Sabbath

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Raeneske

New Member
Sep 18, 2012
716
19
0
Axehead said:
<span style='color: #0000cd'>Where did you get this understanding and wisdom? From where in the Bible? </span>




<span style='color: #0000cd'>And why wouldn't the "teachers of the law" know how to keep the Sabbath? Can you tell us how the Lord wants us to keep it? Tell us all the little details. What you can do and what you can't do. Where you can go and where you can't go. What you can think or talk about and what you can't. </span>

<span style='color: #0000cd'>Don't you know that everything a Christian does that is not sin is a holy thing? When we work, we are working for the Lord and obeying Him to honor our employer and be a good witness of Christ, not bringing shame to His name. </span>

<span style='color: #0000cd'>What about picking corn on the Sabbath day? That would be "going out of your place to gather food". Seems to me that you could equate someone earning some money on the Sabbath so they could go to the grocery store and pick a bag of corn out of the freezer and buy it for their hungry family. </span>



<span style='color: #0000cd'>Picking corn looks like work to anybody, not just the Pharisees. Doesn't picking corn look like work to you? </span>

<span style='color: #0000cd'>You are very confused young man. Most of what you just said does not make sense. </span>
<ul class='bbcol decimal'><li><span style='color: #0000cd'>Why are there moral commandments in the "Ceremonial law". </span>
</li><li><span style='color: #0000cd'>If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "God's laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws?</span>
</li><li><span style='color: #0000cd'>If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why is the book of the law filled with moral laws not contained in the 10 commandments?</span>
</li><li><span style='color: #0000cd'>If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why does the Law of God include new moons, solemn feast days: Ps 81:3-4? Do you keep those? </span>
</li><li><span style='color: #0000cd'>If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, and a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt 12:1-14; Mk 2:23f, Lk 13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn 5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-16</span></li></ul>

<span style='color: #0000cd'>I get to enjoy the Sabbath 365 days a year because the Lord is my Sabbath Rest. </span><br />
<br />
<span style='color: #0000cd'>Axehead</span>


Thank you GG,

I have been blessed by your posts too and that you have come to know Christ as your Sabbath.
I get my understanding from the Bible. I agree with His teaching that:

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Have you not read what Jesus said? None seemed to understand the law in Jesus's day, not even the Pharisees, with their pretended holiness. So yes, the teachers of the law didn't understand a thing.

Matthew 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Had they actually understood what the law meant, they wouldn't have been found placing their tradition in place of a specific commandment. Which is lawful on the Sabbath days, to save a life, or to kill?

Mark 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

If it is lawful, does that mean the Sabbath was broken? Absolutely not. Jesus defended the true meaning of every single precept in that law. He never broke the Sabbath, but broke their narrow minded views of the Sabbath. They could not understand mercy and truth. Why do you think they (the Pharisees) held their peace at Jesus's question? Because Jesus was right. It is lawful to save a life on the Sabbath. It is lawful to pray with people, and go to synagogues.

Luke 6:1-5 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days? And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him; How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

This is why the disciples are cleared. This is the equivalent of walking with a preacher to who knows where, and you are hungry, and you pick an apple and you eat it. The second a Pharisee saw it, they would then say, "Look, law breakers! You are doing work, by picking that apple!" How ridiculous is that? Mighty ridiculous.

I don't get why your posts are siding with the Pharisees. You can agree with Jesus on the other points of the law, as He explains their true meaning and depth, but upon this point, it is as a stumbling block. As He explains the true understanding of keeping the Sabbath, you call me confused and then side with His accusers. You agree with the Pharisees, that Jesus broke the Sabbath? I am not the one confused here. I side with the Lord, He was right. He did not break the Sabbath Day. He did all of which was lawful to do on the Sabbath.

The Lord tells you what is good for the Sabbath:

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

That is one such place. Receive your principles of which is good, from the Bible.

A Christian does shame the Lord's name, when he places his employment over the Lord's direct commandment. Going to work on the Sabbath Day is not honourable, it's quite dishonourable. It's saying, "I want nothing to do with you Sabbath Lord, I will continue my business transactions on this very day."

A Christian who knows about the Sabbath, is to prepare for the Sabbath. The fact that you have to go to the store and buy the daily need of food proves you have not prepared for the Sabbath. You therefore have broken the Sabbath. That is one of the principles founded in Exodus, about not going out to gather food. And no, the disciples weren't going out to gather food. They were just out with the Lord, and became hungry. They picked corn and ate. They did not gather a whole bunch, take some home, and started cooking a meal.

I have shown you the distinction between the 10 Commandments, and the cermonial law. Why do you continue your questions, "Why do you not... Or..."

I don't have confusion. Jesus showed what is lawful to do on the Sabbath. The spiritual work Jesus was doing, and the healing was not sinful. It is lawful, therefore the commadment was not broken.

As I said before, it is not as if the ceremonial law is absolutely devoid of moral things to do. There were statutes and judgements.

The Sabbath happens on the 7th Day of the week, not 365 days a year. Who has power to bless a day, and set it apart for holy use? Man, or God?

The 7th Day Sabbath, you do not understand. It is my hope, you do understand the 7th Day Sabbath. You seem to be taking in, and agreeing with others of a sabbath being 365 days a year. I put forth to you, toss that away, and listen to Jesus. Read the Old Testament, and then listen to Jesus explain in greater depth that which we could not understand. What Jesus did, did not break the Sabbath. His own words, "It is lawful", prove that He did not break the Sabbath. So, if you still want to say after this post, "It is not lawful", you are doing 2 things:

1) Rejecting Jesus's explanation, and greater depth and understanding.

2) Condemning Jesus with His accusers and murderers, that He broke the law.

mjrhealth said:
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb_10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can <span class='bbc_underline'>never with those sacrifices</span> which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb_10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not,<span class='bbc_underline'> neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;</span>

Nothing else to say.

