Symbols

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Eltanin

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I see allot of debate about symbols and their relation to the Christian walk in the forums. From comments about the cross, to a debate about the pentagram...

The symbols of the cross, the 6-pointed star (aka Star of David), the 5-pointed star (pentacle), the wheel, and so many others are symbols found in cultures that existed before even Abraham's time. All of these symbols mentioned above have at one time or another been major symbols in Judaism, and in Christianity. Some of them have been twisted in the last 100 years to mean something that is counter to Christ... But even so, they were used over and again before Christianity hit the scene.

People have some pretty strong opinions about symbols and what should and should not be displayed by a Christian. I can understand, but I have to wonder if we as Christians are giving to much authority to symbols and how they relate to being moral or not.

I have a case-in-point...

ICHTHYS aka the Jesus Fish
Everyone knows of the fish. We see it plastered on bumpers and Bible covers quite often... We all understand that it is something Christians wear and means Jesus somehow....

If you walk up to someone who has this symbol emblazoned on their property or person, most will give you an explanation that seems to line up with a general understanding of the symbol... I have heard people equate it with Jesus providing food for the multitudes, I have heard people explain that we are fishers of men, or "fish" and "Jesus" are spelled the same in Greek... Once in a great while I might hear the actual historical explanation or the literal acronym (Jesus-Christ-God-Son-Savior), but in all reality, the history doesn't really matter, it is about how an individual relates.

Before the Christians had the fish, Nineveh (You know, where Jonah went?) had Dagon, and his symbol was at times... You guessed it, the fish (well, grain too, another symbol used by Christians, just not a popular)...

The way the ICHTHYS is drawn is not exclusive to Christians (with the exception of when the eye is drawn as a cross). Certain pagan religions have used this outline to represent genetalia of a goddess. The drawing of the fish as a symbol of fertility goddesses outdate Christianity...

Does the idea that a false gods have used this symbol first diminish the meaning we have given it today? Does the ICHTHYS now represent something different to you, or can you still associate the ideas you have attached to it above the prior meanings?

SO...

Do you think symbols expressing complex ideology have a place in Christianity?
Do you know the long history of the symbols you adopt?
What symbols have meaning for you?
 

epostle1

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The upside down cross is a case in point. It originally symbolized the crucifixion of Peter, who was crucified upside down. Satanists have stolen this symbol, and have given it a different meaning. To Satanists, the upside down cross is a symbol of Satan's desire to defeat Christianity, and nothing to do with Peter. We had it first, and their is nothing wrong with decorating a chair with it.

Before the Christians had the fish, Nineveh (You know, where Jonah went?) had Dagon, and his symbol was at times... You guessed it, the fish (well, grain too, another symbol used by Christians, just not a popular)...

The false god Dagon was part human from the waist up, fish from the waist down. That has been the prevailing notion. He has no fish mouth in most ancient depictions.

The word mitre derives from the Greek mitra, which signifies a headband or diadem. In the Old Testament, the High Priest and other priests wore a distinctive garb which included a mitre: "For Aaron and his sons, there were also woven tunics of fine linen; the mitre of fine linen; the ornate turbans of fine linen; drawers of linen (of fine linen twined); and sashes of variegated work made of fine linen twined and of violet, purple, and scarlet yarn, as the Lord had commanded Moses. The plate of the sacred diadem was made of pure gold and inscribed, as on a seal engraving: 'Sacred to the Lord.' It was tied over the mitre with the violet ribbon, as the Lord had commanded Moses" (Exodus 39:27-31; cf. Lev. 8:7-9).

Exactly when the Church adopted the mitre as part of the vesture of bishops is hard to pinpoint. One tradition holds that the mitre's usage dates to the time of the Apostles; other traditions place its first usage about the eighth or ninth centuries. Of course artists have taken the liberty to depict the apostles and the earliest saints who were bishops as wearing mitres. The first written mention of the mitre is in a bull issued by Pope Leo IX in the year 1049, when he granted Bishop Eberhard of Trier "the Roman mitre" as a sign of his authority and of the primacy of the Diocese of Trier. By 1100, a bishop customarily wore a mitre.
In the Latin Rite, the mitre originally was a headband with a veil, and eventually appeared more in its present triangular form pointing upward with two infulae or fans (two strips of cloth hanging from behind). Some suggest that the infulae originated from the sweatband that Greek athletes wore, which was wrapped around the forehead, tied behind the head in a knot with the two ends hanging down the back; since the victorious athlete was crowned with a laurel wreath, the whole headdress soon was seen as a sign of victory. The mitre took on a similar symbolic meaning. Such symbolism arises from St. Paul's analogy: AI have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. From now on a merited crown awaits me..." (2 Tm 4:7-8). Surely, the bishop should be leading his flock in the race to salvation to final victory in Heaven.

Over the centuries, mitres were elongated or embellished according to the times. For example, during the baroque period, mitres were very tall and were embellished with jewels. Also, please note that in the Eastern Rites, the bishops wear a mitre that looks like an ornamented round hat with a cross on top. source

The mitre the bishops wear has nothing to do with with the Philistines. We don't know much about the practices of the Philistines, but the Canaanites worshipped the same god. They practiced human sacrifice, ritual prostitution, homosexuality and self mutilation. Who would wear that on their head?
 

