Purgatory,as explained from the NT

.

neophyte said:

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in
Paradise,” and most of you Bible Alone adherents apparently interpret
Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour
calendar day they were in, right? Well then, let me ask you a question
about that, All of you Infallible Interpreters of Scripture – how do you
reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary
Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to
the Father? In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus
n Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to
Paradise?

Click to expand...

By comparing Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:27-31 with Luke 23:43 and John 20:17;
it's easily discerned the paradise that the Lord promised the thief wasn't up in
heaven, but rather, down in the netherworld sector where Lazarus and Abraham
were at one time located in Luke 16:19-31.

neophyte said:

In 1 Cor 3:10–15, it talks about how every man’s work will be made
manifest on “the day” – their judgment day – and that every man’s work will
be tested by fire. And that there will be some who have works that will be
burned up, and they will suffer loss, as through fire, yet still be saved.

Click to expand...

The important point to note is that the man himself isn't judged according to
his works as will be the dead mentioned at Rev 20:11-15. In point of fact,
the man at 1Cor 3:10-15 isn't judged at all; only his works are judged; and
even then the works are limited to works performed in a Christian service
capacity rather than his everyday life.

Also "every man" doesn't include the whole of humanity. The passage is
strictly limited to those who build something upon the foundation; which is
Christ. In other words; this particular judgment isn't general; it's limited to
Christians.

Another point to note is that the man himself never comes into contact with
the fire. Only his works do.

Since those are the facts, then it should be obvious to even the most casual
observer that the fire in this situation isn't even literal flame. Testing by fire
merely indicates just how thorough a going-over the Lord is going to give
everything Christians have supposedly done in his name.

Buen Camino
/

neophyte said:

I can give you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, most of you anti-Catholics really don’t want to know, do you? You prefer ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

So, read carefully. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” and most of you Bible Alone adherents apparently interpret Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour calendar day they were in, right? Well then, let me ask you a question about that, All of you Infallible Interpreters of Scripture – how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father? In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

Regarding Purgatory, the word is nowhere in the Bible. But, the word “Trinity” is nowhere in the Bible, either, yet you believe in the Trinity don’t you? Sorry, but there is evidence of Purgatory in the Bible, even if it is not mentioned by name. Here’s a quick biblical question about Purgatory that you will not be able to answer: In 1 Cor 3:10–15, it talks about how every man’s work will be made manifest on “the day” – their judgment day – and that every man’s work will be tested by fire. And that there will be some who have works that will be burned up, and they will suffer loss, as through fire, yet still be saved. So, Mr.& Mrs.Infallible Interpreter of Scripture, where is it that, after a man dies, and his works are judged, that he can suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved? Hell? Nope. One suffers loss as through fire in Hell, but we both know that no one gets out of Hell. Heaven? Nope. Someone who is in Heaven is indeed saved, but we both know no one suffers loss in Heaven. So, where is it that after one dies, one could suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved?

Click to expand...

Wow. I've read 'poisonous' statements before, but this one is dripping with it. You sure you should be addressing people this way, even if they are in the wrong?

Let me make something clear: not all Christians believe in a Trinity, so I wouldn't even try using that as an argument. Because it's only going to work for some people, and even then, it doesn't pose an obstacle.

Now for a definition of purgatory. You seem to neglect posting the correct definition as defined by the Catholic Church. From the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm


Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:
Now tell me, doesn't it sound a bit sus that this doctrine is founded on ANCIENT TRADITION of fallible men? I'll say, I read the 'Scriptural' evidence. It consists of three Scripture verses which I will now proceed to address.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
I could get technical, but I really couldn't be bothered, because simplicity is just as good, if not better. Is there something wrong with the clear message Jesus was conveying? Those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost will NEVER find forgiveness. Jesus made it clear, that there will never be a stage in this life, or that of the beyond, where one will find forgiveness. It's too late once you've done it. Jesus speaks of a finality here, not a mythical place called purgatory where people who aren't so bad go to get cleansed.


1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I believe Webers_home addressed this verse sufficiently. This is not talking about everyone. This is talking about Believers. And it's referring to what they build on Christ. At the end of the day, we can do so many things for Christ, but if it's not what God wanted us to do, it's all for nothing. Sort of like what Paul was speaking of in 1 Cor 13. We can speak with the tongues of angels and so many wonderful things, but without Charity, it availeth nothing.

