The Goddess Man Has Made

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neophyte

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Go back and read post # 15, it states the following: "had determined to continue a virgin"

Mary is Ever-virgin
“And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ's parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,' and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;' who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,--that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).
"For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,' and not Behold you have this son also,' then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.' Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.' What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?" Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).
"Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed." Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).
"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.' He hath here used the word till,' not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till'? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.' And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,' not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,' it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word "till," to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).
“Thus, what it was necessary for thee to learn of Him, this He Himself hath said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for thee to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, For neither did His brethren believe in Him.' John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).
"But those who by virginity have desisted from this process have drawn within themselves the boundary line of death, and by their own deed have checked his advance; they have made themselves, in fact, a frontier between life and death, and a barrier too, which thwarts him. If, then, death cannot pass beyond virginity, but finds his power checked and shattered there, it is demonstrated that virginity is a stronger thing than death; and that body is rightly named undying which does not lend its service to a dying world, nor brook to become the instrument of a succession of dying creatures. In such a body the long unbroken career of decay and death, which has intervened between the first man and the lives of virginity which have been led, is interrupted. It could not be indeed that death should cease working as long as the human race by marriage was working too; he walked the path of life with all preceding generations; he started with every new-born child and accompanied it to the end: but he found in virginity a barrier, to pass which was an impossible feat." Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 13 (A.D. 371).
"[T]he Son of God...was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit..." Epiphanius, Well Anchored Man, 120 (A.D. 374).
"The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin" Basil, Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 (ante A.D. 379).
"But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord's brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin." Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Against Helvedius, 21 (A.D. 383).
"Imitate her, holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children, nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son." Ambrose, To the Christian at Vercellae, Letter 63:111 (A.D. 396).
"Her virginity also itself was on this account more pleasing and accepted, in that it was not that Christ being conceived in her, rescued it beforehand from a husband who would violate it, Himself to preserve it; but, before He was conceived, chose it, already dedicated to God, as that from which to be born. This is shown by the words which Mary spake in answer to the Angel announcing to her conception; How,' saith she, shall this be, seeing I know not a man?' Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. But, because the habits of the Israelites as yet refused this, she was espoused to a just man, who would not take from her by violence, but rather guard against violent persons, what she had already vowed. Although, even if she had said this only, How shall this take place ?' and had not added, seeing I know not a man,' certainly she would not have asked, how, being a female, she should give birth to her promised Son, if she had married with purpose of sexual intercourse. She might have been bidden also to continue a virgin, that in her by fitting miracle the Son of God should receive the form of a servant, but, being to be a pattern to holy virgins, lest it should be thought that she alone needed to be a virgin, who had obtained to conceive a child even without sexual intercourse, she dedicated her virginity to God, when as yet she knew not what she should conceive, in order that the imitation of a heavenly life in an earthly and mortal body should take place of vow, not of command; through love of choosing, not through necessity of doing service. Thus Christ by being born of a virgin, who, before she knew Who was to be born of her, had determined to continue a virgin, chose rather to approve, than to command, holy virginity. And thus, even in the female herself, in whom He took the form of a servant, He willed that virginity should be free." Augustine, Of Holy Virginity, 4 (A.D. 401).
"Where are they who think that the Virgin's conception and giving birth to her child are to be likened to those of other woman? For, this latter case is one of the earth, and the Virgin's is one from heaven. The one case is a case of divine power; the other of human weakness. The one case occurs in a body subject to passion; the other in the tranquility of the divine Spirit and peace of the human body. The blood was still, and the flesh astonished; her members were put at rest, and her entire womb was quiescent during the visit of the Holy One, until the Author of flesh could take on His garment of flesh, and until He, who was not merely to restore the earth to man but also to give him heaven, could become a heavenly Man. The virgin conceives, the Virgin brings forth her child, and she remains a virgin." Peter Chrysoslogus, Sermon 117, (A.D. 432).
"And by a new nativity He was begotten, conceived by a Virgin, born of a Virgin, without paternal desire, without injury to the mother's chastity: because such a birth as knew no taint of human flesh, became One who was to be the Saviour of men, while it possessed in itself the nature of human substance. For when God was born in the flesh, God Himself was the Father, as the archangel witnessed to the Blessed Virgin Mary: because the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee: and therefore, that which shall be born of thee shall be called holy, the Son of God.' The origin is different but the nature like: not by intercourse with man but by the power of God was it brought about: for a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bare, and a Virgin she remained." Pope Leo the Great (regn. A.D. 440-461), On the Feast of the Nativity, Sermon 22:2 (ante A.D. 461).
"The ever-virgin One thus remains even after the birth still virgin, having never at any time up till death consorted with a man. For although it is written, And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born Son, yet note that he who is first-begotten is first-born even if he is only-begotten. For the word first-born' means that he was born first but does not at all suggest the birth of others. And the word till' signifies the limit of the appointed time but does not exclude the time thereafter. For the Lord says, And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world, not meaning thereby that He will be separated from us after the completion of the age. The divine apostle, indeed, says, And so shall we ever be with the Lord, meaning after the general resurrection." John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith, 4:14 (A.D. 743).
From- The Early Church Fathers

