Two In The Field One Is Taken One Is Left

veteran · Dec 11, 2012

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Considering the rapture occurs immediately after the resurrection, it entails both. You can deny the rapture all you want but it's only denying scripture. Heaven is a place and the destination for God's church. We may visit the earth from time to time but the earth is for the Israeli remnant and the rest of humanity that survives the sheep and goat judgment. We have no need to be here at all except for those who may rule and reign with Christ and even then a 24/7 presence on earth will be hardly necessary.

There it is, the 'I am going to live in Heaven and not on earth' deception.

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(KJV)

That encampment of Israel is about the events of Ezekiel 40 forward. It's the Zadok (Just) there in Ezekiel 44 that reign with Christ and are His priests. We reign ON THE EARTH as Christ's kings and priests according to Rev.5:10.

You have left God's Word on all that, and have instead chosen to follow a doctrine of men with the living in Heaven off the earth ideas.

Alanforchrist · Dec 11, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, teleiosis.

Sorry, but the "blessed hope" is NOT the rapture! It is the RESURRECTION! It is from Titus 2:13 referring back to Titus 1:2! And, in Titus 2:13, Paul said we were to look for or anticipate both the "blessed hope" (the Happy Assurance) of the resurrection and the "glorious appearing of the Great God and of our Rescuer, Yeshua` haMashiach!" Those words "glorious appearing" (Greek: "epifaneian tees doxees" = "the bright conspicuousness") are not about some "secret rapture!" They are about the SECOND COMING!

The,"Blessed hope", Is in conection with the pre-trib rapture, Not the resurrection.
Please keep the Bible in it's right context.

Trekson · Dec 11, 2012

Hi Retro, Your words:"That encampment of Israel is about the events of Ezekiel 40 forward. It's the Zadok (Just) there in Ezekiel 44 that reign with Christ and are His priests. We reign ON THE EARTH as Christ's kings and priests according to Rev.5:10."

The story of the sons of Zadok are from history but because of their faithfulness, their family will head the line of Levites after the Babylonian captivity. The sons of Zadok are Levites. Imo, Ez. 40-46 are about the second temple, not the millennial one.

Yes, some will reign upon the earth as Christ now reigns over the earth but when it only takes a split second to go from here to there, we won't have to "dwell" on the earth to accomplish that.

veteran · Dec 12, 2012

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Your words:"That encampment of Israel is about the events of Ezekiel 40 forward. It's the Zadok (Just) there in Ezekiel 44 that reign with Christ and are His priests. We reign ON THE EARTH as Christ's kings and priests according to Rev.5:10."

The story of the sons of Zadok are from history but because of their faithfulness, their family will head the line of Levites after the Babylonian captivity. The sons of Zadok are Levites. Imo, Ez. 40-46 are about the second temple, not the millennial one.

Yes, some will reign upon the earth as Christ now reigns over the earth but when it only takes a split second to go from here to there, we won't have to "dwell" on the earth to accomplish that.

None of the events of Ezekiel 40 through 48 have ever... happened yet in history. You're dreaming if you think they have.

John_8:32 · Dec 12, 2012

The,"Blessed hope", Is in conection with the pre-trib rapture, Not the resurrection.
Please keep the Bible in it's right context.

The scripture does not support a "near miss" idea anywhere.

Alanforchrist · Dec 12, 2012

John_8:32 said:
The scripture does not support a "near miss" idea anywhere.

If you mean the pre-trib rapture,
There are to many scriptures that teach the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.
2 Thess 2, being one of them.

The Church has to go before the anti-christ can come, As 1 Thess 2 says.
Jesus is coming back for a glorious people, People who are just like Jesus, And if the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus,
How in the world is he going to hadle millions just like Jesus??. He can't, Thats why the Church has to go before the devil can start his tribulation period.
I for one know I have authority over the devil, And he certainly won't overcome me.