And now for what is probably the 'strongest' verse in support of purgatory:

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now I don't profess to be a learned man, theologian, or what not. But I would venture to say, that paradise is a waiting place for those ALREADY saved, not for those who are getting purified! This thief on the cross realized who Jesus was, in an enormous leap of faith, requested Jesus to remember him when he entered his kingdom. Notice Jesus reply, you will be with me in paradise. Paradise comes from the greek, referring to a park, an Eden. Jesus' kingdom, is the Eden that we lost. It's what man is searching for even today, but still hasn't found. The only way to regain Eden is through Jesus Christ.
The conclusion couldn't be more obvious. Paradise is not purgatory, because I really doubt that Jesus' kingdom is called purgatory! Jesus' kingdom consists of those who HAVE been saved, not those who MAY get saved.

So where's all the rest of the proof for purgatory? Ummmm, oh, there we are! The 'ancient' church fathers! Like, I-don't-know-this-guy and I-don't-know-this-guy. Man, that feels so reliable. I think purgatory is sitting on some pretty shaky grounds, if its only real foundation are the words of men!

While we're on the topic of Purgatory, does that mean you believe in indulgences as well? Because indulgences play a part in purgatory . . . . :/

neophyte said:

Well then, let me ask you a question about that, All of you Infallible Interpreters of Scripture – how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father? In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

Click to expand...

Forgive me, I didn't read your post thoroughly.

How could the thief be in paradise while Jesus was on earth you ask? I'll tell you how!
Jesus was God. God is omnipresent. Apparently that means that he is present everywhere. When Jesus came to earth, robed in a body of flesh, it didn't mean that he had surrendered his divine nature. He was still God, he still inhabited EVERY nook and crany of the universe, but he also had a human nature.
Jesus was omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, or else he isn't God. If you believe he is God, then you have just got your answer.
Jesus wasn't confined to his physical body. He was everywhere, and poof, there goes your little 'challenge'.

I clicked on this thread hoping it would be a thoughtful discussion. I don't believe I've ever read a more caustic opening post on a discussion board that was supposedly "Christian". The notion that anyone that disagrees with the Catholic church's position on something is "anti-catholic" is mind boggling. My closest friend in the world who led me back to Christ after I had wander far away is Catholic. We don't have to agree on every Christian doctrine, but we certainly would not begin a conversation with each other with anything like this. Please, in the spirit of Jesus, please reconsider how you discuss Him with others. Please.

Noe,

I see much of your content you post is controversial as to position between RCC doctrine and doctrine outside the RCC. You claim to be uneducated. Maybe education is prudent especially on is what God says in His holy writ namely the Bible about Himself, His Son, His nature, everything about Him.

Certain false doctrine falls into apostasy and be well educated on these so that you can correct and reproof, like doctrines against the trinity. Many doctrine arguments cause rifts between brothers when not needed, like doctrines of Mary. I appreciate your honesty in the post, that was brave.

In the Love of Christ.

neophyte said:

I can give you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, most of you anti-Catholics really don’t want to know, do you? You prefer ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

Click to expand...

So, why do you stay here and converse with all of us dolts? Because your real agenda is only to keep waving the Roman Catholic flag and you really don't care for anyone.

Axehead

neophyte said:

I can give you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, most of you anti-Catholics really don’t want to know, do you? You prefer ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

Click to expand...

-- Neophyte, I am sure you are a nice guy, but you really start a thread from scratch using condescension and insults and then complain about how people respond to your posts.

neophyte said:

So, read carefully. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” and most of you Bible Alone adherents apparently interpret Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour calendar day they were in, right? Well then, let me ask you a question about that, All of you Infallible Interpreters of Scripture – how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father? In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

Click to expand...

-- Neophyte, have you heard of Abrahan's Bosom? Read Luke 16, starting at verse 22.
Do you know the purpose that place held? Do you understand that that place is no longer populated? Do you understand why?

neophyte said:

Regarding Purgatory, the word is nowhere in the Bible. But, the word “Trinity” is nowhere in the Bible, either, yet you believe in the Trinity don’t you? Sorry, but there is evidence of Purgatory in the Bible, even if it is not mentioned by name.

Click to expand...

-- Substitute the word "Purgatory" with the the word "Rapture."
Did you not at one time call into question the idea of the Rapture, pointing out that it is not mentioned in the Bible?


