Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?

dragonfly · Oct 13, 2012

Hi Zebrahug,

Mind if I answer this?

Zh
Homosexuality is sin.

XP
Not anywhere in the bible is that true.

Hello again, XP,

Here are the verses you've overlooked in your Bible reading schedule.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

[For clarification of that statement, 'unrighteous' are people who commit sins.]

Be not deceived:
neither fornicators,
nor idolaters,
nor adulterers,
nor effeminate,
nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor ... shall inherit the kingdom of God.

For further clarification, in NT Greek, fornication includes every possible sexual perversion and behaviour. References to fornication or fornicator occur forty times in the KJV, OT and NT combined, thirty-five of them in the NT and always unacceptable.

Idolaters are people who worship something other than God. Worshippers of God do not commit homosexual acts.

Adulterers are those who break out of wedlock (marriage), or spiritually, give their heart to an idol rather than God.

'Effeminate' and 'abusers of themselves with mankind' are manifestations of homosexual drivenness.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants.

If the behaviours listed in vv 22 and 23 were not sins, the land would not be defiled, nor vomit out her inhabitants. Rev 3:14 - 22

Romans 1:18 - end

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Whererefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who, knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I realise one doesn't have to be struggling with homosexual desires to do or be some of the things listed in the last paragraph, but those characteristics are an accurate depiction of the thinking and coping traits observed in many homosexuals.

1 Corinthians 5

2 Corinthians 12:21 [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becomes saints;

Coloss 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1 Thess 4:3 For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication.

I, personally, don't believe there is such a thing as a homosexual, or 'homosexuality'. What it is really, is predatory unclean spirits tempting vulnerable people to sin, coming and going from them, and inhabiting some, corrupting even further their weaknesses and dysfunctionalities. God knows that even strong heterosexual males fall to these spirits, because many people have a normal sex drive which can be corrupted - unless God has given them a gift of celibacy. Matt 19:11, 12. The story of the king of Sodom appearing with Melchizedek and Abraham, to try to trade with material goods in return for souls, also paints an ugly picture which we do well to take seriously - because he plays for keeps. Genesis 14:21

Axehead · Oct 13, 2012

I think most homosexuals are brought into homosexuality from circumstances in their childhood. Some people are brought into homosexuality by circumstances later in life, such as prison, military services, bisexual experiences, etc. These will not have the deep roots of an early childhood problem. There is help and deliverance for the homosexual.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Receive them with the love of Christ and lead them into the truth. Take your stand firmly without rejecting them and deal with the roots. You can then minister deliverance.

What could be the roots? When dealing with an individual, remember that they are exactly that, an individual with unique life experiences. But generally speaking, there are some things to know that are helpful and can be guidelines in ministry.

First, God does not create homosexuals. In the beginning, God made man, male and female and they were to be one flesh. (Gen 1:27-29). Homosexuality is the result of rebellion against God. (Rom 1:24-27). Man exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the corruptible and lost his own glory. Instead of living in truth, man chose to live a lie and God gave him up to degrading passions. Other scriptures you can reference (Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, Deut 22:5, Deut 23:17-18, Rom 1:24-27, 1 Cor 6:9-10)

The ultimate of losing self-identity is to come to a confusion of the sex role. In this state, the flesh becomes god and the passions are twisted to a promiscuous life in which there is no love. Rebellion and insecurity drive the person until he it totalling absorbed in his sin. Homosexuality is definitely a spirit of perversion, (Men of Sodom - Gen 19, and Men of Benjamin - Judges 19).

Homosexuality has its own god - flesh and self-gratification. It is always a choice, and it is influenced by parents, relatives, circumstances, etc, etc. Here are some examples:

Jack -
Hatred and rejection toward father
Loss of personal identity
Mother ran the family
Life dominated by rejection

Gregory -
Knew his father loved him, but was afraid of his father
Brothers would not accept him, continually putting him down
Found acceptance in sexual experiences with an older boy
Sexually raped at age 14
Very lonely all of his life

Mary -
Life of rejection, adopted
Father rarely around, could never please him
Bitter against parents
Insecurity
Always disliked herself

Sue -
Rejected by parents
Suffered cruelty as a child
Self-hatred and total rejection
Hatred toward women, took the male image

The thing that these four individuals had in common are poor relationships with their father. And they all had problems of sexual identity at an early age. Rebellion is the element that turned them toward homosexuality and Rejection became the driving force to find acceptance in the same sex. Hatred and Occult play a part in many lives, too.

The homosexual really opposes himself and his fears are destructive. He/She fears normal relationships because they fear rejection and failure. They don't want to be rejected by someone from the opposite sex and they also fear failure if they had a relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

Their form of self-rejection is actually a form of hatred. Hatred for own sex and hatred toward self. The have no self-identity. You can understand Satan's destructiveness at work in these individuals. Their form of rejection is a bitterness that seeks its victims as many cannot stay in a relationship. Why? Fear of rejection becomes a way of life to them.

Homosexuality is both aggressive and reticent. If you are going to minister to them you must find the roots of rebellion and rejection. You will be counseling them to restore broken relationships in the home. Above all, be straightforward and biblical. The homosexual (as well as anyone else) must realize their sin. Do not give into their excuses (be firm) but at the same time be kind and gentle. Many have been abused emotionally for sure, and many others physically. Some examples of excuse are:

1. I cannot help the way I'm made
2. I have a right to fulfill my sex needs the same as others
3. I will change my sex by an operation and then society will accept me
4. I can serve God and be a homosexual--God accepts me as I am.

I don't believe you can serve God and be a homosexual.

The Spirit of God can and will give them a new image, a godly image of total acceptance of self in their sex role. He can deal with their rejection and their fear of rejection. He will show them how to deal with sin and renew their mind and they will change their lifestyle.

There are countless thousands that the Lord has healed and set free.

Axehead

Groundzero · Oct 14, 2012

Lol. No probs Dragonfly. But if you don't mind, I have to address a few points as well.

Xian Pugilist said:
XP verbatim "Unfair, I never said a whole species of animal was homosexual. That's an idiotic standard to demand."

Hate to break it to you, but where did I mention show me a 'whole species'? I would suggest reading posts more carefully before firing off replies. Helps avoid misquotes like that one.

Xian Pugilist said:
XP verbatim: "Not anywhere in the bible is that true. Prove your point so I can embarrass you in public I guess."

Hahahahahahahaha. Really, you make me laugh my head off. Go ahead, 'embarrass' me in public. If you could do it, I think you would have already done it. . . .

Xian Pugilist said:
XP verbatim: "Heck it's in the news all the time. Maybe I grew up in a small enough town and around enough livestock to notice but it's evident just from casual observation. There were penguins in the news recently, all over the news that were "gay"."

And what side is the majority of the media pushing? A Christian or a wordly side? To think that you will take what you read in the papers as Gospel truth is ridiculous.

Xian Pugilist said:
XP verbatim "Homosexuals are what, about 5-10% of the population? It's about the same ratio of animals in a zoo that are homosexual tendencied.... That's empirical observed fact."

Well, according to the Scriptural account in Genesis, pretty much 99% of the male population in Sodom, Gomorrah, etc, where homosexuals . . . . And as for all these 'established facts', how about you actually give me some references? And no, not some ridiculous 'hate' site that completely twists things, but an actual proper scientific site with established proven things, not just your word of mouth?

Xian Pugilist said:
XP verbatim: "If you were a child of GOd, you'd have given them equal marriage rights, not fight against them."

Sounds alot like Mr. Chamberlain before WW2 started. We'll just give the Nazis this and that, so they don't get upset. . . . Sounds like alot of trash to me.

Xian Pugilist said:
XP verbatim: "PEOPLE LIKE YOU deprived Blacks a spot in the Church, a place at the water fountain, a place in the government, a place on the football team. Do you go back and support your ancestors of philosophy in their arguments back then? THEY ARE THE SAME ARGUMENTS YOU MAKE NOW.
Same with women's rights.
Same with interracial marriages. That was another cause the Church championed to keep the govt from allowing. The whole faith was going to fall if it happened. Same arguments you make here now. Same ignorance. Same bigotry. Same making GOd a fascist. Same ignoring scripture.
The fact is, you are a bigot because you isolate the one sin, or the one sinner, or the one abomination and give it more concern than others. BY DEFINITION that is bigotry. I'm not slinging pejoratives. I'm quite sure you'd stop and give assistance and care for a GLBT person....

But your thinking is anti Christ, not pro Christ."
Really? One of my closest buddies is an African, and he's also a very strong spiritual support for me. What are you fighting for? A world of GREY? Some lukewarm for God to spue out when he returns?!
You've just labelled me all these things, but what the hell are you doing? Btw, I have no issue with most women's rights. No issue with blacks, no issue with loving a homosexual person. In fact, if you really want to know, one person I know, who is homosexual, and hurt me immensely, is in my thoughts almost every day. And if anything every happened to them, I would be there for them because I love who they are. NOT what they do.

To sum it up, I don't know much about you, XP, but if you're willing to say, "Homosexuality is not wrong. That Christians should just lie down and let Satan run rampant." Then I really have severe doubts as to whether you are even close to being a Believer.

The reason this world is in such a sad state, is BECAUSE Christianity went to sleep, instead of lifting Jesus higher!!!
I don't care what label I'm giving. Call me a bigot, racist, masochist or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, I stand on God's word, and my desire is to spread the Gospel of Jesus to a dying world. And if that means taking a stand and saying, "I will not bow down!" then so be it.

dragonfly · Oct 14, 2012

No probs Dragonfly. But if you don't mind, I have to address a few points as well.

And salient were your replies.

Xian Pugilist · Oct 14, 2012

martinlawrencescott said:
You can avoid sin two ways, and they are the same. You accept atonement for your sins in relation to Christ's atonement on the cross, and by "love covers a multitude of sin." I guess that is less avoidance, more atonement. So I'm saying the same thing when I say love covers a multitude of sins, and Christ's death on the cross was the same.

I'm saying, I believe there are stumbling blocks to our understanding of the heart of God (from birth) in that most people's theologies that must be worked through before they understand God's love. Our first understanding of God comes from our parents, if we're blessed to have them, and our parents are faulty at best at representing God's father heart. Now, If a non believer can come to Christ strictly by our works and our showing our love to them, fine, but if not, something else has got to give. I believe they would already have to have an understanding of their sinfulness, in order to realize it's God's love you are showing: Which you are showing, but it can be near incomprehensible to someone who has a screwed up vision of who God is.

