the Lord,
For what purpose will the day of the Lord be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;
19 As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.
20 Will not the day of the Lord be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it?

The birth Pains will not last forever.
The purpose of the day of the Lord is to remove the world and bring forth a Holy Kingdom. if you Know Him and walk and talk with Him. If He has given you His Spirit and power to bring forth "The day of The Lord" then the Lord Himself is the good in the Day of the Lord. I delight to get it over with so that all creation can move forward into His Kingdom and His Perfection.

Only the Holy Spirit can heal bigotry and self hatred, all we can do is pray that God delivers them from their nightmare world of doom and gloom.

When it overtakes you and you begin to wail and gnash your teeth. We will still forgive you and lift you up.
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
Sorry about eh type-O's.

The wicked in Hell have chosen not to be with God, they have decided that they don't want to know him and Hell is a consequence of their decision. If God brought the wicked into Heaven then there would be no free will because the true consequences would not be played out. On the day of judgement God will sit on his throne and pronounce judgements on those that spurned him and his gift of salvation. I don' think for one minute that he takes the slightest bit of pleasure in it thoug.
 

Elle

Member
Sep 27, 2012
118
10
18
You said:
"Sorry about eh type-O's."


Don't worry about it, everyone makes mistakes.

"The wicked in Hell have chosen not to be with God, they have decided that they don't want to know him and Hell is a consequence of their decision. If God brought the wicked into Heaven then there would be no free will because the true consequences would not be played out. On the day of judgement God will sit on his throne and pronounce judgements on those that spurned him and his gift of salvation. I don' think for one minute that he takes the slightest bit of pleasure in it thoug."

Yes, you got it. Their free will is what will have inevitably put them there. If it sounded like I was saying that YOU, personally, thought God took pleasure in it, I didn't mean it that way. I meant it as a generalization. For it indeed will hurt God very much to have to mete out the punishment they, themselves, chose. This can clearly be shown in Ezekiel 18:32, Ezekiel 33:11 and Deuteronomy 30:19. God wants them to choose life, but he will not force one to do so.
  • [background=rgb(222, 222, 222)]0[/background]
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
For God so loved the world that he gave forth his only son.

he does love us all, eve the people that we as humans dispise like Hitler and Bin laden, but these people chose their paths and if they are in heaven then the true consequences of their actions would not be played out and God would not be just and if God is not jsut then he is not God. But God is God and God is just and God is love and it is because he is love that it does indeed hurt him when his beloved children (creations) turn to evil. God is not bound by anything but he is jsut and that is why he does allow those who do not wnat to know him to have ternal separation from him.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
 

[email protected]

Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
1,635
127
63
West Central Florida
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
I'm really struggling with the idea of predestination for a select few that God ahs set aside to be spared the torments of eternal hell-fire.

As i udnerstand it, all are guilty of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore all deserve hell, but God through his mercy and grace has permitted some individuals to be with him in his kingdom, whilst all the rest burn in hell.

So before a person is born, God ah decided where they will go when they die, but what if a person who is pre-destned to go to hell becomes a Christian? is it in vain. Also, what if a person who is pre-destined for heaven becomes an athiest. Where is the justice, and mor eimportantly where is their room for free will?

You see, if we don't ahve free will then we are not responsible for what we do wrong because we are destined to do it and it is unavoidable so surely then we canot be held accountable, except for the fact that if we are destined for hell then we are held accountable for what ever we do, wether we repent or not.

I'm jsut struddling because pre-destination seems to horribly unfair and God is not unfair.

Clearly Paul believed it and Martin luther and John Calvin both believed it, so sicne it has a solid gorunding in scripture, i canot jsut dismiss it as some ind of invention of the reformation.

God is NOT fair. God is JUST.

To understand this is the beginning of an answer to your question. If you can't understand it, then you will never know the answer.

The Bible is full of examples proving God isn't fair. It's also full of examples showing God is just.

'Fairness' is a relative human term. It is not of God. Fairness doesn't even mean the same thing from one man to another. One man's fairness is another man's unfairness. God's ways are not man's way. God's justice is on God's terms, not those of humanity. If you would seriously pursue understanding of the doctrines of Calvinism vs. Arminism then you must abandon your preconceptions of human fairness. They do not apply to the ideology at all.

The basic concept for examination here is free will. Can a man freely decide to accept or reject Christ as his savior or is he preconditioned and preprogrammed?

Calvinists say that man is preconditioned - no such thing as free choice (see TULIP - the 5 points of Calvinism).
Arminism states that man has the ability to freely accept or reject Christ. (see Prevenient Grace)

Both ideologies accept the idea that man is unable to desire, seek or accept God by man's own efforts. This is referred to as the doctrine of total depravity. Man cannot of and by himself seek God. Man is completely and totally unable and unwilling to do so. All of man's nature is bent upon sin. Since man cannot will himself to love or seek God or to do so much as repent of his sins, man needs help.

Enter Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit convicts a man of sin, thus leading him to the first step in the process of redemption - repentance. Unless a man repents of his sins he cannot see God. Period. The Holy Spirit needs to show a man what his sins look like TO GOD.

The scholarly version of this is to examine the law. Breaking the law is sin in God's eyes. It shows man his sin - but cannot save. The law is like looking in the bathroom mirror to discover how dirty one's face is. The mirror of the law convicts of sin, but neither mirror nor law can save. You need soap and water for that. The spiritual equivalent of soap and water is the blood of Christ and the water of baptism.

Having repented, by means of Holy conviction, the man is led - again by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the point of accepting or rejecting Christ. Accepting Christ (enabled by Jesus' blood shed on the cross), results in salvation - the continuation of the work of redemption. Rejecting Christ ultimately results in damnation - hell.

Calvinists believe that God has determined AND MANIPULATES a certain group, called the elect, to accept Christ BEFORE the individuals are elevated by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to do so. Basically Calvinists state that the individual is preconditioned unto salvation. The word is predestined.

Arminists believe that man goes through the same process EXCEPT that when presented with the opportunity to accept Christ the man is allowed to freely choose to accept or reject Christ. Free will. The process of conviction before conversion remains the same as does the process of sanctification afterwards.

It should be clearly understood that Calvinists (Presbyterians/Lutherans) and Arminists (Baptists/nonDenominational) AGREE at all points except at the point where the person is elevated by the Holy Spirit to accept or reject Christ.

But where does divine justice enter into this process?

According to the doctrine of total depravity ALL MEN deserve damnation. God's JUSTICE enters into the situation when God decides to save man from his own sin. Man deserves hell, but God's justice has determined to save.

Finally, it should be pointed out that scripture has been used like some sort of tennis ball or religious ammunition to attack both positions. The debate has raged for centuries and is no closer to resolution than the day Jesus died on the cross. Scoffers use nothing except a perverted sense of human fairness.

The truth may never be realized until Jesus returns. Even then, Our Lord may not choose to satisfy the debate at all or perhaps by saying something like 'what is that to you?' or 'it's none of your business'.

As an aside, I personally know men who have been elevated to the point of decision and who have said "thank you very much, this is all very nice but I don't want it." As for me and my family, we shall serve the Lord.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...