The pre-tribulational rapture

Shalom, terry.

terry said:

I can't speak for oliver, but I was talking bout throwing a sick elephant.

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Thank you for responding! That's great! LOL! It's one thing to have a larger-than-normal mess, but to sling it around, too! It's almost as entertaining as the rest of this ... <ahem> ... "SERIOUS" conversation!
LOL!

kaoticprofit said:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The words 'falling away' in 2 Thes. 2:3 is the word 'apostasia.' It's the only place apostisia is translated "falling away.". The word is actually 'forsake' and it's used pertaining to the man of sin and not the church.

In 1 Tim 4 the word 'apostasia' is not used. The word aphistēmi is used and it means something totally different.

1Tim 4
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,......

In Mathew 24 the word apostasy isn't used either and neither is 'fall away' used in the original text.

KJV. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Matt 24
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The word apostasia isn't used in 1 John 2 either!

1Jn 2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
The words fall away in the following verses are not the apostasia either!

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.(aphistēmi)

If they shall fall away,(parapiptō) to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Falling away is a poor translation of the word apostasia, and 2 Thess. 2. It is the only place the word forsake or 'apostasia' is interpreted "falling away".
"A divorce" is the root word for apostasy and to defect means to abandon.

Apostasy is not being lukewarm, backsliden or a heretic. It actually has nothing to do with spiritual condition of a church or lack of devotion of an individual. It is not false doctrine or heresy. Apostasy will have nothing to do with the end-time church. The entire chapter of 2 Thes. 2 is devoted to the revelation of the man of sin before the Day of Christ.

There is no word or scripture in the text that implies that the church will supposedly "apostasize" (to go from one thing to another) and welcome the man of sin.
So don't fall for the phrase, "the apostate church" or fall for the blasphemous lie that the harlot of Revelation 17 is the so called "apostate church!" There's not one scriptural reason to believe that the falling away will have anything to do with the church. But there are several reasons to believe that it has all to do with the man of sin.

For a Christian to be an apostate, he must renounce his religion, disolve his union with God, and accept another religion.
There are only two verses where the word "apostasia" is used. 2Thes 2:1-4 and Acts 21:21 where the word forsake is used and is the correct meaning of apostasy.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In Acts 21:21 Paul is teaching the Jews to "forsake' (apostasia/abandon) the law of Moses and accept the new covenant.
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Apostasy is also described in the old testament with Esau and Ishmael. They were opposed the true God of Israel and went into other directions.
Bakers dictionary of theology
Apostasy

A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenism (1 Macc 2:15)

In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy.

In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin.
________________________________________________________________

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I think it relates to the Church because the man of sin is also known as the son of perdition.

Judas Iscariot was a son of perdition and he was one of the twelve...chosen to be a part of the foundation of Apostolic truth and the body of Christ,....but he went out.
It is therefore possible that the great falling away is about a large part of the Church departing from Apostolic authority and hence the authority of Jesus..The end result is Antichrist and many who went out like Judas did.
Many are called but few are chosen, and many are those who think the Lord knows them but the Lord will not know them when he comes....Now that folks is deception, a powerful delusion designed to decieve even the elect.
Do not be decieved.Be humble and pray that you may be able to escape from these things that are and are coming.

jeffweeder said:

I think it relates to the Church because the man of sin is also known as the son of perdition.

Judas Iscariot was a son of perdition and he was one of the twelve...chosen to be a part of the foundation of Apostolic truth and the body of Christ,....but he went out.
It is therefore possible that the great falling away is about a large part of the Church departing from Apostolic authority and hence the authority of Jesus..The end result is Antichrist and many who went out like Judas did.
Many are called but few are chosen, and many are those who think the Lord knows them but the Lord will not know them when he comes....Now that folks is deception, a powerful delusion designed to decieve even the elect.
Do not be decieved.Be humble and pray that you may be able to escape from these things that are and are coming.

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Here is the text. Where do you see the church involved in the apostasia? Look at what is bold....and you attribute this to the church??? Why doesn't it surprise me that people want nothing to do with Christianity? They attribute the harlot to the church and then they say the church will accept the man of sin. Maybe the church would do better if they would stop demonizing themselves! Apostasy isn't being a heretic. It isn't being backslidden or lukewarm.
Apostasy means to abandon one thing and accept another!

2 Thessalonians 2:1 &para;Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 &para;Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here is a list of 'apostates.'

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Apostasy
(Greek aπο, apo, "away, apart", στaσις, stasis, "standing") is the formal renunciation of one's religion.

Noted apostates

This is a list of notable persons that have followed a religion and then publicly abandoned or publicly criticized it and attracted notable attention by this defection, or had a notable influence on society with their defection; or if the person has been notably been referred to as an apostate by other groups or people regardless whether the person accepts this label or not.
Ambedkar an ex-Hindu who became a Buddhist
Karen Armstrong ex-Roman Catholic nun who became an atheist
Julian the Apostate ex-Christian and Roman emperor
Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) Former adherent of Manicheism who converted to Christianity and criticized Manicheism in his book called Confessions, though generally not labelled as an apostate because the term is originally used for people who leave Christianity, not for people who convert to it
Marjoe Gortner ex-Christian
Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim
Maria Monk Sometimes considered an apostate, though little evidence exists that she ever belonged to the religion she supposedly fled
Taslima Nasrin born in a Muslim family who became an atheist
Friedrich Nietzsche grew up in a Lutheran family and became a confirmed Christian in his teens but later became a staunch atheist
Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses
Baruch Spinoza excommunicated from the Jewish community
Ibn Warraq ex-Muslim
See how they all went from one thing to another?

Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when a king declared a change in the "national religion!"

kaoticprofit said:

Here is the text. Where do you see the church involved in the apostasia?

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The Church is warned not to be decieved by it. They in thessalonica had already believed a lie that came from an imposter. An inside job is more likely to decieve the elect..if that were possible.
God sends a strong delusion to whome? Does the already deluded world need a further stronger delusion to reject the truth of the Gospel? Why would satan want to decieve the world, when the world is already decieved enough not to except the glory of the Gospel.? The deception is targeted at those who profess to believe, and some fall away from the faith when they believe his lies.

I guess that you just don't understand that apostasia, parapipto, and aphistemi are not the same word and neither do they have the same meaning.

Apostasy has nothing to do with the church!....parapipto and aphistemi do! Read the text!

Why would God send "strong delusion" to his own? Someone who thinks they would receive 72 virgins in paradise for killing people....Now I call that STRONG DELUSION!

Only God knows those who are truly his.,

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [sup]2 [/sup]Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;.2 Pet 2.

Nice chatting with you.

Shalom, jeffweeder.

jeffweeder said:

Hi
1Tim 4
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,......

Matt 24
“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. [sup]10 [/sup]At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. [sup]11 [/sup]Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. [sup]12 [/sup]Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. [sup]13 [/sup]But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. [sup]14 [/sup]This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


1Jn 2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. [sup]19 [/sup]They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.


I wouldnt consider myself or anyone else an expert, far from it. I do like to share my thoughts. B)

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These are rather unfortunate translations of 1 Timothy 4:1 and Matthew 24:10. To say "fall away" is rather like someone saying they "fell in love" with someone, or rather "fell out of love" with someone, or "fell into sin." To say "fell in" or "fell out" or "fell into" is to suggest that the move was an ACCIDENT; that it wasn't really the person's fault. That's NOT being honest! If one is to "enter into a love relationship" with someone, it is a CONSCIOUS DECISION, just as it is a CONSCIOUS DECISION to step out of the relationship or to sin against God. The word in 1 Timothy 4:1 so translated in the American Standard Version and the New American Standard Version is the Greek word "aposteesontai." It means "shall remove," "shall instigate a revolt," "shall desist," or "shall desert." I believe the best choice for this passage is "shall desert." Literally, it means "shall stand off" or "shall stand away," like we use the compound word "stand-offish."

NT:868 aphisteemi (af-is'-tay-mee); frm NT:575 and NT:2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:
KJV - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdrawself.

NT:575 apo (apo'); a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):
KJV - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

NT:2476 histeemi (his'-tay-mee); a prolonged form of a primary staoo (stah'-o) (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):
KJV - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare NT:5087.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

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Let's look at a few other translations:

1 Timothy 4:1
4:1 The Spirit expressly states that in the acharit-hayamim some people will apostatize from the faith by paying attention to deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
CJB

1 Timothy 4:1
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
NIV

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
KJV

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith, giving their mind to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons
Darby

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,
Douay-Rheims

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
ESV

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some in the church will turn away from Christ and become eager followers of teachers with devil-inspired ideas.
TLB

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Holy Spirit clearly says that in the later times some people will stop believing the faith. They will follow spirits that lie and teachings of demons.
NCV

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons;
Webster

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
RSV

1 Timothy 4:1
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
TNIV

These are much more honest versions IN THIS PARTICULAR VERSE.

Now let's look at Matthew 24:9-14:

Matthew 24:9-14
9 At that time you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and put to death, and all peoples will hate you because of me. 10 At that time many will be trapped into betraying and hating each other, 11 many false prophets will appear and fool many people; 12 and many people’s love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah. 13 But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered. 14 And this Good News about the Kingdom will be announced throughout the whole world as a witness to all the Goyim. It is then that the end will come.
CJB

Matthew 24:9-149 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
NIV

Matthew 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV

Matthew 24:9-14
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
NKJV

Matthew 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you; and ye will be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.
10 And then will many be offended, and will deliver one another up, and hate one another;
11 and many false prophets shall arise and shall mislead many;
12 and because lawlessness shall prevail, the love of the most shall grow cold;
13 but he that has endured to the end, he shall be saved.
14 And these glad tidings of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole habitable earth, for a witness to all the nations, and then shall come the end.
Darby

Matthew 24:9-14
9 “Then people will hand you over to be treated badly and killed. All nations will hate you because of me. 10 At that time, many will turn away from their faith. They will hate each other. They will hand each other over to their enemies. 11 Many false prophets will appear. They will fool many people. 12 Because evil will grow, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world. It will be a witness to all nations. Then the end will come.
NIrV

Matthew 24:9-14
9 Then will they deliver you up to be afflicted, and will kill you: and ye will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then will many be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will rise, and will deceive many.
12 And because iniquity will abound, the love of many will become cold.
13 But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a testimony to all nations; and then shall the end come.
Webster

Matthew 24:9-14
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but whoever stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
TNIV

As long as one takes into account the original meaning of being "offended," that is, "given no choice but to offend," these versions are all more honest than the version originally quoted. Now, in these particular verses in these particular versions, notice the words "you" and "ye" in verse 9. Yeshua` (Jesus) was talking DIRECTLY to His students listening to Him right there on that mountain side! Although verses 10 through 14 begin to stray into the distant future, at least verse 9 and I believe much of verses 10 and 11 begin in the first century.
So these verses are NOT talking about the future; they are talking about the PAST! Only part of verse 11 and verses 12-14 are talking about the future! "At that time" in verse 10 is talking about the time when the people to whom Yeshua` was addressing as "you" were still around! Finally, 1 John 2:18-19 will be discussed in another post.