The main issue I have with the Catholic view on Purgatory is this
It started as a concept
It was embellished and assumed as fact
It was then decided it is absolutely true
It was then determined that the church can assist you in reducing your time in Purgatory via fianancial means here on earth




.

Brother James said:

Please, in the spirit of Jesus, please reconsider how you discuss Him with others. Please.

Click to expand...

I actually direct this to myself, and all others as well. The level of animosity that comes through in written commnications on discussion boards does not reflect well on the cause of Christ. We all have varying motives in engaging in these discussions. I have different motives, and I'm just one person. I want to learn. I want fellowship with other Christians of all flavors. I also want to be right all the time and have others think I'm smart/wise/superior. Ooops. I don't want to be hostile toward other Christian believers, though, because then I am hostile to Jesus. I also don't want to judge the state of salvation in any other person who expressed faith in Christ. That is not for me to do. We do confront one another on behavior, because that's how we hold one another accoutnable. That was my purpose in commenting in this thread and I hope I was not hostile in the way I did it. We all miss recognizing that in our written posts sometimes I think.

.
One of the Church's earliest difficulties with a purgatory was the issue of
on-going sin. In other words: each new sin committed while interred in a
purgatory would add time to the penitent's original sentence; with the very
real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would
never be released.

Pope Leo X addressed this dilemma in 1520 with his Bull of Exurge Domine,
which states, along with some other things, that death is the termination not
of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure
of final happiness; viz: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are
unable to sin; consequently: they don't commit new sins while undergoing
discipline and purification.

If Leo's Bull is right, then even people in hell are now 100% sinless because
according to Leo death is the termination of sin. But let me interject at this
point and say that if death terminates one's ability to sin, then there would
be no need whatsoever for people to be born of God's Spirit as per
John 3:3-8 --a birth which Jesus testified is a must.

Leo X is wrong. It's not by death that people lose their ability to sin; no, it's
by being born of God.

†. 1 John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Buen Camino
/

Jesus is God himself!
"Baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"
in the name of the Father|Jehovah, Son|Jesus and Holy Spirit|Spirit/HolyGhost/Spirit
Yes they are separate but 1 and the same, they all form to make 1 God and God is Jesus!

The Thief who went to heaven obviously met the Father, because Jesus is 1! Holy Spirit, Jesus and Father are 1.
First of all, we do not know if the thief did go to heaven the moment he died.
But mark this as an assurance that "on that same day, he will be destined to be with Jesus in heaven". Not really meaning he will go to heaven that same day. It is kinda like saying, "your name has been written in the book of life, from today you will be with me in heaven". But when Judgement comes, the man will be in heaven because Jesus already assured him.
Also Jesus -human body- died, but Jesus soul/spirit went to heaven and hades, therefore it is possible that Jesus did take the thief to heaven that same day.


Purgatory is taught by Catholics.
Christians do not teach Purgatory because it doesn't exist in bible.
Trinity is a word of mouth word.

'Using the excuse by saying "we use trinity" yet it is not in the bible, therefore it justifies that we use the purgatory but not in the bible, therefore it's real'.
Neighter does "bible" exist in the bible | scripture/law/word. Therefore we are not justified.

And I was having a discussion about a Catholic guy about Purgatory and he was giving me the same passage scripture you gave me.
This is a doctrine!
In fact I give thanks to our debate because he's the reason I memorise that scripture passage. When someone is spreading a doctrine, they will always use the same scripture to back up their points. Which is no different to people who try to prove we must be water baptised and water saved by always quoting Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21:/

Please provide me another passage that talks about Purgatory, let me guess, will you provide Matthew 5:25-26?

First of all, what 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 talks about is the purification of Fire. This will happen at Judgement Day and it will also be the day Jesus will use Fire to cleanse the Earth and Universe.

verse 15 does make it very puzzling. Because it says, if what you building on your foundation survives, you will be saved.
And it does make sense because John 3:16 says so. "who so ever believes in him WILL NOT PERISH, but have eternal life"

Second when Jesus judges us on our ACCOUNT. The amount of good/love and evil we did, we determine our faith.
But I will not hold my faith and hope on 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, especially verse 15. Because it sounds like even though you believe in Jesus (John 3:16) and whatever you do in your life, you will be saved after enduring the Fire Baptism.