If someone doesn't benefit from our demonstration of God's love to them, then it could/would only be glorifying us, which is bad (or no one at all, hopefully, if that's the case). If we do a bad job at showing God's love, then we're not accurately representing God's love either, which I think has to do with your concern with people yelling, "Hell and damnation! All ablazes! Dur hur hur (I usually agree)"; thereby preaching judgment without recourse. -That we as Christian's show God's love, despite the sinfulness of the person we are showing love to. Our presentation (the how of our ministry) definitely matters.

That's how Billy Graham did it. I don't usually tote other people's ministries here, but I would consider his a good example.

Oh and when the Bible says the word doesn't return void, that doesn't mean that what it returns is always good. It stirs up the crap inside us, so that we have to deal with it, which can be good, if we actually deal with it.

M

My point is, you can avoid sin, but not find GOd.

You can run away from God and avoid sin, but if you run TO GOD then you avoid sin AND find God.

dragonfly · Oct 14, 2012

Hi mls,

I'm sure I read your post to me higher up the page, but here is a further comment on it.

I don't believe we are held accountable to the sins made in ignorance,

This only applies until we know better. It doesn't continue after we've heard the truth with understanding.

I realise we can sit under preaching which we don't understand. God knows this. He also knows - and this is what matters in His eternal scheme - the millisecond we do 'understand'. From then on, we are accountable.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: 31 because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he has ordained; [whereof] he has given assurance unto all [men], in that he has raised him from the dead.

And therefore, we can be sure that we will be raised from the dead to face judgment. Heb 9:27

even though we still live with the nature we were once ignorant of.

I really believe this is a misunderstanding of the truth, if you're talking about after one has been born again.

When John Baptist said: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire, he was describing a tree whose original life-source had been changed, so that now it should bring forth good fruit.

Of course, the point you've made about having to keep choosing not to sin,

I was set free, but I still have to choose daily to overcome sin with the freedom I was given.

is very valid, but that's a much better place to be, than not at all being able to choose to not sin. It's the people who eat from the tree who know what the fruit is like. Nevertheless, the tree (person) has to choose to draw its life-source from the true Vine, if good fruit is to be borne.

I can have both flesh and spirit, and I mean I can be in one or the other.

We all have flesh and spirit the whole time. The issue is one of obedience to the life of God. Both Peter and Paul teach that the wrong lusts of the flesh can be put to death with the help of the Spirit, so that the flesh serves the life of the Spirit at all times. That's what 'walking in the Spirit' is. It's not having no flesh, it's having flesh which is compliant with God's will. The whole 'I die daily' (or taking up one's cross daily) discussion is about making good in the life of the flesh, what was wrong in the life of the flesh before one was baptised into Christ's death.

The following is a spiritual statement, on which the new life in the tree and its fruit, depends.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

It is preceded by another important statement:

Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

So, although the main victory has been won, there is some clearing up to do. There's a verse (v 8) in Joshua 12 which expresses the idea of unconquered territory, beautifully. 7 And these [are] the kings of the country which Joshua and the children of Israel smote on this side Jordan on the west, from Baalgad in the valley of Lebanon even to the mount Halak, that goeth up to Seir; which Joshua gave to the tribes of Israel [for] a possession according to their divisions; 8 In the mountains, and in the valleys, and in the plains, and in the springs, and in the wilderness, and in the south country; the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: Exo 34:10, 11.

Feel free to disagree with me, but that's what I feel scripture has lead me to believe, using pretty much the same verses you posted.

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the spirit"

Meaning there's a difference between the two. We can be alive in spirit "saved", and walk outside the spirit- "fellowship" with God.

But if we have received a new heart and a new spirit with the Holy Spirit, and His laws written in our new heart, there are unprecedented opportunities to overcome the wrong lusts of the flesh, with the help the Spirit, if we will keep pushing through the barriers which our old habits of thought and behaviour seem to present to us with relentless predictability.

It's only as we 'do' the right thing, having been empowered by the Spirit of Grace - the Spirit of enabling - that our minds are really renewed.

This is the import of Romans 12:1 and 2... that unless we present our bodies to do the right thing, we won't prove (test-drive) what is right.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin; 2 that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Peter is saying we are still in the flesh, but, we are living to the will of God. Amen

Paul puts the same truths differently - more from the angle Peter is alluding to in v 1 above.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after [or, given to] the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Hi XP,

I know you've said this several times now...

My point is, you can avoid sin, but not find GOd.

You can run away from God and avoid sin, but if you run TO GOD then you avoid sin AND find God.

On the first point, you cannot avoid sin in reality without knowing Jesus Christ. All you can do is conceal some of the outward displays of sinfulness in the sight of those who see you, but the heart - whence all defilement springs, is just the same.

Also, even running to God and finding Him, there are many who don't understand (and I'm sure you're not one of them) that they are supposed to display a changed relationship with sin as evidence of their new relationship with God.

Finding a religious experience or community or theoretical perspective is not the same as knowing God personally.

Of course, there are people who connect with God personally, who go on to mistake the outward trappings (praxis and beliefs) of those amongst whom He was found and met, as a necessary part of knowing Him, or, who assume that the outward trappings enhance knowing Him; but that would be a common assumption which has little basis in reality. Knowing Him is the sole basis for ceasing from sin.

Xian Pugilist · Oct 14, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Zebrahug,

Mind if I answer this?

Hello again, XP,

Here are the verses you've overlooked in your Bible reading schedule.

I haven't overlooked anyting. GO back and answer the arguments you don't address here before you make new ones. Stop lecturing and start talking. Stop posturing as GOD'S arbiter on earth and join the discussion as an equal. Table your presumptive posturing, and engage in "come let us reason". For US to reason, you must address the other arguments as well as just make new ones. You have to take the two sides to reconcile them together. You can't leave them floating.

dragonfly said:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

How does this change anything I have said. It doesn't. It's a total POSTURE comment that doesn't refute nor contribute any new point. It's a waste of space in so far as it doesn't move the conversation either way.

dragonfly said:
[For clarification of that statement, 'unrighteous' are people who commit sins.]

Be not deceived:
neither fornicators,
nor idolaters,
nor adulterers,
nor effeminate,
nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor ... shall inherit the kingdom of God.

NOTE it doesn't say you are to go and pass legislation against them. ANd campaign for their punishment on earth. Or deprivation on earth of their rights. AND HOW DOES THIS CHANGE THAT YOU ARE TO LOVE THEM< EVEN THE ENEMIES AND PROVIDE FOR THEM AS JESUS COMMANDED? It doesn't. Why do you not focus on and see a FORNICATOR thread in here? Because no one cares, they just wanna bash the glbt community. Westboro baptist church would love you. See their website at www.Godhatesfags.com That's the BIBLE at work for all of you gay haters.

NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT that it's the SEXUAL ACT that is the sin, NOT being homosexual. A virgin can be homosexual. He wouldn't be violating the Bible as such.

dragonfly said:
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants.

See the emphasis. Thank you for proving my point. That's unlike you.

dragonfly said:
If the behaviours listed in vv 22 and 23 were not sins, the land would not be defiled, nor vomit out her inhabitants. Rev 3:14 - 22

I never said they weren't. I said being homosexual isn't a sin.

dragonfly said:
your romans 1 commentary.

Let's start an exegetics forum and make that the first one. You read into it what you can use as a bashing tool, and avoid anything else.

dragonfly said:
I realise one doesn't have to be struggling with homosexual desires to do or be some of the things listed in the last paragraph, but those characteristics are an accurate depiction of the thinking and coping traits observed in many homosexuals.

So is bigotry. So is not loving for neighbor.

dragonfly said:
1 Corinthians 5

2 Corinthians 12:21 [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

The fact you don't see any threads on adulterers or forniacators on here, should tell you the level of bigotry that has slid into the Church's theology. You saw it earlier in history with Black and Women's rights. You will be looked back upon as a wrong headed person for your arguments here today, as the Church was back then during those issues. They are using the same arguments you are. It's undeniable history.

dragonfly said:
I, personally, don't believe there is such a thing as a homosexual, or 'homosexuality'. What it is really, is predatory unclean spirits tempting vulnerable people to sin, coming and going from them, and inhabiting some, corrupting even further their weaknesses and dysfunctionalities.

Ok so you blame it on the boogeyman. Last I read, they couldn't do anything against you without God's permission. See LOT, and Legion, and other examples.... So by your reasoning, GOD makes homosexuals. Awesome GOD you promote. NO wonder so many leave the church or avoid it.

dragonfly said:
God knows that even strong heterosexual males fall to these spirits, because many people have a normal sex drive which can be corrupted - unless God has given them a gift of celibacy. Matt 19:11, 12. The story of the king of Sodom appearing with Melchizedek and Abraham, to try to trade with material goods in return for souls, also paints an ugly picture which we do well to take seriously - because he plays for keeps. Genesis 14:21

Yeah, the FEMALES are innocent of all of these sins... right. You don't know what you are talking about.

You ignored the arguments presented.

You just spit more party line.

I am sorry for how it comes across. But you didn't converse here, you lectured. You lectured from a soap box. If I find the person that sold you the soap box, I'm gonna get in trouble. I've repeated arguments that have already been presented. If you were conversing WITH, we wouldn't have to be repeating things, the conversation would progress.

Dragonfly if you'll ignore me I'll ignore you when I ignore strat.

ZebraHug said:
Hate to break it to you, but where did I mention show me a 'whole species'? I would suggest reading posts more carefully before firing off replies. Helps avoid misquotes like that one.

If you deny it could be read that way, you are not honest. I answered that, AND the other possible request both. Sue me for being thorough.

ZebraHug said:
Hahahahahahahaha. Really, you make me laugh my head off. Go ahead, 'embarrass' me in public. If you could do it, I think you would have already done it. . . .

I could only embarass you if you engaged. But on a side note, as un appealing as the white hood look is for KKK members I can't embarrass them for wearing it if they don't care what it represents. The point was you have no claim anywhere to the Bible to prove your point. Rather than provide some........ when you provide some, let the embarrassment commence, if you care enough that it's possible...

ZebraHug said:
And what side is the majority of the media pushing? A Christian or a wordly side? To think that you will take what you read in the papers as Gospel truth is ridiculous.

So you choose to be unreasonable. Are you going to make me drive you to witness the events? Better pack a lunch, last I heard they don't perform on command but when the mood strikes them, and you are enough to kill anyone's mood. Let me ask you something, if you won't allow ANYTHING the mediat publishes to be used to back up a claim, then you must believe man on the moon was done in hollywood and be a member of the flat earth society. You just went off the deep end on hard headedness and proved there is no reasoning with you, only proving your points. Why are we discussing? If you accept nothing proof but what you witness then you are a legend in your own mind and no one can compete with that... not enough room to compete in that mind.... space is limited.

