“Understanding The Word”

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,240
846
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
--------------------------------------------------------------
What explains Scripture? It is the Spirit of God alone. His power can unfold any part of the Word of God. Do you ask if I mean to say that it is of no importance to know languages, understand history and so on? I am not raising a question about learning; it has its use. But I deny that history is the interpreter of Scripture.

And if there are Christians who know the history of the world, or the original tongues of Scripture, it is the Lord Jesus Christ that has to with their spiritual intelligence and not their knowledge or leaning. Besides, even if men are believers, it does not necessarily follow that they understand Scripture.

Real entrance into God’s mind, in Scripture, supposes that a person watches against the old man, desires the glory of God, has full confidence in His Word, and dependence upon the Holy Spirit. The mind is only the vessel – not the power. The power is the Holy Spirit, acting upon and through the vessel; but it must be the Spirit that gives one to know the things of God (1 Cor 2:14). “They shall be taught of God.”

There is a great difference in the measure of the teaching, because there is much difference in the measure of dependence upon the Father. The important thing is to bear in mind that the understanding of the Word of God depends much upon what is moral than what is of the mind – upon a single eye to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit can never give us anything to save us from the necessity of dependence and waiting upon our Father – but that He does give us.

We find Daniel expressing in humbleness of mind his unfitness for receiving such communications. First, one like the similitude of the sons of men touches his lips, and he is instructed to speak unto the Lord. He confesses his weakness – that there is no strength left in him. But “there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, and said, O man, greatly beloved, fear not. Peace be unto the; be strong, yea, be strong.”

Men, until they are thoroughly established in peace, until their hearts know the real source of strength, are not capable of profiting by the Word of God. Here we find Daniel set upon his feet, his mouth opened, his fears hushed, before the Lord can open out the Word to him. His heart must be in restful peace in the strength of the Lord, and in the presence of his Father.

Anxiety of spirit, the want of settled peace, has more to do than people think with the little progress that they make in understanding much of God’s Word. It is not enough that a man have life and the Spirit of God; but there must be a breaking down of the flesh and simple, peaceful resting in the Lord Jesus – the knowing of who and where we are in Him. -- W.M. Kelly
 

joshhuntnm

Member
Jul 1, 2012
130
2
18
The spirit alone, yes, but. . .

I also like to see what God has said to others through his spirit. thus, I read a lot of commentaries. to ignore what God has said to others through his Spirit seems arrogant.
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,240
846
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The spirit alone, yes, but. . .

I also like to see what God has said to others through his spirit. thus, I read a lot of commentaries. to ignore what God has said to others through his Spirit seems arrogant.

I agree Josh, of what the Spirit has shown to others is what we should all desire. Not just for truth's sake but for bonding within "the Household of God".

Good point and God's blessings to your Family!
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
If God's Holy Writ were not important, but an understanding of The Spirit only, then those who believe that tell us what God said to Isaiah in Isaiah 44:8 about Himself, and DO NOT open up The Holy Writ to find out what He said there.

God's Word always follows first the manner of written language. The Holy Spirit does not bypass that, because The Holy Spirit will NEVER disagree with God's Holy Writ.

The 19th century Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger did an excellent documented work with The Witness Of The Stars. He went to ancient artifacts to discover how the 'original' meanings of the 12 star constellations had been corrupted throughout pagan history, and that the original meanings were directly tied to God's Word. It reveals God's Word was first written in the stars prior to It being given to man in written form, and his documentation revealed that at some point back in man's early history, they knew this even before letters (otherwise the original Biblical meanings of the 12 constellations would have never been found).

So God's Holy Writ is not just some common form of literature like man's literature, even though it will follow many principles of language grammar, etc.

One of the unique events in God's Writ are 'symmetrical structures' that do not appear in man's literature. They involve perfect outlines of the flow of a subject within The Scripture itself, which is a working OF The Holy Spirit when His Word was given and written down in letters. This is why I heavily recommend Bullinger's KJV study Bible called The Companion Bible, for he reveals those structure outlines. No other English Bible version reveals that.
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,240
846
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If God's Holy Writ were not important, but an understanding of The Spirit only, then those who believe that tell us what God said to Isaiah in Isaiah 44:8 about Himself, and DO NOT open up The Holy Writ to find out what He said there.

Hi Vet and God's blessings to you! I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Hi Vet and God's blessings to you! I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Blessings to you in Christ too!

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that God's Word is Eternal, His Plan written even in the stars prior to man's letters, and that means His written Word given through His servants the prophets and Apostles existed prior to being put down in letters through them.

Regarding the 'structures' in His Word, that's about how subject outlines flow in His Word. It does so in a perfect way unlike man's literature, revealing The Holy Spirit's working in those subject outline structures as given through His servants to write it down for us. Check out a copy of The Companion Bible, the 1611 KJV study Bible which E.W. Bullinger put together in the 19th century. It contains those outline structures in the side margin.