Shalom, again, jeffweeder.

For these next verses, I'm going directly to the Greek:

1 John 2:18-19
18 Paidia, eschatee hoora estin, kai kathoos eekousate hoti antichristos erchetai, kai nun antichristoi polloi gegonasin, hothen ginooskomen hoti eschatee hoora estin.
19 Ex heemoon exeelthan all' ouk eesan ex heemoon; ei gar ex heemoon eesan, memeneekeisan an meth' heemoon; all' hina faneroothoosin hoti ouk eisin pantes ex heemoon.
Greek New Testament

18 Paidia, = 18 Children/Toddlers,
eschatee = a-last
hoora = hour/time
estin, = it-is,
kai = and
kathoos = like/as
eekousate = you-have-heard
hoti = that
antichristos = one-opposed-to-the-Messiah
erchetai, = shall-come,
kai = and
nun = now
antichristoi = ones-opposed-to-the-Messiah
polloi = many
gegonasin, = are-present,
hothen = by-which
ginooskomen = we-know
hoti = that
eschatee = a-last
hoora = hour/time
estin. = it-is.
19 Ex = 19 Out-from
heemoon = us
exeelthan = they-issued
all' = but
ouk = not
eesan = they-were
ex = out-from
heemoon; = us;
ei = if
gar = for
ex = out-from
heemoon = us
eesan, = they-were,
memeneekeisan = they-have-stayed
an = would/wanted/wished
meth' (meta) = with
heemoon; = us;
all' = but
hina = so-that
faneroothoosin = they-might-be-exposed
hoti = that
ouk = not
eisin = they-were
pantes = all
ex = out-from
heemoon. = us.

18 Children, a-last hour/time it-is, and like/as you-have-heard that one-opposed-to-the-Messiah shall-come, and now ones-opposed-to-the-Messiah many are-present, by-which we-know that a-last hour/time it-is.
19 Out-from us they-departed but not they-were out-from us; if for out-from us they-were, they-have-stayed would/wanted/wished with us; but so-that they-might-be-exposed that not they-were all out-from us.

18 Children, it's a last hour, and as you have heard that one opposed to the Messiah shall come, even now many opposed to the Messiah are present, by which we know that it is a last hour.
19 They issued out from us but they were not [sent] out from us; for if they were [sent] out from us, they would have wanted to stay with us; but [it was] so that they might be exposed that they all were not [sent] out from us.

There is a crucial message embedded within these verses found in the word "antichristos": Knowing that "Christos," shortened to "Christ" in English transliteration, means the same as the Hebrew word "Mashiach," transliterated into English as "Messiah," the question becomes this: Do we today REALLY KNOW what a Hebrew-speaking person in Yeshua`s day meant when he used the word "Mashiach?" For that matter, do we really even know what a Greek-speaking person in Yeshua`s century meant when he used the word "Christos?" What did it mean for them to say that Yeshua` was the "Mashiach?" I submit to you that most believers today don't mean the same thing when they use the word "Christ."

I'm going to stop here for now and start a new thread. I believe that this is a crucial issue that very much must be discussed if one is going to understand prophecy, but it really doesn't belong here, per se.

oliver said:

verteran:


No he doesn't. This is an example of the careless reading that seems so prevalent in non-dispensational quarters.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Eph 2:11-22)

We (Gentiles) were previously alienated from the commonwealth of Israel. Now Jew and Gentile are reconciled, and made one in the church but we are not made part of the commonwealth of Israel.

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When Paul used that "commonwealth of Israel" phrase to point to the covenants and promises that the believing Gentiles had become "nigh" unto through Christ's Blood, THAT is the same covenants and promises given to Israel as written in the OT prophets. Paul reiterates this more in Romans 11 about the graffing in... of Gentile believers along with the elect remnant of Israel which God preserved.

Now if you want to keep to the Dispensationalist lie that tries to deny the continuity of those covenants and promises first given to Israel not having anything to do with Christ's Church, then you choose to remain in deception to a doctrine of men that only began back in the 1800's with Darby's Dispensationalism.

The 10 tribes are not and never were lost. Look at 2 Chronicles 11:13-16, and Luke 2:36. Besides that, Simeon's territory was to the South of Judah and Benjamin and geopolitically must have been part of the kingdom of Judah. We have no idea what happened to the exiles of the Northern kingdom in Assyria; they lost their identity as Jews. If they ceased circumcision they were no longer in the covenant. (Genesis 17:14) If they kept their identity, they are now part of the visible people called the Jews.

