The pre-tribulational rapture

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7angels

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OLIVER,

you seem to have a gift for teaching even if people do not seem to agree with your views. i agree with your views but i am not able to explain the pretrib rapture like you can.

could you explain these for me please so i know how they apply?

One scriptural pointer that I forgot is the correspondence of the feasts of Israel to prophetic events.

The spring feasts (Passover, Unleavend bread and First fruits) are prophetic of Jesus' first coming, his sacrifice, his sinlessness and his resurrection. The feast of weeks (Pentecost) is prophetic of the founding of the church. The autumn feasts are prophetic of the events of the last days.

First is the feast of Trumpets; this is prophetic of the rapture of the church. The final long trumpet blast of this day was called the last trumpet, and it is this, not the 7th trumpet of Revelation, that Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15.

The day of Atonement is prophetic of Israel's repentance and restoration.

The feast of tabernacles is prophetic of God in Christ' and his finally dwelling among his redeemed people.

TO ALL WHOM THIS APPLIES. JUST BECAUSE A PERSON HAS A DIFFERENT BELIEF THEN YOU IS NO REASON ARGUE. WE ARE TOLD ACCORDING TO THE WORD TO BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN THE REASONS OF WHY WE BELIEVE THE WAY WE DO. LET US NOT LOSE FOCUS OF THE MAIN OBJECTIVE WHICH TO MAKE SURE WE ARE ALL SAVED AND GOING TO HEAVEN. EVERYTHING ELSE COME SECOND. THESE FORUMS SHOULD BE A PLACE OF LEARNING AND NOT STRIFE.

God bless
 

oliver

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7angels
could you explain these for me please so i know how they apply?

I'm not sure what more you want me to say. You already quoted me giving the bare bones of it:
The spring feasts (Passover, Unleavend bread and First fruits) are prophetic of Jesus' first coming, his sacrifice, his sinlessness and his resurrection. The feast of weeks (Pentecost) is prophetic of the founding of the church. The autumn feasts are prophetic of the events of the last days.

First is the feast of Trumpets; this is prophetic of the rapture of the church. The final long trumpet blast of this day was called the last trumpet, and it is this, not the 7th trumpet of Revelation, that Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15.

The day of Atonement is prophetic of Israel's repentance and restoration.

The feast of tabernacles is prophetic of God in Christ' and his finally dwelling among his redeemed people.

The Spring feasts should be uncontroversial, I hope. They commence at the beginning of the barley harvest.

Passover (Pesach) was instituted as a memorial of the first Passover (Exodus 12). Each household was to take a lamb and kill it "between the evenings" (v 6) on the 14th of Abib, which was now made the first month of the year. The blood of the lamb was to be daubed on the doorposts and lintel of the house, and everyone was to stay inside the house, so that the destroying angel should see the blood and pass over that house. In every house in Egypt, where there was no blood, the first-born son died. The lamb was to be roasted and eaten that night, and anything left over was to be burnt up. It was to be eaten with herbs and unleavened bread, and all leaven was to be removed from the house.

Passover prefigures the death of Jesus as the substitute for us, when he paid the penalty of our sin on the cross. In Genesis 22 we read how Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, Isaac, but that at the last moment God showed him a ram caught in a thicket, which he sacrificed instead. The lamb stands for Jesus, who is the substitute, dying in our place.

The blood splashed on the doorposts and lintel indicate that the household has deliberately taken shelter under the blood. In order to be saved we have to come into the house; similarly Noah was brought into the ark and sealed up in it. Similarly , at the rapture, the church will be taken into the bridal chamber in heaven while destruction comes on the earth. Anyone who is outside suffers God's wrath.

The lamb was to be entirely consumed that night; Jesus paid the full price and poured out his life as an offering for sin; indeed, he was made sin for us. (2 Cor 5:21; John 3:14; Numbers 21:9) The sin offering was entirely burnt up. (Ex 29:13-14; Lev 4:8-12)

In the bible, leaven stands for sin, which puffs the sinner up with pride. All leaven had to be removed from the house, and this prefigures the sinless perfection of Jesus, who knew no sin. The Passover leads straight into the next feast.

The feast of unleavened bread continues for 7 days after the Passover and continues to prefigure the sinless perfection of Jesus, as well as the fact that his righteousness is made available to us. It commemorates the Exodus, when the Israelites had no time to let their bread rise when they left Egypt, but had to bundle up their unleavened dough and set out. Anyone who eats leaven during the feast is to be cut off from his people, which prefigures the total absence of sin among the redeemed. This will be fulfilled for Israel after the Lord returns and implements the promise of Jer 31:31, but the church can share in it now to the extent that we walk in the Spirit, and we will share in it fully at the rapture, when we will be completely freed from sin. ...when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

On the first day of the week after the first sabbath after Passover is the feast of first fruits. (Lev 23:10-14) Here, the Israelites were to offer the very first sheaf of the harvest to the Lord. By the first century this had become a ritual carried out by the high priest, who ceremonially cut a sheaf and then presented it in the temple on that Sunday morning. This prefigures Jesus as the very first man to be resurrected. At the time that the high priest presented his sheaf in the temple, Jesus ascended to the Father to present himself as the first fruits of the harvest of the resurrection. That was why he said to Mary Magdalene, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17) but afterwards allowed his disciples to touch him. The first fruit had to be offered in order for the people to be accepted. (Lev 23:11)

Since they are contiguous, these three feasts are collectively known either as Passover or as Unleavened Bread.

The last Spring feast comes at the time of the wheat harvest, and occurs 7 weeks after the sabbath after Passover. (Lev 23:15-21) Hence it is called the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot). This was the feast at which God sent his Spirit in power on his church (Acts 2). This feast prefigures the church. Notably, this is the only sacrifice that includes leaven, and two leavened loaves are to be offered. This prefigures the uniting of Jew and Gentile in the church; it also prefigures our state in this dispensation, having the Holy Spirit indwelling us but also still having the sin nature. Part of the ceremony in Jesus' time was that on the last day of the feast the priests would process down to the pool of Siloam and bring back water to pour out on the altar. Jesus upstaged this: On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:37-39) At Pentecost, this promise was fulfilled for the believers.