That is why many are still in hell even though they are Christians.
Matthew 7:21 proves this:/

The RCC will draw from the slimmest of opportunities to say something is something (in the Bible) when it is actually nothing.

Once again, a major doctrine such as Purgatory, would have several clear (corroborating) references in the Bible.

Axehead

Xino,

The problem a lot of Catholics run into when they find themselves in a conversation with a Protestant is that the Reformers changed the rules of Christianity 1500 years after Christ AND instead of simply recognizing this fact, Catholics often fall into the trap of trying to fit Catholicism into a Protestant box. Catholicism does not follow sola scriptura, for example, because Catholicism is not Protestant, not because Catholicism isnt Christian.

Protestantism came out of Catholicism - claiming otherwise is like America claiming that we have no connection to Britain; instead, America actually existed before Britain and in fact, Britain is really a corruption of the American way of government.

Protestant demands for Catholics:

1. Prove to our satisfaction that Catholicism follows Sola Scriptura - if you cannot you are not Christian

2. Ignore all Church history that does not recognize a shadow Protestant movement that existed alongside of Catholicism

3. Ignore all instances of Catholic practices in the Early Church because it was all made up by Roman Catholic leaders hundreds of years later.

4. Protestantism is older than Catholicism

5. Protestants don't really exist - Christians who do not belong to the Catholic Church can call themselves anything they want and deny any of the history that is connected to the Reformation movement - they are free agents.

6. Catholics are responsible for all of their history - including all Protestant interpretations of history.


If Catholics do not play by these Protestant rules they are either

1. Arrogant
2. Ignorant
3. Not Christian
4. All of the above.

So remember, when a Catholic doesn't give you the RIGHT answer - you guys play by different rules.

.
Since there are no passages in the Holy Bible that clearly, and without
ambiguity, attest to the existence of a purgatory in the afterlife; theologians
have taken to appropriating passages that allude to a purgatory; viz: that
suggest a purgatory. A really cute specimen is located in one of the
apocryphal books

In 2Mcc 12:38-46 a Jewish military commander named Judas Maccabeus
made an attempt to atone for his dead soldiers' pagan amulets which he
believed is a crime against God for Jews to wear. So Judas passed the hat
among his surviving men and collected about 2,000 silver drachmas which
were sent to Jerusalem intended for a sacrifice to expiate his dead men's sin
so that it wouldn't jeopardize their resurrection.

Although his heart was in the right place; what Judas did was itself a
violation of the very Law that he sought to appease. There are no sacrifices
stipulated in Moses' covenanted law for expiating the sins that people take
with them over to the afterlife.

So then, Judas' sacrifice was a man-made innovation, which is seriously
curse-worthy because the very Law he sought to appease makes it a crime
to either amend, embellish, add to, revise, edit, upgrade, update, or subtract
from Moses' covenanted law.

†. Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take
anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God
that I enjoin upon you.

†. Deut 5:29-30 . . Be careful, then, to do as the Lord your God has
commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the
path that the Lord your God has enjoined upon you, so that you may thrive
and that it may go well with you, and that you may long endure in the land
you are to possess.

†. Deut 26:16 . .The Lord your God commands you this day to follow these
decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all
your soul.

It's important that one play by the rules and not make up their own as they
go along.

†. Ps 119:8-12 . .Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking
heed thereto according to thy word. With my whole heart have I sought
thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

So then, anyone who follows Judas Maccabeus' example falls under the
Law's curse same as he did.

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Law and
observe them.

FAQ : How can you doubt the truth of 2Mcc 12:38-46? It's in the Holy Bible!

Just because somebody's personal beliefs are recorded in the Bible does not
make their personal beliefs eo ipso truth. Judas believed it was possible for
living Jews to offer sacrifices for the sins of dead Jews. Is it? No; absolutely
not! Were it possible, then a procedure for that purpose would be stipulated
in Moses' covenanted law.

If 2Mcc 12:38-46 teaches anything at all it's that the Israel of Judas
Maccabeus' day was spiritually decadent-- just as decadent as it was in the
days of the Judges when every man did that which was right in his own eyes
rather than Yhvh's; and they were still busy at it even in the Lord's day and
age.

†. Mrk 7:6-9 . . And Jesus said to them: Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you
hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their
heart is far away from me. In futility do they worship me, teaching as
doctrines the precepts of men. Neglecting the commandment of God, you
hold to the tradition of men.