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That's a major falsehood, the Jews never were part of the "house of Israel" ten tribes. The 2 Chron.11:13-16 Scripture is about the Levites in Jeroboam's northern kingdom over the ten tribes not being able to perform their priest duties, because Jeroboam had setup golden calf idols in nothern Israel. So they left the northern kingdom and went south to Jerusalem and joined with the southern kingdom of Judah. And the only tribe joined with Judah then was Benjamin (2 Chron.11:1).

Regarding the 2 Chron.11:16 verse, only some of the people from the northern ten tribed kingdom left to go down south to join with the house of Judah, because of Jeroboam's calf idol worship. God's Word has a whole lot more history about Jeroboam's northern kingdom of Israel made up of the majority of the people of ten tribes later. It's ludicrous to infer all the ten tribes went to join with the house of Judah to become Jews, for that would have left NO northern ten-tribed kingdom of Israel under Jeroboam at all! That's how Anna's of the tribe of Asher could be with the house of Judah later on. Some of her ancestors from the tribe of Asher left Jeroboam's kingdom to go down to Jerusalem and join with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

After the Babylonian exile there was no longer the division of the tribes. This was the fulfilment of the first part of the prophecy of Ezekiel 37:15-28. James addresses his epistle to "the twelve tribes which are scattered about" (1:1), which shows that they were not lost then either.

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You're completely wrong about that too, and not following God's Word but your own agenda. The joining of the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 has still yet to be fulfilled today, and it won't be until Christ's return. The "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" remained separated as peoples of Israel even after a small remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi returned to Jerusalem from their 70 years Babylon captivity, with the rest of Judah scattered like the ten tribes were. You've obvioiusly not studied God's Word about that. Then ten tribes were removed from the holy land around 120 years PRIOR to Judah's captivity to Babylon. That involved two separate captivities of Judah and Israel separately, not just one big one of both together. Ezra 2 documents just which ones returned to Jerusalem from the 70 years Babylon captivity. NONE of the ten tribes are mentioned there at all. (Like I said, you show you haven't studied that Bible history).

Many promises to Israel remain which cannot be fulfilled to the church; furthermore Israel is going to be restored (Romans 11), as indeed it must if God's promises are not to be broken.

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God's covenants and promises continued with Israel under Christ's Church per The New Covenant. The unbelieving Jews today still represent the "house of Judah" which God promised He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David, and for Jerusalem (1 Kings 11). The Ezek.37 two sticks prophecy is about the joining back of the "house of Judah" (Jews) with the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) in final when Christ returns. Until Christ returns, the two houses are still separate, even as Paul revealed in Romans 11 about the portion of Israel that God has blinded (i.e, orthodox Jews).

oliver said:

First, there is the Augustinian idea that the church has replaced Israel or that there is no difference between the church and Israel. That view leads to complete confusion when trying to understand the prophecies. Next there is confusion between tribulation at the hands of men and the wrath of God. There is much confusion about the abomination of desolation and the 70-week prophecy of Daniel.

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The Dispensationalist view of men is what leads to the confusion about the tribulation events, wrath of God, abomination of desolation, and Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Their doctrine is for one purpose; to serve the false pre-trib rapture theory, which is also a false doctrine from men that began in 1830's Britain with the Irvingite movement and John Darby.

Israel as a whole never possessed the Holy Spirit; he came only on certain individuals. That alone is enough to show that Israel cannot be the same as the church. Israel's promise is centred on the land. The promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and David are all about the land of Israel, which God unconditionally promised as a permanent possession. That promise was temporarily forfeited as an ultimate discipline under the law of Moses, but that discipline has already partly and will fully come to an end. In the millennium, Israel, meaning the physical descendants of Jacob, will be in possession of the full extent of the promised land, under David their prince and the twelve apostles, with Christ reigning over the whole world from Jerusalem. This is the kingdom that was promised to Israel and which Jesus removed from the generation of his first coming because they rejected him. This is the kingdom that Israel will ultimately receive. It is not the church. Indeed it makes no sense for it to be the church, for that would leave the rest of the world inhabited only by non-believers during the millennium. The church will be reigning with Christ -- just how, he does not say, but it seems that the extent of responsibility will depend on the degree of our faithfulness in this life.

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Most of that is just men's speculation in order to try and prove that God's promises to Israel has nothing do with Christ's Church. Most of that cannot be supported in God's Word. Paul shows us that the Promise by Faith which Abraham believed is the same Promise by Faith which those in Christ have believed. Not ONLY that, but Paul says those in Christ have become FELLOW-HEIRS with Abraham. So much for your false attempt to divide Abraham from Christ's Church!

Eph 3:5-6
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
(KJV)

Gentiles should be "fellowheirs" of what per Paul?? Of "the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:". Simple enough, for that means the SAME Promise first given to Abraham and then to Israel. The Gospel Promise was first to Israel you know, and not all of Israel rejected it either! And that's such a BASIC Bible Truth per The New Testament Gospels and Epistles that it shows just how far the pre-trib wanderers have strayed from the Truth.

The church, on the other hand, though it started off Jewish and has Jewish members, is primarily Gentile. It is a mystery -- that is to say, something that was not revealed in the Old Testament -- and the nature of that mystery is the union in it of Jew and Gentile. The church is also the bride of Christ, whom he is preparing for himself. When that is borne in mind, the Jewish wedding customs of the NT period throw much light on the events of the last days.

