The pre-tribulational rapture

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jeffweeder

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Yes, our gathering to him is the rapture.

Ok, great.
So why does Paul say that the apostasy or departure has to happen prior to the Lords coming to gather his saints?

The Lords coming and our rapture to him are inseperable from each other......just as the apostasy / departure from the faith and the man of sin coming are.
God bless.
 

oliver

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So why does Paul say that the apostasy or departure has to happen prior to the Lords coming to gather his saints?

He doesn't! He says it has to come before the Day of the Lord.

The Lord's coming to meet his church in the air is not the same as his coming to earth in wrath to begin his kingdom.
 

jeffweeder

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He doesn't! He says it has to come before the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, but he doesnt say that. He specifically says that it is about the Lord coming and gathering his own after the apostasy and the man of sin being revealed.


"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [sup]2 [/sup]that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. [sup]3 [/sup]Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,"


If you back up 2 chapters to 1 thess 5, the day of the Lord is about Jesus coming like a thief, in the hope that we will be those who are awake and escape the sudden destruction of what is the final judgment.
This same warning is issued to us in rev 16, as the final bowl of judgment is poured out on a Jesus Christ rejecting world.
Rev 16
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.") 16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
 
The Chapter in between (2thess 1) only serves to support the conclusion i am coming to, as refered to in an earlier post.

 
God is patient now, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance before Jesus comes to render to everyman his eternal destiny at the final judgment.
Behold, the judge standeth at the door.
Today is the day to get saved because when Christ Jesus comes again there will be no tomorrow.The whole point of evangelism is preach the Gospel to all peoples....and then the end will come.
 
Jn 12
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Acts 17
 
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness
through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Christ Jesus is seen to be judging the world on the fixed day in Matt 25, when he comes again a second time to seperate the sheep from the goats, and in Matt 13 the wheat from the tares.
The result of these scriptures is exactly the same ....,either eternal glory or shame at the Great White Throne judgment.


Matt 13
The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, [sup]42 [/sup]and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [sup]43 [/sup]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 25
[sup] [/sup]“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;.....................

[sup]46 [/sup]These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Rev 20
[sup]15 [/sup]And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

tgwprophet

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That's a little more than what I said. My point is that while it was well thought out and well written, there were many points made in the OP that run contrary to what the Bible says, and that those who are in agreement with his post may want to exercise some discernment.
There's no prize for winning an argument on a message board. It's important to recognize what we're discussing and debating is very real, and there will be real consequences for those who simply use the Bible as a means for promoting what they've been taught as opposed to those who desire to know the truth that they might be prepared.

Ok, I can go along with that.
 

Trekson

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Hi Oliver, Here is my lengthy reply to your question: Who is the bride of Christ?

Perhaps, because I'm a male of the species, I've always been uncomfortable with the description of the church as the Bride of Christ. As I've listened to various pre-trib preachers use the constant references of us as the bride of Christ, the discomfort has increased as I've sensed that this isn't just a "guy thing", I believe it is a misunderstanding derived from erroneous biblical interpretations. Some of the arguments they give for keeping the church out of the 70th week contrary to what the bible teaches is that "no bridegroom would make his bride suffer that way", or "we need to be in heaven for the marriage banquet during the seven years of Daniel's 70th week". They've even "made up" and embellished Jewish wedding customs that have no historical validity, to support what they teach.

For example, there is no support for the bridegroom "kidnapping" his bride a week before the wedding. A term Zola Levitt has used to equate that with the rapture. Another pre-trib believer, Greg Killan, has written that John 14:2-3 was spoken to the bride by the groom as he left to prepare for the wedding. Again, there is no written historical documentation to support this. I've also heard it taught that Israel is the bride of Father God and the church is the bride of His Son, Jesus. The former has some scriptural support but the latter is not clearly stated in the bible. I believe that if the church was to be his bride then He would have clearly stated that fact somewhere in His teachings. I think it's important that it isn't there.

Dispensationalism is a doctrine of separation and God through Jesus is the author of unity. I consider myself sort of a quasi-dispensationa list. By that I mean, I recognize that Israel has a few future physical promises yet to come that will find their fulfillment in the millennium but all spiritual promises have found their completion and fulfillment through the church, which as you know, was basically just Jewish in origin for the first several years before Paul started preaching to the gentiles. Any doctrine that eternally separates the church from Israel should be considered false and subject to intense scrutiny.