In the autumn, after all the harvest is complete, come the three Autumn feasts. As the major events of Jesus first coming, his death and resurrection and the creation of the church, were prefigured by the Spring feasts, we should expect the events of his second coming to be prefigured by the Autumn feasts. There are three of these, making up the seven that signifies completeness.

On the first day of the seventh month is the Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah). This day is also the first day of the civil year, and is thought to be the day of creation, So this feast is also the Jewish new year's day: Rosh HaShanah. On this day there is a blast of trumpets. In fact, there are many blasts, but they conclude with a blast as long as the trumpeter can last, which is called the Great Trumpet, or the Last Trumpet. This is what Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

This is clearly the same event as is described in 1 Thess 4:12-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

As this event is the first of the autumn feasts, it prefigures the first event of the second coming, the rapture of the church. The church is a new creation; on this new year's day, the anniversary of creation, we take on the full glory of that new creation, for we will be free of sin for ever and for ever be with the Lord.

On the 10th of the month comes the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). This is the day when Israel must fast in token of repentance. Two goats are prepared and symbolically the sins of Israel are placed on one chosen by lot. (Lev 16:21) This is the scapegoat, which is driven out into the wilderness. The other is sacrificed.

“And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you. For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins. It is a Sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute forever...And this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins.” (Lev 16:29-31,34)

Israel must afflict themselves. This prefigures the fulfilment of the following prophecy:

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves. (Zechariah 12:14)

which will occur when Jesus returns, as the leaders of Israel will finally ask him to do.

Finally, on the fifteenth of the seventh month, comes the Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth). (Lev 23:33-36,39-43) This commemorates the Israelites' dwelling in booths or tents during their wandering in the wilderness. It is also the time when the release of debts in the sabbatical year was to happen (Deut 31:10)

Associated with this feast is Psalm 118:

Open to me the gates of righteousness,
that I may enter through them
and give thanks to the LORD.
This is the gate of the LORD;
the righteous shall enter through it.
I thank you that you have answered me
and have become my salvation.
The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.
This is the LORD's doing;
it is marvelous in our eyes.
This is the day that the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Save us, we pray, O LORD!
O LORD, we pray, give us success!
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!
We bless you from the house of the LORD.
The LORD is God,
and he has made his light to shine upon us.
Bind the festal sacrifice with cords,
up to the horns of the altar!
You are my God, and I will give thanks to you;
you are my God; I will extol you.
Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
for his steadfast love endures forever!

(Ps 118:19-29)

This is the Messianic psalm that the crowds quoted on Palm Sunday as Jesus rode into Jerusalem: And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!”. (Matt 21:9, quoting Ps 118:25-26) But their timing was out; the Psalm was traditionally sung at the Feast of Tabernacles, rather than at Passover These are the words that the leaders of Israel must say to welcome Jesus as their Messiah at his return.

From the fact that Zechariah, father of John the Baptist, was in the priestly division of Abijah we may conclude that he was serving in the fifteenth and sixteenth week of the year. (1 Chron 24:10) That would be around the middle to end of July, depending on the time of the new moon at the start of the first month, Abib. Assuming his wife conceived after that, and Jesus was 6 months younger than John, Jesus' birth would be 15 months later, around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles; so in his first coming he "tabernacled among us" (John 1:14). In his second coming he will be established as king Messiah in Jerusalem, living in the midst of his redeemed people.

Then the temporary dwellings that the Israelites had in the desert and which are currently commemorated by this feast will be transformed into permanent secure dwellings, because the Lord himself will be living among them as their king. In the millennium, the nations will be obliged to come to Jerusalem for this feast, but none of the others. (Zechariah 14:16-19) The feast will then be to celebrate the king's presence dwelling among them and the fact that all of Israel will be holy (Zech 14:20-21). The sabbatical year will have come and all debts released, for God forgives us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

++++++++


Retrobyter

Your focus on the indwelling of the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) is insufficient to divide these peoples! In fact, the "MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION IS BROKEN DOWN" between them within the Messiah! It is only OUTSIDE of the Messiah that Isra'el and the Gentiles are separate groups of people!

But the church is something new, neither Jew not Gentile but the union of both in Christ. Only those baptised are made one in Christ:

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27-28)

and made to drink of the one Spirit:

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
(1 Cor 12:13)

Once the church is removed, those who are left who repent and believe in the Lord will no longer be incorporated into the church, because the church will not be there.

Dispensationalism, which is different than the pretribulational rapturist point of view in particular but often goes hand in hand with it, is an error! God has NEVER dealt with human beings in different ways after the Fall! They (We) have always been "saved" (or rather, "justified by God") on the basis of His grace, through faith, and by blood! Nothing else would do! So, there's no such thing as a "dispensation of grace" versus a "dispensation of the Law (the TORAH)!" The ONLY difference is that they were looking forward to the Messiah while we look backward to the Messiah and know His name is Yeshua` Natsaret, haMashiach Elohiym l-Melekh Yehudiym, l-Melekh Yisra'el, l-Melekh haMlakhiym! Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah of God to be King of the Jews, to be King of Isra'el, to be King of Kings!

I don't dispute that. Certainly no one can be saved except through the blood of Christ and the grace of God. But dispensationalism is not about a different way of being saved, as if Israel could be saved by the law, but about the different roles and course of life set out for the church, for Israel, and also for the Gentiles who will be converted after the church has been removed. The church's role is to be the bride of Christ; Israel's role, after their national repentance, is to be chief of the nations on earth. The Gentiles converted after the removal of the church will either be separately martyred and raised to reign with Christ or else will enter the millennial kingdom as the Gentile nations. All will be saved through the blood of the Lamb, but they will not all have the same course of life after that.