ZebraHug said:
Well, according to the Scriptural account in Genesis, pretty much 99% of the male population in Sodom, Gomorrah, etc, where homosexuals . . . . And as for all these 'established facts', how about you actually give me some references? And no, not some ridiculous 'hate' site that completely twists things, but an actual proper scientific site with established proven things, not just your word of mouth?

That's not biblically accurate. That was only a symptom of the behavior not the cause of the issue of it's destruction. Why bother to get the truth if it gets in the way of a good ole fashion white hooded hate fest.

You have a proper scientific site that says what, that Sodom was gay? They can prove sexual inclination from archaeological digs? Or that Animals aren't homosexual too? Really? Rather than admit that the definition of natural was foiled for you and carry on with the rest of the conversation, you are going to extremes. I'm speculating, what scientific sites are you using for what?

ZebraHug said:
Sounds alot like Mr. Chamberlain before WW2 started. We'll just give the Nazis this and that, so they don't get upset. . . . Sounds like alot of trash to me.

Well, it's exactly what Christ commanded in Matt 5:48. IF you'd like to leave the bashing and join in exegetics I'll show you WHY CHrist would have seen to it gay's had marriage rights.

OR that is stretching it, but why he would have slapped and thrashed and flogged those who are trying to legislate against it. Wanna start that thread? Or would it get in the way of justifiable hate slinging?

ZebraHug said:
But your thinking is anti Christ, not pro Christ."
Really? One of my closest buddies is an African, and he's also a very strong spiritual support for me. What are you fighting for? A world of GREY? Some lukewarm for God to spue out when he returns?!

What does african friends have to do with what I said? What the heck are you discussing? I fight for the Scriptural example to be upheld. I'm willing to spend time with someone I know wouldn't care to change their mind if the truth hit them in the face to get to the truth of what scripture says. I choose to examine ALL of the book, not the parts that benefit me. What do you want to do, take everyone you don't like and hide them? Only allow laws that you approve of for YOUR protection but not everyone's? Sounds a lot like those that Christ was beating the hell out of and their theology to me.

ZebraHug said:
You've just labelled me all these things, but what the hell are you doing? Btw, I have no issue with most women's rights. No issue with blacks, no issue with loving a homosexual person.

I am trying to hold the conversation on the arguments, scripture, exegetics, and context. Care to join me? Women's rights, blacks, were the same arguments to deny their rights. Do you approve of them having their rights or do you want to see America ran in an 1840 American history view?
If you LOVE homosexual persons, then as Christ commanded you would provide for them. You deny them, if I'm not mistaken on the Gay marriage thing? Care to engage that in a one on one closed forum conversation? Scripture, by definition, says LOVE would not behave as it is here now. You have no legs to stand on in that discussion. I KNOW you don't believe that. But I also know you have generations of stupid teaching behind it and you are susceptible to it's influence. THUS I"m willing to have the discussion if you will engage.

ZebraHug said:
In fact, if you really want to know, one person I know, who is homosexual, and hurt me immensely, is in my thoughts almost every day. And if anything every happened to them, I would be there for them because I love who they are. NOT what they do.

As Christ said, anyone can look to their neighbor and say things, it's the one that does things that matters. Or was that Paul, I think it was Christ.... Faith without deeds is dead. What have you done for that person? What have you done to reconcile the issue? How much have you faced from him to try to reach through? How many times has he got angry at you and been mean to you as you tried to reach through? The word AGAPE requires the action or it's just so much hot air. Biblically, you may phileo him, but you don't agapao him. If you did this would be a done topic between you.

ZebraHug said:
To sum it up, I don't know much about you, XP, but if you're willing to say, "Homosexuality is not wrong. That Christians should just lie down and let Satan run rampant." Then I really have severe doubts as to whether you are even close to being a Believer.

I don't know much about you, but I know you didn't read and consider what I said or you wouldn't have said such an off point comment as that. I know you are kneejerking on the gay bashing side and can't "HEAR" anything without jumping to the charge.

I have made the point it's not homosexuality that is the sin, it's homosexual sex. THERE IS a difference. You refuse to engage what was said, but go off on this emotional strawman roller coaster.

ZebraHug said:
The reason this world is in such a sad state, is BECAUSE Christianity went to sleep, instead of lifting Jesus higher!!!

AMEN LETS take votiing rights from women, kill more american indians, burn more witches, take rights away from blacks, throw them back into slavery and be GOOD XIANS! AMEN!!!!!!!!!! The comments you make, were made during the times of those behaviors I just listed.

Christ never tried to force the faith on others. He'd have sent you to hell if he knew you were tyring to legislate faith on those outside the church. There is nothing biblical to justify your behavior. I"ve made the arguments for this.

The arguments have been ignored, and I'm being attacked for making the arguments. I don't really care, but it's hilarious of the hypocrisy of those doing the yelping.

ZebraHug said:
I don't care what label I'm giving. Call me a bigot, racist, masochist or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, I stand on God's word,

No you don't. HOWEVER, I don't question you want to. But I might if you continue to ignore it and ONLY use it to justify your behavior. IF YOU stood on it, it would have a different position here. There is a point of personal disagreement and interpretation between us, but there is also a point of you are just wrong scripturally and I'm trying to discuss that while wading through the personal stuff.

I hate to tell you guys.... PERSONAL ATTACKS is not something you cry when some one shows you did some ill behavior. By definition that means you did the personal attacking first if they show you that behavior with a name you don't like...

ZebraHug said:
and my desire is to spread the Gospel of Jesus to a dying world. And if that means taking a stand and saying, "I will not bow down!" then so be it.

Gospel of Jesus. GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL AND SHOULD NOT BE MARRIED AND PROTECTED UNDER THE LAW.

Bet that church you go to has a big congregation.

Axehead · Oct 14, 2012

Defending the principle that every human life regardless of sexual orientation is of eternal value and worth to God should be foundational to Christians. I don't think Christians should support legislation that deprives others of life and dignity which is based on sexual orientation within the confines of a consensual adult relationship. We should also not single out people based on sexual orientation for special treatment and as a Christian community we should stand against violence towards any community, not just the LBGT community.

Jesus Christ died for those who struggle with same-sex attraction and the Christian community should oppose bullying and acts of aggression of any type against individuals or groups. We should affirm behavior that validates the personal worth and dignity God bestows upon every human being. Just as every individual deserves equal protection under the law, every offender should receive equal punishment. As a society we should show impartiality in our policies without singling out groups or individuals for special treatment or special punishment.

If a society starts to singles out groups or individuals for special punishment you will then move towards living in a Fascist nation and then no one is safe.

Axehead

dragonfly · Oct 14, 2012

Hi again XP,

I'm replying to your post as I read it. Just for the record, I will be the one to decide what I post, not you or anyone else.

I haven't overlooked anyting.

Does this statment mean you are in personal disagreement with forty statements in the Bible (for starters)?

GO back and answer the arguments you don't address here before you make new ones.

That's not how it works. And it's certainly not how you work. You will drag whatever you like into a sentence, regardless of whether it has any relevance to the topic or not.

No-one is under any obligation to address any argument or question they choose to ignore. It may be frustrating for people who don't like to get what they hoped for from a post, but you can't do anything about it.

Stop lecturing and start talking.

And you're not lecturing me now?

Stop posturing as GOD'S arbiter on earth and join the discussion as an equal.

I feel perfectly equal, thank you. Don't you?

As for being God's arbiter, that's in your head, not mine. Or, is 'God's arbiter' a phrase that means something other than what it says?

Table your presumptive posturing, and engage in "come let us reason".

What does 'Table your presumptive posturing' mean, please? Does it mean 'lay it aside', or, 'explain it'?

For US to reason, you must address the other arguments as well as just make new ones.

Believe me, I have plenty of reasoning available, but not if the object of your engagement is to beat up the other participants. And another thing....

You have to take the two sides to reconcile them together.

Actually, you don't. If two sides are irreconcilable, that has to be recognised, the irreconcilable features identified, and the truth of the irreconciliabilities acknowledged.... which may mean there isn't an argument any more. God was right.

You can't leave them floating.

Why not?

Groundzero · Oct 14, 2012

Xian Pugilist said:
[/font][/color]

If you deny it could be read that way, you are not honest. I answered that, AND the other possible request both. Sue me for being thorough.

[/font][/color]

I could only embarass you if you engaged. But on a side note, as un appealing as the white hood look is for KKK members I can't embarrass them for wearing it if they don't care what it represents. The point was you have no claim anywhere to the Bible to prove your point. Rather than provide some........ when you provide some, let the embarrassment commence, if you care enough that it's possible...

So you choose to be unreasonable. Are you going to make me drive you to witness the events? Better pack a lunch, last I heard they don't perform on command but when the mood strikes them, and you are enough to kill anyone's mood. Let me ask you something, if you won't allow ANYTHING the mediat publishes to be used to back up a claim, then you must believe man on the moon was done in hollywood and be a member of the flat earth society. You just went off the deep end on hard headedness and proved there is no reasoning with you, only proving your points. Why are we discussing? If you accept nothing proof but what you witness then you are a legend in your own mind and no one can compete with that... not enough room to compete in that mind.... space is limited.

[/font][/color]

That's not biblically accurate. That was only a symptom of the behavior not the cause of the issue of it's destruction. Why bother to get the truth if it gets in the way of a good ole fashion white hooded hate fest.

You have a proper scientific site that says what, that Sodom was gay? They can prove sexual inclination from archaeological digs? Or that Animals aren't homosexual too? Really? Rather than admit that the definition of natural was foiled for you and carry on with the rest of the conversation, you are going to extremes. I'm speculating, what scientific sites are you using for what?

[/font][/color]

Well, it's exactly what Christ commanded in Matt 5:48. IF you'd like to leave the bashing and join in exegetics I'll show you WHY CHrist would have seen to it gay's had marriage rights. OR that is stretching it, but why he would have slapped and thrashed and flogged those who are trying to legislate against it. Wanna start that thread? Or would it get in the way of justifiable hate slinging?