Both Jesus and Paul,[Inspired by God], Said we aren't apointed tho wrath.

If you meant the Church is raptured before the tribulation period, And we won't go through the tribulation,
Then you are right, There is no scriptures to support the Church goes through the tribulation period.

John_8:32 · Dec 12, 2012

If you mean the pre-trib rapture,
There are to many scriptures that teach the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.
2 Thess 2, being one of them.

The Church has to go before the anti-christ can come, As 1 Thess 2 says.
Jesus is coming back for a glorious people, People who are just like Jesus, And if the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus,
How in the world is he going to hadle millions just like Jesus??. He can't, Thats why the Church has to go before the devil can start his tribulation period.
I for one know I have authority over the devil, And he certainly won't overcome me.

Both Jesus and Paul,[Inspired by God], Said we aren't apointed tho wrath.

If you meant the Church is raptured before the tribulation period, And we won't go through the tribulation,
Then you are right, There is no scriptures to support the Church goes through the tribulation period.

*******************************************************************

My reply, since this will not let me edit it to fix the quote problem...

I do not see that at all in 2 Ths 2. It simply speaks of the man of sin, here and a delusion that causes a falling away. One cannot fall away from something unless they are or were of it at one time. So to fall away from the church, one must be in the church. This man of sin will not be in some place the church is raptured to, but will be here on earth, where the church is.

Where is her place?

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

wilderness:

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

Hard for me to see this as Heaven. It says a desert place, a waste place. It is the church fleeing to a place of protection, her Place of Safety.

As far as the tribulation, seems that some are to go through the tribulation...

Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Water here being a type of armies.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How come these guys aren't raptured?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

This cannot be talking about a rapture, why would you need anything from your house? Why would you care if the rapture took place in the winter?

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

None, not a one. The tribulation must be cut short or none would be saved. Kinda precludes a band of merry men in heaven doesn't it?

Hmmm, this will not let me fix the quote problem.

Alanforchrist · Dec 12, 2012

John_8:32 said:
If you mean the pre-trib rapture,
There are to many scriptures that teach the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.
2 Thess 2, being one of them.

The Church has to go before the anti-christ can come, As 1 Thess 2 says.
Jesus is coming back for a glorious people, People who are just like Jesus, And if the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus,
How in the world is he going to hadle millions just like Jesus??. He can't, Thats why the Church has to go before the devil can start his tribulation period.
I for one know I have authority over the devil, And he certainly won't overcome me.

Both Jesus and Paul,[Inspired by God], Said we aren't apointed tho wrath.

If you meant the Church is raptured before the tribulation period, And we won't go through the tribulation,
Then you are right, There is no scriptures to support the Church goes through the tribulation period.

*******************************************************************

My reply, since this will not let me edit it to fix the quote problem...

I do not see that at all in 2 Ths 2. It simply speaks of the man of sin, here and a delusion that causes a falling away. One cannot fall away from something unless they are or were of it at one time. So to fall away from the church, one must be in the church. This man of sin will not be in some place the church is raptured to, but will be here on earth, where the church is.

Where is her place?

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

wilderness:

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

Hard for me to see this as Heaven. It says a desert place, a waste place. It is the church fleeing to a place of protection, her Place of Safety.

As far as the tribulation, seems that some are to go through the tribulation...

Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Water here being a type of armies.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How come these guys aren't raptured?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

This cannot be talking about a rapture, why would you need anything from your house? Why would you care if the rapture took place in the winter?

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

None, not a one. The tribulation must be cut short or none would be saved. Kinda precludes a band of merry men in heaven doesn't it?

Hmmm, this will not let me fix the quote problem.

Click to expand...

Just because you don't see the pre-trib rapture in 2 Thess 2, It doesn't mean it isn't there.
The, "Falling way", Is the pre-trib rapture, The Greek meaning for, "Falling away", Is, [A departing, A withdrawing].
PLEASE NOTE, It doesn't say," A FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH".. Does it??. NO..No..