-- That is the one verse that Catholics have to either attack or ignore.

Especially when you research and find out that the word "brothers" actually translates to "brothers" and not "cousins" as is sometimes used elsewhere.





Those same people have also chosen not to provide feedback, either supporting or refuting these quotes that Axehead provided:


-- In Roman Catholicism, Mary rather than Christ is "the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces." [sub]Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, no 12. [/sub]

-- "And from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that Our Saviour purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood." [sub]Ad Diem, no 14.[/sub]

-- The Second Vatican Council said that Mary's role as co-mediator was that her mediation "...does not hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ but on the contrary fosters it." [sub]Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, no 60.[/sub]

-- "God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary." Pope Pius IX, Ubi Primum

-- "Every grace granted to men has three successive steps: By God is is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us." [sub]Pope Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper [/sub]

-- Christ is the source of blessing, but Mary is the channel: "...every blessing that comes to us from the Almighty God comes to us through the hands of Our Lady" [sub]Pope Pius XI, Ingracescentibus Malis.[/sub] This includes salvation. Mary is said to be the "Mediatrix of our salvation" [sub]Pope Leo XIII Jucunda Semper,[/sub] and the "instrument and guardian of our salvation" [sub]Pope Leo XIII, Parta Humano Generi. [/sub]

-- "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." [sub]Pope Leo XIII , Adiutricem Populi[/sub]

Jesus' "Brothers" (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen
Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."
Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.
Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.
Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.
Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.
Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.
Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.
Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."
2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.
2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.
1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.
Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."
Tobit 5:11 - Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him "brother."
Amos 1: 9 - brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).
 

Mungo

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That is just his opinion. You should reveal to the good folks reading this thread that the Roman Catholic Church does not consider the teaching of the Church Doctors to be infallible or binding upon the Church.

Yet knowing that you make much play in the OP about Augustine and Aquinas.


In addition, the Popes and Bishops found no support from the Church Doctors for the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary (there are 32 Doctors of the church, major and minor, today including 2 women, both mystics - Catherine of Siena and Terese of Avila).
Axehead

The OP was about the immaculate conception. Why the switch to another topic?

Those same people have also chosen not to provide feedback, either supporting or refuting these quotes that Axehead provided:


-- The Second Vatican Council said that Mary's role as co-mediator was that her mediation "...does not hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ but on the contrary fosters it." [sub]Second [/sub][sub]Vatican[/sub][sub] Council, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, no 60.[/sub]

OK. I’ll comment on this one.

1. Lumen Gentium does not use “co-mediator” anywhere in the document so implying that it does is deceitful

2. Let’s have the whole paragraph rather than a snippet and the translation from the Vatican web site:
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all". The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.

3. What is the problem with this?

4. The document does use the title Mediatrix in para 62 and says “This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.”
 

Axehead

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Yet knowing that you make much play in the OP about Augustine and Aquinas.

The OP was about the immaculate conception. Why the switch to another topic?

OK. I’ll comment on this one.

1. Lumen Gentium does not use “co-mediator” anywhere in the document so implying that it does is deceitful

2. Let’s have the whole paragraph rather than a snippet and the translation from the Vatican web site:
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all". The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.

3. What is the problem with this?

4. The document does use the title Mediatrix in para 62 and says “This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.”

The title is "The Goddess Man Has Made". The OP does not bind me to it. I can stick with the Title.

The RCC denies she is Mediatrix out of one side of their mouth but out of the other side she is Mediatrix again. Mediatrix is Co-Mediator, Mungo.
Catholic Catechism 968 and 969.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[sup]509[/sup]

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[sup]510[/sup]

Now, let's review what the RCC says about Mary so that we stick with the Title of this thread.

Here is the Catholic Catechism on Mary.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

Axehead
 

Mungo

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The title is "The Goddess Man Has Made". The OP does not bind me to it. I can stick with the Title.

