You are right neophyte. all you have said is true. and it's good to have someone like you hear.Foreigner,
The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.
The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.
Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As does the many writings from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.
Purgatory,as explained from the NT
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You are right neophyte. all you have said is true. and it's good to have someone like you hear.
-- Kepha, if you are going to jump in, you should at least know what is being discussed.
I am going to try to help you here. Please focus.
First, we are discussing Purgatory as it relates to those who have already sought forgiveness for their sins and Christ has forgiven them.
The Macabees scripture Neophyte provided has nothing at all to do with that.
Second, the Macabees scripture Neophyte gave is used out of context (surprise surprise).
If you read the two verses before the ones Neophyte provided, you will see WHY it doesn't apply.
Here, let me help you.............Here are the Macabees scriptures Neophyte refers to:
41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.
AND HERE ARE THE TWO VERSES BEFORE THEM THAT HE CONVENIENTLY OMITTED:
39 On the next day, as had now become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kindred in the sepulchres of their ancestors. 40 Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen.
These ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ verses show that the Jews who died had died in their sins.
Sins they obviously didn't seek forgiveness for since they were still wearing them at the time of their death.
THEREFORE:
They were knowingly, intentionally sinning against God: ("which the law forbids the Jews to wear.")
They knew what they were doing was a sin against God and they CHOSE to sin, not seeking God's forgiveness before they died.
That means that within the context of what we were discussing as far as sins they had already sought forgivness for, the scripture Neophyte provided has NOTHING to do with the topic.
And when you look at it on a more strategic level, they were chosing to intentionally sin. Intentionally chose to live a life of sin.
They had turned their backs on God and chose to wear "tokens of the idols of Jamnia."
That pretty well null and voids purgatory as an option anyway.
PLEASE TRY TO KEEP UP.
The scripture we were discussing is this one and OBVIOUSLY it has to do with when Christ returns:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thess. 4:16-17
But did you really just say, "Not everyone needs to be purified after death?"
According to Catholic Doctrine, the only POSSIBLE way that could be correct is:
1. If those that joined the Lord in the air did not have any sin in their lives whatsoever that they had not already sought forgiveness for.
2. If their "temporal punishment" that they have acquired over a life of sin has already been COMPLETELY ELIMINATED via indulgences.
According to Catholic doctrine, that is the only way your statement could possibly be true.
That means that the only way that that Biblical Scripture could be correct - according to you and the Catholic Church - is if:
1. The only Christians left on earth at the end of times are Catholics and Catholics alone.
2. Those Catholics have already taken care of all of their "temporal punishment" via indulgences and have not committed one single solitary additional sin in thought, word, or deed.
Sorry, but that doesn't pass the smell test.
Foreigner, I will be brief as possible.Your last #1 and # 2 answers, only #1 is correct .You get an A+ for that correct answer.
The Catholic/Apostolic Church will stand until the end of time. Our narcissistic culture, our corrupt government, our foolish trendsetters all will pass away. The Church will perdure—and more than that. The Church will remake the world, because Christ, the head of the Church, rules the world and provides the Church with the grace and wisdom needed to carry out that task. It is just a matter of time.
The Catholic/Apostolic Church will stand until the end of time. Our narcissistic culture, our corrupt government, our foolish trendsetters all will pass away. The Church will perdure—and more than that. The Church will remake the world, because Christ, the head of the Church, rules the world and provides the Church with the grace and wisdom needed to carry out that task. It is just a matter of time.
-- I will return the favor and be just as brief (but more accurate).
Your own Catholic Church does not agree with what you are saying.
Sorry, but you are gravely mistaken, because Truth can not contridict Truth , God gave us only One Church and both God and His One Apostolic Church agree.
You are the one that said, "there is a reason that book isn't actually in the Bible." Actually it is, it just isn't in yours.
45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.
It looks to me that it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic. You don't believe people on earth can do anything for people in purgatory. You think you are helpless to pray for the soul of a friend who was severely depressed and committed suicide. My faith is not so impotent.