In all His love
See my previous post in regards to the seperation between the 10 Commandment Law, and the Ceremonial Law.
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
Raeneske said:
I don't get why your posts are siding with the Pharisees. You can agree with Jesus on the other points of the law, as He explains their true meaning and depth, but upon this point, it is as a stumbling block. As He explains the true understanding of keeping the Sabbath, you call me confused and then side with His accusers. You agree with the Pharisees, that Jesus broke the Sabbath? I am not the one confused here. I side with the Lord, He was right. He did not break the Sabbath Day. He did all of which was lawful to do on the Sabbath.
Actually, I don't side with the Pharisees. I have no problem with the disciples working to pick corn on the Sabbath and evidently Jesus did not mind, either.

Raeneske said:
The Lord tells you what is good for the Sabbath:

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

That is one such place. Receive your principles of which is good, from the Bible.

A Christian does shame the Lord's name, when he places his employment over the Lord's direct commandment. Going to work on the Sabbath Day is not honourable, it's quite dishonourable. It's saying, "I want nothing to do with you Sabbath Lord, I will continue my business transactions on this very day."
That is what it says to you. But in the New Covenant Jesus goes with us everywhere and all of daily life is spiritual. We don't compartmentalize Jesus Christ.
Raeneske said:
A Christian who knows about the Sabbath, is to prepare for the Sabbath. The fact that you have to go to the store and buy the daily need of food proves you have not prepared for the Sabbath. You therefore have broken the Sabbath. That is one of the principles founded in Exodus, about not going out to gather food. And no, the disciples weren't going out to gather food. They were just out with the Lord, and became hungry. They picked corn and ate. They did not gather a whole bunch, take some home, and started cooking a meal.
Why didn't Jesus chastise His disciples for not being prepared and telling them that they should have picked corn the day before?

Raeneske said:
I have shown you the distinction between the 10 Commandments, and the cermonial law. Why do you continue your questions, "Why do you not... Or..."

I don't have confusion. Jesus showed what is lawful to do on the Sabbath. The spiritual work Jesus was doing, and the healing was not sinful. It is lawful, therefore the commadment was not broken.

As I said before, it is not as if the ceremonial law is absolutely devoid of moral things to do. There were statutes and judgements.

The Sabbath happens on the 7th Day of the week, not 365 days a year. Who has power to bless a day, and set it apart for holy use? Man, or God?
Yes, but the Lord of the Sabbath is with His children 365 days a year, not just on one day a week.

You are living in OT precepts of the law having not received Jesus as your rest.
Raeneske said:
The 7th Day Sabbath, you do not understand. It is my hope, you do understand the 7th Day Sabbath. You seem to be taking in, and agreeing with others of a sabbath being 365 days a year. I put forth to you, toss that away, and listen to Jesus. Read the Old Testament, and then listen to Jesus explain in greater depth that which we could not understand. What Jesus did, did not break the Sabbath. His own words, "It is lawful", prove that He did not break the Sabbath. So, if you still want to say after this post, "It is not lawful", you are doing 2 things:

1) Rejecting Jesus's explanation, and greater depth and understanding.

2) Condemning Jesus with His accusers and murderers, that He broke the law.
Unfortunately, it is the other way around. You are at variance with the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, yet you think Jesus affirms your stance to judge others who are not keeping the outward Sabbath.

All the best,
Axehead
 

Raeneske

New Member
Sep 18, 2012
716
19
0
Axehead said:
Actually, I don't side with the Pharisees. I have no problem with the disciples working to pick corn on the Sabbath and evidently Jesus did not mind, either.

That is what it says to you. But in the New Covenant Jesus goes with us everywhere and all of daily life is spiritual. We don't compartmentalize Jesus Christ.
Why didn't Jesus chastise His disciples for not being prepared and telling them that they should have picked corn the day before?

Yes, but the Lord of the Sabbath is with His children 365 days a year, not just on one day a week.

You are living in OT precepts of the law having not received Jesus as your rest.

Unfortunately, it is the other way around. You are at variance with the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, yet you think Jesus affirms your stance to judge others who are not keeping the outward Sabbath.

All the best,
Axehead
This is the end of our discussion Axehead. All which I could prayerfully and honestly post, that I have. "This is what you say..." No, Axehead, it's what scripture says. I posted that from Isaiah, which is also completely in context. That is what scripture says, I am not fighting what it says.

If you feel you are being judged, then I urge you to reconsider what could possibly make you feel judged. I have not judged you. Have I pointed out your sin in transgressing the law? Yes, this I have done. All my appeals have come from scripture. The arguement regarding Jesus as being the Sabbath, does not come from scripture, nor has other arguement (not specifically yours) about the Sabbath pointing to the cross come from scripture. These are manmade understandings, not pointing to scripture in the least bit.

I know where Jesus stands regarding His Holy Sabbath. If it Did not matter, His Commandments would not be found Heaven (Last verse of Revelation 11). We part on understanding here.


Rae~
 

John_8:32

New Member
Nov 9, 2012
248
12
0
Actually, I don't side with the Pharisees. I have no problem with the disciples working to pick corn on the Sabbath and evidently Jesus did not mind, either.

That is what it says to you. But in the New Covenant Jesus goes with us everywhere and all of daily life is spiritual. We don't compartmentalize Jesus Christ.
Why didn't Jesus chastise His disciples for not being prepared and telling them that they should have picked corn the day before?

Yes, but the Lord of the Sabbath is with His children 365 days a year, not just on one day a week.

You are living in OT precepts of the law having not received Jesus as your rest.

Unfortunately, it is the other way around. You are at variance with the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, yet you think Jesus affirms your stance to judge others who are not keeping the outward Sabbath.

All the best,
Axehead
Show me where Jesus said NOT to keep the Sabbath. I haven't been able to find that one.
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
Raeneske said:
This is the end of our discussion Axehead. All which I could prayerfully and honestly post, that I have. "This is what you say..." No, Axehead, it's what scripture says. I posted that from Isaiah, which is also completely in context. That is what scripture says, I am not fighting what it says.

If you feel you are being judged, then I urge you to reconsider what could possibly make you feel judged. I have not judged you. Have I pointed out your sin in transgressing the law? Yes, this I have done. All my appeals have come from scripture. The arguement regarding Jesus as being the Sabbath, does not come from scripture, nor has other arguement (not specifically yours) about the Sabbath pointing to the cross come from scripture. These are manmade understandings, not pointing to scripture in the least bit.