Before we get into the NT teachings let's take a quick review of what the OT has to say on this subject. Jer. 3:14 - "Return, faithless people," declares the Lord, "for I am your husband. I will choose you—one from a town and two from a clan—and bring you to Zion. I believe this prophecy, which is the Lord speaking to the Jews is fulfilled in Rev. 14:1 - Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. Is.62 is speaking about the new name of Zion. Vs. 5 states - As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you. The virgin sons of Israel will marry Zion and/or the King of Zion who is Jesus Christ! (Rev.14:4). Jer. 14:18 tells us that Judah will unite (marry?) Israel. Jesus is also called the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

This may surprise some of you but nowhere in the bible is the term, "the bride of Christ" used, however, the "body of Christ" referring to the church is used twice by Paul, once in 1 Cor. 12:27 and again in Eph. 4:12 and inferred in a few more places. Well then, where did this idea come from? Some have used the parable of the ten virgins as support but this really isn't logical once you dissect the passage. Matt. 25: 1-13 - "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' 7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' 9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' 10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' 12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

I can't argue the fact that Christ is sometimes pictured as a bridegroom but that doesn't automatically translate into the church being the bride. In this parable, believers or the church would equate to the ten virgins, a bride isn't mentioned at all although it could be implied that the ten virgins were keeping her company. This parable doesn't support the theory of imminence, but it does warn of preparation, readiness and what might happen to those who fail to watch. A couple of other things can be assumed by this passage, one is that they knew what exact day the wedding would be. They were at their posts, but the bridegroom was delayed. There is historical documentation that typically the bridegroom would arrive at 11:30 pm to pick up his bride and guests then they would proceed to the bridegroom's father's house for the midnight ceremony. Here, the bridegroom was delayed and the announcement didn't come until midnight. That is why the virgins fell asleep. They didn't know how long the delay would be. I think this fits a pre-wrath scenario quite nicely.

Another passage used is found in three of the gospels. Matthew, Mark and Luke, they are all the same. Matt. 9:15 - And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. Christ is referring to himself as a bridegroom, but the disciples are called children of the bride chamber, the NIV words them as friends of the bridegroom. These were typically close friends of the groom who made sure all the preparations were made in their version of the "honeymoon suite" and where the actual ceremony would take place. If the disciples here are representative of the church, again they are not called the bride. A third reference can be found in John 3:29 - He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. Here, John, a servant and follower of Christ and God, refers to himself and which could include the rest of us as friends of the bridegroom, not the bride. A follow up to this verse is John 10:16 - And other sheep I have (gentiles), which are not of this fold (jews): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (emphasis and conclusions mine) In John 9:15, the disciples are called guests of the bridegroom.

A fourth reference sometimes used to describe the church as the bride is adapting the verse that compares Jesus, the head of the church to the husband as the head of the wife Eph. 5:23-25. Those that use this as support are, in my opinion, stretching scripture to coincide with their beliefs rather than taking it at face value and seeing it simply as a comparison. In this passage Paul uses marriage as an example of headship, submission and the importance of purifying our bodies or His body as the two, the head and the body will become one flesh. This would be the perfect place for the scriptures to state that the church is the bride of Christ, but it doesn't. In fact, Paul goes out of his way to re-emphasize we are His body at least three times and infers it a couple of more times.

Another verse commonly used to assert our “brideship” is 2 Cor. 11:2 - For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. In this verse, Paul is the one doing the betrothing, not God or Christ. Here is a short version of the story behind this chapter. The Corinthians were being swayed by false teachers and listening to some of them deriding Paul and his ministry and authority. In this chapter he is defending his apostleship and explaining to them that they should remain pure of heart and not to be easily persuaded to abandon their relationship with God. Corinth was a very paganistic place with several different idols being worshipped at the time around the city. People worshipped several gods at once to "cover their bases" in case one or more of them wasn't real. Paul is using the espousalship as an example of steadfastness and purity of worship to God alone.