The RCC denies she is Mediatrix out of one side of their mouth but out of the other side she is Mediatrix again. Mediatrix is Co-Mediator, Mungo.
Catholic Catechism 968 and 969.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[sup]509[/sup]

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[sup]510[/sup]

Now, let's review what the RCC says about Mary so that we stick with the Title of this thread.

Here is the Catholic Catechism on Mary.

http://www.vatican.v...G0015/__P2C.HTM

Axehead

Mediatrix is NOT Co-Mediator, Axehead

And none of the quotes or references you have give use the term Co-Mediator (or co-mediator).

You deceitfully tried to imply that Lumen Gentium said she was, and now you are trying to claim that the Catechism says she is when it doesn't.

I wonder if you can you sink much further.

Did you read the link you gave?

Did you note what it says:

"No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

Not a godess Axehead, just a creature, but a very special one.
 

Foreigner

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Mary is Ever-virgin
"And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ's parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,' and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;' who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,--that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).
"For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,' and not Behold you have this son also,' then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.' Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.' What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?" Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).
"Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed." Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).
"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.' He hath here used the word till,' not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till'? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.' And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,' not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,' it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word "till," to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).
“Thus, what it was necessary for thee to learn of Him, this He Himself hath said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for thee to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, For neither did His brethren believe in Him.' John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).
"But those who by virginity have desisted from this process have drawn within themselves the boundary line of death, and by their own deed have checked his advance; they have made themselves, in fact, a frontier between life and death, and a barrier too, which thwarts him. If, then, death cannot pass beyond virginity, but finds his power checked and shattered there, it is demonstrated that virginity is a stronger thing than death; and that body is rightly named undying which does not lend its service to a dying world, nor brook to become the instrument of a succession of dying creatures. In such a body the long unbroken career of decay and death, which has intervened between the first man and the lives of virginity which have been led, is interrupted. It could not be indeed that death should cease working as long as the human race by marriage was working too; he walked the path of life with all preceding generations; he started with every new-born child and accompanied it to the end: but he found in virginity a barrier, to pass which was an impossible feat." Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 13 (A.D. 371).
"[T]he Son of God...was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit..." Epiphanius, Well Anchored Man, 120 (A.D. 374).
"The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin" Basil, Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 (ante A.D. 379).
"But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord's brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin." Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Against Helvedius, 21 (A.D. 383).
"Imitate her, holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children, nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son." Ambrose, To the Christian at Vercellae, Letter 63:111 (A.D. 396).
"Her virginity also itself was on this account more pleasing and accepted, in that it was not that Christ being conceived in her, rescued it beforehand from a husband who would violate it, Himself to preserve it; but, before He was conceived, chose it, already dedicated to God, as that from which to be born. This is shown by the words which Mary spake in answer to the Angel announcing to her conception; How,' saith she, shall this be, seeing I know not a man?' Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. But, because the habits of the Israelites as yet refused this, she was espoused to a just man, who would not take from her by violence, but rather guard against violent persons, what she had already vowed. Although, even if she had said this only, How shall this take place ?' and had not added, seeing I know not a man,' certainly she would not have asked, how, being a female, she should give birth to her promised Son, if she had married with purpose of sexual intercourse. She might have been bidden also to continue a virgin, that in her by fitting miracle the Son of God should receive the form of a servant, but, being to be a pattern to holy virgins, lest it should be thought that she alone needed to be a virgin, who had obtained to conceive a child even without sexual intercourse, she dedicated her virginity to God, when as yet she knew not what she should conceive, in order that the imitation of a heavenly life in an earthly and mortal body should take place of vow, not of command; through love of choosing, not through necessity of doing service. Thus Christ by being born of a virgin, who, before she knew Who was to be born of her, had determined to continue a virgin, chose rather to approve, than to command, holy virginity. And thus, even in the female herself, in whom He took the form of a servant, He willed that virginity should be free." Augustine, Of Holy Virginity, 4 (A.D. 401).
"Where are they who think that the Virgin's conception and giving birth to her child are to be likened to those of other woman? For, this latter case is one of the earth, and the Virgin's is one from heaven. The one case is a case of divine power; the other of human weakness. The one case occurs in a body subject to passion; the other in the tranquility of the divine Spirit and peace of the human body. The blood was still, and the flesh astonished; her members were put at rest, and her entire womb was quiescent during the visit of the Holy One, until the Author of flesh could take on His garment of flesh, and until He, who was not merely to restore the earth to man but also to give him heaven, could become a heavenly Man. The virgin conceives, the Virgin brings forth her child, and she remains a virgin." Peter Chrysoslogus, Sermon 117, (A.D. 432).
"And by a new nativity He was begotten, conceived by a Virgin, born of a Virgin, without paternal desire, without injury to the mother's chastity: because such a birth as knew no taint of human flesh, became One who was to be the Saviour of men, while it possessed in itself the nature of human substance. For when God was born in the flesh, God Himself was the Father, as the archangel witnessed to the Blessed Virgin Mary: because the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee: and therefore, that which shall be born of thee shall be called holy, the Son of God.' The origin is different but the nature like: not by intercourse with man but by the power of God was it brought about: for a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bare, and a Virgin she remained." Pope Leo the Great (regn. A.D. 440-461), On the Feast of the Nativity, Sermon 22:2 (ante A.D. 461).
"The ever-virgin One thus remains even after the birth still virgin, having never at any time up till death consorted with a man. For although it is written, And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born Son, yet note that he who is first-begotten is first-born even if he is only-begotten. For the word first-born' means that he was born first but does not at all suggest the birth of others. And the word till' signifies the limit of the appointed time but does not exclude the time thereafter. For the Lord says, And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world, not meaning thereby that He will be separated from us after the completion of the age. The divine apostle, indeed, says, And so shall we ever be with the Lord, meaning after the general resurrection." John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith, 4:14 (A.D. 743).
From- The Early Church Fathers