I know where Jesus stands regarding His Holy Sabbath. If it Did not matter, His Commandments would not be found Heaven (Last verse of Revelation 11). We part on understanding here.


Rae~
Raeneske, did Jesus fulfill the law and the prophets or not?

Also, you did not comment on the disciples working on the Sabbath with Jesus right by their side. But, you know, that is the difference isn't it. Jesus the true REST was with them. That is why He said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath. He did not break it and he allowed His disciples "to do well" on it.

Where did Jesus or the Apostles instruct New Covenant believers to keep the Sabbath?

Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

You can come to the law or to the "end of the law", which is Christ. I choose Christ.
 

Thegoodground

Member
Nov 15, 2012
81
2
8
Raeneske said:
Spiritual creation? Sounds a little bit like you're calling Christ a created being... Not sure what you mean by that.
All living creatures made of flesh and blood are created beings.

Matt 1:1 is plainly clear to all.

Raeneske said:
Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, set the day apart for Holy Use, in creation week. While it is a day for rest, it was also a day for Holy use. The Sabbath is both natural and spiritual.
Yes and this is why Jesus and the disciples did not practice a Holy Day during their ministry as every day was treated Holy and alike.

Raeneske said:
The day is not a shadow.
Everything under the Law including all Sabbaths and feast were a shadow. Col 2:17

Raeneske said:
I have proved this countless times.
Nothing of the sort - you cling to an old Law that perished. Heb 8:13

Raeneske said:
The shadows pointed to the cross. Where does Exodus 20:11 point? Thankyou.
Can I ask you to show us when did "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it!" at Creation or under Moses when Gen 2 was written?

Raeneske said:
The perfect law of liberty is a transcript of that Holy Character. It is a transcript of Jesus Christ. Christ rested the 7th Day, and set it apart for Holy use.
Christ laboured to enter the spiritual rest and performed all the principles of the Sabbath day throughout his ministry.

Raeneske said:
Then as a human, Christ kept the Sabbath.
Show us where Christ kept the Sabbath?

Raeneske said:
James 2:10-12 tells you what the perfect law of liberty is. Liberty is not breaking the commandments. That's enslavement to the prince of darkness.
Yes we know the two royal commandments from which hangs all the Law and the Prophets.

Raeneske said:
Christ was not doing sinful work.
??? Strange comment

Raeneske said:
Christ was working in harmony with the Sabbath Commandment.
No, Christ was fulfilling the sign of that appointed day in his own body.

Raeneske said:
The Pharisees could not understand the spiritual nature of the Sabbath, at all. Therefore anything that looked like work to them, they freaked out for. That's why they couldn't understand the mercy involved in the Sabbath.
True, they only needed to see Christs walk everyday to see how they ought to have lived...but they were held under Law until it was removed.

Raeneske said:
They jumped up saying, "He's breaking the Sabbath, look at him heal!!!" Christians do the same thing today. "Look, see, Jesus broke the Sabbath".
I had a laugh at this comment, thanks Rae. Where has anyone in this tread stated Jesus broke the Sabbath?

This type of exaggeration leads to sin.

Raeneske said:
Why are they siding with the Pharisees? Because even they, Christians, do not understand the true spiritual nature of the law.

If they did, they could explain why Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath. They call Jesus the Sabbath. Jesus is not the Sabbath. Jesus is [/b]The Saviour[/b]. They say the Sabbath was a portrayel of the 1,000 years. I can agree to the fact that the Sabbath is a 6/1 approach, as is the world a 6,000/1,000 approach. But the obvious remains, does that 6/1 point to the cross, or does it specifically tell you itself, it points to creation week? Exodus 20:11.
Were all 10 commandments obey in Christ Jesus until his death

Yes or No?

Raeneske said:
Christ went about working for the Kingdom. Does that profane the Sabbath?
Its a strange line of question you put forward...you having an argument with yourself about something not stated?

This again is another little piece of evidence showing you lack Scriptual understanding whereby you need to fabricate stories and heresay to support your beliefs.

Raeneske said:
Does teaching the gospel, and healing the sick profane the Sabbath? No. Mercy, and using the day in a Holy Way, as it was set apart to be Holy, in Genesis.
We all have said over and over the Sabbath principles; yes every single one of them was manifested perfectly in Christ all the days of his life.

Raeneske said:
So, did Christ actually break the Sabbath? Not a chance.
Wow - you are persistant - speaking in your own little world about what? was this a conversation you were having with another and maybe in your own reasoning you have drifted off into "Rae's World" where every Christian who fails to heed a Law believe's Jesus was a Sabbath breaker, I dont know.


Raeneske said:
P.S. Don't ask, and set up distances to go please. Thankyou. That is legalism.
O Dear! So you admit the Sabbath contains legalism - Wow that's progress...so where does the legal requirements of the Sabbath begin and end?

You say dont ask me....and yet its in the Bible as recorded as truth.

Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. (Acts 1:12; Exod 16:29; Numbers 35:4,5)

So I will ask you again...how far can you walk on the Sabbath?

Raeneske said:
What did God tell them in Exodus not to go out of their places for? To gather food. What's that got to do with distance traveled? Nothing.

Numbers has nothing to do with the Sabbath. That is so out of context... What do the suburbs have to do with a Sabbath Day journey?
Great, so tell us how far is a Sabbath's day journey? You are the one who keeps this Law, so surely you can explain how far can one walk on the Sabbath day? Of course it must be according to the Law of Moses that we see your evidence.

TGG

p.s I am guessing you will return with an argument about keeping the Spirit of the Sabbath and not the Law of the Sabbath - hopefully this will point you to Christ.
 

Raeneske

New Member
Sep 18, 2012
716
19
0
Thegoodground said:
All living creatures made of flesh and blood are created beings.

Matt 1:1 is plainly clear to all.


Yes and this is why Jesus and the disciples did not practice a Holy Day during their ministry as every day was treated Holy and alike.