†. Mrk 7:13 . . You invalidate the word of God by your tradition which you
have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

Buen Camino
/

xino said:

Purgatory is taught by Catholics.
Christians do not teach Purgatory because it doesn't exist in bible.

Click to expand...

What a strange comment.

aspen2 said:

Xino,

The problem a lot of Catholics run into when they find themselves in a conversation with a Protestant is that the Reformers changed the rules of Christianity 1500 years after Christ AND instead of simply recognizing this fact, Catholics often fall into the trap of trying to fit Catholicism into a Protestant box. Catholicism does not follow sola scriptura, for example, because Catholicism is not Protestant, not because Catholicism isnt Christian.

Protestantism came out of Catholicism - claiming otherwise is like America claiming that we have no connection to Britain; instead, America actually existed before Britain and in fact, Britain is really a corruption of the American way of government.

Protestant demands for Catholics:

1. Prove to our satisfaction that Catholicism follows Sola Scriptura - if you cannot you are not Christian

2. Ignore all Church history that does not recognize a shadow Protestant movement that existed alongside of Catholicism

3. Ignore all instances of Catholic practices in the Early Church because it was all made up by Roman Catholic leaders hundreds of years later.

4. Protestantism is older than Catholicism

5. Protestants don't really exist - Christians who do not belong to the Catholic Church can call themselves anything they want and deny any of the history that is connected to the Reformation movement - they are free agents.

6. Catholics are responsible for all of their history - including all Protestant interpretations of history.


If Catholics do not play by these Protestant rules they are either

1. Arrogant
2. Ignorant
3. Not Christian
4. All of the above.

So remember, when a Catholic doesn't give you the RIGHT answer - you guys play by different rules.

Click to expand...

So, why be a Catholic or a Protestant. Just be a Bible believing, Holy Spirit filled Christian. Most Christians I know don't call themselves Protestants. They call themselves Christians. It's other people that call them Protestants. Can you guess who they are?

Axehead

Webers_Home said:

.
Since there are no passages in the Holy Bible that clearly, and without
ambiguity, attest to the existence of a purgatory in the afterlife; theologians
have taken to appropriating passages that allude to a purgatory; viz: that
suggest a purgatory. A really cute specimen is located in one of the
apocryphal books

Click to expand...

No passages?
try here

In 2Mcc 12:38-46 a Jewish military commander named Judas Maccabeus
made an attempt to atone for his dead soldiers' pagan amulets which he
believed is a crime against God for Jews to wear. So Judas passed the hat
among his surviving men and collected about 2,000 silver drachmas which
were sent to Jerusalem intended for a sacrifice to expiate his dead men's sin
so that it wouldn't jeopardize their resurrection.

Click to expand...

This proves that the concept of purgatory began with the Jews, here and elsewhere.

Although his heart was in the right place; what Judas did was itself a
violation of the very Law that he sought to appease. There are no sacrifices
stipulated in Moses' covenanted law for expiating the sins that people take
with them over to the afterlife.

Click to expand...

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

So then, Judas' sacrifice was a man-made innovation, which is seriously
curse-worthy because the very Law he sought to appease makes it a crime
to either amend, embellish, add to, revise, edit, upgrade, update, or subtract
from Moses' covenanted law.

Click to expand...

Jewish prayers for the dead, such as the Kaddish, has nothing to do with Moses' covenanted law, and neither does 2Mcc 12:38-46.

†. Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take
anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God
that I enjoin upon you.

Click to expand...

God does not command prayers and offerings, it is done out of love for the souls of others.

†. Deut 5:29-30 . . Be careful, then, to do as the Lord your God has
commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the
path that the Lord your God has enjoined upon you, so that you may thrive
and that it may go well with you, and that you may long endure in the land
you are to possess.

Click to expand...

This passage has nothing to do with purgatory.

†. Deut 26:16 . .The Lord your God commands you this day to follow these
decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all
your soul.

Click to expand...

Decrees and laws do not negate, refute, or deny purgatory.

It's important that one play by the rules and not make up their own as they
go along.

Click to expand...

It's important not to flatly deny and reject our Judaeo/Christian heritage.

†. Ps 119:8-12 . .Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking
heed thereto according to thy word. With my whole heart have I sought
thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

Click to expand...

What if you wandered a little bit? Go straight to hell?