-- Yet another mammoth cut-and-paste that Neophyte states he never posts. ;)




Still waiting on your response to these.

-- In Roman Catholicism, Mary rather than Christ is "the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces." [sub]Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, no 12. [/sub]

-- "And from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that Our Saviour purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood." [sub]Ad Diem, no 14.[/sub]

-- The Second Vatican Council said that Mary's role as co-mediator was that her mediation "...does not hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ but on the contrary fosters it." [sub]Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, no 60.[/sub]

-- "God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary." Pope Pius IX, Ubi Primum

-- "Every grace granted to men has three successive steps: By God is is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us." [sub]Pope Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper [/sub]

-- Christ is the source of blessing, but Mary is the channel: "...every blessing that comes to us from the Almighty God comes to us through the hands of Our Lady" [sub]Pope Pius XI, Ingracescentibus Malis.[/sub] This includes salvation. Mary is said to be the "Mediatrix of our salvation" [sub]Pope Leo XIII Jucunda Semper,[/sub] and the "instrument and guardian of our salvation" [sub]Pope Leo XIII, Parta Humano Generi. [/sub]

-- "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." [sub]Pope Leo XIII , Adiutricem Populi[/sub]



Mungo took a stab at one, but the Catholic Catechism itself undermined him:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph 6. MARY - MOTHER OF CHRIST, MOTHER OF THE CHURCH

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[sup]510[/sup]

The definition of a "Mediatrix" is a female mediator. He is left splitting hairs about mediator vs. co-mediator.






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Mungo

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Mungo took a stab at one, but the Catholic Catechism itself undermined him:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph 6. MARY - MOTHER OF CHRIST, MOTHER OF THE CHURCH

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[sup]510[/sup]

The definition of a "Mediatrix" is a female mediator. He is left splitting hairs about mediator vs. co-mediator.

This is the arrogance of Protestants. They think they can impose their interpetations of words onto Catholics. When Catholic documents us words they have to be understood in the way that they were meant, not in the way that Protestants would like to interpret them. When the Catechism uses the word Mediatrix it means Mediatrix and that was the word used by Vatican II.

The Latin in Lumen Gentium is Mediatricis invocatur. Mediatrix therefore is a translation of a phrase not just a simple word.

Now I forgot what Latin I learnt a long time ago but my guess is that Mediatricis is the female of Mediator and invocatur is a qualification, particularly as the document keeps stressing that any mediation of Mary is not to be compared to the mediation of Christ..

I found this in a list of Church Latin words:
invoco -are, to call in, call upon for help, invoke
- which is intercession

To translate Mediatrix as co-mediator seems to me to be profoundly wrong.





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neophyte

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John refers to Mary as "woman" eight times in Revelation 12. As the first Eve brought death to all of her children through disobedience and heeding the words of the ancient serpent, the devil, the "New Eve" of Revelation 12 brings life and salvation to all of her children through her obedience. The same "serpent" who deceived the original woman of Genesis is revealed, in Revelation 12, to fail in his attempt to overcome this new woman. The New Eve overcomes the serpent and as a result, "The serpent is angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God, and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:17). If Mary is the New Eve and New Testament fulfillments are always more glorious than their Old Testament antecedents, it would be unthinkable for Mary to be conceived in sin. If she were, she would be inferior to Eve who was created in a perfect state, free from all sin.
 