Everything under the Law including all Sabbaths and feast were a shadow. Col 2:17


Nothing of the sort - you cling to an old Law that perished. Heb 8:13


Can I ask you to show us when did "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it!" at Creation or under Moses when Gen 2 was written?


Christ laboured to enter the spiritual rest and performed all the principles of the Sabbath day throughout his ministry.


Show us where Christ kept the Sabbath?


Yes we know the two royal commandments from which hangs all the Law and the Prophets.


??? Strange comment


No, Christ was fulfilling the sign of that appointed day in his own body.


True, they only needed to see Christs walk everyday to see how they ought to have lived...but they were held under Law until it was removed.


I had a laugh at this comment, thanks Rae. Where has anyone in this tread stated Jesus broke the Sabbath?

This type of exaggeration leads to sin.


Were all 10 commandments obey in Christ Jesus until his death

Yes or No?


Its a strange line of question you put forward...you having an argument with yourself about something not stated?

This again is another little piece of evidence showing you lack Scriptual understanding whereby you need to fabricate stories and heresay to support your beliefs.


We all have said over and over the Sabbath principles; yes every single one of them was manifested perfectly in Christ all the days of his life.


Wow - you are persistant - speaking in your own little world about what? was this a conversation you were having with another and maybe in your own reasoning you have drifted off into "Rae's World" where every Christian who fails to heed a Law believe's Jesus was a Sabbath breaker, I dont know.



O Dear! So you admit the Sabbath contains legalism - Wow that's progress...so where does the legal requirements of the Sabbath begin and end?

You say dont ask me....and yet its in the Bible as recorded as truth.

Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. (Acts 1:12; Exod 16:29; Numbers 35:4,5)

So I will ask you again...how far can you walk on the Sabbath?


Great, so tell us how far is a Sabbath's day journey? You are the one who keeps this Law, so surely you can explain how far can one walk on the Sabbath day? Of course it must be according to the Law of Moses that we see your evidence.

TGG

p.s I am guessing you will return with an argument about keeping the Spirit of the Sabbath and not the Law of the Sabbath - hopefully this will point you to Christ.
Same post to you, as I left for Axehead.

This is the end of our discussion TGG. All which I could prayerfully and honestly post, that I have.

I know where Jesus stands regarding His Holy Sabbath. If it Did not matter, His Commandments would not be found Heaven (Last verse of Revelation 11). We part on understanding here.


Rae~
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
Raeneske said:
Same post to you, as I left for Axehead.

This is the end of our discussion TGG. All which I could prayerfully and honestly post, that I have.

I know where Jesus stands regarding His Holy Sabbath. If it Did not matter, His Commandments would not be found Heaven (Last verse of Revelation 11). We part on understanding here.


Rae~
Now you present a real conundrum here my dear Raeneske. Do you really want to say His commandments will be found in heaven?
And of course you think the Commandments of Jesus refer to the the ten commandments which are going to be in heaven. But if that is true, what is the use of "thou shalt not commit adultery", if there is no marriage in heaven? Lk 20:34-35

Why would that commandment be found in heaven?

Don't you see that Christ is the end of the law to all who believe? Jesus is the termination of the law. He is the end of the law because the Law leads up to Him!!

Who did Jesus preach the Law to?
He preached to those born under the Law (Gal_4:4-5) and to the Devil (Luke 4:4-12).

Those who insist that you must obey the commands of Jesus in order to be saved/blessed/forgiven/righteous/holy are assuming that you are either
and OT Israelite that never died (Time travel) or the devil.

Now, if you are one of these then I have no good news for you.You have been judged, condemned and disarmed and you have no future at all.

Gal_4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman,made under the law,
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

He fulfilled the Law then because He is "the end of the Law" to all those who believe, He appropriately nailed it to the cross.

Christ has become for us wisdom from God. He is our righteousness! He is our holiness! He is our redemption! Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Your righteousness and sanctification are found IN CHRIST!!

I am hoping that you are beginning to the see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ.

Axehead
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
When we find Christ we find the truth, as long as we avoid Him and lean on our own understanding we will remain in confusion and easily lead by false doctrines.

Cant disagree Axehead

In All His most abundant saving Garce and Love
 

Thegoodground

Member
Nov 15, 2012
81
2
8
Raeneske said:
Same post to you, as I left for Axehead.

This is the end of our discussion TGG. All which I could prayerfully and honestly post, that I have.

I know where Jesus stands regarding His Holy Sabbath. If it Did not matter, His Commandments would not be found Heaven (Last verse of Revelation 11). We part on understanding here.


Rae~
Error has run its course, as it did so often with those who contended with Christ. It was not about winning or losing, but Truth and Error.

Once you mature in the Gospel and cease from defending church teaching you will see how the "substance", all of it, including the 10 Commandments are found in Christ...many here have labour to show you such wisdom but this has proved unfruitful while you try to join old wineskins to the new.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13)

Paul was teaching that AD70 was only 7 years away and Jerusalem destroyed. The temple destroyed, sacrifices removed, Sabbaths gone - the Law is no more - Lam 2:9

TGG
 

John_8:32

New Member
Nov 9, 2012
248
12
0
Now you present a real conundrum here my dear Raeneske. Do you really want to say His commandments will be found in heaven?
And of course you think the Commandments of Jesus refer to the the ten commandments which are going to be in heaven. But if that is true, what is the use of "thou shalt not commit adultery", if there is no marriage in heaven? Lk 20:34-35
Hmmm,

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

So here is this great false church committing of all things, fornication. Physical, human marriage is a type of the church and Christ...

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Why would that commandment be found in heaven?

Don't you see that Christ is the end of the law to all who believe? Jesus is the termination of the law. He is the end of the law because the Law leads up to Him!!
And another twisting of the scripture...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

end:

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

From Jamison, Fawcett and Brown...

Romans 10:4

For Christ is the end — the object or aim.
of the law for — justifying
righteousness to every one that believeth — that is, contains within Himself all that the law demands for the justification of such as embrace Him, whether Jew or Gentile (Gal_3:24).