During the engagement period, a person, usually a friend of the bridegroom watched over the bride-to-be to ensure her purity and faithfulness prior to the wedding. If one was to have relations with another person during their engagement period, in those days, they would have been guilty of adultery and faced stoning or worse, as punishment. In this case, Paul is comparing his concern for their spiritual well-being with the friend of the bridegroom that ensures the purity of the virgin bride. When studying the bible it is just as important to understand what is not being said as well as what was said. There are at least two other places in scripture where Christ could have simply identified the church as his bride, but He did not. Matt. 12:50 - For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." And in Matt. 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. In the first one He could have added wife and in the second one He could have added, for example, except for my marriage to all those that believe in me. The truth of unity is summed up by Christ in this one verse. John 10:30 - I and the Father are one" and the ultimate goal is the one stated above where Christ said that eventually there will be "one fold and one shepherd". This verse in no way alludes to there being a father's bride and a son's bride or Israel being God's and the church being Christ's, WE ARE ALL ONE IN HIM!!

However, the parable of the talents does show that there will be a heavenly hierarchy based on how well we served and obeyed Him. The wedding parable of Matt. 22 implies that the gentile church are guests to the wedding but we must make sure we have the proper wedding garment. What are the proper wedding garments? Simply put we are to be clothed with humility having our robes washed white by the blood of the Lamb (Rev.7:9). The church here is clothed differently from the bride of Rev. 19 whose white linen garments stand for "the righteous acts of the saints". We as believers in Christ don't have to earn our way to heaven, it is a free gift but the future bride of Christ must purify herself by their deeds.

There are a few more scriptures, all in Revelation, that may shed some light on this subject. Rev. 21:2 - I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Rev. 21:9-10 - One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

The two questions we must ask ourselves are: if the church is not the bride then who is? and what exactly is the best description for the church?

In the first two, the bride is the New Jerusalem where all of us Christian and Jew will eternally reside together as one big, happy family. Rev. 19:7, emphasizes that wedding has come, utilizing the same future, present tense as is used to describe that the wrath of the Lamb is about to come in Rev. 6:17. Both clarify the fact that the event being spoken of has not yet occurred but is about to. This scripture is speaking of a time after the seven vials of wrath have been poured out; so from this verse alone the picture of the church as the pre-tribulational bride and our wedding being in heaven for the previous seven years has absolutely no foundation. From this passage we know that the wedding supper will take place after the 70th week is completed and the prophetic Feast of Tabernacles can equate to that wedding supper and that it will occur here on earth.

In the case of the prophetic wedding scenario, I suggest that it will be played out as follows.
We know that the wedding supper takes place here on earth after the 70th week. We know that Christ is depicted as the bridegroom. Everything else is subjective and I don't declare the following as doctrine, just a different way of looking at things. The rest of the wedding party consists of: the bride, her virgin attendants, friends of the bridegroom and finally, the guests. I believe the New Jerusalem will come to earth after the millennium and won't be fully complete as one under God until the millennium is over and it is within the description of the New Jerusalem that we find the identity and place for all those who will abide with Him eternally.

It is only because of Israel and God's design through that nation that we are able to enter into the city. There are twelve gates and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are on those gates. In Rev. 7, God sets aside 12,000 from each tribe totaling 144,000. Guarding those gates are twelve angels. There are 12 foundations and on those are the names of the twelve apostles. The city is built upon Jesus Christ and His gospel which was the message entrusted to the apostles to bring to the world. He is the chief cornerstone and Jesus told Peter that upon him ("this rock") He would build His church or (ek kaleo) "called out ones".

As God the Father and God the Son are one I believe that, spiritually, they will have the same bride which based upon the city and OT teachings I believe is primarily Jewish. So here is how I see it all playing out: The friends of the bridegroom are the 12 apostles and the OT prophets and those Christians whose faithful service and obedience elevates them to that stature. Martyrdom may also play a role here. John the Baptist identified himself as a friend of the bridegroom and I believe he was representative of all the prophets that had come before. The guests are those gentile and jewish representatives of humanity that are allowed to enter the millennium after the sheep and goat judgment, to repopulate the earth. ( Matt. 22:2-14 and Matt. 25:31-46, Rev. 19:17 ).