A simple example of that is like in Acts 2 with what was spoken on Pentecost. If you trace the subject of that idea of the cloven tongue there in the Greek NT of Acts 2, it reveals a perfect alternation, like ...

a. glossa
a. glossa
b. dialektos
b. dialektos
a. glossa
a. glossa


That's just a very basic example of the structures. The separate subjects within each Bible Book flows in that way also, revealing it's not just a coincidence that the subjects are layed out in that way. No writing style of man could do that, and make it come out that way.

Here's an example with the structure of the Book of Matthew:

A | 1:1 - 1:23 - Pre-Ministerial
B | 3.1 - 4 - The Forerunner
C | 3:5 - 17 - The Baptism: With Water
D | 4.1 - 11 - The Temptation: In The Wilderness
E | F | 4:12-7:29 The Kingdom (Proclaimed)
...| G | 8.1 - 16:20 The King (Proclaimed)
...| G | 16:21 - 20:34 The King (Rejected)
...| F | 21:1 - 26:35 The Kingdom (Rejected)
D | 26:36 - 46 The Agony: In The Garden
C | 26:47 - 28:15 The Baptism: Of Suffering (Death, Burial, and Resurrection)
B | 28:16 - 18 The Successors
A | 28:19 - 20 Post-Minsterial


This is why when we read a chapter in God's Word, there's often repeats of the earlier topics in the latter part of the chapter, sometimes a previous verse repeated verbatim. So what Bullinger did by presenting that outline structure in the margin isn't just some device he came up with. Those structures had to have existed within the original inspiration from God through His servants by The Holy Spirit.

This is why the KJV translation flow for the idea of the cloven tongue does not show the same subject order in English that it does in the original Greek...

a. | "tongues" (KJV) ------- a. | glossa - Acts 2:3
a. | "tongues" (KJV) ------- a. | glossa - Acts 2:4
b. | "language" (KJV) ------- b. | dialektos - Acts 2:6
a. | "tongue" (KJV) ---------- b. |dialektos - Acts 2:8
a. | "tongues" (KJV) ------- a. | glossa - Acts 2:11
a. | "tongue" (KJV) -------- a. | glossa - Acts 2:26

Further, what this reveals is that since that kind of perfect structure is there (i.e., in the best manuscripts), we CAN rely on accuracy of God's Truth through study of His Holy Writ, and study of His Word will still be beyond any of men's ideas of academic intellectualism. Those structures are not academics, but The Holy Spirit's Own markings in God's Holy Writ.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
NC, this is a great topic and I have a couple of questions to start.

What do you think of the many contrary interpretations of various scriptures yet all claim that it was revelation from God?

Shouldn't these "revelations" match up with what was said in the original languages and within the context the scriptures were presented?
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,240
846
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What do you think of the many contrary interpretations of various scriptures yet all claim that it was revelation from God?

Shouldn't these "revelations" match up with what was said in the original languages and within the context the scriptures were presented?

Hi Jiggyfly - I would need specific Scripture passages to address your questions.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Hi Jiggyfly - I would need specific Scripture passages to address your questions.

OK, here's a couple.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1 Cor 13:8-10 (KJV)

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:31-32 (KJV)

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:27 (KJV)

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:18-20 (KJV)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Matt 23:8-10 (KJV)
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
--------------------------------------------------------------
What explains Scripture? It is the Spirit of God alone. His power can unfold any part of the Word of God. Do you ask if I mean to say that it is of no importance to know languages, understand history and so on? I am not raising a question about learning; it has its use. But I deny that history is the interpreter of Scripture.

So, if you don't agree with me, since I SURELY have the SPIRIT and thus the right interpretation, then you have wrong interpretation and therefore not the Spirit. As such we should not listen to anything you have to say theologically..... (I'm playing with the thought...... not picking at you.)

THis rely on the Spirit thing is an unbiblical concept for study. ANYONE can claim they got the Spirit so the rest of us are demons teaching heresy. How can you prove or discern what is right. WOULD a new believer have the maturity to determine if the Spirit was telling them right and the person before them was wrong? It's just a nightmare.

I think that is why in the Pastoral letters PAUL told Tim to make sure the leaders of the Churches Tim was overseeing were well taught. IT's why Paul told Tim to make sure his sayings (not only his writings) were passed on. It's why Paul wrote in Ephesians 4 that the CHURCH is to lead the people to works of service, not theological studies. The learning is on the CHurch leaders, and they prepare the people to live it, not teach it.

So scripturally, the Church is to lead, and you learn to do the works you were saved for, and through the works you gain knowledge in Christ, and Full and Complete Spiritual Maturity, even to the maturity of Christ.

At least, that's what it says. Last time I pointed this out somewhere, I was told I was wrong cause I didn't have the Spirit, just a bunch of words from a 2k year old letter that I took out of context. :| Of course no one ever could show me how context was any different.

Ok, does it sign me up to follow automaticall when I post? Or do I have to do this each time to click follow this topic?
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,243
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
So, if you don't agree with me, since I SURELY have the SPIRIT and thus the right interpretation, then you have wrong interpretation and therefore not the Spirit. As such we should not listen to anything you have to say theologically..... (I'm playing with the thought...... not picking at you.)