If you are going to misuse a scripture, at least have the decency to misuse one that is not so obvious.
Who did Jesus preach the Law to?
He preached to those born under the Law (Gal_4:4-5) and to the Devil (Luke 4:4-12).
You missed this part...

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Although I am sure you read this as...

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to destroy.
Those who insist that you must obey the commands of Jesus in order to be saved/blessed/forgiven/righteous/holy are assuming that you are either
and OT Israelite that never died (Time travel) or the devil.
Or simply one who is granted eternal life...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Now, if you are one of these then I have no good news for you.You have been judged, condemned and disarmed and you have no future at all.
Yep, the only thing we have to look forward to is eating of the Tree of Life.
Gal_4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman,made under the law,
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

He fulfilled the Law then because He is "the end of the Law" to all those who believe, He appropriately nailed it to the cross.
Just like playing football without rules or referees.
Christ has become for us wisdom from God. He is our righteousness! He is our holiness! He is our redemption! Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Your righteousness and sanctification are found IN CHRIST!!

I am hoping that you are beginning to the see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ.

Axehead
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What Does Colossians 2:14 Really Say?

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law! - Dr. Bob Thiel
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
John_8:32 said:
If you are going to misuse a scripture, at least have the decency to misuse one that is not so obvious.
You missed this part...

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Although I am sure you read this as...

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to destroy.Or simply one who is granted eternal life...
Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus was born under the law and preached to those under the law. Are you under the law? If you put yourself under the law you have fallen from grace and you are condemned because you break the law. If you live by the law you will be judged by it. Are you trusting in the law given by Moses or Grace and Truth brought to you by Jesus Christ? You cannot keep the law perfectly. So, either you trust in the Lord and allow Him to sanctify you by His Spirit and Word or you trust in yourself and your own efforts at keeping the law and sanctifying yourself.

John_8:32 said:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.Yep, the only thing we have to look forward to is eating of the Tree of Life.
Just like playing football without rules or referees.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
The commandments of Jesus are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. A person who lives this way, will not covet, commit adultery, or steal and murder (hate).


John_8:32 said:
Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law! - Dr. Bob Thiel
The requirements of keeping the law were wiped out. Jesus Christ, the Perfect One is the end of the law.

Have you ever heard of a law without a penalty? Because if you have, then it is not a law. There is no such thing as a law without a penalty. That is why those who are lawkeepers are bound to keep the whole law and if they offend or break one law then THEY ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THEM ALL.

Please give me an example of a law without a penalty. The very nature of a LAW is that it has a penalty. This notion (nonsense) by Sabbatarians and Hebrew Roots people that we were freed from the penalty of the law but not the Law itself is double-speak and twisting and corrupting of Scriptures.

Now, we follow a higher law but you don't want to follow the higher law base on the perfect work of Christ. A law of love and life in Christ. Because it requires total death to self and being a lawkeeper keeps the flesh (carnal man) alive and he gets to glory a little bit in his own "righteousness". You want to follow the "way of Cain". You are not 100% satisfied in and trusting in the Lord's sacrifice (Lamb of God), you want to bring your own sacrifice.


But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matt_9:13)

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (1 Cor_15:56)

Axehead
 

John_8:32

New Member
Nov 9, 2012
248
12
0
Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus was born under the law and preached to those under the law. Are you under the law? If you put yourself under the law you have fallen from grace and you are condemned because you break the law. If you live by the law you will be judged by it. Are you trusting in the law given by Moses or Grace and Truth brought to you by Jesus Christ? You cannot keep the law perfectly. So, either you trust in the Lord and allow Him to sanctify you by His Spirit and Word or you trust in yourself and your own efforts at keeping the law and sanctifying yourself.
So, the law that Christ said would not have a jot or tittle pass until heaven and earth passed away, has passed away? How about a little meanigful exegesis on Mat 5:17-19 for us poor wretches who believe what Christ said?
The commandments of Jesus are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. A person who lives this way, will not covet, commit adultery, or steal and murder (hate).
OK and then if he does do all these things, there is no penalty for it? After all, the Apostle Paul says...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

How about explaning those scriptures? Can you? And while you are at it, explain these...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

And then there is the little matter of Christ pointing out what His commandments are...

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And Paul was in lock step...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here we find that Paul is referring to the Commandments as comprising the two great laws, which are actually one. The law of love.


The requirements of keeping the law were wiped out. Jesus Christ, the Perfect One is the end of the law.
You keep parroting this verse, but refuse to understand what it says...

You apparently do not recognize JFB as knowing what they are talking about so how about Albert Barnes...

Romans 10:4

For Christ - This expression implies faith in Christ. This is the design of the discussion, to show that justification cannot be obtained by our own righteousness, but by faith in Christ. As no direct benefit results to people from Christ unless they believe on him, faith in him is implied where the word occurs in this connection.
Is the end of the law - The word translated “end” means what completes a thing, or renders it perfect; also the boundary, issue, or termination of anything, as the end of life, the result of a prophecy, etc.; Joh_13:1; Luk_22:37. It also means the design or object which is had in view; the principal purpose for which it was undertaken; 1Ti_1:5,” The end of the commandment is charity;” the main design or purpose of the command is to produce love; 1Pe_1:9, “The end of your faith, the salvation of your souls;” the main design or purpose of faith is to secure salvation; Rom_14:9, “To this end Christ both died,” etc. For this design or purpose. This is doubtless its meaning here. “The main design or object which the perfect obedience of the Law would accomplish, is accomplished by faith in Christ.” That is, perfect obedience to the Law would accomplish justification before God, secure his favor and eternal life. The same end is now accomplished by faith in Christ. The great design of both is the same; and the same great end is finally gained. This was the subject of discussion between the apostle and the Jews; and this is all that is necessary to understand in the case. Some have supposed that the word “end” refers to the ceremonial law; that Christ fulfilled it, and brought it to an end. Others, that he perfectly fulfilled the moral law. And others, that the Law in the end leads us to Christ, or that its design is to point us to him. All this is true, but not the truth taught in this passage. That is simple and plain, that by faith in Christ the same end is accomplished in regard to our justification, that would be by perfect obedience to the moral law.