There is no evidence that they turned their backs on God in any of these verses. Their sins were not deserving of eternal damnation. You will not go to hell if you steal a pen from work, but you may go to hell for stealing food from a hungry family. All the Jews did was wear good luck charms. Maybe your God sends people to hell for minor infractions but mine doesn't.
1 Thess. 4:16-17 has nothing do with purgatory, and does not negate purgatory in any way. Yes, I said Not everyone needs to be purified after death. Purgatory is a state of being, not a place and since there is no time in eternity, there is no way to determine it's duration, but we know it is not forever, and we know it is for the saved. It has nothing to do with sins already forgiven. It has to do with the way we lived our Christian life and not all of us die in a perfect state, just like the Jews in 2 Maccabees. Whether or not you accept 2 Maccabees as inspired is not the point.You reject your Jewish heritage to the point where your system would be unrecognizable to the early church.
You seem to be confused. In Maccabees, they gave silver offerings (indulgences) to buy a sacrificial animal to be offered for the sins of the soldiers. That book, 6 other Old Testament books, and several New Testament books, didn't sit right with Martin Luther's opinions.
Myth 1: A person can buy his way out of hell with indulgences.
This charge is without foundation. Since indulgences remit only temporal penalties, they cannot remit the eternal penalty of hell. Once a person is in hell, no amount of indulgences will ever change that fact. The only way to avoid hell is by appealing to God’s eternal mercy while still alive. After death, one’s eternal fate is set (Heb. 9:27).
Myth 2: A person can buy indulgences for sins not yet committed.
The Church has always taught that indulgences do not apply to sins not yet committed. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes, "[An indulgence] is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power."
Myth 3: A person can "buy forgiveness" with indulgences.
The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place: "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1, emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.
Myth 4: Indulgences were invented as a means for the Church to raise money.
Indulgences developed from reflection on the sacrament of reconciliation. They are a way of shortening the penance of sacramental discipline and were in use centuries before money-related problems appeared.
Myth 5: An indulgence will shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days.
The number of days which used to be attached to indulgences were references to the period of penance one might undergo during life on earth. The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general, much less in a specific person’s case.
Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.
Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.
One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."
source
Yet your own Pope states that non-Catholics can and will go to heaven.
Neophyte, I am having trouble keeping count of the number of times your claims about the Catholic Church contradict what the Church itself says.
Vatican Link: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...entium_en.html
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
CHAPTER II
ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ.They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities.
Neophyte, I am having trouble keeping count of the number of times your claims about the Catholic Church contradict what the Church itself says.
Vatican Link: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...entium_en.html
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
CHAPTER II
ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ.They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities.
Ya neophyte, I always wondered if Catholics had just a little off-construed view of what purgatory is. From what I understood those who lived by faith rested in "Abraham's Bosom" Which is what I pictured catholics to call purgatory. I don't know about their thoughts about what happens there and reaching salvation while within purgatory, but it seems they weren't far off and the basis of this theory could be linked to Biblical truth. It's like they had it right, but missed the fact that this level of hell was separated from hell when Christ came to save and preach even to the dead. I guess I would say to a Catholic that purgatory doesn't exist anymore, or at least without mushing up terms they're basically referring to Abraham's Bosom or the place of rest the righteous went to after death before Jesus came. Abraham's Bosom being the place I believe the thief went after he died, where Jesus went to preach the good news while sleeping, before transformation in his regular body into his heavenly one.
The fact is the Popes have never stated that ( non-Catholics can and will go to Heaven ) as you put it ?
As only 'Catholics' are Christians.
So we have types of Catholics = Protestants. so protestants can.
I think also other people can but that is very unlikely like some Jews etc did.
Thank you for clarifying the position the Catholic Church has towards non-Catholic Christians. I do not agree with Neophyte's condescending style in the opening post, but we are all at various stages of development. Note the confession he/she made in his/her second post. I've examined all of his/her posts in this thread and not once has Neophyte contradicted Church teaching, not once did Neophyte claim that non-Catholics are not saved. If you are "having trouble counting the number of times" Neophyte has contradicted the Church, then use the quote feature for at least one of them. If you can't, be a man and apologize.