THis rely on the Spirit thing is an unbiblical concept for study. ANYONE can claim they got the Spirit so the rest of us are demons teaching heresy. How can you prove or discern what is right. WOULD a new believer have the maturity to determine if the Spirit was telling them right and the person before them was wrong? It's just a nightmare.

I think that is why in the Pastoral letters PAUL told Tim to make sure the leaders of the Churches Tim was overseeing were well taught. IT's why Paul told Tim to make sure his sayings (not only his writings) were passed on. It's why Paul wrote in Ephesians 4 that the CHURCH is to lead the people to works of service, not theological studies. The learning is on the CHurch leaders, and they prepare the people to live it, not teach it.

So scripturally, the Church is to lead, and you learn to do the works you were saved for, and through the works you gain knowledge in Christ, and Full and Complete Spiritual Maturity, even to the maturity of Christ.

At least, that's what it says. Last time I pointed this out somewhere, I was told I was wrong cause I didn't have the Spirit, just a bunch of words from a 2k year old letter that I took out of context. :| Of course no one ever could show me how context was any different.

Ok, does it sign me up to follow automaticall when I post? Or do I have to do this each time to click follow this topic?

I like this...and they prepare the people to live it, not teach it. :)
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
I like this...and they prepare the people to live it, not teach it. :)

Well, in a perfect world. But as a Protestant I notice this is heretical. IT's teaching works. :| That's evil. ROme teaches Works, and they teach the CHURCH is the one supposed to lead the people. The Protestants say that's garbage, except Paul said they are right. So my fundagelical protestant friends get very angry at vss that don't support their views.
 

Tkinnie

Member
May 15, 2011
72
4
8
37
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wow, I too find this interesting, yet scary and very stressful. There's one God, there's one body and there is only one truth... Yet, we all have a different perspective/opinion on that one truth. How can this be? Is the spirit Not guiding us in the word???? Why is it so hard to understand??? There is a fear of missing scripture, added scriptures or changed scriptures... So you have the enemy, the world, false doctrine, and false prophets vs. the want to be believer. I always wondered why God just doesn't come and say whats right and whats wrong that would at least stop the confusion. That would at least cast away the doubt. I have never seen Jesus or yashua etc... I have never seen an apostle or anyone raise from the dead, I have never seen a blind man be healed on the spot, I haven't seen anything the bible teaches. I have not seen true love other than from stories... BUT, I still choose to believe in what scriptures say, no matter how deluded or wrong some accuse the bible of being. This frustrates me because I dont know why I believe what I believe, i mean I fought with the supernatural coming from new age and all, so should I be content knowing that Im on the right path, if GOD rescued me from that then he wont leave me here to get confused...
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
Tim,

I think the answer to your concerns, which I share with you, are found in the following. I won't preach, but if someone wants to see proof of God today, it should be seen in the Church as a whole, through it's individual members. Here's the scripture I back that up with. The first is rarely read as written, but notice all the stuff attributed to us doing the works we were saved to do...

Eph 4:11-18.
Matt 25 last parable.
gal 5:6
1 john 4:16-18
Matt 5:43-48.

Now there is a LOOOOOOTTTTTT more to it, but that's the simplest breakdown I have. I find that a very simple answer that handles its own complexities.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Wow, I too find this interesting, yet scary and very stressful. There's one God, there's one body and there is only one truth... Yet, we all have a different perspective/opinion on that one truth. How can this be? Is the spirit Not guiding us in the word???? Why is it so hard to understand??? There is a fear of missing scripture, added scriptures or changed scriptures... So you have the enemy, the world, false doctrine, and false prophets vs. the want to be believer. I always wondered why God just doesn't come and say whats right and whats wrong that would at least stop the confusion. That would at least cast away the doubt. I have never seen Jesus or yashua etc... I have never seen an apostle or anyone raise from the dead, I have never seen a blind man be healed on the spot, I haven't seen anything the bible teaches. I have not seen true love other than from stories... BUT, I still choose to believe in what scriptures say, no matter how deluded or wrong some accuse the bible of being. This frustrates me because I dont know why I believe what I believe, i mean I fought with the supernatural coming from new age and all, so should I be content knowing that Im on the right path, if GOD rescued me from that then he wont leave me here to get confused...


You actually ought to have a bit of an advantage by coming out of the new age stuff, because you should have a better contrast between God's Truth and the devil's lies.

Per Amos 8, God said the day would come when He would bring a famine upon the land, but not one for lack of bread or thirst for water, but one of not hearing The Word of The LORD, looking everywhere for It but not finding It. That is upon many today, especially those who don't really study God's Word His way, but default to just what's popular being taught in the Church pulpits.

The same new age false prophets are in many of Christ's Churches today also. But you'll have to really get into God's Word line upon line, chapter by chapter for yourself with His help to recognize those.