Axehead

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The definition of a "Mediatrix" is a female mediator. He is left splitting hairs about mediator vs. co-mediator.

Mungo's disingenuousness insults the intelligence of the readers.

The RCC clearly calls her Mediatrix, but says the definition is not what it really is.

I stand by my quotes and here is more of the same from EWTN.


To begin, we can say without doubt that the title "Mediatrix" is justified, and applies to all graces for certain, by her cooperation in acquiring all graces on Calvary.

The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:


... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.
This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer...."

We notice that Vatican II did not add the words "of all graces." However, as many papal texts point out, Mary's role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII,Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.

Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having "practically limitless power." St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the "neck" connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said "Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion." These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.


Church Teaching on Mary as Mediatrix of (All) Graces

Compiled by Fr. William G. Most
1) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Supremi Apostolatus officio. Sept 1, 1883. ASS 16, 1883. 1113.
We judge nothing more powerful and better for this purpose than by religion and devotion to deserve well of the great Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, who is the treasurer [sequestra] of our peace with God, and the mediatrix [administra] of graces....

2) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Superiore anno, August 30, 1884. ASS 17, 1884. 49.
... may He hear the prayers of those who beseech through her, whom He Himself willed to be the mediatrix [administram] of graces.

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.
Is this not unadulterated blasphemy?

4) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Iucunda semper, Sept 8, 1984. ASS 27, 1894. 179.
... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.' [Internal quote from S. Bernardine, Sermon on Nativity of B. V. M. n. 6.]

5) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Adiutricem populi, Sept 5, 1895, ASS 28, 1895, 130.
For thereupon, by divine plan, she so began to watch over the Church, so to be near and to favor us as a Mother, that she who had been the minister [administra] of the mystery of human redemption, was equally the minister [administra] of the grace to be given from it for all time, practically immeasurable power being given to her.

6) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Diuturni temporis spatium, Sept 5, 1898, ASS 31, 1898, 146.
For from her, as in a must abundant conduit, the drafts of heavenly graces are given: '... in her hands are the treasures of the mercies of the Lord'; for 'God wills that she be the principle of all good things.' [Internal quotes are from St. John Damascene, Series I De Nativitate Virginis and St. Irenaeus, Against Valentinus III. 33.].

7) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Diuturni temporis spatium, Sept 5, 1898, ASS 31, 1898, 147.
'God wills her to be the principle of all good things.' [Citing St. John Damascene, Series I De nativitate Virginis.]

8) Leo XIII, Parta humano generi, Apostolic Letter, Sept 8, 1901, ASS 34, 1901, 195.
So may the most powerful Virgin Mother, who once 'cooperated in love that the faithful might be born in the Church', be even now the means and mediatrix of our salvation. [Citing St. Augustine,De sancta Virginitate 6.]

9) St. Pius X, Encyclical, Ad diem illum, Feb. 2, 1904, AAS 36, 1904. 453-54.
Hence that never dissociated manner of life and labors of the Mother and the Son... . there stood by the Cross of Jesus His Mother, not merely occupied in looking at the dreadful sight, but even rejoicing that 'her only Son was being offered for the salvation of the human race; and so did she suffer, with Him, that if it had been possible, she would have much more gladly suffered herself all the torments that her Son underwent' [St. Bonaventure I. Sent. d, 48, ad Litt. dub. 4]. Now from this common sharing of will and suffering between Christ and Mary, she 'merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world' [Eadmer, De Excellentia Virginis Mariae, 9] and therefore Dispensatrix of all the gifts which Jesus gained for us by His Death and by His Blood.... But Mary as St. Bernard fittingly remarks [De Aquaeductu 4] is the 'channel' or, even, the neck, through which the body is joined to the head, and likewise through which the head exerts its power and strength on the body. 'For she is the neck of our Head, by which all spiritual gifts are communicated to His Mystical Body.' [St. Bernardine of Siena, Quadrag. De Evangelio aeterno, Sermo X, a. 3. c. 3.]

10) St. Pius X, Litterae Apostolicae, August 27, 1910, AAS 2, 1910, 901.
We, to whom nothing is dearer than that the devotion of the faithful towards the Virgin of Lourdes, the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces, be more and more increased, think we should gladly assent to these wishes.