Thank you taking the time to ponder the blue text in post 31.
...+
-- You make me laugh Kepha.
Before you start trying to remove the speck from my eye, you really need to do something about that California Redwood in yours.
Allow me to show where you are wrong.
Here is the post that Neophyte made:
The quote from me he is talking about this this one:
As you will note, he is saying that my quote "The only Christians left on earth at the end of times are Catholics and Catholics alone."
Neophyte is stating that throughout my entire post this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ is the only statement I said that was true.
He is flat out stating that at the end of times only Catholics will be taken to join the Lord in the air.
That means that all other people, even non-Catholic Christians won't be going to be with Jesus.
When I told him he was incorrect, he doubled-down with this:
I can't type any slower or use any smaller words.
If you can't comprehend now, there is little I can do for you.
-- I give you my word that English is my mother tongue, but I must confess I am unable to understand what you are saying specifically.
My mistake Foreigner,I apologize, what I meant to write was this : That only Christ's Church will be here to meet Jesus in the final days, only His Church will be existing. All other churches, along with their off-shoot cults, will have split away into obliteration.
-- No problem. But I am interested to see if you having anything that supports that position.
I love a challenge!!! It makes me pray, research, and think! Since I've prayed all day for this forum, and I am too tired to think, I'll just throw some thoughts around off the top of my head.
Acts 1:6 Are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Isreal? What a loaded question. Jesus basically says, "None of your business". I think Jesus meant that in his capacity as the Son of Man, He couldn't say the time of His return, but in his Oneness with the Father as the Son of God, He knows. OR He knew that the Apostles did not have the capacity to comprehend what would take place for the next X thousands of years.
No man knows the state of the Church at the time of His return. It's difficult enough trying to explain the state the Church is in now. 500 years ago everybody was throwing anathemas all over the place. Since then the Church has matured and no longer uses that kind of language. 142 years ago the Church had the maturity (audacity to some die hards) to invite Protestant delegates to observe the proceedings of Vatican 1. At Vatican II, Protestant observers actually showed up. It was the first council to use telephones. It was the first council to include women. More extraordinary than that, the Church broadened the definition of herself to include all baptized believers, and that separation was a matter of degree.
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."[sup]267[/sup]
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."[sup]268[/sup] (don't get your backs up. You have to follow the footnotes to know what "People of God" means)
Wounds to unity
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."[sup]269[/sup] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[sup]270[/sup] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[sup]271[/sup] (it doesn't say one heart and one soul of Catholics)
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[sup]272[/sup]
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[sup]273[/sup] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[sup]274[/sup] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[sup]275[/sup] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[sup]276[/sup]
<a name="820">Toward unity
820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."[sup]277[/sup] Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."[sup]278[/sup] The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.[sup]279[/sup]
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
2. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God's help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?
I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.
Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.
3. At the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church committed herself irrevocably to following the path of the ecumenical venture, thus heeding the Spirit of the Lord, who teaches people to interpret carefully the "signs of the times" . The experiences of these years have made the Church even more profoundly aware of her identity and her mission in history. The Catholic Church acknowledges and confesses the weaknesses of her members, conscious that their sins are so many betrayals of and obstacles to the accomplishment of the Saviour's plan. Because she feels herself constantly called to be renewed in the spirit of the Gospel, she does not cease to do penance. At the same time, she acknowledges and exalts still more the power of the Lord, who fills her with the gift of holiness, leads her forward, and conforms her to his Passion and Resurrection.
Ut Unum Sint
It begs the question:
What is Christ's Church?
Acts 1:6 Are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Isreal? What a loaded question. Jesus basically says, "None of your business". I think Jesus meant that in his capacity as the Son of Man, He couldn't say the time of His return, but in his Oneness with the Father as the Son of God, He knows. OR He knew that the Apostles did not have the capacity to comprehend what would take place for the next X thousands of years.