Then v6--7 says the Church is holding the anti-christ back,
And will do until it is taken out of the way, [The pre-trib rapture].
The v8 says, Then the wicked one came with his wickedness..
V13 says we will be delivered from the tribulation.
V14 says we will be like Jesus having His character and power, Just before we are raptured.
V 16 says we have an everlasting consolation, Comfort and hope.
So first the pre-trib rapture, Then the anti-christ can come.

Trekson · Dec 12, 2012

Hi Alan, Your words: "PLEASE NOTE, It doesn't say," A FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH".. Does it??. NO..No.."

Sorry Alan but the word "apostasia" means a departure from the faith. There's no getting around it. Unlike most here I do believe in a rapture but my eschatology has changed from pre-trib to pre-wrath. Scripture just doesn't in any way, shape or form support pre-trib rapture theology.

veteran · Dec 12, 2012

Alanforchrist said:
Just because you don't see the pre-trib rapture in 2 Thess 2, It doesn't mean it isn't there.

Because Apostle Paul is explaining in 2 Thess.2 that BEFORE Christ's coming and our gathering will happen... 1) a great falling away must happen, and 2) the son of perdition, man of sin must be revealed, then that is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of a Pre-trib Rapture idea.

You're just making what's called an 'affirmation', the idea of just saying something is so as a hope that it will come true. There is no Pre-trib Rapture idea in the 2 Thess.2 Scripture, nor anywhere else in God's Word, the difference being that's it's easy to prove there's not.

teleiosis · Dec 12, 2012

Alanforchrist said:
If you mean the pre-trib rapture, There are to many scriptures that teach the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.
2 Thess 2, being one of them.

If you meant the Church is raptured before the tribulation period, And we won't go through the tribulation,
Then you are right, There is no scriptures to support the Church goes through the tribulation period.

Paul’s sequence of events in 2Th 2:1-8 can be summarized in bullet form in this manner:

The rebellion occurs
Opposition and exaltation
The “one” removed from the midst
Setting himself up as God
The man of lawlessness revealed
Jesus comes
Our being gathering to Him
Dead in Christ
Those who are alive and are left

[*]The man of lawlessness is undone
[*]He is done away with entirely.

The "Elect" go through the Great Tribulation: Mt 24:21-22.
The Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation: Rev 7:14.

You'll have to change the definitions of each to make both of them "not the Church."

Alanforchrist · Dec 13, 2012

John_8:32 said:
If you mean the pre-trib rapture,
There are to many scriptures that teach the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.
2 Thess 2, being one of them.

The Church has to go before the anti-christ can come, As 1 Thess 2 says.
Jesus is coming back for a glorious people, People who are just like Jesus, And if the devil couldn't deal with ONE Jesus,
How in the world is he going to hadle millions just like Jesus??. He can't, Thats why the Church has to go before the devil can start his tribulation period.
I for one know I have authority over the devil, And he certainly won't overcome me.

Both Jesus and Paul,[Inspired by God], Said we aren't apointed tho wrath.

If you meant the Church is raptured before the tribulation period, And we won't go through the tribulation,
Then you are right, There is no scriptures to support the Church goes through the tribulation period.

*******************************************************************

My reply, since this will not let me edit it to fix the quote problem...

I do not see that at all in 2 Ths 2. It simply speaks of the man of sin, here and a delusion that causes a falling away. One cannot fall away from something unless they are or were of it at one time. So to fall away from the church, one must be in the church. This man of sin will not be in some place the church is raptured to, but will be here on earth, where the church is.

Where is her place?

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

wilderness:

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

Hard for me to see this as Heaven. It says a desert place, a waste place. It is the church fleeing to a place of protection, her Place of Safety.

As far as the tribulation, seems that some are to go through the tribulation...

Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Water here being a type of armies.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How come these guys aren't raptured?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

This cannot be talking about a rapture, why would you need anything from your house? Why would you care if the rapture took place in the winter?

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

None, not a one. The tribulation must be cut short or none would be saved. Kinda precludes a band of merry men in heaven doesn't it?

Hmmm, this will not let me fix the quote problem.

Click to expand...

[1]Those who go though the tribulation, And get reptured in mid trib, Are the Jews, The people that get saved during the tribulation period, And matbe the Christian backsliders.

[2]The "Elect" In Matt 24, Are the "Elect Jews", Not the elect Church.

Trekson said:
Hi Alan, Your words: "PLEASE NOTE, It doesn't say," A FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH".. Does it??. NO..No.."

Sorry Alan but the word "apostasia" means a departure from the faith. There's no getting around it. Unlike most here I do believe in a rapture but my eschatology has changed from pre-trib to pre-wrath. Scripture just doesn't in any way, shape or form support pre-trib rapture theology.

The Bible doesn't say, "Departing from the faith",,DOES IT??. NO.. NO.. People make that mistake
The Actual Greek says, "Apstasia" doesn't mean falling away,
It is made up of two Greek words, And means a, "Departing, A withdrawing".
And putting it in it's right context, It means , "A departure from the earth", Then the tribulation can start.

There are to many scriptures that teach the pre-trib rapture for it not tp be true.

There is one scripture that on it's own proves there has to be pre-trin rapture,
And that is, Jesus said no one will know the time of His coming, But if the Church went trough the tribulation period, We would know exactly when He will come.

If people ever stop tribulating and read the whole Bible, They will see the truth of the pre-trib rapture.

veteran said:
Because Apostle Paul is explaining in 2 Thess.2 that BEFORE Christ's coming and our gathering will happen... 1) a great falling away must happen, and 2) the son of perdition, man of sin must be revealed, then that is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of a Pre-trib Rapture idea.

You're just making what's called an 'affirmation', the idea of just saying something is so as a hope that it will come true. There is no Pre-trib Rapture idea in the 2 Thess.2 Scripture, nor anywhere else in God's Word, the difference being that's it's easy to prove there's not.

The very reason Paul wrote 2 Thesss 2, To them, Was because some of your relatives were telling them they had to go through the tribulation, And was troubling them.
So Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, To tell them that they will be raptured, pre-trib, "Falling away, KJV", Which means, "A departing".
A departing from the earth, NOT THE FAITH.

teleiosis said:
Paul’s sequence of events in 2Th 2:1-8 can be summarized in bullet form in this manner:

The rebellion occurs

Opposition and exaltation

The “one” removed from the midst

Setting himself up as God

The man of lawlessness revealed

Jesus comes

Our being gathering to Him
Dead in Christ

Those who are alive and are left

[*]The man of lawlessness is undone
[*]He is done away with entirely.

The "Elect" go through the Great Tribulation: Mt 24:21-22.
The Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation: Rev 7:14.

You'll have to change the definitions of each to make both of them "not the Church."

Correction.
[1]Pau'ls sequence is,
[A]The pre-trib rapture, The "Falling away", Means a departing from the earth, Not the faith.
Then the anti-christ will come.

[2]There is no rapture when Jesus comes back physically.
There is no resurrection when Jesus comes back physically.
So the rapture and the resurrected saints has to be pre-trib when Jesus comes Spiritually for us.

[3]You are confusing the "Elect Jews" in Matt 24, With the "Elect Church",
Jesus goes into Matt 25, And tells us about the pre-trib rapture.

Rocky Wiley · Dec 13, 2012

Love123 said:
TWO IN THE FIELD ONE IS TAKEN ONE IS LEFT...IS THIS RAPTURE?........(No)Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other leftThis is not Rapture; this would mean half of the worlds population is taken up in the Rapture.A full half of the worlds population does not believe.This is referring to Judgment.As it was in Noahs day..They were eating and drinking and marrying and working and so forth.Unaware and then the rains came.Judgment.So it will be for the Second Coming of Christ two in the fields..One shall be taken and sent to the millennium ... The other shall perish..This refers to Judgment.... Not Rapture.