What does african friends have to do with what I said? What the heck are you discussing? I fight for the Scriptural example to be upheld. I'm willing to spend time with someone I know wouldn't care to change their mind if the truth hit them in the face to get to the truth of what scripture says. I choose to examine ALL of the book, not the parts that benefit me. What do you want to do, take everyone you don't like and hide them? Only allow laws that you approve of for YOUR protection but not everyone's? Sounds a lot like those that Christ was beating the hell out of and their theology to me. [/font][/color]

[/font][/color]

I am trying to hold the conversation on the arguments, scripture, exegetics, and context. Care to join me? Women's rights, blacks, were the same arguments to deny their rights. Do you approve of them having their rights or do you want to see America ran in an 1840 American history view?
If you LOVE homosexual persons, then as Christ commanded you would provide for them. You deny them, if I'm not mistaken on the Gay marriage thing? Care to engage that in a one on one closed forum conversation? Scripture, by definition, says LOVE would not behave as it is here now. You have no legs to stand on in that discussion. I KNOW you don't believe that. But I also know you have generations of stupid teaching behind it and you are susceptible to it's influence. THUS I"m willing to have the discussion if you will engage.

[/font][/color]
As Christ said, anyone can look to their neighbor and say things, it's the one that does things that matters. Or was that Paul, I think it was Christ.... Faith without deeds is dead. What have you done for that person? What have you done to reconcile the issue? How much have you faced from him to try to reach through? How many times has he got angry at you and been mean to you as you tried to reach through? The word AGAPE requires the action or it's just so much hot air. Biblically, you may phileo him, but you don't agapao him. If you did this would be a done topic between you.

I don't know much about you, but I know you didn't read and consider what I said or you wouldn't have said such an off point comment as that. I know you are kneejerking on the gay bashing side and can't "HEAR" anything without jumping to the charge.

I have made the point it's not homosexuality that is the sin, it's homosexual sex. THERE IS a difference. You refuse to engage what was said, but go off on this emotional strawman roller coaster.

AMEN LETS take votiing rights from women, kill more american indians, burn more witches, take rights away from blacks, throw them back into slavery and be GOOD XIANS! AMEN!!!!!!!!!! The comments you make, were made during the times of those behaviors I just listed.

Christ never tried to force the faith on others. He'd have sent you to hell if he knew you were tyring to legislate faith on those outside the church. There is nothing biblical to justify your behavior. I"ve made the arguments for this.

The arguments have been ignored, and I'm being attacked for making the arguments. I don't really care, but it's hilarious of the hypocrisy of those doing the yelping.

No you don't. HOWEVER, I don't question you want to. But I might if you continue to ignore it and ONLY use it to justify your behavior. IF YOU stood on it, it would have a different position here. There is a point of personal disagreement and interpretation between us, but there is also a point of you are just wrong scripturally and I'm trying to discuss that while wading through the personal stuff.

I hate to tell you guys.... PERSONAL ATTACKS is not something you cry when some one shows you did some ill behavior. By definition that means you did the personal attacking first if they show you that behavior with a name you don't like...

Gospel of Jesus. GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL AND SHOULD NOT BE MARRIED AND PROTECTED UNDER THE LAW.

Bet that church you go to has a big congregation.

Pathetic.
My African friend? Well you quite quickly assimilated being racist with taking a stand against homosexuality. That's what I'm referring to. As far as I'm concerned, you're a load of hogwash.
If what you say is true, then you would be posting references to back your ludicrous statements up, not going ad homin. And you would be staying on topic, instead of launching out into the distant blue beyond.
In case you're selectively blind (which I would think is about 99% possibility), the topic is, "Homosexuality: is it the way we are born?" If you want to start a thread on whether a Christian should take a stand against homosexuality, by all means, go ahead. But otherwise, please, stay on track.
And if you want to start a thread about women's rights, racism, or any of that other unrelated stuff which you accuse me of, then go ahead, but KEEP IT OUT OF THIS THREAD.

dragonfly · Oct 14, 2012

More from dragonfly to XP,

How does this change anything I have said. It doesn't. It's a total POSTURE comment that doesn't refute nor contribute any new point. It's a waste of space in so far as it doesn't move the conversation either way.

Well, you have been saying that 'homosexuality' is not a sin, and my point - if you include the last paragrah of post # 41 - is that your 'posture' is incompatible with scripture. I've made other comments about 'homosexulaity' in the older thread by that title, and if you stop stamping your feet I might go to the trouble of repeating some of those comments in this thread too, but while you don't seem interested in anybody's point of view but your own, (unless they seem to be agreeing with you, of course), I am happy just to state God's case and leave it as a lamp to the feet of those who are interested in aligning their thinking with His.

As for 'a waste of space', you may not realise that the whole world can tune into this page if they so desire, and my general agenda here is to have laid out God's point of view where it disagrees with another poster's, as well as, sometimes, where another poster agrees with God; because that's all edifying to souls who are hungry for truth and the word of life.

As for 'a total POSTURE comment that doesn't refute nor contribute any new point', presumably you missed the 'new point' that you have been writing in profound disagreement with God's Book, and you seem to think that's more acceptable than God's own word on a matter? Why would you think that about the opinion of a mere human, compared with his Maker's?

NOTE it doesn't say you are to go and pass legislation against them. ANd campaign for their punishment on earth. Or deprivation on earth of their rights. AND HOW DOES THIS CHANGE THAT YOU ARE TO LOVE THEM< EVEN THE ENEMIES AND PROVIDE FOR THEM AS JESUS COMMANDED? It doesn't. Why do you not focus on and see a FORNICATOR thread in here? Because no one cares, they just wanna bash the glbt community. Westboro baptist church would love you. See their website at www.Godhatesfags.com That's the BIBLE at work for all of you gay haters.

Ah! If this is what's on your mind, you're in the wrong thread. This is a thread about whether a person is 'born a homosexual'. The thread which is called 'Homosexuality' is about the things you've posted here. Now I will comment on what you said. First of all, I am not a 'gay hater', and nothing I have posted gives you leave to assume that.

NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT that it's the SEXUAL ACT that is the sin, NOT being homosexual. A virgin can be homosexual.

The problem with this statement is many-fold.

Of course the sexual acts are sins, but since Jesus said a man is committing adultery if he only looks at a woman (most likely married) to lust after her, we are dealing with parameters unknown in the OT. Matt 5:28

A virgin who is thinking about sex with someone of the same physical anatomy as themselves, is still in sin. Mark 7:21 and Matt 15:19, both mention both adultery and fornication. It's an issue of the sinful heart, from which we all suffered, which Paul illuminates in Eph 2:1 - 3. (The promise of a new heart is fundamental to the New Covenant's efficacy.)

He (or she) needs a heart, circumcised by Christ, to be freed from it. You know that! Col 2:11, 12. Baptised into death with Christ - Rom 6:5, 7 - and fixing their eyes on the Author and Finisher of faith, to make good in them the sexual re-orientation that their new, clean heart now desires, having come to understand they can be re-created in His likeness, and sexually whole, rather than broken. I have heard and read about wide variations in the way this change feels to those experiencing it. This is a thumbnail of God's solution to their isolation and confusion.

He wouldn't be violating the Bible as such.

I hope you can now see how he would be violating the Bible?

See the emphasis. Thank you for proving my point. That's unlike you.

Not sure which emphasis or point you meant. You didn't seem to have understood my post very well so far.

You read into it what you can use as a bashing tool, and avoid anything else.

C'mon! Of course there is more that could be drawn out of the second half of Romans 1! It doesn't matter which aspect of truth is held in unrighteousness, it always opens a person up to idolatry. Paul lists the effects and features. It stands as a warning to all who imagine they can ignore any sliver of God's word and remain unscathed.

So is bigotry. So is not loving for neighbor.

I think Paul covered those in his list.

Ok so you blame it on the boogeyman.

Yes, I mean principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. The spirits which afflict those who carry out homosexual behaviours are strong. When a child is born, the most obvious thing if it's normal, is that it's a boy or a girl. God has made sexuality so much a part of being human, that its influences are there from conception. Not only is the male bone structure generally different from the female bone structure, but the size of head, hands and feet, the way the voice is going to sound, the skills, interests and behaviours are going to be different from an early age. A spirit which can predate in such a way as to undermine the fundamental heart/spirit of human identity, is powerful. That is why it is easy for a person to believe what they are feeling, and to imagine they cannot change. The spirit seats itself in their depths, subverting the natural instincts, and offering a complete mindset contrary to the image of God - whether male or female - by which He has expressed Himself in man.

If you look carefully at Hebrews 12:1, 'the sin which does so easily beset us' is not inside us, even though we may take ownership of it everso easily, and behave as if it is. This is precisely how many temptations work, including the effect by which Paul explains homosexual temptation in Romans 1:26. The root of the word is pascho.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's

G3958 πάσχω pascho (pas'-kho) (including the forms patho path'-o, and pentho pen'-tho, used only in certain tenses for it) v.
1. to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful)
[apparently a primary verb]
KJV: feel, passion, suffer, vex

The actual word in the sentence for 'affections' in 'vile affections' (KJV), is pathos.

G3806 πάθος pathos (path'-os) n.
1. (properly) suffering ("pathos")
2. (subjectively) a passion (especially sexual lust)
[from the alternate of G3958]
KJV: (inordinate) affection, lust

My reading of those two Greek words, is that the person is responding to an outside stimulus. That is the basis of my disagreement with the claim that a person is 'born homosexual'.

The other strong strand of my disagreement is based on the natural freedom given to all who are ever born, to acknowledge God, who has made His divine attributes and Godhead known to man through creation. John 1:9.

Last I read, they couldn't do anything against you without God's permission. See LOT, and Legion, and other examples....

That promise is to those who have received the Holy Spirit, which neither Lot nor Legion could have. 1 John 5:18

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So by your reasoning, GOD makes homosexuals.

No. That's by your reasoning that you think that's what I've said. I have never said that.

But, in that God does not interfere in the affairs of men to the extent of preventing them from discovering their need of a new heart the hard way, He does permit men and women to yield to those temptations, because He knows they also have the power to resist. And if their power to resist is broken, because they had their will broken at an early age, or their personal integrity was breached, or their spirit deeply wounded (perhaps repeatedly), or many other combinations of possibilities, so that they cannot or do not resist, there is nevertheless hope for them to find deliverance and healing, through faith in Jesus Christ, the great Physician, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Awesome GOD you promote.

You're right, He is AWESOME! (Yes, I'm shouting it!) He is more than able to rescue a soul who is sinking in sin.

Remember this verse? Mark 5:6 But when he [Legion] saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him.

What that shows is, that Legion was capable of making a choice to recognise and appropriately acknowledge Jesus. His example means there's no-one who cannot do the same, no matter how distorted they have become.