If you multiply the length of the city of New Jerusalem by the height (12,000 furlongs) you get 144,000. If you multiply the breadth by either the length or the height to acquire the general mathematical area you get 144,000. The beginning of Rev. 14 tells us that the 144,000 are with Christ wherever he goes, like a bride would be, and they sing a new song that only they can know; perhaps a love song similar to the Song of Solomon. Jesus tells us that there is no marriage in heaven so I conclude that his bride must be an earthly one. The fact that they are either physical or spiritual virgins only emphasizes to me their purity as a bride. In Rev. 7:9 they are sealed and protected, as a bride would be, so I conclude the 144,000 are His bride. The virgin attendants would be the 12 angels that are guarding the gates of the city. They ensure that all who enter are pure and have not entered in by mistake.

As the Body of Christ and as we grow and mature in Him we seem to acquire a deep, spiritual concern for the welfare of Israel. We want our nation to continue to protect her and we care about her spiritual condition as a groom would for his bride. We pray for her and dread the judgments that God will bring upon her but we also understand that this is necessary for her refinement through fire as we, His body, will also be refined through fire. We share the same concerns as our Best Friend and as the physical manifestation of the Groom's presence on Earth we must do all we can to ensure the safety, purity and well-being of His bride. Therefore I conclude that we the church as the Body of Christ are not the bride but are united with Christ as the bridegroom.

There are so many different levels to eternity that we certainly can not know or understand them all, but Daniel tells us that in the end times; knowledge will increase and I believe this includes general human knowledge as well as a new and greater understanding of spiritual truths. Perhaps this one of them and God is calling us to a greater level of concern for Israel as befitting a groom towards a bride. Perhaps this will prepare us for the next level of spiritual warfare, especially when we see another man, the antichrist, try and woo her away from us. I think we will react with a spiritual jealousy and a greater determination to fight the good fight to protect as much of Israel as we can. We surely won't allow the gates of hell to prevail against us and though the scriptures tell us that many of us will be killed, we know that we will still be part of His armies that come to vanquish satan once and for all, until that time he is let loose for a season at the end of the millennium.

I'm sure many of you will disagree with my assessment but I ask that you pray about it and keep an open mind. I'm sure some of you may feel that I'm robbing you of a special blessing by not being the bride but I think it greater to be part of the groom as members of Christ's body and I can see how this radical viewpoint could unite us Christians under the banner of love for Israel, as that will eventually become a greater concern for us and cause us to not be annoyed by the little things that divide us as a church but instead will unite us as an army who will never give up, who will not allow the god of this world to rest in peace. An army who will take that old song, Onward, Christian Soldiers as a battle cry for this world, who will put on the armor of God so that when that evil day comes, "you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." ( Eph. 6:13-18 )

Rev. 22:17 - The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. This verse sums it all up for me. In vs. 16 Christ states that this message is for the church. The groom and the bride are (prophetically) complete. When the spirit and the bride say come, they are extending a wedding invitation to the world where; upon acceptance they become part of His Body. We are to partake of the wedding between the Groom and the 144,000, the combined righteous remnant of the tribes of Judah and the tribes of Israel as foretold by prophecy.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, terry.

TWC ... trying to validate your claims by saying it is nausating? Believe me or this will make me sick? I agree with Oliver tis but... elephant hurling.

Howerver, there are many reasons for a mid term rapture... the first half of tribulation is a time of bounty as the beast trys to buy the world. to have the rapture take place after armageddon serves no purpose. Consider Daniel 12:12 it is the only place God gives a writtren Blessing to those that curse him... and those left behind...becasue a rapture had just taken place. consider that.

Even in scripture one uses to attempt to prove a pre-trib rapture somes light showiung a mid-term in its stead.
One claims be prepared... I agree.. be prepared...not to go in the rapture. Prepare for the worst.. hope for the best....

and the scripture says be caught up in the air with the Lord forever... and they assume they will be in the air forwever with the Lord. But that is not what it says... See Jesus will reign 1000 years on earth.... how will you be in the air with him? Ok, sao one is caught up in the air with the Lord AND one remains with the Lord forever... meaning where he goes we go... so we are not stuck in the air....... simple.

Oh, not understanding what I say will not make me ill.

LOL! I was reading through this topic, trying to get caught up, when I happened upon this little gem: "TWC ... trying to validate your claims by saying it is nausating? Believe me or this will make me sick? I agree with Oliver tis but... elephant hurling." "ELEPHANT HURLING?!" Are you talking about trying to "throw an elephant?" OR, do you mean "getting sick like an elephant?" OR, do you mean "throwing up an elephant?!" Just looking for a little clarification. Ha! Ha!