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That of course is just another false assumption by the Dispensationalist doctrinists. It comes from their inability to recognize that the Jews only represent a small portion of total Israelites which God scattered among Gentiles. Paul's mystery is only about God's promise written through His OT prophets that the Gentiles would be fellow-heirs of His Promise of Salvation graffed into the same Branch as believing Israel is, being Christ Jesus.

The Jewish wedding examples our Lord Jesus gave have NOTHING to do with His Church involving some pre-trib rapture idea. It's the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven that is the Bride per Revelation 21, not His Church. The Jewish wedding usage by pre-tribbers is just a hoax doctrine from men to try and get away from the actual order of events for the end which God gives in His Word. Usage of that Jewish wedding feast no doubt comes from Judaizers pushing the false pre-trib doctrine, which very well could include youself.

As if to drive home the fact that the church is not Israel, Gentile Christians are not allowed to be circumcised, whereas circumcision is the essential mark of being a part of Israel, and the uncircumcised were cut off from the people.

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The only place you've driven is in a ditch. Paul showed in many of his Epistles how Christ's Church is one body made up of both believing Israelites and believing Jews together. So where you gonna' put those believing Israelites in your theory? Outside Christ's Church? Big stack of baloney if you try that. And obviously, you're not that familiar with how many Gentiles have their sons circumcised in the hospital infirmaries all over the Christian West (and world for that matter)! It's because male circumcision promotes cleanliness in that area of the body. We AS Christians are most definitely ALLOWED to do that too, for that reason. It's simply not for religious reasons anymore.

I'm sorry, your Biblical ignorance is just too much for me to even both continuing response. You are way out... there.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, jeffweeder.
These are rather unfortunate translations of 1 Timothy 4:1 and Matthew 24:10. To say "fall away" is rather like someone saying they "fell in love" with someone, or rather "fell out of love" with someone, or "fell into sin." To say "fell in" or "fell out" or "fell into" is to suggest that the move was an ACCIDENT; that it wasn't really the person's fault.

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The text has never suggested to me that it could be an accident.
God calls us out in his grace not wanting anyone to perish and FALL short of the blessing.
It was no accident that Judas was selected, Jesus called him a freind , yet he went out into perdition through the choice he made.



[quote retrobyter]　
18 Children, a-last hour/time it-is, and like/as you-have-heard that one-opposed-to-the-Messiah shall-come, and now ones-opposed-to-the-Messiah many are-present, by-which we-know that a-last hour/time it-is.
19 Out-from us they-departed but not they-were out-from us; if for out-from us they-were, they-have-stayed would/wanted/wished with us; but so-that they-might-be-exposed that not they-were all out-from us.

18 Children, it's a last hour, and as you have heard that one opposed to the Messiah shall come, even now many opposed to the Messiah are present, by which we know that it is a last hour.
19 They issued out from us but they were not [sent] out from us; for if they were [sent] out from us, they would have wanted to stay with us; but [it was] so that they might be exposed that they all were not [sent] out from us.

There is a crucial message embedded within these verses found in the word "antichristos": Knowing that "Christos," shortened to "Christ" in English transliteration, means the same as the Hebrew word "Mashiach," transliterated into English as "Messiah," the question becomes this: Do we today REALLY KNOW what a Hebrew-speaking person in Yeshua`s day meant when he used the word "Mashiach?" For that matter, do we really even know what a Greek-speaking person in Yeshua`s century meant when he used the word "Christos?" What did it mean for them to say that Yeshua` was the "Mashiach?" I submit to you that most believers today don't mean the same thing when they use the word "Christ."[/quote]

Good points. I like Pauls testimony in acts 26
　
"So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. 21 For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death. 22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
24 While Paul was saying this in his defense, Festus said in a loud voice, "Paul, you are out of your mind! Your great learning is driving you mad." 25 But Paul said, "I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I utter words of sober truth. 26 For the king knows about these matters, and I speak to him also with confidence, since I am persuaded that none of these things escape his notice; for this has not been done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the Prophets? I know that you do." 28 Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian." 29 And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains."


Pauls testamony about Jesus Christ is based on nothing more but what the Hebrew prophets were testifying to about the Messiah. The OT and the Holy Spirit in Paul clearly impressed Agrippa.

jeffweeder said:

Only God knows those who are truly his.,

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [sup]2 [/sup]Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;.2 Pet 2.

Nice chatting with you.

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What's the matter buddy??? Don't like being corrected? So you resort to calling me a false prophet and say that God knows those who are truly His?

Well it hasn't been nice chatting with you!

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

You know the old saying, "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen!

BYE!

kaoticprofit said:

So you resort to calling me a false prophet and say that God knows those who are truly His?

Well it hasn't been nice chatting with you!

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:blink: I never called you a false prophet .This is the second time you have misunderstood me.
I was simply reminding you that scripture testifies to the fact that it is only God who knows those who are truly his, and he alone can see the heart and judge on these matters......and that Peter warned his congregation that false prophets would come among them and introduce heresy ....I was expanding on what i was trying to say in previous posts.