Thus, it is GENTILE BELIEVERS (to which most refer as the "church") who are given the shot of being added to His Kingdom! The Isra'elites merely must have the "blinders" removed! Once they can see that Yeshua` haMashiach is THEIR PROMISED MESSIAH, everything falls into place for them! It will be GENTILE believers who must re-learn what they think they know when the time of Resurrection, Transformation, and "Rapture" comes and we fly off with the Messiah - not to "heaven," but THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the skies - TO ISRA'EL as the Messiah arrives for the Rescue

Can you give any scripture to back that up? What I see is Jesus' promise:

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." (John 14:1-3)

That means he is currently preparing those rooms in heaven, not on earth, and will take us to be with him there.

Also this is a possible hint of the rapture:

Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until the fury has passed by.
For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it,
and will no more cover its slain.

(Isaiah 26:20-21)

Surely those chambers are ther rooms that Jesus is preparing.

and the time of His Kingdom (which shall NEVER end, not just for a thousand years) begins!

The thousand years are mentioned 6 times in Revelation 20. At the end of them:

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

The Millennium is just the time haSatan ("the Enemy" in Hebrew) is incarcerated in the bottomless pit! And, it is DURING the Millennium in which the parables of Matthew 13 will be fulfilled.

No, I can't agree with that. These parables are about the church age. Especially, the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven speak of the evil that is in the church during this current age.
 

revturmoil

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Kaotic, Your words: "Because Paul said.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Jesus was saying that about the heathen. Not for Christian's. We have end-time signs all over in scripture to indicate to Christians when those days arrive. The heathen may not or even care.

You make a big deal about context but Christ didn't give His word for the heathen. Heathen are not referred to as brethren by Christ or Paul. Paul didn't have to write about the times and the seasons because the Thessalonians were quite aware of the signs and the seasons. It is up to us to use His word to warn the heathen.

I've always said the rapture ( I've never claimed more than one) occurs after the great trib. If you can find a verse in the KJV that says that the "great trib" lasts for 1260 days, I might reconsider my position. Not troubles, trials, persecutions, hardships or whatever other attributes people want to claim is the great trib. Just one verse that says the great trib is 1260 days, a time, times and 1/2 a time, 42 months, or 3 1/2 yrs., that's all I ask for. If you can't find one than you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on. Just a personal opinion, as is my belief but I admit it.

An interpretation without context is no interpretation at all! Context is an important part of a good hermeneutic. Something many of you on this forum do not have!

Here is the passage. He is talking to his 'brethren.'

1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
Paul states that it's unnecessary that he tells them about the times and seasons. Why? Because they already know.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Now look at who PAUL IS REFERING TO AS COMING AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT! THOSE THAT ARE IN DARKNESS!

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Get it! He's refering to those who are in darkness when he comes as a thief in the night. THAT DAY WILL NOT OVERTAKE THE CHILDREN OF LIGHT AS A THIEF. ONLY THE ONES IN DARKNESS!

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

I know you don't believe in two raptures. But you break down the tribulation into two different periods. And that's the fabrication you use to fit your eschatology!
 

veteran

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OLIVER,

you seem to have a gift for teaching even if people do not seem to agree with your views. i agree with your views but i am not able to explain the pretrib rapture like you can.

could you explain these for me please so i know how they apply?

One scriptural pointer that I forgot is the correspondence of the feasts of Israel to prophetic events.

The spring feasts (Passover, Unleavend bread and First fruits) are prophetic of Jesus' first coming, his sacrifice, his sinlessness and his resurrection. The feast of weeks (Pentecost) is prophetic of the founding of the church. The autumn feasts are prophetic of the events of the last days.

First is the feast of Trumpets; this is prophetic of the rapture of the church. The final long trumpet blast of this day was called the last trumpet, and it is this, not the 7th trumpet of Revelation, that Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15.

The day of Atonement is prophetic of Israel's repentance and restoration.

The feast of tabernacles is prophetic of God in Christ' and his finally dwelling among his redeemed people.

TO ALL WHOM THIS APPLIES. JUST BECAUSE A PERSON HAS A DIFFERENT BELIEF THEN YOU IS NO REASON ARGUE. WE ARE TOLD ACCORDING TO THE WORD TO BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN THE REASONS OF WHY WE BELIEVE THE WAY WE DO. LET US NOT LOSE FOCUS OF THE MAIN OBJECTIVE WHICH TO MAKE SURE WE ARE ALL SAVED AND GOING TO HEAVEN. EVERYTHING ELSE COME SECOND. THESE FORUMS SHOULD BE A PLACE OF LEARNING AND NOT STRIFE.

God bless


But the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 IS... the idea of Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15.

The proof is because both are tied to the idea of the time of the resurrection and the end of this present world with Christ's return and future reign over all nations.
 

oliver

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But the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 IS... the idea of Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15.

No. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians decades before John wrote Revelation. He wrote to people whom he would expect to understand what he said. He cannot therefore be using a forward reference that they would have no means of understanding.

There was already something called "the last trumpet", so that is obviously what he was referring to.

If you were correct, we should expect to see the rapture prominently mentioned at Revelation 11:15, when the seventh trumpet is blown. It isn't mentioned at all.

The seventh trumpet is called just that in Revelation; it is not called "the last trumpet".

The seventh trumpet is blown by an angel, but the rapture occurs with the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thess 4:16)
 

Rex

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The first and primary purpose of the trumps was calling the tribes together as one nation, before the Door of the Tabernacle of God, to hear the voice of the Lord through His prophet, Numbers 10:1-3.

The second purpose of the blowing of the trumpets was for the Journeyings of the camp.
The third purpose for the blowing of the trumpets was the calling together of the princes, or leadership of the tribes.
The fourth purpose for the sounding of the trumpets was to sound an alarm.
The fifth purpose of the sounding of the trumpets was the call to war.
The sixth purpose for the sounding of the trumpets was to announce the celebration of the Feasts of the Lord.
The seventh purpose for the sounding of the trumpets in Israel was to gather the people to the solemn assemblies, to show God's people their transgression, and call them to mourning and repentance.
The eighth purpose was to announce the beginning of the months, to herald the arrival of a new phase in God's purposes.
The ninth was the announcing of offerings and sacrifices.
The tenth the anointing of kings.
The eleventh the dedication of the temple
Twelth the proclamation of the great year of Jubilee, when all creation is freed, restored to their inheritance again.