Have you ever heard of a law without a penalty? Because if you have, then it is not a law. There is no such thing as a law without a penalty. That is why those who are lawkeepers are bound to keep the whole law and if they offend or break one law then THEY ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THEM ALL.
???

You ever read Rom 6:23?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If the law is done away, then what does this verse mean? There is no penalty when there is no law, so we all have eternal life inherit and do not need Christ?




Please give me an example of a law without a penalty. The very nature of a LAW is that it has a penalty. This notion (nonsense) by Sabbatarians and Hebrew Roots people that we were freed from the penalty of the law but not the Law itself is double-speak and twisting and corrupting of Scriptures.
I do not believe in such a thing, but you , my friend seem to believe in penalty without law. That is equally impossible.





Now, we follow a higher law but you don't want to follow the higher law base on the perfect work of Christ. A law of love and life in Christ. Because it requires total death to self and being a lawkeeper keeps the flesh (carnal man) alive and he gets to glory a little bit in his own "righteousness". You want to follow the "way of Cain". You are not 100% satisfied in and trusting in the Lord's sacrifice (Lamb of God), you want to bring your own sacrifice.


But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matt_9:13)
And what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So in order to have sin, there must be law. You keep insisting there is no law but there is sin in direct contradiction to Paul in the book of Romans.

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (1 Cor_15:56)

Axehead
So, if there is no law as you suggest, there is no sin and therefore no death. The law simply defines what sin is. It tells us what is right and wrong. Justification, on the other hand, is from Christ...

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This passage says that we are justified by His blood, reconciled to God by His death and saved by His life. Death comes from sin, verse 12. Grace is not exclusive to law, grace is what we need for having broken the law. If there is no law, as you claim, there is no sin (Rom4:15 & 5:13) If there is no sin, then there is no need for grace (Rom 5:15). And so with that let me quote Paul one more time...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
For those who would like to keep the sabbath,

http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm

Basic set of rules.note to break any rule is death there is no substitute for you, Jesus did not die for you to "keep the Law".

What troubles me Raeneske, after re reading some of your posts. is that you have such a grasp of the truth, yet you have this stumbling block laid before you. Its such a subtle thing but its the difference between life and death. satan is good at these subtle things, thats how he deceived Eve, and look what that has done to us.

If you say I must keep the sabbath because its the law,than you are under the law and as such, ( see above web site), but if you say to God,"because I love you I am going to give this day to you", than its love not the law, and if you stumble you are covered by our Lords grace. Mind you if you keep one law you must keep them all, every 620 or so impossible for man.

Again we must take things to God and not lean on our own understanding, God is not the author of confusion.

In all His most abundant Grace
 

John_8:32

New Member
Nov 9, 2012
248
12
0
For those who would like to keep the sabbath,

http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm

Basic set of rules.note to break any rule is death there is no substitute for you, Jesus did not die for you to "keep the Law".
Since when did this become the Bible? I prefer the scripture to someone's opinion. Why do you think Jesus corrected the scribes and pharisees?

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.


What troubles me Raeneske, after re reading some of your posts. is that you have such a grasp of the truth, yet you have this stumbling block laid before you. Its such a subtle thing but its the difference between life and death. satan is good at these subtle things, thats how he deceived Eve, and look what that has done to us.

If you say I must keep the sabbath because its the law,than you are under the law and as such, ( see above web site),
Instead of the putting this stumbling block before Raeneske, how about referring to the scripture.

but if you say to God,"because I love you I am going to give this day to you", than its love not the law, and if you stumble you are covered by our Lords grace. Mind you if you keep one law you must keep them all, every 620 or so impossible for man.
How many? And what is wrong with...

Exo 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

You don't have a problem with that one do you? How about...

Lev 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Lev 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Not a bad way to conduct business is it? boy I wish Wall Street were under the burden of this one. Then there is...

Lev 13:2 When a man shall have in the skin of his flesh a rising, a scab, or bright spot, and it be in the skin of his flesh like the plague of leprosy; then he shall be brought unto Aaron the priest, or unto one of his sons the priests:
Lev 13:3 And the priest shall look on the plague in the skin of the flesh: and when the hair in the plague is turned white, and the plague in sight be deeper than the skin of his flesh, it is a plague of leprosy: and the priest shall look on him, and pronounce him unclean.
Lev 13:4 If the bright spot be white in the skin of his flesh, and in sight be not deeper than the skin, and the hair thereof be not turned white; then the priest shall shut up him that hath the plague seven days:

Right about now with influenza running wild, the laws of quarantine look pretty good to me. Oh the horror of these burdensome laws, I should be free to infect anyone I want to.


Again we must take things to God and not lean on our own understanding, God is not the author of confusion.

In all His most abundant Grace
Boy, sometimes out of the mouths of babes. God is the author of order by law, not confusion by anarchy.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Boy, sometimes out of the mouths of babes. God is the author of order by law, not confusion by anarchy.

God demands nothing of man, God simply asks that we learn from Him so we can become like Jesus, His son so that we can become sons. God is not a hard taskmaster as so many would make Him out to be. If you choose to keep teh Sabbath, fine but do not make it a stumbling block for anyone else, it servers no purpose but pleases the flesh, the flesh proffits nothng, keeping the sabbath will not save you or add to your salvation, but it will be a burden that you must carry alone.

But again seek Jesus while He can be found, He isnt hiding in your church or the bible.

In All His Love
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
mjrhealth said:
For those who would like to keep the sabbath,

http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm

Basic set of rules.note to break any rule is death there is no substitute for you, Jesus did not die for you to "keep the Law".

What troubles me Raeneske, after re reading some of your posts. is that you have such a grasp of the truth, yet you have this stumbling block laid before you. Its such a subtle thing but its the difference between life and death. satan is good at these subtle things, thats how he deceived Eve, and look what that has done to us.

If you say I must keep the sabbath because its the law,than you are under the law and as such, ( see above web site), but if you say to God,"because I love you I am going to give this day to you", than its love not the law, and if you stumble you are covered by our Lords grace. Mind you if you keep one law you must keep them all, every 620 or so impossible for man.