Hi Oliver,

Your words: “First, I would very much object to the idea that the church is so strongly united with Christ that the church is part of the bridegroom. I cannot see any support for that, and verses where Paul refers to betrothing a local church to Christ seem to contradict it strongly. If your suggestion were correct, he would not use such a metaphor.”

Christ is the “Head”, the church is the body. You can’t get more unified than that. Together we are one complete bridegroom, imo. In all of Paul’s writings he is speaking to all the church of all generations though it is personified by the church he is addressing at the time. If we think his words are only for that specific church at that specific time than it reduces the bible to a mere history book of the church. Paul was using a metaphor to show a relationship to one God, not many.

Quote

Jer. 14:18 tells us that Judah will unite (marry?) Israel.
Your words: “Bad reference. Perhaps you mean 3:18 "In those days the house of Judah shall join the house of Israel, and together they shall come from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers for a heritage." There is nothing about marriage here; it is the reuniting of the sundered kindoms.”

Yeah, you’re right it is a bad reference and I can’t figure out what I had in mind so we’ll just ignore that part.

Your words: “The bible uses various metaphors and does not stick to just one for each purpose. However, let me remind you that, in marriage, "the two shall become one flesh", so marriage achieves the complete fulfilment of our being made the body of Christ.”

We become part of His body at salvation, a marriage is not needed to attain that fulfillment. It is automatic.

Your words: “What Paul is saying is that human marriage is a picture of a spiritual reality. He is not saying that Christ and the church is like marriage; it is the other way round. Human marriage is like Christ and the church. By looking at the relation between Christ and the church, we can see what marriage ought to be like.”

I agree

Your words: “This, incidentally, explains why there is no marrying or giving in marriage in the resurrection: we are corporately married to Christ already and therefore are not available.”

I think that’s stretching it a bit. I don’t believe that is what Christ had in mind at all in that reference.

Your words: “The guests at the wedding feast of the Lamb are redeemed Israel and Gentiles who have been converted after the removal of the church. Matt 22 is still being addressed to Jews; the church does not yet exist. White robes symbolise the righteousness of Christ, which is given to us. He has prepared good deeds for us to walk in, so there is no question of earning anything here. Also consider this: ...they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (John 6:28-29)

The church officially began, imo, at Christ’s mention of it in Matt. 16:18 and Matt. 18:17. In the rest of the gospels after this point, including Matt. 22, Christ is speaking to the disciples as the founding fathers of the church and no longer as Jews. Thus your identity of the guests is also questionable.

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If you multiply the length of the city of New Jerusalem by the height (12,000 furlongs) you get 144,000. If you multiply the breadth by either the length or the height to acquire the general mathematical area you get 144,000.

Your words: “Actually 12,000 squared is 144,000,000. In any case, this is a solid, so you really want 12,000 cubed (or possibly one third of that, if the city is a pyramid).”

Well, thanks a lot Oliver, I am now officially embarrassed :unsure: that someone other than myself caught my colossal mathematical goof. What I meant to say is that if you multiply the height, width or length (12,000 furlongs each) by either the 12 foundations or the 12 gates you get 144,000.

I’ve always thought of the NJ as a cube.

jeffweeder said:

:blink: I never called you a false prophet .This is the second time you have misunderstood me.
I was simply reminding you that scripture testifies to the fact that it is only God who knows those who are truly his, and he alone can see the heart and judge on these matters......and that Peter warned his congregation that false prophets would come among them and introduce heresy ....I was expanding on what i was trying to say in previous posts.

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That's funny. Our discussion wasn't about false prophets or about God knowing his own. And when I look at what was underlined and bolded....
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Only God knows those who are truly his.,

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [sup]2 [/sup]Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;.2 Pet 2.

Nice chatting with you.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't believe you.

You just took offense that you've been corrected!

Be nice the next time I correct you!

And maybe if you get lucky, you'll correct me!

So now you think im a liar

For what its worth i will explain why i underlined and bolded those parts...

only god knows those who are his..,

anyone can call themselves a Church or Christian, but it doesnt make it so, as many will say to him Lord Lord but he never knew them.

among you...,

In the Church there will be false teachers among us.

many will follow...,

Many in the Church will follow after false teaching.

The point of me doing that was to show that there is a falling away from sound Apostolic doctrines from within the Church.



Sorry but i dont believe you have corrected me at all,... but this is a work in progress for us all i would have thought.

The only way our Lord Jesus used the Israelite wedding feast in relation to His Church was as guests of the Bridegroom (Matt.22; Luke 12). Even in His parable of the ten virgins, it's not those virgins that wed the bridegroom. Even John the Baptist symbolically labeled himsef as a friend of the Bridegroom (John 3:29).

The pre-trib doctrinists are using that to try and show Christ comes for His bride (The Church) prior to the tribulation. They have believed the lie that Christ pulls them out of the tribulation for so long now, that's it's no problem for them to create all sorts of other interludes to make their pre-trib secret rapture theory 'sound' true.

For the new Christian, that is a test upon you, to see who you're gonna' listen to. God allows those to deceive themselves as much as they want, simply because they don't listen to Him in His Word as written. In Ezekiel 13 God even gives us a warning about false pastors that teach His people to 'fly' to save their souls, telling us that He is against them (check it out if you don't believe me). Our Lord Jesus warned us about hirelings in His Church that preach for wheat and barley (i.e., money), and we should listen to Him (John 10).