Hi Love123,

When reading the Gospels, one needs to get away from thinking that this pertains to Christians, it doesn't. Let us ask these questions and let scripture answer.

Who were the ones that Jesus came to as their Messiah?
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
His own were his chosen, the Jews.

What generation was not going to pass away before he returned?
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the generation was their's.

Who shall be left behind?
Mat 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Jesus was speaking to the great mulitudes that gathered, and said the wicked would be gathered up and burned in their generation.

Was the end of this world natural or spiritual?
In Mat 13:40 the word 'world' was translated from the Greek word 'aion' - properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period
The Messianic period that ended in 70AD, when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed, was a spiritual age, 'the age of Law' and all it represented.

Why answer by scripture?
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
We hear what God says when we read the scripture with understanding.

John_8:32 · Dec 13, 2012

Just because you don't see the pre-trib rapture in 2 Thess 2, It doesn't mean it isn't there.
The, "Falling way", Is the pre-trib rapture, The Greek meaning for, "Falling away", Is, [A departing, withdrawing].
PLEASE NOTE, It doesn't say," A FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH".. Does it??. NO..No..

Then v6--7 says the Church is holding the anti-christ back,
And will do until it is taken out of the way, [The pre-trib rapture].
The v8 says, Then the wicked one came with his wickedness..
V13 says we will be delivered from the tribulation.
V14 says we will be like Jesus having His character and power, Just before we are raptured.
V 16 says we have an everlasting consolation, Comfort and hope.
So first the pre-trib rapture, Then the anti-christ can come.

A rather new approach to...

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I have not heard this verse used this way before, anyhoo, let's look at "falling away". The Greek for "falling away" is...

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Means a departing from the truth. A forsaking of the truth. No, I do not see a rapture here, what I see is a great deception, the one that Christ warned of...

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I am not sure why, but every time I reply to a quote, I insert my thoughts after the end quote but this editor includes them prior to it. I can move my reply to after the end quote (/quote in brackets); but it still includes it. ??? Any help would be appreciated.

afaithfulone4u · Dec 13, 2012

Greetings,

The Two in the field one taken one left is not the rapture, but a call to war. God is calling all the armies of the nations to gather around Israel to see who is willing to do her harm. And the day of armageddon, Great supper/Wedding supper of God where the birds eat the flesh of kings & men. Two women grinding one taken one left. There were no women in the military back in those days, but now there is and even our men are becoming as women(homosexual).
Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
KJV

There are two accounts of Christ's coming in the Bible. One is the rapture of the holy body of Christ where only the ELECT/THEY see him and the angels gather them from the earth and heaven where the souls of the martyr's who are sleeping/resting under the altar and will be awaken first to come with Christ to gather those who remain" Alive" meaning physically and spiritually. They will be caught up in the twinkling of an eye with them and their earthly tents will be changed into their heavenly tabernacle/body/tent.

The second account is when only those who were already CAUGTH UP and are already in heaven will now come with Christ for the wedding supper or Great supper of God or better known as Armageddon, his second coming. Blessed are those who were worthy to be invited TO the supper of the Lamb because they will be UP out of harms way, looking down at the dinner table.

This one is his RETURN, notice all tribes see him, that he is announced with TRUMPET, and the gathering of the elect are from HEAVEN ONLY?

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

This one is apart from sin for his holy elect for the meeting in the air. Notice only THEY see him, and there is no trumpet announcement, and it is from earth and heaven?

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Blessings

ENOCH2010 · Dec 13, 2012

The rapture happens at the same time of the first resurrection,and we can all see in the scripture when this takes place(Rev 20). If not, would one of the pre-tribbers or mid - tribbers please show me which resurrection the rapture accompanies?

teleiosis · Dec 13, 2012

This is an incorrect reading of 2Th 2:1-8.