But the Last Trump is always the final trumpet to sound in any series.

George Fox 1706
The last tump.
If you can hear this trumpet sounding above the hue and cry of rapture, antichrist, mark of the beast, Christmas, Easter, denominationalism, sectarianism, mansions over the hilltop, cabins in the corner of gloryland, pie in the sky, religious programs, rituals, ceremonies, endless meetings, shepherding, coverings, cunningly devised fables, money raising schemes, false prophets, false healers, lying signs and wonders, and carnal health and wealth and prosperity doctrines; if you can mount up with wings as eagles and soar high above all this carnal, confused, frustrated clamor of noisy gongs and clanging cymbals, and hear the distinct, plain, unmistakable sound of this last trump then it can be said to you: Blessed art thou, overcomer, manchild, hundredfold, firstfruits: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. This is the last redemptive message and when it is finished sounding God will have made man in His image
 

revturmoil

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No. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians decades before John wrote Revelation. He wrote to people whom he would expect to understand what he said. He cannot therefore be using a forward reference that they would have no means of understanding.

There was already something called "the last trumpet", so that is obviously what he was referring to.

If you were correct, we should expect to see the rapture prominently mentioned at Revelation 11:15, when the seventh trumpet is blown. It isn't mentioned at all.

The seventh trumpet is called just that in Revelation; it is not called "the last trumpet".

The seventh trumpet is blown by an angel, but the rapture occurs with the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thess 4:16)

You are incorrect about this. The rapture is mentioned in Rev. 14:12 which is 'within' the seventh trumpet...... which definetely is the last trumpet! No amount of fabrication can overcome that! What fabricationist do is change the meaning of words and make up two different meanings or two different events. Every bible author uses slightly different terminology throughtout the bible to describe the rapture or the last trump, or tribulation etc.

The church is removed right before the LORD does battle at Armageddon to avoid "friendly fire" !

This is the rapture like it or not!
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 ¶And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Kaotic, Your words: "Because Paul said.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Jesus was saying that about the heathen. Not for Christian's. We have end-time signs all over in scripture to indicate to Christians when those days arrive. The heathen may not or even care.

You make a big deal about context but Christ didn't give His word for the heathen. Heathen are not referred to as brethren by Christ or Paul. Paul didn't have to write about the times and the seasons because the Thessalonians were quite aware of the signs and the seasons. It is up to us to use His word to warn the heathen.

I've always said the rapture ( I've never claimed more than one) occurs after the great trib. If you can find a verse in the KJV that says that the "great trib" lasts for 1260 days, I might reconsider my position. Not troubles, trials, persecutions, hardships or whatever other attributes people want to claim is the great trib. Just one verse that says the great trib is 1260 days, a time, times and 1/2 a time, 42 months, or 3 1/2 yrs., that's all I ask for. If you can't find one than you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on. Just a personal opinion, as is my belief but I admit it.

You base your pre-wrath belief on Daniel's 70th week. I DON"T!
I'm not sure how long tribulation is and I don't fabricate two tribulations out of one!
 

oliver

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The rapture is mentioned in Rev. 14:12 which is 'within' the seventh trumpet...... which definetely is the last trumpet!

The seventh trumpet is sounded in 11:15. A number of things happen after that; indeed chapter 12 changes topic entirely and goes back to the birth of Christ. However the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15, which is also the trumpet of God in 1 Thess 4, is the signal for the rapture to happen immediately. Also the rapture includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is not mentioned in Rev 14. In fact, Rev 14:12ff bears very little resemblance to 1 Thess 4.

As for the seventh trumpet's being the last trumpet, it certainly is the last of the seven in Revelation. But is that series of trumpets the same series that Paul was thinking of? Since Paul does not mention any of the others, and since this was revealed to John between forty and fifty years after Paul wrote, it seems most unlikely. On the other hand, Paul would have been very familiar with the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which had that specific name;and the Feast of Trumpets is connected with the end times. It is much likelier, therefore, that this is what he meant.
 

revturmoil

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The seventh trumpet is sounded in 11:15. A number of things happen after that; indeed chapter 12 changes topic entirely and goes back to the birth of Christ. However the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15, which is also the trumpet of God in 1 Thess 4, is the signal for the rapture to happen immediately. Also the rapture includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is not mentioned in Rev 14. In fact, Rev 14:12ff bears very little resemblance to 1 Thess 4.

As for the seventh trumpet's being the last trumpet, it certainly is the last of the seven in Revelation. But is that series of trumpets the same series that Paul was thinking of? Since Paul does not mention any of the others, and since this was revealed to John between forty and fifty years after Paul wrote, it seems most unlikely. On the other hand, Paul would have been very familiar with the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which had that specific name;and the Feast of Trumpets is connected with the end times. It is much likelier, therefore, that this is what he meant.

The feast of the trumpets have nothing to do with the seven trumpets. that's another fabrication to fit your eschatology! And just because all the rapture verses are not worded exactly the same doesn't mean they are not the same event. That's how you guys fabricate things into them.
You also said,

Also the rapture includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is not mentioned in Rev 14. In fact, Rev 14:12ff bears very little resemblance to 1 Thess 4.

The resurrection of the dead may not be mentioned in Rev. 14. But it is mentioned within the seventh seal!

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 

veteran

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No. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians decades before John wrote Revelation. He wrote to people whom he would expect to understand what he said. He cannot therefore be using a forward reference that they would have no means of understanding.

There was already something called "the last trumpet", so that is obviously what he was referring to.

If you were correct, we should expect to see the rapture prominently mentioned at Revelation 11:15, when the seventh trumpet is blown. It isn't mentioned at all.

The seventh trumpet is called just that in Revelation; it is not called "the last trumpet".

The seventh trumpet is blown by an angel, but the rapture occurs with the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thess 4:16)

The time of 'when' Paul wrote 1 Cor.15 vs. Christ giving John the Revelation has nothing... to do with assigning the events to totally different times. That is fallacy, big time, a lie by the doctrines of men. And that's easy to prove also, since many Scriptures in the OT prophets have yet to come to pass to this day, and they were written long before Paul or John was born.