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 are direct statements by our Lord Jesus showing that His coming to gather His Church is after... the great tribulation He spoke of there. No pre-trib secret rapture believer has ever been able to refute His Word there, and never will be able to.


Since John Darby of 1830's Britian fell into the false pre-trib secret rapture lie, he and those of the Brethren Movement began the Dispensationalism lie with trying to separate Israel apart from Christ's Church which IS The Church of God.

The reason they started that Dispensationalist separation lie of Israel apart Christ's Church was to try and drum up support for their first lie, the pre-trib secret rapture theory. It's because God's Word is CLEAR that His people are going to GO THROUGH the great tribulation our Lord Jesus forewarned of. So they created the falsehood about "tribulation saints" that they ONLY apply to Israel, and not to any of Christ's Church, because they say Christ's Church will be gone... just prior to the tribulation!

And it's very, very, easy to know they're telling a lie with that "tribulation saints" idea. It's because our Lord Jesus was specifically speaking to His elect disciples and Apostles about the tribulation events in Matt.24 and Mark 13, and showing how the false one of Matt.24:23-26 will almost deceive His Own elect if it were possible! In other words, Christ showed by that His own ELECT will go through that tribulation He forewarned of. And His ELECT belong to His what???

To HIS CHURCH!

And like Apostle Paul said about Christ's Body, His Church, there is no difference between Jew or Gentile, both as believers on Christ Jesus are ONE BODY (Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 3:6; Colossians 3:11-12; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, etc.).

So how can PART of Christ's Church be raptured away prior to the tribulation, while the rest of Christ's Church stays here on earth to go through the tribulation??? It's impossible, for THAT would mean a SPLIT in Christ's ONE Body of His Church! That's how easy it is to know the pre-trib secret rapture idea is a big fat juicy lie only to be served upon the gullible and Biblically unlearned. And those false prophets behind the pre-trib lie depend on their congregations to be lazy and ignorant of God's Word!


The Covenants And Promises To Israel Continued To Christ's Church

Who are these freaks that say Christ's Church used to be mainly made up of Israelites, and now is mainly only made up of Gentiles? Who are those liars?

A simple Bible study through the Book of Acts reveals both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles joined together under The New Covenant Jesus Christ. Same thing in the other New Testament Epistles, especially with Paul. Don't allow the fakes to lie to you about that Christian Church history in Acts and all throughout the NT Epistles.

That is HOW God's covenants and promises per His Old Testament prophets 'continued' to Christ's Church per The New Covenant. The New Covenant was OT prophecy to Israel, and to Gentiles. The Book of Isaiah covers it a lot. Read it. It's about The Gospel of Jesus Christ; yes, even BACK in the Old Testament Books! Even David was a prophet, did you know that? David was given the prophecy of the events of Christ's crucifixion in Psalms 22, even about 1,000 years before it happened! So can anyone in their right mind say The Gospel of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Israel, when It was a promise to them first?


How The Covenants And Promises Continued To Christ's Church:

THE Promise, the MAIN Promise in all of God's Word, is... The Gospel Salvation of Jesus Christ. And it is a Promise ONLY by Faith. God gave that Promise to Abraham first, 430 years PRIOR to the giving of the law through Moses (read Genesis). Righteousness was 'accounted' to Abraham because of his Faith, and that involved that Promise of Salvation given him first. This is why Apostle Paul directly compares Abraham's Faith with the same Faith all those who have believed on Jesus Christ have. Paul even called Abraham our spiritual father by that (see Romans 4 & Galatians 3).

But DON"T just stop there about that Promise given to Abraham, for it CONTINUED through... whom? To Abraham's son Isaac. Then where did It go? It then continued to Isaac's son Jacob. This is why God is called The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob. It's because... of The Gospel Promise having continued... through them specifically.

Then what major event happened with Jacob involving inheritance of that Promise? Jacob wrestled with The Angel of The Lord and received a blessing, AND a new name! What name? ISRAEL. Do you know what that name ISRAEL means? It means 'to prevail with God's help'. Let me ask you brethren, are you a 'prevailer' with Christ's help like Jacob was? I hope so, for that's the idea our Lord Jesus was giving when He commanded us to 'overcome' in Revelation.

So the next time... you see that name ISRAEL and think something like, "Oh, that's just that little ol nation over in the middleast, and those in the world who call themselves Jews", think again! Per God's Word, ISRAEL are those who 'overcome' in Christ Jesus. It applies specifically... to those in Christ Jesus as GOD's Israel, not just national Israel. Why's that? Have you forgotten already how that name ISRAEL is involved with The Gospel Promise going to Jacob???

So what's the difference between the Jews who claim that title of ISRAEL vs. the ISRAEL per God's Salvation Promise of The Gospel? It's simple. Those of national Israel that still refuse Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour are rebellious still, that's all. Apostle Paul revealed at the end of Romans 11 how that portion Israel that God blinded will have their blindness removed when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Even though there are many foreigners not of the seed of Israel mixed within that group, God still recognizes those Jews born of Israel still as part of His ISRAEL. Those that don't remain in unbelief will be... joined to the ISRAEL of Christ's Church when He returns.

So how did The Gospel get to Gentiles so they could become part of God's ISRAEL under His Promise to Abraham by Faith?