NO wonder so many leave the church or avoid it.

Churches are notorious for messing up when it comes to emotional and sexual needs. There is a heap of ignorance, an astonishing lack of patience, and legalism abounds in many church communities, which is no help at all. We are supposed to be like Jesus. But He didn't condone sin, or dilute the message. His gospel began with the word 'Repent', and ours has got to contain the same call away from sin, back into... not only spiritual fellowship with God, but the wholeness
God wants for each of us.

Yeah, the FEMALES are innocent of all of these sins... right. You don't know what you are talking about.

When you made that comment, you could have no idea whether I know what I'm talking about or not, and for all I know, you still don't. But you are entitled to your own opinion, of course.

You ignored the arguments presented.

Like you, I am going to address only the points which interest me. That's fair, isn't it?

You just spit more party line.

I think what you mean is, you think you know what I think, whereas you actually know more now than you did when you wrote that, and, you should not assume I hold any of the party lines with which you're familiar.

I am sorry for how it comes across. But you didn't converse here, you lectured. You lectured from a soap box. If I find the person that sold you the soap box, I'm gonna get in trouble. I've repeated arguments that have already been presented. If you were conversing WITH, we wouldn't have to be repeating things, the conversation would progress.

Well, I'm not going to promise 100% progress, but perhaps there is a faint glimmer of hope that you feel 'converse'd with through this post. I'm fairly confident you'll let me know, but feel free to ignore me if you prefer.

You'll have a hard job parting me from my soap box, though. Some topics, it's really useful.

Axehead · Oct 15, 2012

Great post, dragonfly! I enjoyed reading it very much.

We cannot underestimate the spiritual forces that have aligned themselves against God and men.

Axehead

Xian Pugilist · Oct 15, 2012

>>>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>> Just for the record, I will be the one to decide what I post, not you or anyone else. <<<<<<<<<

yes you have made that quite clear. You will take ONE line out of a post, out of context and ignore all the other reasoning, and try to warp that into a tangential strawman and claim victory when you are done. That isn't talking with someone, it's arrogantly presuming you have the WAY to teach and talking to someone. You have made it very clear you are above talking WITH someone and actually caring what they say. I couldn't buy tickets for a show as entertaining as you put on with your posturing. AND YET, I still take the time to address you. Which is more than you do for me. You address ONLY selected parts, and avoid the points that are most relevant for your convenience it appears. As long as you do that, PLEASE stop posturing as the holy one here. That's the same method the viper used with Eve.

dragonfly said:
No-one is under any obligation to address any argument or question they choose to ignore. It may be frustrating for people who don't like to get what they hoped for from a post, but you can't do anything about it.

You are right. But people that repeatedly refuse to address the reasoning and just tell people they are wrong, come across as uppity, snotty, presumptuous people not worth wasting time on. This will be my last try with you.... what will it be.

Your idea that you can take a fifteen point analysis, look at it, disagree, tell the person they are wrong for reasons that don't address anything in the fifteen reasons they presented, just shows a narcissistic personality demanding attention and to be treated as an authority. Now, for the sake of conversation, after you give your reasons, and ignored mine, and I go address your reasoning, most of it was preempted in the fifteen reasons you ignored. Then you dodge or evade them again, and try to non sequitur, strawman, spaceship, crawdad yourself away from there. I bet in all the time you have posted on this board, you have not admitted to error once.

dragonfly said:
And you're not lecturing me now?

I'm preaching now.

But I'm not avoiding your arguments. I'm hitting them one at a time. I respect you enough to do that, even though you hae shown nothing to earn that respect. Since I"m not avoiding your arguments, I am engaging with you. That is the CON in Conversation.... When you ignore the arguments you are just VERSATIONing no CON.
CON, a prefix 1575–85; short for Latin contrā in opposition, against

dragonfly said:
I feel perfectly equal, thank you. Don't you?

Response doesn't even make sense. IF you were equal to those you discuss with, you would heed their arguments and address them, not pose as that is beneath you, and just spew out opposing views that ignore all they said.

dragonfly said:
As for being God's arbiter, that's in your head, not mine.

It's in my head because it's in your positioning and your behavior. I can't control your behavior, I can only observe. I use English to describe what I observe. Those were the words that hit closest to the image you present.

dragonfly said:
Or, is 'God's arbiter' a phrase that means something other than what it says?

It's a phrase I use when someone ignores 850 verses to claim none of them mean what they say because THIS OTHER VERSE says something I think is difference. It's when a person starts interpreting for God Himself. It's one step below God's editor which are those that remove verses and words they don't like to make their points. You gotta couple of those around here too.

dragonfly said:
What does 'Table your presumptive posturing' mean, please? Does it mean 'lay it aside', or, 'explain it'?

I can't remember a post you have made, that addressed the points of your opponent in the discussion. In every instance, you just stand there chin out, chest out, and say, NO, this is how it is. Without engaging their reasoning, you do NOTHING to forward a conversation. You are just spitting opinions out. We all spit opinions, but the idea is to take opposing opinions (the CON in Conversation) and work through them with reason to a new conclusion. Your approach is, "They are idiots they are wrong I will correct them and show them how it is." Which that thought alone isn't necessarily bad. But when that's ALL you have it's bad.

dragonfly said:
Believe me, I have plenty of reasoning available,

Oh, I believe you. YOu horde it ALL and never share it. I'm anxiously awaiting the first time I can experience your reasoning and not your lecturing. Heck, you may have something revelatory when it happens.

dragonfly said:
but not if the object of your engagement is to beat up the other participants. And another thing....

And the irony here is, you support a man who lied against me. A blatant lie at that. You refuse to berate him, correct him, advise him, but you will jump me for making the point he's lied and ask for an apology.

Yeah, that is "beating them up" isn't it. It's a defensive position, sister. If the OFFENSE wasn't given, I wouldn't have to be defensive. Episkopos and MLS and I don't agree on tons of very relevant things, but we can work through it to a conclusion we can all take something from. With you and Strat all we get are, NU UHS! and whining and crying when we don't accept that.

>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>Actually, you don't. If two sides are irreconcilable, that has to be recognised, the irreconcilable features identified, <<<<<<<<<<

But, you don't know that if you never engage. YOU do not engage. You lecture. We don't know if we disagree or not, all we get from you is, NU UH!

YOU>>>>>>>>>>>>
and the truth of the irreconciliabilities acknowledged.... which may mean there isn't an argument any more. God was right.
Why not?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Because if you don't address the other side, you don't know which is stronger. You have water and you have fire. Until you put them together you don't know which part/s hold up to scrutiny.

Dragoon, in response to the second long post.... there is no need to reply until you understand what I said. You are off on a tyrade killing a strawman.

Homosexuality isn't a sin in the Bible.

Homosexual sex is.

Show me I am wrong, and everything comes in line.

Continue to pretend this isn't my position is just dishonest.

If you want to add to what the BIBLE SAYS to justify your bigotry, then we will have to disagree on that one. I'm ok with that, it would be honest at least.

Show me anywhere that it's not homosexual sex that is the sin.

Groundzero · Oct 15, 2012

Xian Pugilist said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>> Just for the record, I will be the one to decide what I post, not you or anyone else. <<<<<<<<<

yes you have made that quite clear. You will take ONE line out of a post, out of context and ignore all the other reasoning, and try to warp that into a tangential strawman and claim victory when you are done. That isn't talking with someone, it's arrogantly presuming you have the WAY to teach and talking to someone. You have made it very clear you are above talking WITH someone and actually caring what they say. I couldn't buy tickets for a show as entertaining as you put on with your posturing. AND YET, I still take the time to address you. Which is more than you do for me. You address ONLY selected parts, and avoid the points that are most relevant for your convenience it appears. As long as you do that, PLEASE stop posturing as the holy one here. That's the same method the viper used with Eve.

You are right. But people that repeatedly refuse to address the reasoning and just tell people they are wrong, come across as uppity, snotty, presumptuous people not worth wasting time on. This will be my last try with you.... what will it be.

Your idea that you can take a fifteen point analysis, look at it, disagree, tell the person they are wrong for reasons that don't address anything in the fifteen reasons they presented, just shows a narcissistic personality demanding attention and to be treated as an authority. Now, for the sake of conversation, after you give your reasons, and ignored mine, and I go address your reasoning, most of it was preempted in the fifteen reasons you ignored. Then you dodge or evade them again, and try to non sequitur, strawman, spaceship, crawdad yourself away from there. I bet in all the time you have posted on this board, you have not admitted to error once.

I'm preaching now. But I'm not avoiding your arguments. I'm hitting them one at a time. I respect you enough to do that, even though you hae shown nothing to earn that respect. Since I"m not avoiding your arguments, I am engaging with you. That is the CON in Conversation.... When you ignore the arguments you are just VERSATIONing no CON.
CON, a prefix 1575–85; short for Latin contrā in opposition, against

Response doesn't even make sense. IF you were equal to those you discuss with, you would heed their arguments and address them, not pose as that is beneath you, and just spew out opposing views that ignore all they said.

It's in my head because it's in your positioning and your behavior. I can't control your behavior, I can only observe. I use English to describe what I observe. Those were the words that hit closest to the image you present.

It's a phrase I use when someone ignores 850 verses to claim none of them mean what they say because THIS OTHER VERSE says something I think is difference. It's when a person starts interpreting for God Himself. It's one step below God's editor which are those that remove verses and words they don't like to make their points. You gotta couple of those around here too.

I can't remember a post you have made, that addressed the points of your opponent in the discussion. In every instance, you just stand there chin out, chest out, and say, NO, this is how it is. Without engaging their reasoning, you do NOTHING to forward a conversation. You are just spitting opinions out. We all spit opinions, but the idea is to take opposing opinions (the CON in Conversation) and work through them with reason to a new conclusion. Your approach is, "They are idiots they are wrong I will correct them and show them how it is." Which that thought alone isn't necessarily bad. But when that's ALL you have it's bad.

Oh, I believe you. YOu horde it ALL and never share it. I'm anxiously awaiting the first time I can experience your reasoning and not your lecturing. Heck, you may have something revelatory when it happens.

And the irony here is, you support a man who lied against me. A blatant lie at that. You refuse to berate him, correct him, advise him, but you will jump me for making the point he's lied and ask for an apology. Yeah, that is "beating them up" isn't it. It's a defensive position, sister. If the OFFENSE wasn't given, I wouldn't have to be defensive. Episkopos and MLS and I don't agree on tons of very relevant things, but we can work through it to a conclusion we can all take something from. With you and Strat all we get are, NU UHS! and whining and crying when we don't accept that.