The idea of the "last trump" means a final trumpet, the fartherest one out. And per Revelation that is the 7th Trumpet. It's about this event per the OT prophets...

Isa 27:13
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
(KJV)

Ps 47:5-9
5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of His holiness.
9 The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: He is greatly exalted.
(KJV)


That's the same trump of 1 Thess.4:16, the same trumpet as Paul's "last trump", and the same trumpet as the final 7th trumpet of Rev.11.

No one except the Pre-trib Secret Rapturists (and maybe Pre-Wrathers) require Rev.11 to mention 'rapture' language in order to believe the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period is the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. It's ignorance to think God had to put an emphatic statement about a rapture there just so His people would know what timing He meant there. Heck, even men's writings depend on the reader recognizing events given in a story line!
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, oliver.

...
Retrobyter

But the church is something new, neither Jew nor Gentile but the union of both in Christ. Only those baptised are made one in Christ:

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27-28)

and made to drink of the one Spirit:

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
(1 Cor 12:13)

Once the church is removed, those who are left who repent and believe in the Lord will no longer be incorporated into the church, because the church will not be there.

Says who? What Scriptures tell you THAT piece of fiction?! This mythology comes from a bad understanding of the word "ekkleesia," translated "church." All the word "church" means (which comes ultimately from the Greek word "kuriakon") is "of the Lord." The word "ekkleesia," stemming from the Greek prefix "ek-" meaning "out" and the word "kaleoo" meaning "I call," is a participle meaning "called out," usually referring to a "called out" group of people or a "called out" meeting. It was used both for all the various "churches" in the B'rit Chadashah (the NT) as well as some other groups of people, such as the town mob in Ephesus which were ready to do Paul bodily harm in Acts 19:32, 39 and 41, and the "assembly in the wilderness," the children of Isra'el, in Acts 7:38. These two were each an "ekkleesia." (By the way, in my scheme of transliteration, I use an "e" for epsilon, an "ee" for eta, an "o" for omicron and an "oo" for omega. Smooth breathing receives no mark, but rough breathing is represented by an "h." I also choose to use "f" for phi instead of the more common "ph.")

The word "church" today is a Sacred Cow that is so guarded today one would think that the Scripture that says, "Touch not the Lord's Anointed," was talking about the word "church!" When the Scriptures say that "Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it" (Ephesians 5:25), Paul was NOT talking about an organization or a corporation or such an entity of any kind! He was talking about PEOPLE! The Messiah didn't die for an organization; He died for PEOPLE! So, I have no compunction about slaughtering the Sacred Cow! It's not the organizations that we call "churches" today that the Messiah loved so much; He loves INDIVIDUALS and cares about the "two or three" who are "gathered in His name!" I believe that much of this fear to call a spade a spade comes from the millennia of the RCC putting such a high reverence on this entity they call the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" or the "Holy Roman Universal Church," with all its pomp and splendor (as if there was such a thing)!

All that the word "ekkleesia" conveys is that of a COLLECTIVE NOUN (actually, a gerund, since it is a participle that acts as a noun). It's no different than our words, "flock" of sheep or "herd" of cattle or "school" of fish or "pride" of lions! It's just a collective noun that means a "group" or a "congregation" of people who meet together for a purpose. And, there is no such thing as a "Universal Church!" That comes from Catholicism for the word "catholic" MEANS "universal!" When the Scriptures talked about "churches," it is a PLURAL word, meaning there's more than one of them! And, they were collections of people who could help each other in a community, could support one another, encourage one another, sympathize with one another, and stand up for each other! The symbolism of the body that Paul used in 1 Corinthians 12:1-31 was for a LOCAL church! A LOCAL group of people! It's kind of hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! The "churches" mentioned in Scripture were always local to a particular city or village: the "church at Ephesus," the "church at Sardis," the "church at Philadelphia," the "church at Corinth," etc.

So, tell me: How does this "universal THING" called a "church" get raptured away from others who will also come to know the LORD? What "corner" on the LORD do they have that other believers down through the centuries don't?! Why should they be privileged to go to "Heaven" and not others? Why should they have preferential treatment by getting YANKED out of this world prior to a judgment through which the LORD could protect them if they were here?! Are they somehow better than David the King, a "man after God's own heart" and from whom God never took His Spirit? Are they better than Moses, the "friend of God?" Are they better than Abraham, who bargained with God for the lives of others, who paid tithes to Melchizedek, and of whom it is said that "his faith was counted to him for righteousness?" Are they better than Enoch, who "walked with God?"

If the "church" is resurrected and raptured away, when do the OT believers get resurrected? And, when they are resurrected, do they stay here on earth in the Millennium or do they get to go to "Heaven," too? And, if you would say that the difference is in the indwelling of the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym, the Holy Spirit of God, what does this passage mean? To whom was it written?

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
KJV


And,

Ezekiel 36:16-28
16 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
KJV


Remember! The word "ekkleesia" was also used HERE:

Acts 7:35-40
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
KJV


So what makes ANYONE think that the "church" started at Kefa's (Peter's) declaration that Yeshua` was the Messiah, the Son of God, or at Shavu'ot or Pentecost, the anniversary of the giving of the Torah? (Torah doesn't mean "Law," either. It means "Instruction.") We've had such congregations of people since the children of Isra'el were in the wilderness!

Did you know that "baptism" is a JEWISH thing?! The "baptism" that Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) proffered to the people was a RITUAL CLEANSING! It was to demonstrate that they had repented of their sins! Look up the Hebrew word "mikvah!" It's a BAPTISTRY, a pool for submerging oneself as a ritual cleansing prior to giving their sacrificial offerings! Its existence is talked about in the Torah, the Pentateuch! They had to submerge themselves in LIVING WATERS - MOVING WATERS - to be cleansed. That is why Yochanan used the Yarden, the Jordan River.