Alanforchrist said:
[1]Pau'ls sequence is,
[A]The pre-trib rapture, The "Falling away", Means a departing from the earth, Not the faith.
Then the anti-christ will come.

Do not fear. A will not happen and B will not happen UNTIL C happens and D happens.

What is the correct order of those events?

Alan says it's A, B, C, D.
However, the word until sets the second two mentioned events as precursors for the first two Paul mentions.
The real order as it happens chronologically is C, D, and then A, B.

Sorry Alan, your take on things belies your desire to be lifted out before the trouble hits, or an uneducated reading... or both.

-- And apostacy does not mean a physical departure.

Alanforchrist said:

[3]You are confusing the "Elect Jews" in Matt 24, With the "Elect Church",
Jesus goes into Matt 25, And tells us about the pre-trib rapture.

Click to expand...

This is incorrect as well. I knew you had to redefine "Elect" in order to keep your eschatology intact.

Do a word study if you want to count yourself worthy to teach: "elect" when used of people, is ALWAYS used for the Church.

ENOCH2010 said:

The rapture happens at the same time of the first resurrection,and we can all see in the scripture when this takes place(Rev 20). If not, would one of the pre-tribbers or mid - tribbers please show me which resurrection the rapture accompanies?

Click to expand...

The first Resurrection is only complete when all the martyred Saints are "made alive" (new immortal, imperishable bodies).

The resurrection of the (normal, non-martyred) dead happens before the Rapture.
The Rapture involves only those who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation has decimated the Elect to near extinction.

That event happens together before the martyred Saints are made alive.
The resurrection of the dead and the Rapture of the Elect happens after the midpoint abomination and after the shortened Great Tribulation.
The Rapture happens in conjunction with the Day of the Lord as evidenced by Mt 24:29.
The result of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture of the Elect results in the Great Multitude arriving in Heaven with the sixth Seal.

That is not the completion of the first resurrection at that time because the martyred Saints still await the fulfillment of the fifth Seal with the addition of the Two Witnesses - which doesn't happen until the end of the one 'seven.'

Likewise John announces the first resurrection complete after Armageddon is over and those martyred Saints who had to wait, are lifted out from beneath their place below the Altar.

ENOCH2010 · Dec 13, 2012

The first resurrection happens at the second coming of Christ . They're can be only 1 first resurrection, it doesn't combine multiple resurrections over the past or future years

Trekson · Dec 13, 2012

The first resurrection began with Christ and those that came up out of the graves. These are the firstfruits of the first resurrection. The latter fruits of the first resurrection will rise first, then the raptured church will join them at the 7th seal just prior to the beginning of the day of the Lord that begins with the first trumpet. Rev. 20 doesn't depict a resurrection. It is just showing that, the end of the first resurrection will include those who had gone through the great trib. You'll find these arriving in heaven in Rev. 7:9.

teleiosis · Dec 13, 2012

Unfortunately, the Great Multitude and the fifth Seal Martyrs are two different groups.

The first Resurrection happens before the Millennium.
The second Resurrection happens after the Millennium.

The first Resurrection encompasses four different types of people; it's not as simple as you'd like to make it.
- the 144,000
- the dead in Christ
- those who are alive and are still left and never die..
- the martyred

ENOCH2010 said:
The first resurrection happens at the second coming of Christ . They're can be only 1 first resurrection, it doesn't combine multiple resurrections over the past or future years

Jesus shows up on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord happens before the end of the one 'seven.'

The Two Witnesses stay behind and are killed and then taken up at the end of the one 'seven.'

The fifth Seal martyrs await the Two Witnesses to arrive before they can join the Great Multitude who are taken up on the Day of the Lord.

Two In The Field One Is Taken One Is Left

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