11) Benedict XV, Litterae Apostolicae, Inter Sodalicia, March 22, 1918, AAS 10, 1918, 182.
... the fact that she was with Him crucified and dying, was in accord with the divine plan. For with her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death. She gave up her Mother's rights over her Son to procure the salvation of mankind, and to appease the divine justice, she, as much as she could, immolated her Son, so that one can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race. (Again complete and utter blasphemy) But if for this reason, every kind of grace we receive from the treasury of the redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same Sorrowful Virgin, everyone can see that a holy death should be expected from her, since it is precisely by this gift that the work of the Redemption is effectively and permanently completed in each one ... further, there is a most constant belief among the faithful, proved by long experience, that as many as employ the same Virgin as Patron, will not at all perish forever.

12) Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334.
For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].

13) Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Galliam, Ecclesiae filiam, March 2, 1922, AAS 14, 1922 186.
She, the Virgin Mother, [is] the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces with God.

14) Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Exstat in civitate, Feb. 1, 1924, AAS 16 1924, 152.
It is clear that many Roman Pontiffs ... have stirred up devotion among the nations to the most clement Mother, the Virgin Mary, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces with God.

15) Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Cognitum sane, Jan 14, 1926, AAS 18, 1926, 213.
We, to whom nothing is dearer than that the devotion of the Christian people be aroused more and more towards the Virgin who is the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces with God, think we should grant these wishes.

16) Pius XI, Encyclical, Ingravescentibus malis, Sept 29, 1937, AAS 29, 1927, 380.
... we know also that all things are imparted to us from God the Greatest and Best, through the hands of the Mother of God.

17) Pius XII, Encyclical, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943, AAS 35, 1943, 248.
May she, then, the most holy Mother of all the members of Christ, to whose Immaculate Heart we have confidently consecrated all people ... ask earnestly that most abundant streams of graces from the lofty Head may flow down on all the members of the Mystical body without interruption.

18) Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima, Bendito seia, May 13, 1946, AAS 38, 19465, 266.
... having been associated, as Mother and Minister, with the King of martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption, she is always associated, with a practically measureless power, in the distribution of the graces that derive from the Redemption.... And her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.

19) John XXIII, Epistle to Cardinal Agaganian, Legate to Marian Congress in Saigon, Jan 31, 1959, AAS 51, 1959, 88.
For the faithful can do nothing more fruitful and salutary than to win for themselves the most powerful patronage of the Immaculate Virgin, so that by this most sweet Mother, there may be opened to them, all the treasures of the divine Redemption, and so they may have life, and have it more abundantly. (this verse is suppose to be about Jesus) Did not the Lord will that we have everything through Mary?"

Discorsi II, 66.
"From her hands hope for all graces.

20) Vatican II, Lumen gentium ## 61-62.
... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace. This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer....

COMMENT: Although Vatican II did not add the words "of all graces," it added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima. Leo XIII in that text spoke of her, as we saw above, as having "practically limitless power." St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the "neck" connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said "Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.


Compiled by Father William G. Most

Axehead
 

Mungo

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Mungo's disingenuousness insults the intelligence of the readers.

The RCC clearly calls her Mediatrix, but says the definition is not what it really is.


Axehead

I haven't said the Catholic Church doesn't call her Mediatrix. Don't pretend I did. That is very deceitful.

I'm suggesting Mediatrix is not what you want to define it to be.

Nothing you have quoted calls Mary co-mediator

Please explain why the Latin (the authoritative source for all translations) says Mediatricis invocatur.
 

Axehead

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I haven't said the Catholic Church doesn't call her Mediatrix. Don't pretend I did. That is very deceitful.

I'm suggesting Mediatrix is not what you want to define it to be.

Nothing you have quoted calls Mary co-mediator

Please explain why the Latin (the authoritative source for all translations) says Mediatricis invocatur.

Here Mungo, let me help you.

As you can see there is a movement within the RCC to approve of Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediator (Mediatrix).

[font=Droid Sans']Dr. Mark Miravalle – [/font]How is Mary the “Spiritual Mother of Humanity”?
[font=Droid Sans']Fr. Peter Damien Felhner – “Why We Need the 5th Marian Dogma Now”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Msgr. Arthur B. Calkins – “The Proposed Marian Dogma: the What and the Why”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Dr. Mark Miravalle – “Are You Afraid of Mary Co-Redemptrix?”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Dr. Richard Russell – “Messages of War and Peace in the Lady of All Nations”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “You Must Petition the Holy Father for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “The Outcome is Already Assured”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Theologians; Fight for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Petition the Holy Father that True Peace May Come”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “You Must Petition the Holy Father for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “The Outcome is Already Assured”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Theologians; Fight for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Petition the Holy Father that True Peace May Come”[/font]
 

neophyte

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Here Mungo, let me help you.