Finally, there IS no "Heaven," per se! Those Scriptures that people say describe "Heaven" are actually those Scriptures about the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah.
And, we are NEVER told that we will be going to "Heaven"; instead, we are told that the New Jerusalem will be COMING HERE! We are never told or encouraged to anticipate "Heaven!" We are told to anticipate the RESURRECTION! And, when Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

...he didn't say we would be going to "Heaven!" All he said was "so shall we ever be with the Lord!" Wherever He goes, we'll go. So, who says He will be going back up to "Heaven?" Now that He's back, why wouldn't He proceed laterally on to the Middle East and rescue His people Isra'el, as the ancient prophecies promised?

I don't dispute that. Certainly no one can be saved except through the blood of Christ and the grace of God. But dispensationalism is not about a different way of being saved, as if Israel could be saved by the law, but about the different roles and course of life set out for the church, for Israel, and also for the Gentiles who will be converted after the church has been removed. The church's role is to be the bride of Christ; Israel's role, after their national repentance, is to be chief of the nations on earth. The Gentiles converted after the removal of the church will either be separately martyred and raised to reign with Christ or else will enter the millennial kingdom as the Gentile nations. All will be saved through the blood of the Lamb, but they will not all have the same course of life after that.

Sorry, but that's not quite right, either! The "Bride of Christ" is the New Jerusalem, according to Yochanan:

Revelation 21:1-2, 9-13
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
...

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
KJV


Verse 2 is a simile and verse 9 is a metaphor, but both are referring to the CITY, not to the "church!" And, if you will use the OT prophecies, you will find that ISRA'EL is the wife of YHWH! And, what will the New JERUSALEM be if not the new capital city of both Isra'el and the whole New Earth?! Now I'm not saying that you teach this, but it is wrong for people to teach that "Christ will reign for a thousand years." That's not true! Gavri'el (Gabriel) told Miryam,...

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV


The "thousand years" (Greek: chilia etee; Latin: mille annium contracted to millennium) are about the incarceration of haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy") and the Messiah's reign while He's locked away. His reign, however, doesn't end at the end of the Millennium, although 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 does talk about Yeshua` handing over the EMPIRE to the Father.

Dispensationalism is about
Thus, it is GENTILE BELIEVERS (to which most refer as the "church") who are given the shot of being added to His Kingdom! The Isra'elites merely must have the "blinders" removed! Once they can see that Yeshua` haMashiach is THEIR PROMISED MESSIAH, everything falls into place for them! It will be GENTILE believers who must re-learn what they think they know when the time of Resurrection, Transformation, and "Rapture" comes and we fly off with the Messiah - not to "heaven," but THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the skies - TO ISRA'EL as the Messiah arrives for the Rescue and the time of His Kingdom (which shall NEVER end, not just for a thousand years) begins!

Can you give any scripture to back that up? What I see is Jesus' promise:

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." (John 14:1-3, ESV)

That means he is currently preparing those rooms in heaven, not on earth, and will take us to be with him there.

Sure, I can give you Scriptures to back it all up, but before I do, let's look more carefully at the verses you just quoted: Yeshua` DID say that He was going to His "Father's house" to prepare a place for them (and I believe for us, too), and He did say that He would "come again and take them (and us) to Himself, so that where He is, we may be also," but one is ASSUMING that the two statements are connected when one believes that He was IMPLYING that He would be taking us to His "Father's house," especially if we add the word "immediately"! He never said THAT!

However, we can understand from other passages WHAT His "Father's house" is, WHERE it is now (in a general sense), and WHERE it will be in the future.

Revelation 21:2-3
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God (Greek: hee skeenee tou Theou = "the tent of the God") is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV


Hebrews 11:8-16
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: en skeenais katoikeesas = "in tents permanently-residing") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God (bound in the Hebrew title, Adonai = "my-Foundation-Layer").
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country (Greek: patrida = "a father-land").
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly (Greek: epouraniou = "of-above-the-sky"): wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
KJV


Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto (Greek: proseleeluthate = "ye-are-approaching") mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly (Greek: epouranioo = "in-above-the-sky") Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV


So, the "Father's house" IS the New Jerusalem, the mountain and the city of the living God, also called Zion. It is currently "above the sky" or "above the earth's atmosphere" or where we call "outer space," and it will be coming down to the New Earth because it comes "OUT OF the sky." I will post more, but I've got to let the editor "catch up." Currently, it's "lost its mind." Hopefully, this post won't be too messed up.
 

revturmoil

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Veteran said,

That's the same trump of 1 Thess.4:16, the same trumpet as Paul's "last trump", and the same trumpet as the final 7th trumpet of Rev.11.

...and the same word 'last' is used here...
Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,
...and here... Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
 

oliver

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kaoticprofit
As for the seventh trumpet's being the last trumpet, it certainly is the last of the seven in Revelation. But is that series of trumpets the same series that Paul was thinking of? Since Paul does not mention any of the others, and since this was revealed to John between forty and fifty years after Paul wrote, it seems most unlikely. On the other hand, Paul would have been very familiar with the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which had that specific name;and the Feast of Trumpets is connected with the end times. It is much likelier, therefore, that this is what he meant.[/background]
The feast of he trumpets have nothing to do with the seven trumpets. that's another fabrication to fit your eschatology! And just because all the rapture verses are not worded exactly the same doesn't mean they are not the same event. That's how you guys fabricate things into them.

I didn't say that the Feast of Trumpets was to do with the seven trumpets of Revelation. That is your own invention - or fabrication.

What I am saying is that Paul is much more likely to be referring to something that is already known than to something that has not yet been revealed at all, especially since he gives no other clues about it.

The details of scripture are important. Jesus and Paul both constructed arguments on a single word, or on the difference between singular and plural. If you can take two passages as different as 1 Thess 4 and Rev 14 and claim that the differences are not significant, you are to my mind distorting and disrespecting the scripture.


+++


veteran
The time of 'when' Paul wrote 1 Cor.15 vs. Christ giving John the Revelation has nothing... to do with assigning the events to totally different times. That is fallacy, big time, a lie by the doctrines of men. And that's easy to prove also, since many Scriptures in the OT prophets have yet to come to pass to this day, and they were written long before Paul or John was born.