Sorry! This was just too funny to pass up ... or throw up! LOL! ROFL! :lol: Have a great day!
 

Arnie Manitoba

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I just noticed another parallel between the judgement of the flood and the rapture.

Noah went into the ark 7 days before the flood came and the Lord closed the door on him. That parallels the 7 years during which the church is removed into the bridal chamber before the flood of judgement on the world. In dealing with judgements, a day in the type stands for a year.

Thanks Oliver

I have also observed some other similarities with Noah and the rapture.

Once Noah and family were on board .... God closed the door on the ark

Hints of the same are found in the new testament:

Matthew 25:10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

Luke 13 : ..... Jesus said to them, [sup]24 [/sup]“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. [sup]25 [/sup]Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

The reference below also indicates a parallel between Noah and the rapture. Once the door of the ark was shut by God , I am sure that the rest of the world knew they were in trouble but it was too late for them

In the same way , when Jesus removes His church at the rapture , the rest of the world will know they are in trouble.

Matthew 24:38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

God has a consistent history of removing His people before he destroys the wicked.

I expect He will do the same before His next episode of wrath on the earth.

God removed Noah pre-flood

Jesus will remove His church pre-wrath
 

oliver

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jeffweeder:


oliver, on 13 October 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:
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He doesn't! He says it has to come before the Day of the Lord.
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Sorry, but he doesnt say that. He specifically says that it is about the Lord coming and gathering his own after the apostasy and the man of sin being revealed.

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [sup]2 [/sup]that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. [sup]3 [/sup]Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,"

If you back up 2 chapters to 1 thess 5, the day of the Lord is about Jesus coming like a thief, in the hope that we will be those who are awake and escape the sudden destruction of what is the final judgment.

How can someone look at a passage and directly contradict what it says? "It will not come": what is the antecedent? It is "the Day of the Lord".

You say "go back two chapters". That is illegitimate! It takes you into a different letter and therefore a different context.

The context of this letter is that the recipients are concerned that the Day of the Lord may already have come. Paul is writing to reassure them that it has not. If he meant by Day of the Lord the taking of the church to be with the Lord he would not be reassuring them but encouraging them with the idea that it is to be desired! The scripture teaches that the Day of the Lord is something to be feared. it is darkness, not light. (Joel 2:11; Amos 5:18)
 

jeffweeder

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jeffweeder:


How can someone look at a passage and directly contradict what it says? "It will not come": what is the antecedent? It is "the Day of the Lord".

Hi Oliver
I was thinking the same thing. :D
Verse 1 of 2thess 2 is in regard to the Lords coming and our gathering.Some were thinking that it had come, but Paul tells them that the day had not come, and wont come until the apostasy and man of sin has come.
 


You say "go back two chapters". That is illegitimate! It takes you into a different letter and therefore a different context.

Paul is teaching the same subject. Paul uses the day of the Lord in 1Thess 5 to descibe the Lords coming like a thief, and the need to be awake and ready for our gathering. Paul uses that term because Jesus used it to describe his coming. Paul writes according to the Lords own word as seen in 1Thess 4. Peter uses the term to desribe the coming in 2 Pet 3, and calls it the day of God in v 12 and the day of eternity in v 18.

The context 0f 2Thess 2 is in regard to his coming and our gathering......

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
 

veteran

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That's a long first post, so it will take time to cover all the points you raise.

First, there is the Augustinian idea that the church has replaced Israel or that there is no difference between the church and Israel. That view leads to complete confusion when trying to understand the prophecies. Next there is confusion between tribulation at the hands of men and the wrath of God. There is much confusion about the abomination of desolation and the 70-week prophecy of Daniel.

The idea that Christ's Church became inheritors of the Salvation Promise which God's OT prophets foretold for Israel is not unjustified. What is unjust is the 1800's Dispensationalist attempts to separate the people of Israel apart from Christ's Church, especially when the starting of Christ's Church involved firstly a remnant seed of Israel (Rom.11). Paul stated in Eph.2 to Gentile believers how they had become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" through belief on Christ Jesus.