Again we must take things to God and not lean on our own understanding, God is not the author of confusion.

In all His most abundant Grace
The stumbling block for Raeneske is the "Law of Christ". He doesn't understand what it is.

John_8:32 said:
So, the law that Christ said would not have a jot or tittle pass until heaven and earth passed away, has passed away? How about a little meanigful exegesis on Mat 5:17-19 for us poor wretches who believe what Christ said?

OK and then if he does do all these things, there is no penalty for it? After all, the Apostle Paul says...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

How about explaning those scriptures? Can you? And while you are at it, explain these...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

And then there is the little matter of Christ pointing out what His commandments are...

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus is the end of the Law for those who believe in Him.

The law of course still exists if they want to put themselves under it or if a Christian allows himself to be "bewitched" as Paul puts it and then they will fall from grace. Because they did not receive the Spirit by the works of the law. They received the Spirit by faith if indeed they received the Spirit. I have always thought that Paul's selection of the word "bewitched" was a divine inspiration because you can show someone the simplicity of the God's word yet they act like they are under a spell and just cannot break free from it.

The Law that Believers are under is the Law of Christ. I will explain that further down. Actually, the Bible explains it.

Christ was born under the law and preached to those under the law. He pretty much showed the rich young ruler that though he thought he was keeping the commandments, he really was not and could not.

Matt_19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This may have been the first time in this young man's life that he ever understood that he could not keep the law and that he was greedy and covetous. Jesus was demonstrating that the law cannot bring life and that the strength of sin is the law.

Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Regarding the rich young ruler:
Matt_19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So, if thou wilt be perfect under the law, then you must be perfect in the law just like Jesus was and this is an impossibility. You cannot have law and grace at the same time. That is spiritual adultery. Read Romans 7:1-4. Hopefully, the realization that you cannot be perfect will cause you to fall upon the mercy of God, which is Jesus Christ and let His Spirit work in you rather than you working by the flesh to accomplish your checklist each day.
John_8:32 said:
And Paul was in lock step...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here we find that Paul is referring to the Commandments as comprising the two great laws, which are actually one. The law of love.
Lockstep? From Paul: Gal_4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

The verse before is this: Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Tell me something, if you love others with the love of God, will you commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness or covet?

Of course not. And this is what Paul was explaining about how LOVE FULFILLS the LAW. Do you know how you can know that? Because in Romans_13:9, Paul goes on to say, "IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT IT IS BRIEFLY COMPREHENDED IN THIS SAYING, NAMELY, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF". (bold for emphasis).

Rom_13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Are you beginning to see that Paul does not have checklist of commandments that he follows? He emphasizes (not really caring to write all the commandments out, because it is not necessary or important) that "if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying" (which is not even one of the 10 commandments but encompasses six of them) that "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".

When you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and you neighbor as yourself you are fulfilling the law. And you can only do this by the Spirit of Christ. All commandments are "briefly comprehended in this", the Law of Christ, which is the 2 commandments of loving God and loving your neighbor.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
John_8:32 said:
You keep parroting this verse, but refuse to understand what it says...

You apparently do not recognize JFB as knowing what they are talking about so how about Albert Barnes...

Romans 10:4

For Christ - This expression implies faith in Christ. This is the design of the discussion, to show that justification cannot be obtained by our own righteousness, but by faith in Christ.

Well, amen!!

As no direct benefit results to people from Christ unless they believe on him, faith in him is implied where the word occurs in this connection.
Is the end of the law - The word translated “end” means what completes a thing, or renders it perfect; also the boundary, issue, or termination of anything, as the end of life, the result of a prophecy, etc.; Joh_13:1; Luk_22:37. It also means the design or object which is had in view; the principal purpose for which it was undertaken; 1Ti_1:5,” The end of the commandment is charity;” the main design or purpose of the command is to produce love; 1Pe_1:9, “The end of your faith, the salvation of your souls;” the main design or purpose of faith is to secure salvation; Rom_14:9, “To this end Christ both died,” etc. For this design or purpose. This is doubtless its meaning here. “The main design or object which the perfect obedience of the Law would accomplish, is accomplished by faith in Christ.” That is, perfect obedience to the Law would accomplish justification before God, secure his favor and eternal life. The same end is now accomplished by faith in Christ.

AMEN!! DID YOU READ THIS?

The great design of both is the same; and the same great end is finally gained. This was the subject of discussion between the apostle and the Jews; and this is all that is necessary to understand in the case. Some have supposed that the word “end” refers to the ceremonial law; that Christ fulfilled it, and brought it to an end. Others, that he perfectly fulfilled the moral law. And others, that the Law in the end leads us to Christ, or that its design is to point us to him. All this is true, but not the truth taught in this passage. That is simple and plain, that by faith in Christ the same end is accomplished in regard to our justification, that would be by perfect obedience to the moral law.

???

You ever read Rom 6:23?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If the law is done away, then what does this verse mean? There is no penalty when there is no law, so we all have eternal life inherit and do not need Christ?

I do not believe in such a thing, but you , my friend seem to believe in penalty without law. That is equally impossible.
Yes, of course I have read Romans 6:23, but as this was a letter without chapter designations so please continue to read the letter.
So, the wages of sin is death.

Rom_7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Then Paul talks about how the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth. So, does the law have dominion over Christians? I want you to answer this question? I won't tell you the answer. You are welcome to read more of Romans 7 and if you do you will find the answer. I will check back to see what your answer is.

Here is the question again: Does the law have dominion over someone who has received Christ and is walking by the Spirit? (Yes or No)

John_8:32 said:
And what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So in order to have sin, there must be law. You keep insisting there is no law but there is sin in direct contradiction to Paul in the book of Romans.

So, if there is no law as you suggest, there is no sin and therefore no death. The law simply defines what sin is. It tells us what is right and wrong. Justification, on the other hand, is from Christ...
Why do you and Raeneske think that those who are not under the law are sinning? (Oh yeah, because they are not observing the law). But do you realize that Christ still commands obedience for those who walk by the Spirit and not the flesh?