>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>Actually, you don't. If two sides are irreconcilable, that has to be recognised, the irreconcilable features identified, <<<<<<<<<<

But, you don't know that if you never engage. YOU do not engage. You lecture. We don't know if we disagree or not, all we get from you is, NU UH!

YOU>>>>>>>>>>>>
and the truth of the irreconciliabilities acknowledged.... which may mean there isn't an argument any more. God was right.
Why not?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Because if you don't address the other side, you don't know which is stronger. You have water and you have fire. Until you put them together you don't know which part/s hold up to scrutiny.

Dragoon, in response to the second long post.... there is no need to reply until you understand what I said. You are off on a tyrade killing a strawman.

Homosexuality isn't a sin in the Bible.

Homosexual sex is.

Show me I am wrong, and everything comes in line.

Continue to pretend this isn't my position is just dishonest.

If you want to add to what the BIBLE SAYS to justify your bigotry, then we will have to disagree on that one. I'm ok with that, it would be honest at least.

Show me anywhere that it's not homosexual sex that is the sin.

If you don't mind Dragonfly I would like to engage this conversation:

Firstly, for three-quarters of your post, you rave on about Dragonfly, Strat. Among some things you accuse them of: removing and ignoring Scripture, erecting strawmen, lying, taking out of context. Not that I'm saying they haven't done that, but what are you doing? If I recall, when you did that to me, a couple of posts ago, you had merely cut off ' the natural point for what YOU had observed and commented on'. And now look who's speaking?
Then you tell me that you're not all fired up. Who are you kidding? I might not have grey hairs yet, but it be some person who can write 3/4 of a post that consists of ad homin (at person) instead of focussing on topic.

Now you keep accusing me of dodging the 'topic'. So now I'll address it.
Firstly, your argument hinges on this assumed fact: homosexuals are born that way, it's in the genes. I believe I've already addressed some of this, and despite all the proof you rave on about, we haven't actually seen any yet . . . :/
Now, let's go to the Bible to see what it has to say about homosexuality. Type it into the search. Oops. The word ain't there! My bad.

Now let's see: they do label it effeminate.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Umm, is effeminate the equal of homosexual? Cause if it is, none of them are going to inherit God's kingdom . . .

Agh. Here's what I was looking for.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

So, XP, tell me, if homosexuality is NATURAL as you like to propose, then why is Paul talking about a natural use? How can one leave the natural use and what he does still be natural? Homosexuality is unnatural, thus putting to bed your misconception that homosexuality is just an inherited feature or what not.

Now before I sign out, you lay down this challenge: Show me I am wrong, and everything comes in line.
I think I better open your eyes a bit: Scripture declares acts of homosexuality is wrong. A homosexual is so called not because he thinks it, but because he does it as well.
You have some gall laying down a challenge, when IT'S YOU WHO SHOULD BE PROVING YOUR POINT.
I now return the favour.
Where in Scripture am I shown that homosexuality is not a sin, but doing homosexual acts is a sin?

dragonfly · Oct 16, 2012

Hi XP,

Thank you for your last post to me. I think I get the message... you feel incapable of listening to the other person's argument and working out how it opposes yours. You want me to spell all that out for you.

Do you know... I entered this thread on the strength of the OP, which was made by a poster who's changed his name to ZebraHug. I - at this point in time - have not noticed your 'fifteen point' presentation, and that explains why I haven't addressed it.

But, I have given you more than Bible verses to express my views, and I still don't know whether you have even thought about my views, except to complain that I didn't specificallly mention yours.

As I've also posted in the old Homosexuality thread, today, I will not give my reasoning again, but I do want to acknowledge this which you said:

Homosexuality isn't a sin in the Bible.

Homosexual sex is.

Show me I am wrong, and everything comes in line.

Continue to pretend this isn't my position is just dishonest.

I acknowledge that homosexual sex is sinful behaviour. However, the fruit on the tree is the manifestation of the nature of the root, and unless the tree has a change of root, it will continue to be the homosexuality root - a variety of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Abstinence may help it wither a bit, but to die, it must be cut off at the root and grafted into the tree of life. Then it will bear good fruit of life.

Just before I end this post, I think I should resist this statement you made.

With you and Strat all we get are, NU UHS! and whining and crying when we don't accept that.

I haven't noticed Strat whining, or crying, and I haven't either. We have stated our cases with simple confidence, and refuse to be bullied.

By anyone here.

Going back to the topic of the thread, no matter what a person's disadvantages in life, no matter from how young, if they have survived long enough to encounter God, and begin to follow Jesus Christ, He can put the whole man right, reintegrating everything which has been dislocated or damaged by sin, and coping with sin.

Within scripture there is a link between distressing visual images, and, madness. God has made us like Himself, and through Jeremiah He complains that people have not averted their eyes from seeing evil. He knows it's destructive. He knows the images last. And so do God's enemies.

It is an affront to God to lay at His door the causation of homosexual desires in those who have them, because through Paul, He makes clear that everyone born on this earth 'knew Him', John 1:9 but chose not to cultivate their relationship with Him. I know it's not that simple for many who find themselves battling homosexual impulses, but I also know that God is faithful and can deliver from every bondage, as He claims.

What you've said in various posts about running to God, is very good advice, especially at times of temptation.

Xian Pugilist · Oct 16, 2012

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>>Firstly, for three-quarters of your post, you rave on about Dragonfly, Strat.<<<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<

If you have a pack of wolves that keep killing your chickens, are you going to talk about the fence or the wolves?

ZebraHug said:
Among some things you accuse them of: removing and ignoring Scripture, erecting strawmen, lying, taking out of context.

I didn't "accuse" I demonstrated, revealed, noted when and where it happened as well as a why. Now, you can pretend like I made it up as I went, but that's a reflection on your honesty, not mine.

ZebraHug said:
Not that I'm saying they haven't done that, but what are you doing?

Working against all odds to bring the conversation around to respectable chat again. In this case It;s almost like an intervention. You could also say I'm doing Matt 5:18 escalated to a public Peter/Paul flavor.
Look, I've admitted to being wrong. I've had to back up on some of my comments. If you go to my first posts I repeatedly referred to, discuss the arguments, not me personally. The more I asked for them to discuss the arguments, not me personally, the more personal it got. At a point I put a foot down. THEN people whined and cried that I was being mean. The moral to this story is there is a contingent on this board, that wish to force their will on others and dictate as well as define the character of other users through lies and manipulation, but if you challenge them on it, they will rally the troops and call you a big ole ugly bugger bear. Or whatever.

ZebraHug said:
If I recall, when you did that to me, a couple of posts ago, you had merely cut off ' the natural point for what YOU had observed and commented on'. And now look who's speaking?

As I recall I asked for any proof of me doing that and I'd adjust it. All I got, as far as I saw, was an accusation. If I missed the proof I'll be glad to go review it and fix it.
I miss things sometimes... but I don't think anyone will take my posts and say I eliminate things....

ZebraHug said:
Then you tell me that you're not all fired up. Who are you kidding? I might not have grey hairs yet, but it be some person who can write 3/4 of a post that consists of ad homin (at person) instead of focussing on topic.

I'm fired up now. At that time I was still trying to get you guys to act like adults. Now it's past the point of reason, it's personal and malicious. In some instances where there was no way out, you "HOLY XIANS" just called me more names and said, basically, F it. There was no remorse for a public error that attacked my character. You wanna gripe about me not being happy with that, I give you, yes I'm ticked off at this point. I'll go through EVERY set of posts with you. I'm sure I've misread a few, but the Great Preponderance will be exactly as I've demonstrated. I've asked other of you MOST HOLIES if you would consider that and change if I did it. I got no answer. There is no concern among your crowd (which I am not sure you go into it or are on the fringe...) about getting it right. Just in bashing people that don't say what they want to hear. That's an empirically proven fact.

ZebraHug said:
Now you keep accusing me of dodging the 'topic'. So now I'll address it.
Firstly, your argument hinges on this assumed fact: homosexuals are born that way, it's in the genes.

No it does not, but at least I can see why that assumption was made, that's a step up. Although I do believe many are born that way. I know some are there because of trauma. Some are just sexual addicts and we are lucky they aren't chasing cantaloupes with cork screws in their hands. If they are gay, HOW they got there is irrelevant. It's not about sex for the majority of them.

ZebraHug said:
I believe I've already addressed some of this, and despite all the proof you rave on about, we haven't actually seen any yet . . . :/

And I addressed your comments.

ZebraHug said:
Now, let's go to the Bible to see what it has to say about homosexuality. Type it into the search. Oops. The word ain't there! My bad.
Now let's see: they do label it effeminate.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Umm, is effeminate the equal of homosexual? Cause if it is, none of them are going to inherit God's kingdom . . .

I've tried, I don't have a crayola font. I will use one syllable words.

I did not say they would go to HIM.
I made the point that the BOOK says it is the boink boink that is the sin, not the IN`clin`Ation. Inclination of the person. And taht is exactly what the Bible says. THAT A MAN LAY WITH A MAN.

Now see, I've said this before. You didn't comment on it there. You ignored it and try to repeat the same ole arguments again and again like if your silly booty repeats it enough it will change the Bible and convince God He was wrong or something.... You were answered. You ignored the answers. You say the same stupid stuff.

Wonder why I'm aggravated at your holy huddle? There you have it. HAD YOU ENGAGED in that discussion, this would not be repeated again.

The whole lot of you are like a petulant child, laying on your back beating your hands and fists on the ground screaming MINE MINE MINE. You dont' even understand what I've said in most cases, you just BY GAWD AND ALL DAT'S HOLY KNOW THAT BOY AIN'T RIGHT, HE IS WRONG!!!! And you jump in arguing against things I never said. We had a word for people like you when I was in competitive debate. But it would get me banned here. Although the word, as disrespectful as it is, would still be more respectful than you bunch have been to me.

ZebraHug said:
Agh. Here's what I was looking for.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

That addresses a man porkin' a man, not a homosexual who isn't having sex. Thanks for making my point.

ZebraHug said:
So, XP, tell me, if homosexuality is NATURAL as you like to propose,

I never proposed, I denied your claim that it was unnatural. You proposed it was unnatural. But by definition if it occurs REPEATEDLY AND BROADLY in nature, it is not by definition unnatural. Your answer was something like, "you can't trust the people that wrote that". My retort here, coward. If you can't refute and win the point, concede it. This crap you are pulling here trying to rewrite events to save face is cowardly bs.