Then there's the issue of the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" per God's Word, the fact that many of them were scattered to the West and have received The Gospel along with Gentiles (not speaking of Jews either, but literal seed Israelites of the ten northern tribes that lost their heritage as part of Israel). In final, many are going to discover how Christ's Church includes many, many of those, i.e., more than can be numbered. Because of just that, trying to separate the seed of Israel apart from Christ's Church is confusion.


In my view the pretribulational rapture and premilleniialism is the system that makes the most sense of all the prophecies. There are still problems, but they are less than any other that I have seen.

Pretribulationalism has many, many problems that posttribulationalism does not, and I'm discounting the pre-wrath position.


The first thing to establish is that Israel and the church are separate and not to be confused. Israel is elect as a nation and has an earthly role until the end of the millennium, whereas the church is a union in Christ of elect individuals, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, whose Gentile members are grafted in as wild olive shoots onto the olive tree of God's promise to Abraham.

They are not separate. It's the orthodox Jews of the "house of Judah" that are separate from Christ's Church, and simply because of their unbelief on Jesus Christ as The Saviour.

The false doctrine that all Israelites today are Jews is pushed to create the confusion doctrine of Dispensationalism you're supporting. God's Word has a whole lot to say regarding separate prophecies to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes under Ephraim) and the "house of Judah". And those prophecies exist for the New Covenant times today, and still even future with Christ's return. Paul also revealed this point in Romans 11. The Israel in part that is blinded is the "house of Judah" today, i.e, orthodox Judaism. They represent only a small part of the seed of Israel per God's Word, only 3 tribes out of thirteen total (counting Ephraim and Manasseh as separate tribes).

So what Dispensationalism has done, is to wrongly assign only Jews of the "house of Judah" as the only seed Israelites. Even in the days of the Jewish historian Josephus in 100 A.D., he said the ten tribes were still scattered abroad and made up a great number of people, too many to be numbered. Simple enough, since those ten tribed Israelites made up the 'majority' of Israelites at the time of Israel's split into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days. The doctrine you referring to has to try and discredit that point. But if God's Holy Writ is followed as written about that, It will not allow that point to be discredited.

All I have time for right now.
 

us2are1

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27 Both these kings' hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time.
 

revturmoil

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Ok, great.
So why does Paul say that the apostasy or departure has to happen prior to the Lords coming to gather his saints?

The Lords coming and our rapture to him are inseperable from each other......just as the apostasy / departure from the faith and the man of sin coming are.
God bless.

Where do you find that the apostasy is a departure from the faith??? That's another colossal blunder of the bible prophecy experts!

One that has misled millions!

Hi Oliver, I think it will be obvious when it occurs. It won't be a trickle and it's not catholicism or the general state of the church. We'll know it when we see it. I think it will be sudden, caused by an event, and it will be quite large in scale, imo.

Correct! The apostasy is currently taking place in the Arab world!
 

oliver

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Paul stated in Eph.2 to Gentile believers how they had become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" through belief on Christ Jesus.

No he doesn't. This is an example of the careless reading that seems so prevalent in non-dispensational quarters.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Eph 2:11-22)

We (Gentiles) were previously alienated from the commonwealth of Israel. Now Jew and Gentile are reconciled, and made one in the church but we are not made part of the commonwealth of Israel.

The promises of the land were made to the physical descendants of Abraham and they remain to be fulfilled.

Then there's the issue of the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" per God's Word, the fact that many of them were scattered to the West and have received The Gospel along with Gentiles

The 10 tribes are not and never were lost. Look at 2 Chronicles 11:13-16, and Luke 2:36. Besides that, Simeon's territory was to the South of Judah and Benjamin and geopolitically must have been part of the kingdom of Judah. We have no idea what happened to the exiles of the Northern kingdom in Assyria; they lost their identity as Jews. If they ceased circumcision they were no longer in the covenant. (Genesis 17:14) If they kept their identity, they are now part of the visible people called the Jews.

After the Babylonian exile there was no longer the division of the tribes. This was the fulfilment of the first part of the prophecy of Ezekiel 37:15-28. James addresses his epistle to "the twelve tribes which are scattered about" (1:1), which shows that they were not lost then either.

Many promises to Israel remain which cannot be fulfilled to the church; furthermore Israel is going to be restored (Romans 11), as indeed it must if God's promises are not to be broken.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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. What is unjust is the 1800's Dispensationalist attempts to separate the people of Israel apart from Christ's Church, especially when the starting of Christ's Church involved firstly a remnant seed of Israel (Rom.11). Paul stated in Eph.2 to Gentile believers how they had become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" through belief on Christ Jesus.