1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


So in order to have sin, there must be law. You keep insisting there is no law but there is sin in direct contradiction to Paul in the book of Romans.
Sin is anything that is not of God. Where was the Law when Adam sinned? The Law was the words out of God's mouth. Thou shalt not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the consequence came from God's mouth, too. "Or thou wilt surely die".

So, if we are walking by the Spirit we will obey the Spirit. We don't follow a rule book. Don't worry, the Spirit won't miss anything and will lead you into all Truth and it is your responsibility to obey the Spirit. That is how you keep your relationship with the Lord, right.

How do you obey the truth? Through the Spirit.

1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Jesus is the truth. He is ALL of the TRUTH and will communicate to each child of God regarding how they should walk. If Jesus tells you to pick some corn on the Sabbath then who would be so audacious to argue with Jesus and say He is wrong?

So, if there is no law as you suggest, there is no sin and therefore no death. The law simply defines what sin is. It tells us what is right and wrong. Justification, on the other hand, is from Christ...
Of course there is sin. Sin is anything that is not of God, not of Christ. Right?

Sin is disobedience to the voice of the Lord in one's heart and His voice will not contradict His written word. If a Believer is thinking of coveting in his heart, don't you think the Spirit of God is going to speak to him to correct him and lead him to put to death the deeds of the flesh?
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Because we know that no one is justified by the deeds of the law.
Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Adam's sin was disobedience to the Word of God spoken to him.

Have you heard of the Law of Christ?
John_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John_8:32 said:
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This passage says that we are justified by His blood, reconciled to God by His death and saved by His life. Death comes from sin, verse 12. Grace is not exclusive to law, grace is what we need for having broken the law. If there is no law, as you claim, there is no sin (Rom4:15 & 5:13) If there is no sin, then there is no need for grace (Rom 5:15). And so with that let me quote Paul one more time...

Amen! Saved by His life!

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
We are to follow the Law of Christ. Love God and love your neighbor. All your motivations and actions should be governed by the Spirit who will lead you to love the Lord God and your neighbor as yourself. You establish the law by walking in love with faith towards God.
Gal_6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

If we sin, we are not put to death because we are not living by the Law but rather by Faith in Christ's propitiatory sacrifice and "we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the righteous".

God will chasten and scourge His sons to correct them and get them back on the "highway of holiness". He will convict His sons and lead them back to the law. No, that is not right is it? He will lead His sons back to Himself where there is forgiveness and mercy in time of need.

There are plenty of warnings for the Church in the NT and you can even look at Jesus' letters to the 7 churches in Revelation. Here is one particular warning. The law of sowing and reaping.
Gal_6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And example of the Law of Christ: I love this exchange with a scribe who seemed to "get it". Jesus is taking two commands, one from the 10 commandments and 1 from the law of Moses and is fusing them together in what is known as the "Law of Christ".

Mar_12:28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Jesus says there is no other commandment greater the first two commandments. Not the first 2 of the 10 commandments, but the first 2 that Jesus thought were important.

Jesus brought the OT LAW to completion and conclusion. All of the OT Law can be be placed in the two categories of LOVING GOD and LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR. This cannot be disputed as it is explained many times in the NT.

In place of the Old Testament Law, Christians are to obey the law of Christ. Rather than trying to remember the over 600+ individual commandments in the Old Testament Law, Christians are simply to focus on loving God and loving others. As we obey these two commands, we will be fulfilling everything that God requires of us. That is what Jesus said, not me.

If you are of the law your faith is made void.
Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

What does Paul say at the end of his list of the fruits of the Spirit?
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. There is no law against the fruits of the Spirit.

That is why Abraham could be declared righteous even though he was not circumcised or observant of the Sabbath. Yes, one of the fruits of the Spirit is FAITH.
Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Christ freed us from the bondage of the hundreds of commands in the Old Testament Law and instead calls on us to love. 1_John 4:7-8 declares, “ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. ” 1_John 5:3 continues, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (These are the commandments of Christ. You probably got that by now).

Some use the fact that we are not under the Old Testament Law as an excuse to sin. The Apostle Paul addresses this very issue in Romans chapter 5. “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. ? By no means!” (
Romans 6:15). For the follower of Christ, the avoidance of sin is to be accomplished out of love for God and love for others. Love is to be our motivation.

When we recognize the value of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf, our response is to be love, gratitude, and obedience. When we understand the sacrifice Jesus made for us and others, our response is to be to follow His example in expressing love to others. Our motivation for overcoming sin should be love, not a desire to legalistically obey a series of commandments. We are to obey the law of Christ because we love Him, not so that we can check off a list of commands that we have successfully obeyed.

Axehead
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Its all about Love, but its hard to find love in thsi world and what man calls love doesnt even begin to compare to teh Love that God has for us. Truly we should all be at His feet thanking Him for the grace He has given us an to teh Love that Jesus had that caused Him to go to the cross knowing what would happen, knowing that even after He did all that, men would srill keep the old ways and not accept His work, still follow after men and other religions and not go to Him, not sit at His feet and learn nor enter into His rest. The flesh is a terrible thing yet it was needed so God had a way to save us.

In All His Love
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
mjrhealth said:
Its all about Love, but its hard to find love in thsi world and what man calls love doesnt even begin to compare to teh Love that God has for us. Truly we should all be at His feet thanking Him for the grace He has given us an to teh Love that Jesus had that caused Him to go to the cross knowing what would happen, knowing that even after He did all that, men would srill keep the old ways and not accept His work, still follow after men and other religions and not go to Him, not sit at His feet and learn nor enter into His rest. The flesh is a terrible thing yet it was needed so God had a way to save us.

In All His Love
It really is all about love. All you have to do is read the Gospel to see that Jesus is not putting any "trips" on men. And read Paul and the Apostles, especially the very first major church council where they did not put any "trips" on the Gentile believers except to abstain from meat offered to idols and flee fornication.


Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

If there would be a PERFECT place to lay on the Gentiles, tithing and the Sabbath, this would be it, but the Apostles were silent.

God, who is merciful and loving, wants His children to walk as He walked, and often love and mercy will require you to work in the "cornfields" on the Sabbath in order to help others.