You miss the point entirely. The point is that Paul would not, in writing to the Corinthians, make a reference to a revelation that John would not receive for another 40 or 50 years. He refers to "the last trumpet" without any explanation for his readers. Therefore he is much more likely to be referring to something they already know by that name, the final trumpet blast of the Feast of Trumpets, than to the last of a set of seven trumpets that they so far know nothing about.

Of course, to admit that undermines your own eschatological scheme.

The idea of the "last trump" means a final trumpet, the fartherest one out. And per Revelation that is the 7th Trumpet.

It means the last of a series. The context informs you which series. Nothing whatever about the context of 1 Corinthians would enable its first readers to identify the series of seven trumpets from Revelation, because that had not yet been revealed. You might as well claim that, since Joshua 4:9 says of the stones set up at the crossing of the Jordan "They are there to this day", we should expect to find them there right now.

Isaiah 27:3 is indeed about the end time, but the OT prophecies telescope the whole Day of the Lord so that even the first and second comings of Christ are not distinct. So it would be unreasonable to look there for details of the rapture of the church, when the church was a mystery not to be revealed for another 800 years. (I can't see that Psalm 47 - "God is gone up with a shout" - can have much to do with the end times, when Jesus is to come down, not go up.)


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Retrobyter,

The church, as a union of Jew and Gentile, is a mystery (Eph 3), which means something not previously revealed. Certainly εκκλησιa is used for the congregation of Israel in the wilderness, but it receives a different meaning in the new Testament. The church is much more than just a collection of individuals. In the same way, aγaπη (ag-ap-ee) receives a specialised meaning in the New Testament, which it did not have in the Old.

So, tell me: How does this "universal THING" called a "church" get raptured away from others who will also come to know the LORD? What "corner" on the LORD do they have that other believers down through the centuries don't?! Why should they be privileged to go to "Heaven" and not others? Why should they have preferential treatment by getting YANKED out of this world prior to a judgment through which the LORD could protect them if they were here?!

The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16-17)

There are no other believers at the time of the rapture. All are included. Those who have already died go first, then the rest of us. So I don't understand this talk of certain people's being "privileged". As to being yanked out before a judgement, this is what the Lord does, as he did for Noah and for Lot. Why should he put his own people though a judgement from which he could remove them?

Are they somehow better than David the King, a "man after God's own heart" and from whom God never took His Spirit? Are they better than Moses, the "friend of God?" Are they better than Abraham, who bargained with God for the lives of others, who paid tithes to Melchizedek, and of whom it is said that "his faith was counted to him for righteousness?" Are they better than Enoch, who "walked with God?"

Who was raptured, in fact! Those others have died. You speak as if current believers don't deserve to be rescued out of judgement. No one at all deserves anything of God! Neither David (the adulterer and murderer), nor Moses (who was not permitted to enter the land because he misrepresented God to the people) nor anyone else deserved or deserves anything at all but condemnation to hell. God offers his grace, which is God's Riches At Christ's Expense. Do you resent the idea that God should pour out his grace in this way as he has promised?

If the "church" is resurrected and raptured away, when do the OT believers get resurrected? And, when they are resurrected, do they stay here on earth in the Millennium or do they get to go to "Heaven," too? And, if you would say that the difference is in the indwelling of the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym, the Holy Spirit of God, what does this passage mean? To whom was it written?

It isn't clear when the OT saints are resurrected. (What happened to those dead who came to life when Jesus was crucified?) My guess is that they are resurrected at his return to earth and become inhabitants of the millennial kingdom, because God says that he will raise up David to be king over Israel.

So what makes ANYONE think that the "church" started at Kefa's (Peter's) declaration that Yeshua` was the Messiah, the Son of God, or at Shavu'ot or Pentecost, the anniversary of the giving of the Torah?

Jesus replied to Peter, "I will build my church." The church is something future at that point. And in Acts 11:15 Peter says, "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning." He clearly regards Pentecost as the beginning, not a continuation of something that already existed.

Did you know that "baptism" is a JEWISH thing?! The "baptism" that Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) proffered to the people was a RITUAL CLEANSING! It was to demonstrate that they had repented of their sins!

Yes, I did. But from Pentecost on, believers were baptised with water "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19), which is baptism into the church, and they were also baptised in Holy Spirit and thus spiritually incorporated into the body. (1 Cor 12:13)

Finally, there IS no "Heaven," per se! Those Scriptures that people say describe "Heaven" are actually those Scriptures about the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah.
And, we are NEVER told that we will be going to "Heaven"; instead, we are told that the New Jerusalem will be COMING HERE! We are never told or encouraged to anticipate "Heaven!" We are told to anticipate the RESURRECTION! And, when Paul said in1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,...
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

...he didn't say we would be going to "Heaven!" All he said was "so shall we ever be with the Lord!" Wherever He goes, we'll go. So, who says He will be going back up to "Heaven?" Now that He's back, why wouldn't He proceed laterally on to the Middle East and rescue His people Isra'el, as the ancient prophecies promised?

Of course, there is a heaven. To be precise there are three heavens, of which the third is the dwelling place of the angels in the presence of God. (One and two are the atmosphere and the rest of the universe respectively.) When Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for his disciples, where was he going? It wasn't on earth! And why would he prepare a place for us and not take us there?

Now very likely those rooms are the New Jerusalem, but it comes down from heaven and therefore it must be in heaven until that point. In Rev 21, John is told he will be shown the bride and he sees the New Jerusalem coming down. Now I cannot believe that the Lord will be wedded to a set of buildings, however wonderful. He must mean the inhabitants of the city rather than the city itself. If we are taken to be with the Lord in the place he has prepared, maybe we will continue to be there for ever, but it will be relocated to the new earth.

As to "why wouldn't He proceed laterally on to the Middle East and rescue His people Isra'el", the obvious reason is that first the great tribulation will come which will finally bring Israel to repent and ask him to return. Also, he will now be dealing with Israel again rather than with the church, so the church must be removed.