Christ specifically called Paul to go preach The Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 9). Peter was given to do that some also (Acts 10), even as others of the Apostles were too (Acts 8 with Philip preaching to the eunuch). Through Apostle John our Lord Jesus sent His Revealtion to the seven Churches in Asia Minor, which were made up of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles. That showed the Gospel ball among the Gentiles was well already rolling!

Apostles Peter and Paul were both at Rome, and martyred there. Paul was captive in his home in Rome while allowed to preach The Gospel there to anyone who came there. In Romans and Timonthy Paul shows a link to Britian's Claudia and her family, an association with the British king and his family held captive in Rome in Paul's days. Per history, Claudia was already a Christian from Britian when she married one of the Roman officers stationed in Britian. That's how The Gospel became established in the Christian West first after It was preached in the middleast and rejected by the majority in the middleast.

Per both Bible history, and archeaological history, the majority of the ten tribed "house of Israel" were scattered further from Assyria to Asia Minor and Europe. That is where many of the Jews of the "house of Judah" were also later scattered among the Gentiles after their own captivity in Babylon for 70 years. Many, many of them became believers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and founders of later Christian Churches in the west.

But ONLY a small remnant of the "house of Judah" (Jews) actually returned to Jerusalem after their separate captivity to Babylon in Daniel's days. Ezra 2 reveals exactly which ones returned to Jerusalem to build the city and 2nd temple, including many of foreign birth that were not of Israelite origin at all. That's who orthodox Judaism aligns with still today, the "house of Judah". That includes the unbelieving Jews scattered outside the middleast also. But with the larger portion, the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), that's a whole other story.

Did you know the Promise to Abraham by Faith INCLUDES specific material promises involving God's Birthright blessings? ISRAEL is God's firstborn (Exo.4:22). And God gave His Birthright to His ISRAEL. That is included in the Promise He gave to Abraham which was by Faith. It involved inheritance of much land in the middleast, a seed as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, a blessing of plenty of corn and wine (i.e., material resources of the earth), ruling the gates of his enemies, and of course stewardship of The Gospel by Faith.

But did you know that God also called Ephraim His firstborn? (Jer.31:9). He said He is a Father to ISRAEL and Ephraim is His firstborn. How can that Birthright to the firstborn then apply to Ephraim?

Who did The Promise 'continue' with after Jacob? It continued with his son Joseph. The blessings of a firstborn is shown with Joseph who was separated from his brethren. His dream of Gen.37 also reveals that he would be over his eleven brethren, the other sons of Jacob. Then who did the Promise continue with? It continued with Joseph's sons EPHRAIM and Manasseh (1 Chron.5). Remember, the Promise to Abraham involved God's Birthright to His firstborn Israel, and then... Ephraim.

Did you know that God setup a leader from the tribe of Ephraim as king over the "house of Israel" after Solomon's days? Ephraim was the head tribe over the ten-tribed northern kingdom of "Israel" when God split Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11 through 1 Kings 13). Solomon's son Rehoboam became king of Judah over the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem in the southern kingdom. The two kingdoms even had war against each other.

Then because of the northern kingdom of Israel's false idol worship, God brought the kings of Assyria and he took them all away captive to areas of the north in Assyria, completely out of the holy lands. Only those of the "house of Judah" remained. That's how the majority of ISRAEL became lost by God scattering them. Judah, Benjamin, and Levi never became lost, as God preserved them, and their heritage as part of Israel, even after the majority of them were scattered later also.

But God's Birthright blessings that involve the Promise by Faith, remained with a remnant of the ten tribes even in their scattering among the Gentiles. When Christ came and was crucified, and The Gospel then went primarily... to where? To Asia Minor and Europe. Britain even became the first Christinized nation per Christian history, a history which even the Roman Church admitted in several of their councils, including Augustine (see early Culdee church history in Britain). Why was The Gospel spread and received there next after the passion of Christ?

It's because that's where the head of Ephraim was scattered to, along with the majority of the ten tribes of Israel, when they left their Assyrian captivity. And THAT is why God's covenants and promises can be found there only in early Christian history of the West. Still today, the majority of God's covenants and promises CANNOT be found among the Jews, not in the holy lands, and not outside there either. It's because the Promise went to both believing Israelite and believing Gentiles where the majority of the seed of the ten tribes were scattered to, and then from there preached to all nations, with Gentiles in other nations becoming joined with them AS... CHRIST'S CHURCH, HIS ISRAEL by FAITH on JESUS CHRIST.

Shalom, rockytopva.

rockytopva said:

... I am wrong everyday concerning the rapture... For I live for it to happen at any day and at any moment...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:24
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

So... Since I am in error everyday pertaining to the subject it does not matter to me whether a church believes in pre-trib or not... I am obedient to scripture... I am at peace.

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That's GOOD! You're absolutely right! We SHOULD be "ready" every day! Sometimes, I think we put so fine a point on a pencil that we couldn't write with it on normal paper! It'd poke right through the paper! We can be "right", or we can be "ready!" This is a struggle for many computer programmers and mathematicians and scientists: You can be TOO accurate and no longer be practical! There comes a point when there's been too much testing of a program or a theory, and it has to be put into some practical use. If you don't put your program or your theory out there for people to use, you'll not make any money with it and you will have lost your job!

Thanks for that!