No man knows the state of the Church at the time of His return. It's difficult enough trying to explain the state the Church is in now. 500 years ago everybody was throwing anathemas all over the place. Since then the Church has matured and no longer uses that kind of language. 142 years ago the Church had the maturity (audacity to some die hards) to invite Protestant delegates to observe the proceedings of Vatican 1. At Vatican II, Protestant observers actually showed up. It was the first council to use telephones. It was the first council to include women. More extraordinary than that, the Church broadened the definition of herself to include all baptized believers, and that separation was a matter of degree.
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."[sup]267[/sup]
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."[sup]268[/sup] (don't get your backs up. You have to follow the footnotes to know what "People of God" means)
Wounds to unity
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."[sup]269[/sup] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[sup]270[/sup] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[sup]271[/sup] (it doesn't say one heart and one soul of Catholics)
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[sup]272[/sup]
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[sup]273[/sup] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[sup]274[/sup] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[sup]275[/sup] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[sup]276[/sup]
<a name="820">Toward unity
820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."[sup]277[/sup] Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."[sup]278[/sup] The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.[sup]279[/sup]
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
2. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God's help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?
I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.
Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.
3. At the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church committed herself irrevocably to following the path of the ecumenical venture, thus heeding the Spirit of the Lord, who teaches people to interpret carefully the "signs of the times" . The experiences of these years have made the Church even more profoundly aware of her identity and her mission in history. The Catholic Church acknowledges and confesses the weaknesses of her members, conscious that their sins are so many betrayals of and obstacles to the accomplishment of the Saviour's plan. Because she feels herself constantly called to be renewed in the spirit of the Gospel, she does not cease to do penance. At the same time, she acknowledges and exalts still more the power of the Lord, who fills her with the gift of holiness, leads her forward, and conforms her to his Passion and Resurrection.
Ut Unum Sint
It begs the question:
What is Christ's Church?
There is the church and then there are churches. "The church" is defined by an inner working of the spirit within the believer and we congregate in what we call "Churches", but the terms mean completely different things. What I mean by that is the body of Christ called "The Church" is defined inwardly, not by a definite church structure or even system of beliefs/doctrine far removed from Jesus Christ is Lord. Christians are going to come from everywhere, they're in the synagogues, the morman churches, the Jehovah's witness, etc. etc. The numbers may vary and the doctrine each group teaches matters, but the fact is even the most evangelical church house non Christian "believers". There is no one true church you can find in any one building. We're brothers and sisters by Spirit and it is the same Spirit that will call us to heaven on the last day. That doesn't really have to do with purgatory but I'm talking about the church in general.
My proof is the same inworking circumcision in the heart the Israelites experienced, and even outsiders could be inducted into the community as a symbol of God's love to all humanity. God deemed people righteous before there was a church both inside and outside his nation Israel. The mystery is revealed that Christ's salvation is for the entire world, and not just Israel and that was the plan from the beginning. Christ did his part in ministry and wasn't responsible for the outcome. He did just as we are called to do; we perform how God leads us and the results are up to the non believer and the Holy Spirit. We just have to make sure we're doing our part or someone may not have the chance to choose. It's not about chance at all though, since we all get a choice even if it's strictly revealed by God's creation.
My proof is the same inworking circumcision in the heart the Israelites experienced, and even outsiders could be inducted into the community as a symbol of God's love to all humanity. God deemed people righteous before there was a church both inside and outside his nation Israel. The mystery is revealed that Christ's salvation is for the entire world, and not just Israel and that was the plan from the beginning. Christ did his part in ministry and wasn't responsible for the outcome. He did just as we are called to do; we perform how God leads us and the results are up to the non believer and the Holy Spirit. We just have to make sure we're doing our part or someone may not have the chance to choose. It's not about chance at all though, since we all get a choice even if it's strictly revealed by God's creation.
The C of E is a Catholic Church but a protesting one.
The Lutheran Church is a Catholic Church but a protesting one. as both say they are Catholic and others.
As it is in the understanding of the word Catholic.
I would say that most RCC people are protestants as well really, due to there having lack of understanding. one could say.