First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

(Romans 10:19-21)

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. (Romans 11:11)

Part of God's purpose in saving the Gentiles and building us into the church was to make Israel jealous. I wouldn't say that has worked all that well over the last 1900 years. Maybe God has in mind to accomplish that by the rapture, when Israel will see that he has removed the church, and thus many of Israel will be brought to repent and believe the gospel. What else might cause the 144,000 of Israel to turn to the Lord? Of course, he could simply override their wills, but that would be rather unlike him.
 

Trekson

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Kaotic, Your words: "I know you don't believe in two raptures. But you break down the tribulation into two different periods. And that's the fabrication you use to fit your eschatology."

No, I don't have to fabricate anything, I just read the word as written. I don't lump things together just to fit my eschatology as others do. Here are some facts.
1. There is no verse that foretells a seven year "tribulation" period.
2. There is no verse that foretells a 3 1/2 year "great tribulation" period.
3. There is no verse that equates the "great trib" with the "wrath of God".
4. Those that believe in such things are the true "fabricators".

I don't separate the "great trib" into two periods. You do, if you believe the first half of the 70th week is "plain trib" and the second half as "great trib".

The scriptures tell us what the great trib is and of it's short duration.Those who try to expand the "great trib" into a 3 1/2 yr. period are trying to pound a round peg into a square hole. It just doesn't work!

The only time a "great trib" is mentioned in Revelations is in Rev. 7:9-14 which shows the raptured/resurrected church arrival in heaven, which shows that they came out of the "great trib". In Matt. 24:22 it shows us the great trib is shortened (via rapture) for the sake of the elect (the church). Rev. 6:15 says the coming trumpet judgment are the wrath of the Lamb and Rev. 16:1 tells us the vials are the wrath of God. No great trib here just wrath which the church IS NOT appointed to. Maybe y'all just feel guilty and think you need to face the wrath of God to be worthy or something. God shows us in Matt. 24:29-31 that Jesus is coming to take His church home immediately after the great trib. The only thing that stretches the great trib into the latter 3 1/2 yrs. are your imaginations.

You want to know what else is interesting?

The only time "wrath" is mentioned in the Olivet discourse is in Luke's account in Cp. 21:24 which is speaking of 70 AD unless you want to argue that point as well. Don't you think if the great trib was the same as God's wrath, He might have mentioned in there somewhere? The reason that He didn't is plain to see for those who read scripture as written and not try to shove everything into a place it doesn't belong.

True foolishness is over emphasizing a two word phrase "last trump" that is only used once in scripture and making it a foundational piece of your false post-trib doctrine. That's as silly as taking a random two-word phrase from anywhere in scripture and building a doctrine around it.

If the "last trump" was as significant as you want it to be wouldn't all the writers of the Olivet discourse have commented on it? Mark and Luke don't even bother to mention it. Oliver and I have both shown you what the sound of the trump and the "last trump" means but YOU are the one who wants to disregard scripture and fabricate it to mean something else entirely with no other scriptural support!

To use one of your favorite phrases YOU'VE JUST BEEN DEBUNKED!!
 

ENOCH2010

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The only time a "great trib" is mentioned in Revelations is in Rev. 7:9-14 which shows the raptured/resurrected church arrival in heaven, which shows that they came out of the "great trib". In Matt. 24:22 it shows us the great trib is shortened (via rapture) for the sake of the elect (the church). Rev. 6:15 says the coming trumpet judgment are the wrath of the Lamb and Rev. 16:1 tells us the vials are the wrath of God. No great trib here just wrath which the church IS NOT appointed to. Maybe y'all just feel guilty and think you need to face the wrath of God to be worthy or something. God shows us in Matt. 24:29-31 that Jesus is coming to take His church home immediately after the great trib. The only thing that stretches the great trib into the latter 3 1/2 yrs.


Trekson where in Rev.7 does it say that the scene you describe takes place in heaven?
 

revturmoil

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No, I don't have to fabricate anything, I just read the word as written. I don't lump things together just to fit my eschatology as others do. Here are some facts.
1. There is no verse that foretells a seven year "tribulation" period.
2. There is no verse that foretells a 3 1/2 year "great tribulation" period.
3. There is no verse that equates the "great trib" with the "wrath of God".
4. Those that believe in such things are the true "fabricators".

How about we do this. Please answer my questions on this reply.

Jesus say's that the gathering occurs after the tribulation. I understand this as the entire tribulation period. Where do you differ in belief than I do on that? I don't know how long it is. I just know it occurs at the end of tribulation!I

From what I see in scripture it's actually very simple. It occurs at the sound of a trumpet which I know from other verses about the gathering is the seventh and last trumpet and at the end of tribulation at the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

I'm already battle weary of dealing with people obsessed with the rapture. It's so complicated that it's a wonder you guys can't see red flags on this. It's actually quite simple. I just believe Jesus.
He said,
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just a few verses. One tribulation period and I don't know how long it is....One rapture after the tribulation that takes place at the seventh trumpet and last trumpet which takes place at Rev. 14. All the rapture verses speak of one event just before Armageddon. He removes us so that He doesn't kill any of His Own. It's as simple as that!

So tell me. You how you believe different than I do on this. Tell me what those differences are. Are you saying that there's a tribulation period and a great tribulation period? You are saying the rapture takes place in Rev. 6. I say it takes place in Rev. 14.

Just so we are the the same page.
 

tgwprophet

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Trekson, does this help you? During the first half of Tribulation, the bark of the Beast is NOT yet made manditory. This Beast's Mark is made manditory by the "Image of the Best" that is brought to life AFTER the abomination of Desolation which occurs mid-point of Tribulation. It is after the Beast's Mark is made manditory that Christians and Jews who do not accept this Mark are persecuted fornot accepting the Beast's Mark... To further this... It is After the Mark is made manditory that one cannot buy or sell unless they have this Mark. I hope this helps bring clarity to this issue. God Bless
 

revturmoil

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The mark of the beast isn't worldwide. So don't worry about it unless you live within his kingdom.

I said.

The resurrection of the dead may not be mentioned in Rev. 14. But it is mentioned within the seventh seal!

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I meant to say trumpet.