YOU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then why is Paul talking about a natural use? How can one leave the natural use and what he does still be natural? Homosexuality is unnatural, thus putting to bed your misconception that homosexuality is just an inherited feature or what not<<<<<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Let's see, your argument is, homosexuality is unnatural so it's unnatural. Hmmph. Not much arguing with that. Romans 1 isn't talking about homosexuals by the way. If you read it for what it says, not for what you can make it say, homosexual sex actors are mentioned, but as part of an overall whole that is doing bad. They are but one of many examples of the offense. HOWEVER when you need to justify the ungodly act of bigotry, and claim it's GODLY you need SOME liberty to ignore the inconvenient parts.

>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>>Now before I sign out, you lay down this challenge: Show me I am wrong, and everything comes in line. <<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<

Liar. Been done already more than once. You didn't answer the arguments there, you evaded them and repeated the same comments here again. The more I show you wrong, the more you can't answer, the more times you start over and repeat the same things. Be honest with yourself if not with me.

>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I better open your eyes a bit: Scripture declares acts of homosexuality is wrong. A homosexual is so called not because he thinks it, but because he does it as well. <<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<

Scripture, and you showed it, is man laying with man. A man attracted to men, but not lusting, and not boinking, has committed no sin.

[>>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>You have some gall laying down a challenge, when IT'S YOU WHO SHOULD BE PROVING YOUR POINT.
I now return the favour. <<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<< Sigh,

You idiot. I would take up five pages just cutting and pasting all the arguments I've made to prove my point that either were ignored or not answered. You are making empty posturing. There is no honor to you.

>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>Where in Scripture am I shown that homosexuality is not a sin, but doing homosexual acts is a sin?<<<<<<<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<
The verse you showed. The sex act is the sin. The commandment, the actual LAYING with, sex act, is the sin.

I hope you find God before this is over and lose the need to pretend so hard.

dragonfly said:
Thank you for your last post to me. I think I get the message... you feel incapable of listening to the other person's argument and working out how it opposes yours. You want me to spell all that out for you.

Yes that's it. After I wade through the passive aggression, the feigned insults, the crap, to the point, which doesn't clock anything I was talking about directly, I need you to spell it out.

IF: I say the Grass is greener in Texas.
1) we fertilize it precisely as it should be.
2) we use the best water.
3) it's scientifically proven to be greener.

THEN: you say, Wisconsin has happier cows,
they make better milk, and their steaks aren't bad either.

WELL: I'm lost.
SO I come back with, would you address what I said?

YOU respond, I get it, if I don't say exactly how you want to hear it it's not good enough.....
Yes, you summed it up very well.

[

YOU>>>>>>Do you know... I entered this thread on the strength of the OP, which was made by a poster who's changed his name to ZebraHug. I - at this point in time - have not noticed your 'fifteen point' presentation, and that explains why I haven't addressed it.<<<<<<YOU

Then just answer the arguments that have been levied against you. You don't do that. You leave them untouched and repeat your opinion.

YOU>>>>>>>But, I have given you more than Bible verses to express my views, and I still don't know whether you have even thought about my views, except to complain that I didn't specificallly mention yours.YOU<<<<<<<

And in several cases your bible verses backed up my view, or didn't cover what you said it did. So after I show that, which eliminates your claims at a point what do you do?

Nothing.

You just start the chat all over and repeat the same things again.

Wonder why that's frustrating?

YOu are so busy being RIGHT, you can't waste any time with us peons that put something out there that's new or difficult.

YOU>>>>>>As I've also posted in the old Homosexuality thread, today, I will not give my reasoning again, but I do want to acknowledge this which you said:

I acknowledge that homosexual sex is sinful behaviour. However, the fruit on the tree is the manifestation of the nature of the root, and unless the tree has a change of root, it will continue to be the homosexuality root - a variety of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.YOU<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The root is sin. If your comment is true, nobody gets in on God's team until they have repented sin, MEANING changed from sinning ever again. Like the Romans verse you showed other and blamed the homosexuals when they were one of several. You ignored the other "hetero" sins, and just grabbed the homosexual one to make a point that was false. You do crap like that all the time and when pointed out ignore it, rather than be shamed and apologize.

YOU>>>>>>>Abstinence may help it wither a bit, but to die, it must be cut off at the root and grafted into the tree of life. Then it will bear good fruit of life.<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<<<

It dies with the rest of sin. WHen the sinful nature is removed, and the Spirit of God indwells. You'll never get there trying to conquer your sins. You'll only get there growing in God, and God is Love.

YOU>>>>>>>>>
Just before I end this post, I think I should resist this statement you made.

I haven't noticed Strat whining, or crying, and I haven't either. We have stated our cases with simple confidence, and refuse to be bullied.[<<<<<<<YOU

I'm sure you haven't. You defended him for lying and told me I was wrong for saying he lied against me. Heheh why would you consider him whining or crying if you approve of his behavior of lying maliciously? That's just dumb to even suggest it. I can count the posts on one half a finger that he's made since I've been here that wasn't attacking a person on a personal level. (would exclude threads I haven't entered, of course.)

But, while it's wrong for me to say he shouldn't do that, and catch him at it, and thus you need to reprimand me and defend him, it's OK FOR HIM TO DO THE SINS.

WHEN did pointing out the offense become bigger than doing the offense?

dragonfly said:
By anyone here.

It is an affront to God to lay at His door the causation of homosexual desires in those who have them, because through Paul, He makes clear that everyone born on this earth 'knew Him', John 1:9 but chose not to cultivate their relationship with Him.

Yes. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And God ordered Judas to betray Him. God creates evil/calamity. It too serves his purpose. For you to say it's wrong to admit that, is just naïveté. None of you can grow in God's Love, appropriately, until you stop dehumanizing homosexuals. The first step is to admit scripture says it's the homosexual sex that is the sin. Not a one of you have manned or ma'amed up to the question, what sin does a celibate homosexual commit. Which, I know better than to expect it, that would mean you face the arguments that derail your positions.

dragonfly said:
I know it's not that simple for many who find themselves battling homosexual impulses, but I also know that God is faithful and can deliver from every bondage, as He claims.

What you've said in various posts about running to God, is very good advice, especially at times of temptation.

God commands you to love His enemies. The approach of you guys is to not get your hands dirty. That's why the pharisees walked wide of the bleeding man. To stay ritually clean they had to maintain so many feet. IF they are GOD'S or NOT He provides for them. Christ commanded you to love/do the same. On this topic of homosexual rights and marriage, you do the exact ANTIChrist thing. You aggressively seek to keep them without rights.

You have no faith in GOD to know what He's doing.

If you were Gideon you'd have called the army back and picked up arms.

If you were shadrach and gang you'd have avoided the furnace.

Just blindly trust Him, stop trying to do His job and let His will unfold.

WHEN Gay marriages are made legal, it's not going to change a damn thing about how GOD looks at marriages. It will merely protect those marriages from those within His church.

The bigotry is so bad, the government had to pass laws to FORCE people to hire them. Do you think that was EVIL and should be revoked?

Strat · Oct 16, 2012

Xian Pugilist said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>>Firstly, for three-quarters of your post, you rave on about Dragonfly, Strat.<<<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<

If you have a pack of wolves that keep killing your chickens, are you going to talk about the fence or the wolves?

I didn't "accuse" I demonstrated, revealed, noted when and where it happened as well as a why. Now, you can pretend like I made it up as I went, but that's a reflection on your honesty, not mine.

Working against all odds to bring the conversation around to respectable chat again. In this case It;s almost like an intervention. You could also say I'm doing Matt 5:18 escalated to a public Peter/Paul flavor.
Look, I've admitted to being wrong. I've had to back up on some of my comments. If you go to my first posts I repeatedly referred to, discuss the arguments, not me personally. The more I asked for them to discuss the arguments, not me personally, the more personal it got. At a point I put a foot down. THEN people whined and cried that I was being mean. The moral to this story is there is a contingent on this board, that wish to force their will on others and dictate as well as define the character of other users through lies and manipulation, but if you challenge them on it, they will rally the troops and call you a big ole ugly bugger bear. Or whatever.

As I recall I asked for any proof of me doing that and I'd adjust it. All I got, as far as I saw, was an accusation. If I missed the proof I'll be glad to go review it and fix it. [/font][/color]
I miss things sometimes... but I don't think anyone will take my posts and say I eliminate things....

[/font][/color]

I'm fired up now. At that time I was still trying to get you guys to act like adults. Now it's past the point of reason, it's personal and malicious. In some instances where there was no way out, you "HOLY XIANS" just called me more names and said, basically, F it. There was no remorse for a public error that attacked my character. You wanna gripe about me not being happy with that, I give you, yes I'm ticked off at this point. I'll go through EVERY set of posts with you. I'm sure I've misread a few, but the Great Preponderance will be exactly as I've demonstrated. I've asked other of you MOST HOLIES if you would consider that and change if I did it. I got no answer. There is no concern among your crowd (which I am not sure you go into it or are on the fringe...) about getting it right. Just in bashing people that don't say what they want to hear. That's an empirically proven fact.

No it does not, but at least I can see why that assumption was made, that's a step up. Although I do believe many are born that way. I know some are there because of trauma. Some are just sexual addicts and we are lucky they aren't chasing cantaloupes with cork screws in their hands. If they are gay, HOW they got there is irrelevant. It's not about sex for the majority of them. [/font][/color]

And I addressed your comments.

I've tried, I don't have a crayola font. I will use one syllable words.

I did not say they would go to HIM.
I made the point that the BOOK says it is the boink boink that is the sin, not the IN`clin`Ation. Inclination of the person. And taht is exactly what the Bible says. THAT A MAN LAY WITH A MAN.

Now see, I've said this before. You didn't comment on it there. You ignored it and try to repeat the same ole arguments again and again like if your silly booty repeats it enough it will change the Bible and convince God He was wrong or something.... You were answered. You ignored the answers. You say the same stupid stuff.

Wonder why I'm aggravated at your holy huddle? There you have it. HAD YOU ENGAGED in that discussion, this would not be repeated again.

The whole lot of you are like a petulant child, laying on your back beating your hands and fists on the ground screaming MINE MINE MINE. You dont' even understand what I've said in most cases, you just BY GAWD AND ALL DAT'S HOLY KNOW THAT BOY AIN'T RIGHT, HE IS WRONG!!!! And you jump in arguing against things I never said. We had a word for people like you when I was in competitive debate. But it would get me banned here. Although the word, as disrespectful as it is, would still be more respectful than you bunch have been to me.