Scripture does not support Purgatory but History might....Catholic history, that is.
The New Testament is completely silent regarding Purgatory, which has become a vital part of Roman Catholic doctrine. In addition, the Catholic Church admits that the New Testament church did not believe in it with the following language:
"almost as old as the Church", (Externals of the Catholic Church, 351).
"Still, the doctrine was not fully established in the West, til the time of Gregory the Great", (Catholic Dictionary, 706). What that means is that it was not fully developed before 590 AD! Notice how this doctrine was "developed.
This particular author also goes on to say that "belief in Purgatory lay dormant in the primitive church to a certain extent" (p. 704), and also that such very important "Fathers" as Augustine and Chrysostom did not believe it!
The standard claim of the Catholic Church (like everything else) is that Purgatory was taught by the Apostles, but just not written in the New Testament. What do you think? Is it believable that the Apostles knew about it but in all their writings there is no clear mention of it?
Maybe this will explain how the Roman Catholic Church arrives at interpretations of the New Testament that are beyond most of us.
"There is sometimes in such passages a fullness and a hidden depth of meaning which the letter hardly expresses and which the laws of interpretation hardly warrant. Moreover, the literal sense itself frequently admits of other senses, adapted to illustrate dogma or to confirm morality. Wherefore, it must be recognized that the sacred writings are wrapped in a certain religious obscurity, and that NO ONE can enter into their interior WITHOUT A GUIDE" (Pope Leo XIII in Great Encyclical Letters, 285).
The Roman Catholic Church "wrests" scriptures in order to prove Purgatory
"We would appeal to these general principles of Scripture, rather than to particular texts often alleged in proof of Purgatory. We doubt if they contain an explicit and direct reference to it" (Catholic Dictionary, 704).
PRESUMPTION
"So we presume all Catholics who die to be in Purgatory: although it may often seem more probable for a particular soul that it is in heaven or hell" (Plain Facts, 125, Imprimatur by Michael Augustinus, 1895)
As a Catholic, you may be paying and working for nothing.
"I would say that the Catholic Church claims no jurisdiction over souls in the other world, and professes absolute ignorance regarding God's particular application of the infinite merits of the passion and death of His Son to the souls in purgatory. All Masses and prayers for the dead are applied "by way of suffrage" -- that is are dependent on God's secret mercy and will, who in His infinite justice may apply to another soul altogether the Masses said for a certain individual" (Question Box, 1913, edition, 460-461)
The very nature of the Bible ought to prove to any thinking man the impossibility of its being the one safe method to find out what the Saviour taught.(Question Box, 1913 edition, page 67)
“Each time that members say the holy names of Jesus and Mary devoutly: seven days’ indulgence...Those who openly wear the Holy Rosary out of devotion and to set a good example may gain one hundred days’ indulgence” (The Secret of the Rosary, St. Louis De Montfort, 86).
"The Church does not pretend to know how much of Purgatory God remits by a partial indulgence [a remittance of the punishment due sins after death] of so many days, years, etc." (Question Box, 413, 1913 edition).
Axehead
The New Testament is completely silent regarding Purgatory, which has become a vital part of Roman Catholic doctrine. In addition, the Catholic Church admits that the New Testament church did not believe in it with the following language:
"almost as old as the Church", (Externals of the Catholic Church, 351).
"Still, the doctrine was not fully established in the West, til the time of Gregory the Great", (Catholic Dictionary, 706). What that means is that it was not fully developed before 590 AD! Notice how this doctrine was "developed.
This particular author also goes on to say that "belief in Purgatory lay dormant in the primitive church to a certain extent" (p. 704), and also that such very important "Fathers" as Augustine and Chrysostom did not believe it!
The standard claim of the Catholic Church (like everything else) is that Purgatory was taught by the Apostles, but just not written in the New Testament. What do you think? Is it believable that the Apostles knew about it but in all their writings there is no clear mention of it?
Maybe this will explain how the Roman Catholic Church arrives at interpretations of the New Testament that are beyond most of us.