As you can see there is a movement within the RCC to approve of Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediator (Mediatrix).

[font=Droid Sans']Dr. Mark Miravalle – [/font]How is Mary the “Spiritual Mother of Humanity”?
[font=Droid Sans']Fr. Peter Damien Felhner – “Why We Need the 5th Marian Dogma Now”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Msgr. Arthur B. Calkins – “The Proposed Marian Dogma: the What and the Why”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Dr. Mark Miravalle – “Are You Afraid of Mary Co-Redemptrix?”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Dr. Richard Russell – “Messages of War and Peace in the Lady of All Nations”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “You Must Petition the Holy Father for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “The Outcome is Already Assured”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Theologians; Fight for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Petition the Holy Father that True Peace May Come”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “You Must Petition the Holy Father for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “The Outcome is Already Assured”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Theologians; Fight for this Dogma”[/font]
[font=Droid Sans']Lady of All Nations – “Petition the Holy Father that True Peace May Come”[/font]

Neither Taking Away nor Adding Anything
[T]he Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.
No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 62
 

Mungo

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The list you gave me I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

None of them are official statements by the Catholic Church

There is a movement pushing for a 5th Marian Doctrine but that doesn't mean such a thing is likely to happen. The whole thing is mixed up with a false visionary called Ida Peerman.

On another forum a couple of years ago a Catholic posted that he had enquired of the Vatican about this "Co-Redemtrix" title and was sent a copy of the Declaraion of the Theological Commission of the International Mariological Congress celebrated in Czestochowa; it was published in the English edition of L' Observatore Romano on 4 June 1997.

It stated:

The titles, as proposed, are ambiguous, as they can be understood in very different ways. Furthermore, the theological direction taken by the Second Vatican Council, which did not wish to define any of these titles, should not be abandoned. The Second Vatican Council did not used the title "Coredemptrix" and uses "Mediatrix" and "Advocate" in a very moderate way (cf Lumen gentium, n. 62).... (snip) : In the first decades of this century the Holy See entrusted the possibility of its definition to three different commissions, the result of which was that the Holy See decided to set the question aside.


Co-Redemtrix isn't going to happen..
 

Axehead

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The list you gave me I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

None of them are official statements by the Catholic Church

There is a movement pushing for a 5th Marian Doctrine but that doesn't mean such a thing is likely to happen. The whole thing is mixed up with a false visionary called Ida Peerman.

On another forum a couple of years ago a Catholic posted that he had enquired of the Vatican about this "Co-Redemtrix" title and was sent a copy of the Declaraion of the Theological Commission of the International Mariological Congress celebrated in Czestochowa; it was published in the English edition of L' Observatore Romano on 4 June 1997.

It stated:

The titles, as proposed, are ambiguous, as they can be understood in very different ways. Furthermore, the theological direction taken by the Second Vatican Council, which did not wish to define any of these titles, should not be abandoned. The Second Vatican Council did not used the title "Coredemptrix" and uses "Mediatrix" and "Advocate" in a very moderate way (cf Lumen gentium, n. 62).... (snip) : In the first decades of this century the Holy See entrusted the possibility of its definition to three different commissions, the result of which was that the Holy See decided to set the question aside.


Co-Redemtrix isn't going to happen..

In the early 1990s Professor Mark Miravalle of the Franciscan University of Steubenville and author of the book Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate launched a popular petition to urge Pope John Paul II to use Papal infallibility to declare Mary as Co-Redemptrix. More than six million signatures were gathered from 148 countries, including those of Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Cardinal John O'Connor of New York, and 41 other cardinals and 550 bishops.

It will happen. This is the way the RCC works. They spend years, even decades slowing convincing people and then when they are confident they have enough support, they infallibly announce the new dogma.

Axehead
 

Foreigner

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The list you gave me I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

None of them are official statements by the Catholic Church

-- I see.....
Direct quotes from:
- Pope Leo XIII
- Pope Pius IX
- Pope Pius X
- The Second Vatican Council, and
- The Catholic Catechism
...................................................are "not official statements by the Catholic Church." :D

So then tell me......why are quotes like this acceptable when YOU make them?
LOL Never mind. But thanks for the new answer. You should expect to see it in the future.