Sabitarian

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Just for information purposes you need to really read the Ten Commandments.
Ex 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
KJV
I see that symbols are not accepted by God according to this. However the present Church has appostacized so much already by adopting pagan symbols, who is going to notice anyway? Would you believe God will notice that you are not following His Commandments? The crown worn by the Pope is Dagon's crown taken from one of the pagan temples of Dagon. Would you believe that the statue of Christ and Mary in the Vatigan is really of Tammuze and his mother with the sun above them? All of the statuary in that infernal city is from pagan temples and great expense was required to bring them there.
Now you have the Word of God, you know Christ, telling you the will of the Father in His Ten Commandments or the word of the fallen church telling you they do not matter to God. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

veteran

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The idea of God's 'mark' in Ezekiel 9 is represented by the last Hebrew letter tav, which was anciently rendered as an X cross in paelo-Hebrew.

So yes, God does use symbols literally, even in that kind of spiritual application of Ezekiel 9 for those sealed with His mark.
 

Sabitarian

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veteran,
The sign, mark, seal come from the time when slaves were common as property. The mark or sign was on thier right hand and it told who, what and why. Who their master was, what his authority was and why he had that authority to keep slaves. There is only one place in the entire Bible where all of this is stated.
Deut 5:12-15
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
KJV
Ex 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
KJV
If you can find any other place in scripture where these requirements are met then you might be able to prove your doctrine is true, but since you can not, then your doctrine is false and God's is true.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

epostle1

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Just for information purposes you need to really read the Ten Commandments.
Ex 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
KJV
I see that symbols are not accepted by God according to this. However the present Church has appostacized so much already by adopting pagan symbols, who is going to notice anyway? Would you believe God will notice that you are not following His Commandments? The crown worn by the Pope is Dagon's crown taken from one of the pagan temples of Dagon. Would you believe that the statue of Christ and Mary in the Vatigan is really of Tammuze and his mother with the sun above them? All of the statuary in that infernal city is from pagan temples and great expense was required to bring them there.
Now you have the Word of God, you know Christ, telling you the will of the Father in His Ten Commandments or the word of the fallen church telling you they do not matter to God. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

God does not object to religious statuary, he objects to the worship of them. In fact, he commands the proper use of religious images.

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants and Sabbitarianists say that since we saw "no form" of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him. Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn't yet reveal himself visibly "in the form of any figure." Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.​

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).​

Deut. 5:8 - God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.​

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.​

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.​

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon's temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.​

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God's wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.​

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews' most solemn place of worship.​

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.​

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.​

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.​

Sabitarian, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have never seen a refutation of your false charge before, even though is is all over the Internet. It should be obvious to anyone with two functioning brain cells that your application of the Ten Commandments is in error. If this is how you interpret scripture, how can I take anything you say seriously?

The charge of idol worship continues to remain a false charge, so long as all who make this charge refuse to look inwards and see that they also worship the false god of self. You must be "right" and you put down everyone who disagrees with you.

The Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol. It is the image of a creature (bird or animal) that is worshipped as a god. One has to look at when the Law was given to the people to find the clue as to God's original meaning. The Hebrew had been rescued from Egypt by God. If you look closely at the ten plagues for instance you can see that each plague represented the destruction of the gods of Egypt. By bringing the plagues upon Egypt God was showing that He was mightier than any human understanding of a god. The Hebrew had been affected by these gods in Egypt and in their hearts they wanted to continue to follow these gods. The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

The false idols that we have today are not the statues of Jesus and Mary that one sees in a Church. For starters, Mary was truly a human person and the early Christians depicted both Mary and Jesus in their human image, as they saw them. The idols of paganism, on the other hand were idols that come from the imagination of the human mind. What we are confronted with today are the images of pop stars, movie stars, consumerism, materialism, flag worship, of sport stars, the worship of the body. Where is God in any of these images? These are the false gods of today. It is the false god called "ego" that is in conflict with the real image of God.

veteran,
The sign, mark, seal come from the time when slaves were common as property. The mark or sign was on thier right hand and it told who, what and why. Who their master was, what his authority was and why he had that authority to keep slaves. There is only one place in the entire Bible where all of this is stated.
Deut 5:12-15
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
KJV
Ex 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
KJV
If you can find any other place in scripture where these requirements are met then you might be able to prove your doctrine is true, but since you can not, then your doctrine is false and God's is true.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
None of your verses address the "TAU" sign in Ezekiel 9:6 that veteran pointed out. In the Hebrew alphabet, the "tau" sign is the shape of the cross. Those who had this mark were spared from slaughter. It had nothing to do with someone owning them.

If you worship on Saturday, fine. I am going to Mass today at 5:00 and it's Saturday. It fulfills my Sunday obligation. If you object to Sunday worship, fine, but using Saturday worship as a pat answer for every quote is a sign of an unhealthy obsession.

John 6:27 - Jesus says the Father has set His seal on Him. As the Father sets His seal on Jesus, so Jesus sets His seal on us on the sacrament of baptism, and later, in the sacrament of confirmation. (the "TAU" sign is made on the forehead with holy oil)

Rev. 9:4 - the locusts could not harm those with the seal of God upon their foreheads. See also Rev. 14:1 and Rev. 22:4.

Seventh-Day Adventism