So then, anyone who follows Judas Maccabeus' example falls under the
Law's curse same as he did.

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Law and
observe them.

Click to expand...

There is no hint or reference to the Jewish kernal-form concept of purgatory in the Law, it was not the purpose of the law to give the Jews a concise treatice on a theology that would not be expanded on until the New Testament.

Honestly, I think this thread should probably be locked. Axehead has raised a good point on another thread - this is not a Catholic board and therefore, not a place to teach Catholic doctrine. Neophyte, your education or intelligence or whatever you like to bring up whenever I confront you on your practice of proselytizing Protestants, is no excuse for shoving Catholic doctrine down the throats of the other Christians that post here. You are only making people react defensively and become turned off by Catholics!

Take a lesson from St. Benedict when he refused to admit men into his monastery before they proved their desire to follow God by staying at the front gate for as long as it took to be welcomed in. There is a reason why joining the Catholic church requires an adult to enroll in RCIA and wait from September to April (baptized) or June (unbaptized) - the Church wants potential members to understand what the church actually teaches and to make sure they are lead by God to join.

You zeal is good, but it is being misdirected.

Peace,
Aspen

Axehead said:

So, why be a Catholic or a Protestant. Just be a Bible believing, Holy Spirit filled Christian. Most Christians I know don't call themselves Protestants. They call themselves Christians. It's other people that call them Protestants. Can you guess who they are?

Axehead

Click to expand...

I call myself Catholic because I want to make sure that people on this board realize where I am coming from. I use the word Protestant because I believe Protestant Churches are Christian, but different from Catholic Churches. I think of myself as Christian.

Webers_Home said:

FAQ : How can you doubt the truth of 2Mcc 12:38-46? It's in the Holy Bible!

Just because somebody's personal beliefs are recorded in the Bible does not
make their personal beliefs eo ipso truth. Judas believed it was possible for
living Jews to offer sacrifices for the sins of dead Jews. Is it? No; absolutely
not! Were it possible, then a procedure for that purpose would be stipulated
in Moses' covenanted law.

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see above

If 2Mcc 12:38-46 teaches anything at all it's that the Israel of Judas
Maccabeus' day was spiritually decadent-- just as decadent as it was in the
days of the Judges when every man did that which was right in his own eyes
rather than Yhvh's; and they were still busy at it even in the Lord's day and
age.

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[44] For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
[45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

The Hebrew/Judaic people were decadent in the Book of Judges?
The Greek speaking Jews (including the Bereans) were decadent for holding 1&2 Maccabbees as scripture for 200 years before Christ?

†. Mrk 7:6-9 . . And Jesus said to them: Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you
hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their
heart is far away from me. In futility do they worship me, teaching as
doctrines the precepts of men. Neglecting the commandment of God, you
hold to the tradition of men.

†. Mrk 7:13 . . You invalidate the word of God by your tradition which you
have handed down; and you do many things such as that..

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Please re-read Mark 7. Jesus is talking about the false tradition of not honoring your parents by giving all glory to God. The scribes and Pharisees invented a tradition of giving everything to God to make themselves look holy, and not spending any money to care for their elderly parents. Jesus said, "...YOUR tradition..."Twisting this verse to make it look like Jesus is condemning all tradition is a false tradition in itself.

The The Talmud peaks of Purgatory:

Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."

The completely righteous will be recorded and sealed at once for eternal life. The completely wicked will be recorded and doomed at once to Gehinnom, as it says: "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise up, some to eternal life and some to shame and eternal rejection" [Daniel 12:2]. Those in between will go down to Gehinnom and cry out and rise up, as it says: "And I will bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them" [Zechariah 13:9]
Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process, and the same theme is reflected in Wisdom 3:1-7 and II Maccabees 12:43-45, both contained in the Deuterocanonical books that Protestants refer to as "The Apocrypha."

Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always proclaimed the reality of the final purification for those who need it. It was not until the Protestant Reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.
source

Talmud:
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."

Phil. 2:10-11: that the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

(1) of those in heaven,
(2) and of those on earth,
(3) and of those under the earth,

We all are at various stages in our walk, but I would exhort Neophyte not to come in swinging next time.

I think there are many misconceptions about what Purgatory is and what it isn't.

I also think it is possible to explain Purgatory, mainly from the NT but using some OT (without Maccabees ) but this is not the thread to do it in now.