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aspen

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I think it is interesting how the Religious people love to keep score......
 

Axehead

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Ok, so let's keep in mind that we are talking about a "Goddess, That Man Has Made" out of a simple woman that needed salvation and the Holy Spirit just as much as we do.
 

Axehead

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Mary, as defined by the Catholic Church is almost indistinguishable from the Lord Jesus Christ in excellency, power and achievement. They differ only in degree.

The Scriptures state that Jesus Christ was without sin (1 John 3:5). According to the RCC, Mary was " preserved free from all stain of original sin" (966). The Church teaches that when speaking of sin, "the holy Virgin Mary is not even to be mentioned" (Deus).

Jesus pleased the Father in all that He did (Luke 3:22). And Mary, according to the Romish Church, "...in her was the Father well pleased with singular delight" (Deus).

As Jesus suffered and died for our redemption, Mary also "...suffered in the very depths of her soul with His most bitter sufferings and His torments... [and] in her heart died with Him, stabbed by the sword of sorrow" (Jucunda).

The RCC goes on to say that because of their physical union, "The blood of Christ shed for our sake and those members in which He offers to His Father the wounds He received as the price of our liberty are no other than the flesh and blood of the Virgin..." (Fidentum).

Thus, "...As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother’s rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race" (SODALICIA)

"...and has crushed the poisonous head of the serpent" (Deus).

The Catholic Church states that, "Mary was bodily resurrected even as Christ" (Munificentissimus).

She "...suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death..." (Munificentissimus).

She was therefore "... raised body and soul to heavenly glory and likened to her risen Son in anticipation of the future lot of all the just..." (Credo).

Once in heaven, the Church says that Mary was "...exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords..." (Lumen Gentium).

Now, even as Christ sits at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:13), "Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son..." (Ad Diem).

Thus began "...her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ..." (Munificentissimus).

Her dominion is the same as His; she is "made Queen of heaven and earth by the Lord, exalted above all choirs of angels and saints, and standing at the right hand of her only [55a] Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother's prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused" (Reginam).

From this exalted height, Roman Catholicism teaches that Mary serves the Church as "...Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (Lumen Gentium).

Look carefully, she is fulfilling the roles attributed in Scripture to the Father (James 1:17), the Son (1 John 2:1, 1 Tim 2:5) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16).

Just like the Lord Jesus, the Roman Catholic Church calls Mary, the:

Inexpressible Gift of the Almighty (722)
Morning Star (Litany)
Refuge of Sinners (Litany)
Our Lady of Perpetual Help (Litany)
The Instrument and Guardian of our Salvation (Litany)

The Church promises that "all those who seek Mary's protection will be saved for all eternity" (Parta Humano)

Similar comparisons are made between God the Father and Mary.
Mary is our Mother (God our Father)
Jesus is the "only begotten son of His Mother"
Virgin Most Powerful (God Almighty)
...the Mighty Mother of God
Seat of Wisdom (God is the source of all wisdom, James 1:5)
Mother of the Living (God is the God of the Living, Mark 12:27)
Mary is the Mother of Mercy (God is the Father of mercies, 2 Cor 1:3)

This is the Mary of Roman Catholicism which has been exalted above every created being and has been assigned attributes, powers and titles that formerly ONLY belonged to God.

This is the Goddess, Man Has Made.

Axehead
 

aspen

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Posting one sided comments about doctrine you do not understand and have obviously been conditioned to believe, means very little to me Axehead. If I wanted to spread half truths about the Reformation without opposition, I guess I would spend the majority of my time preaching to the choir on Catholic boards. Instead of trying to impress the few like-minded people that bother to read this thread, why not agree to a real conversation about the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism? Interested? [email protected].

If not, continue to waste your time trying to impress your cronies - after all, you've got the refs in your pocket and the home field advantage
 

Axehead

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Posting one sided comments about doctrine you do not understand and have obviously been conditioned to believe, means very little to me Axehead. If I wanted to spread half truths about the Reformation without opposition, I guess I would spend the majority of my time preaching to the choir on Catholic boards. Instead of trying to impress the few like-minded people that bother to read this thread, why not agree to a real conversation about the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism? Interested? [email protected].

If not, continue to waste your time trying to impress your cronies - after all, you've got the refs in your pocket and the home field advantage

Aspen,

Please give us a little credit for being able to understand plain english and recognize that you have elevated Mary above every created being with attributes of God.

The Reformation stopped short, Aspen. But it accomplished what God wanted at the time. God is not done with His Church and He is still recovering truth for her.

Axehead