Hi Veteran .... I do not want to take this thread into an "Israel~is~the~Church" debate. I feel Israel is distinct from The Christian Church right up to the end times. (I am not talking about Jew and Gentile being alike under Christ) (That part is true)

I know you take a different view Veteran .... but I want you to consider another distinction very seldom mentioned.

It is called "The times of the Gentiles"

Not only that but the bible clearly says that there is a trigger that appears to put The End times into effect.

The trigger is when the full number of Gentiles have come in ...... then God focuses on Israel again.

(from Romans 11) ...... [sup]25 [/sup]I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part ***until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, [sup]26 [/sup]and in this way all Israel will be saved.

Romans 11 is a very good chapter that describes God keeping his original covenant with Israel (in spite of their unbelief in the gospel) .... and how he allows salvation to the gentiles (to make Israel envious) .... and when the gentile church is complete (probably raptured) .... God focuses back on Israel.

*** "until" is a key word we must not overlook.

It could be referring to the removal (rapture) of the (Gentile) Church

Best wishes.
 

jeffweeder

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Where do you find that the apostasy is a departure from the faith??? That's another colossal blunder of the bible prophecy experts!

One that has misled millions!

Hi
1Tim 4
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,......

Matt 24
“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. [sup]10 [/sup]At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. [sup]11 [/sup]Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. [sup]12 [/sup]Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. [sup]13 [/sup]But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. [sup]14 [/sup]This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


1Jn 2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. [sup]19 [/sup]They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.


I wouldnt consider myself or anyone else an expert, far from it. I do like to share my thoughts. B)
 

revturmoil

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Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The words 'falling away' in 2 Thes. 2:3 is the word 'apostasia.' It's the only place apostisia is translated "falling away.". The word is actually 'forsake' and it's used pertaining to the man of sin and not the church.

In 1 Tim 4 the word 'apostasia' is not used. The word aphistēmi is used and it means something totally different.

1Tim 4
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,......

In Mathew 24 the word apostasy isn't used either and neither is 'fall away' used in the original text.

KJV. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Matt 24
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The word apostasia isn't used in 1 John 2 either!

1Jn 2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
The words fall away in the following verses are not the apostasia either!

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.(aphistēmi)

If they shall fall away,(parapiptō) to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Falling away is a poor translation of the word apostasia, and 2 Thess. 2. It is the only place the word forsake or 'apostasia' is interpreted "falling away".
"A divorce" is the root word for apostasy and to defect means to abandon.

Apostasy is not being lukewarm, backsliden or a heretic. It actually has nothing to do with spiritual condition of a church or lack of devotion of an individual. It is not false doctrine or heresy. Apostasy will have nothing to do with the end-time church. The entire chapter of 2 Thes. 2 is devoted to the revelation of the man of sin before the Day of Christ.

There is no word or scripture in the text that implies that the church will supposedly "apostasize" (to go from one thing to another) and welcome the man of sin.
So don't fall for the phrase, "the apostate church" or fall for the blasphemous lie that the harlot of Revelation 17 is the so called "apostate church!" There's not one scriptural reason to believe that the falling away will have anything to do with the church. But there are several reasons to believe that it has all to do with the man of sin.

For a Christian to be an apostate, he must renounce his religion, disolve his union with God, and accept another religion.
There are only two verses where the word "apostasia" is used. 2Thes 2:1-4 and Acts 21:21 where the word forsake is used and is the correct meaning of apostasy.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In Acts 21:21 Paul is teaching the Jews to "forsake' (apostasia/abandon) the law of Moses and accept the new covenant.
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Apostasy is also described in the old testament with Esau and Ishmael. They were opposed the true God of Israel and went into other directions.
Bakers dictionary of theology
Apostasy

A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenism (1 Macc 2:15)

In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy.

In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin.
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us2are1

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27 Both these kings' hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time.

This scripture denotes a type that uses a kings signet to secure a false oath. They sit around a table and exchange folly and lies until the time that the truth overtakes them and destroys them. No mater how many times they were told they wouldn't listen and could not hear the truth. They hated God because there was no truth in them.