"There is sometimes in such passages a fullness and a hidden depth of meaning which the letter hardly expresses and which the laws of interpretation hardly warrant. Moreover, the literal sense itself frequently admits of other senses, adapted to illustrate dogma or to confirm morality. Wherefore, it must be recognized that the sacred writings are wrapped in a certain religious obscurity, and that NO ONE can enter into their interior WITHOUT A GUIDE" (Pope Leo XIII in Great Encyclical Letters, 285).
The Roman Catholic Church "wrests" scriptures in order to prove Purgatory
"We would appeal to these general principles of Scripture, rather than to particular texts often alleged in proof of Purgatory. We doubt if they contain an explicit and direct reference to it" (Catholic Dictionary, 704).
PRESUMPTION
"So we presume all Catholics who die to be in Purgatory: although it may often seem more probable for a particular soul that it is in heaven or hell" (Plain Facts, 125, Imprimatur by Michael Augustinus, 1895)
As a Catholic, you may be paying and working for nothing.
"I would say that the Catholic Church claims no jurisdiction over souls in the other world, and professes absolute ignorance regarding God's particular application of the infinite merits of the passion and death of His Son to the souls in purgatory. All Masses and prayers for the dead are applied "by way of suffrage" -- that is are dependent on God's secret mercy and will, who in His infinite justice may apply to another soul altogether the Masses said for a certain individual" (Question Box, 1913, edition, 460-461)
The very nature of the Bible ought to prove to any thinking man the impossibility of its being the one safe method to find out what the Saviour taught.(Question Box, 1913 edition, page 67)
“Each time that members say the holy names of Jesus and Mary devoutly: seven days’ indulgence...Those who openly wear the Holy Rosary out of devotion and to set a good example may gain one hundred days’ indulgence” (The Secret of the Rosary, St. Louis De Montfort, 86).
"The Church does not pretend to know how much of Purgatory God remits by a partial indulgence [a remittance of the punishment due sins after death] of so many days, years, etc." (Question Box, 413, 1913 edition).
Axehead
Give the man a cigar! But,
A) how many denominations are in heaven?
B ) Won't those who are saved and forever with God be as holy as Christ Himself?
C) Will there be a universal faith in heaven?
D) Is the Church in heaven built with Christ, the cornerstone, and the Apostles and prophets her foundation?
Answers:
A) One
B ) Holy
C) Universal (Catholic)
D) Apostolic
These are known as the 4 marks of God, or divine attributes, or divine characteristics that describe the Church. To how many and/or to what degree each church, community, group, or feel-good-bible-cult wishes to accept is up to them. The point being, that once we get into heaven, we will all be fully one, holy, universal and apostolic Church. Catholics don't sever the umbilical cord between the Church in heaven and the Church on earth. To me, doing so smacks of pagan dualism, the false dichotomy that pits matter against spirit. But I digress. I can accept the invisible church theory to a point. There is no exclusivity going here.
True. If 99.99% of Catholics fall into mortal sin, it doesn't change the teachings, and it doesn't change the holiness of Christ. There are ethical Catholics, or Catholics by birth, by inertia, or by default. then there are practicing Catholics. Comparing the best evangelicals with the worst Catholics is hardly fair.
The term Catholic can be derived from scripture. To some, the term Catholic means a billion people being deceived by power hungry control freaks pulling doctrines out of their pointy hats.
I agree with you.
I would just say that when one comes to Christ, be it however they did. one should grow and in this, i think one always grows or has the ability to do so, all your life even if you were 120 years old.
When looking at the way protestants view the Bible i see that they lack what the RCC in depth knowledge has to offer. and sadly they are deceived into swallowing a lot of slandering points of views that there foundation of worldly protesting comes from. i was a protestant once and praise the Lord i am not now. i am not interested with the worldly RCC as i know there is a lot of rotten going on. but it's inside the glory of the in depth RCC and that is where it's at, that i can see.
So to put light on what i am trying to say is, that looking at the outside of the RCC i could not see anything but filth. but inside Spiritually ? now that is fantastic.
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