That addresses a man porkin' a man, not a homosexual who isn't having sex. Thanks for making my point.

I never proposed, I denied your claim that it was unnatural. You proposed it was unnatural. But by definition if it occurs REPEATEDLY AND BROADLY in nature, it is not by definition unnatural. Your answer was something like, "you can't trust the people that wrote that". My retort here, coward. If you can't refute and win the point, concede it. This crap you are pulling here trying to rewrite events to save face is cowardly bs.

YOU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then why is Paul talking about a natural use? How can one leave the natural use and what he does still be natural? Homosexuality is unnatural, thus putting to bed your misconception that homosexuality is just an inherited feature or what not<<<<<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Let's see, your argument is, homosexuality is unnatural so it's unnatural. Hmmph. Not much arguing with that. Romans 1 isn't talking about homosexuals by the way. If you read it for what it says, not for what you can make it say, homosexual sex actors are mentioned, but as part of an overall whole that is doing bad. They are but one of many examples of the offense. HOWEVER when you need to justify the ungodly act of bigotry, and claim it's GODLY you need SOME liberty to ignore the inconvenient parts.

>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>>Now before I sign out, you lay down this challenge: Show me I am wrong, and everything comes in line. <<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<

Liar. Been done already more than once. You didn't answer the arguments there, you evaded them and repeated the same comments here again. The more I show you wrong, the more you can't answer, the more times you start over and repeat the same things. Be honest with yourself if not with me.

>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I better open your eyes a bit: Scripture declares acts of homosexuality is wrong. A homosexual is so called not because he thinks it, but because he does it as well. <<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<

Scripture, and you showed it, is man laying with man. A man attracted to men, but not lusting, and not boinking, has committed no sin.

[>>>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>You have some gall laying down a challenge, when IT'S YOU WHO SHOULD BE PROVING YOUR POINT.
I now return the favour. <<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<< Sigh,

You idiot. I would take up five pages just cutting and pasting all the arguments I've made to prove my point that either were ignored or not answered. You are making empty posturing. There is no honor to you.

>>>>>>>>>YOU>>>>>>>>>>Where in Scripture am I shown that homosexuality is not a sin, but doing homosexual acts is a sin?<<<<<<<<<<<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<
The verse you showed. The sex act is the sin. The commandment, the actual LAYING with, sex act, is the sin.

I hope you find God before this is over and lose the need to pretend so hard.

Yes that's it. After I wade through the passive aggression, the feigned insults, the crap, to the point, which doesn't clock anything I was talking about directly, I need you to spell it out.

IF: I say the Grass is greener in Texas.
1) we fertilize it precisely as it should be.
2) we use the best water.
3) it's scientifically proven to be greener.

THEN: you say, Wisconsin has happier cows,
they make better milk, and their steaks aren't bad either.

WELL: I'm lost.
SO I come back with, would you address what I said?

YOU respond, I get it, if I don't say exactly how you want to hear it it's not good enough.....
Yes, you summed it up very well.

[

YOU>>>>>>Do you know... I entered this thread on the strength of the OP, which was made by a poster who's changed his name to ZebraHug. I - at this point in time - have not noticed your 'fifteen point' presentation, and that explains why I haven't addressed it.<<<<<<YOU

Then just answer the arguments that have been levied against you. You don't do that. You leave them untouched and repeat your opinion.

YOU>>>>>>>But, I have given you more than Bible verses to express my views, and I still don't know whether you have even thought about my views, except to complain that I didn't specificallly mention yours.YOU<<<<<<<

And in several cases your bible verses backed up my view, or didn't cover what you said it did. So after I show that, which eliminates your claims at a point what do you do?

Nothing.

You just start the chat all over and repeat the same things again.

Wonder why that's frustrating?

YOu are so busy being RIGHT, you can't waste any time with us peons that put something out there that's new or difficult.

YOU>>>>>>As I've also posted in the old Homosexuality thread, today, I will not give my reasoning again, but I do want to acknowledge this which you said:

I acknowledge that homosexual sex is sinful behaviour. However, the fruit on the tree is the manifestation of the nature of the root, and unless the tree has a change of root, it will continue to be the homosexuality root - a variety of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.YOU<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The root is sin. If your comment is true, nobody gets in on God's team until they have repented sin, MEANING changed from sinning ever again. Like the Romans verse you showed other and blamed the homosexuals when they were one of several. You ignored the other "hetero" sins, and just grabbed the homosexual one to make a point that was false. You do crap like that all the time and when pointed out ignore it, rather than be shamed and apologize.

YOU>>>>>>>Abstinence may help it wither a bit, but to die, it must be cut off at the root and grafted into the tree of life. Then it will bear good fruit of life.<<<YOU<<<<<<<<<<<

It dies with the rest of sin. WHen the sinful nature is removed, and the Spirit of God indwells. You'll never get there trying to conquer your sins. You'll only get there growing in God, and God is Love.

YOU>>>>>>>>>
Just before I end this post, I think I should resist this statement you made.

I haven't noticed Strat whining, or crying, and I haven't either. We have stated our cases with simple confidence, and refuse to be bullied.[<<<<<<<YOU

I'm sure you haven't. You defended him for lying and told me I was wrong for saying he lied against me. Heheh why would you consider him whining or crying if you approve of his behavior of lying maliciously? That's just dumb to even suggest it. I can count the posts on one half a finger that he's made since I've been here that wasn't attacking a person on a personal level. (would exclude threads I haven't entered, of course.)

But, while it's wrong for me to say he shouldn't do that, and catch him at it, and thus you need to reprimand me and defend him, it's OK FOR HIM TO DO THE SINS.

WHEN did pointing out the offense become bigger than doing the offense?

Yes. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And God ordered Judas to betray Him. God creates evil/calamity. It too serves his purpose. For you to say it's wrong to admit that, is just naïveté. None of you can grow in God's Love, appropriately, until you stop dehumanizing homosexuals. The first step is to admit scripture says it's the homosexual sex that is the sin. Not a one of you have manned or ma'amed up to the question, what sin does a celibate homosexual commit. Which, I know better than to expect it, that would mean you face the arguments that derail your positions.

God commands you to love His enemies. The approach of you guys is to not get your hands dirty. That's why the pharisees walked wide of the bleeding man. To stay ritually clean they had to maintain so many feet. IF they are GOD'S or NOT He provides for them. Christ commanded you to love/do the same. On this topic of homosexual rights and marriage, you do the exact ANTIChrist thing. You aggressively seek to keep them without rights.

You have no faith in GOD to know what He's doing.

If you were Gideon you'd have called the army back and picked up arms.

If you were shadrach and gang you'd have avoided the furnace.

Just blindly trust Him, stop trying to do His job and let His will unfold.

WHEN Gay marriages are made legal, it's not going to change a damn thing about how GOD looks at marriages. It will merely protect those marriages from those within His church.

The bigotry is so bad, the government had to pass laws to FORCE people to hire them. Do you think that was EVIL and should be revoked?

Just as i suspected...a perverted apostate who defends perversion,then tries to tell everyone else how they are supposed to live.

Groundzero · Oct 16, 2012

I shall now continue to be a 'coward' and dodge the non-existent points of XP.

Some some reasoning on the topic: (WARNING: might be a bit complex for some people . . . .)

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

dragonfly · Oct 17, 2012

Hi ZebraHug,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments in a previous post.

Hi XP,

Your strongly-held views are far from God's. John 5:43. When are you going to acknowledge this fact?

While you carry on promoting humanistic, pluralistic, relativistic doctrine not found in scripture with regard to sodomites, they are going to miss all the good things God can do for them if they will repent, and turn from the false identity they've adopted.

Your repetitious insistence that it's equally natural to be a homosexual as it is to be heterosexual, has no Bibllical foundation whatever, and your focus on sex acts as the defining factor, only proves your lack of objectivity about sexual behaviour per se - most of which is spelled out in some detail in various narratives or laws in the OT. (We are all called to be holy in whole-hearted reality, not just in superficial pretence.)

When you can get your head round those details, and start looking at the issues from God's point of view, you'll begin to 'see' how far short you are selling them with your current stance, which basically announces that you don't care a fig if they go to hell and perish eternally, but which you're determined to bill as the love of God! I don't think so. You're actually promoting a gross deception, which will protect them from truth.

The Christian is called to address a person's heart-state, and to minister the love of God to the inner man, where all the damage has been done by the sins of others and the person's own reactions to them. Emotional health will automatically flow from the healing of their spirit, soul and mind, as they make the break with sinful practices and allow themselves to be accepted back into healthier relationships with heterosexuals.

Civil rights for homosexuals need not be a Christian issue, although we desire they experience total safety in our communities.

Of course, you are entitled to express the view that you currently hold, but there's no way it can be supported from the whole breadth of scripture.

If you have been taught that your views are scriptural, you've been misled big time. Loving one's neighbour is not about promoting his sin. It's about making sure he has shelter, food and clothes, his wife and children are safe, and his animals have enough provender.

Tossing insults around like confetti, just because no-one here agrees with you, may be what you're used to doing, or receiving, but there is a better way. If you can't tolerate the difference of viewpoint, initially, you can always pick up your ball and go home to think about it.

Do you realise, it is the commonest thinking error on earth, for every one of us to wish we could be an exception from having to fall in with God's mind and ways of seeing things? And yet those who let Him deal with the root of rebellion in their hearts, never regret becoming one with Him.

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Oct 20, 2012

THE QUESTION IS MEANT TO JUSTIFY THE SIN.

Whether it is asked of Christians as a discussion point or whether it is stated in the world, it is meant to justify sin.
The only justification for sin is the blood of Christ shed upon the cross.
Everything else is a lie and a perversion of righteousness.

If everybody does it (sin) does God wink and say its ok for you to do it?
Certainly not.

No good parent would accept the excuse from their child as a justification for doing wrong. God doesn't either.
However, our modern culture, which justifies everything except right living before God, does indeed accept this perverted logic.
God demands right behavior. One cannot justify killing and robbery because one is born poor and one cannot justify abherrent behavior because one is inclined to do it. Everyone is inclined to sin in one form or another. Why should one particular type be singled out as approved behavior?

Jesus warned the people of His day to 'beware the leaven of the pharisees.'. The 'leaven' He referred to was religious tradition - cultural values. They were wrong then and our cultural values are wrong now.

To paraphrase Our Lord - beware political correctness. It isn't God's way.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?

Are homosexuals born that way?

no

yes

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