Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?
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Then maybe this
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
Will lead to this
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
Will lead to this
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You want to continue after I showed you the way out he will keep My word; Repentance
The Greek term for forgiveness means to "lay-aside," which is a different, and less forgiving meaning than the word absolution. When applied to Luke 17:3-4, "If another believer sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. Even if he wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and repents, forgive him," this verse takes on a specific meaning. It is addressed to believers, (not everyone in general) and specifies repentance as the all important criteria for forgiving. Without repentance the believer is to be rebuked - period! Remember, only one criminal that was crucified beside Christ was promised salvation, the one that repented! For a Christian to forgive a deliberate sinful act without repentance is to condone evil and is sin itself. When people bowed down and humbled themselves before idols, God told Isaiah, "Do not forgive them" (Isaiah 2:9). No where in Scripture does God indicate that forgiveness is justified without need for repentance, and if that’s good enough for God it should be good enough for us! Forgiveness can only be experienced by those who honestly admit they need it. As is recorded in Psalm 51, David, who was responsible for the deaths of some 2000 fellow soldiers in his adulterous lust for Saul’s daughter, asked God for forgiveness:
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy loving kindness: according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me."
SO WHAT IS REPENTANCE?
The Greek meaning for repentance is "regret," to "think differently," and most notably - change! Many statements of repentance are nothing more than thinly veiled sidesteps to avoid pain resulting from harm someone has done and consequences resulting there from. Repentance means more than remorse for getting caught. While offenders cannot un-spill the milk, they can help clean up the mess they have made. Although it may be impossible at times to know whether repentance is real, we can look for evidence. A truly repentant person will confess wrong, offer no excuses, ask for forgiveness, and accept results. If there is little or no evidence of these criteria being met, an avenue for legitimate forgiveness does not exist - and is not warranted!
The Greek term for forgiveness means to "lay-aside," which is a different, and less forgiving meaning than the word absolution. When applied to Luke 17:3-4, "If another believer sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. Even if he wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and repents, forgive him," this verse takes on a specific meaning. It is addressed to believers, (not everyone in general) and specifies repentance as the all important criteria for forgiving. Without repentance the believer is to be rebuked - period! Remember, only one criminal that was crucified beside Christ was promised salvation, the one that repented! For a Christian to forgive a deliberate sinful act without repentance is to condone evil and is sin itself. When people bowed down and humbled themselves before idols, God told Isaiah, "Do not forgive them" (Isaiah 2:9). No where in Scripture does God indicate that forgiveness is justified without need for repentance, and if that’s good enough for God it should be good enough for us! Forgiveness can only be experienced by those who honestly admit they need it. As is recorded in Psalm 51, David, who was responsible for the deaths of some 2000 fellow soldiers in his adulterous lust for Saul’s daughter, asked God for forgiveness:
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy loving kindness: according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me."
SO WHAT IS REPENTANCE?
The Greek meaning for repentance is "regret," to "think differently," and most notably - change! Many statements of repentance are nothing more than thinly veiled sidesteps to avoid pain resulting from harm someone has done and consequences resulting there from. Repentance means more than remorse for getting caught. While offenders cannot un-spill the milk, they can help clean up the mess they have made. Although it may be impossible at times to know whether repentance is real, we can look for evidence. A truly repentant person will confess wrong, offer no excuses, ask for forgiveness, and accept results. If there is little or no evidence of these criteria being met, an avenue for legitimate forgiveness does not exist - and is not warranted!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
And repentance is instantaneous in your mind, I suppose? You really are demanding of other people, Rex - I am sure glad God is patient.
No, it didn't look like you wrote it, but far too many people who don't read their Bible thoroughly would have no idea that David did NOT have an 'adulterous' relationship with 'Saul's daughter', and therefore I think it would have been worth mentioning that point.
On the matter of repentance and forgiveness, I am in great sympathy with the thesis, but there are some situations where the perpetrator of sin is never going to repent, or, they are not going to repent TO THE SATISFACTION OF the victim, or they are not going to repent in such a way that the victim even knows they have repented.
In fact, it is necessary to repent to God's satisfaction, only, and the victim is not at liberty to hold on to unforgiveness and claim Christ-likeness at the same time; because Christ died for every sinner, and receives every repentant sinner who repents from their heart. In that sense, a perpetrator's forgiveness does not depend on the victim, and the victim has to have a Christ-like attitude to those who harmed them - if from afar.
Therefore, I think we have to be a bit careful not to imply that reconciliation will always be possible in the way implied by Christ's teaching.
Hi Rex,
I am more than happy for you and aspen to vex the points with each other which interest you both the most.
Of course a person who is choosing to succumb to the desires of the spirits infesting their flesh, will believe they have no other choice - such as to choose to call on God for deliverance (as those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6 must have done at some stage, to have experienced freedom from such spirits).
Like with the alcoholic, there can be no release from bondage until the bondage is acknowledged, and until Christ is invited to release and restore the broken areas of that person's life, they will not experience the healing which He can minister to the very roots of the issues which they had tried to blot out with drink. It really doesn't matter what appetite is being fed in a spiritually unhealthy way, the fact is that God has a proper use and fulfilment of all natural appetites and He does not acknowledge the validity of a corrupt substitute. In fact, He condemns every corrupt substitute, no matter how overwhelmingly the flesh desires it.
What's more, scripture teaches very clearly that any fallen man or womam is capable of choosing God's way instead of the many alternatives.
So... you and I are on the same page on that point.
Regarding the other point, please could you give me the verses where the assertion of the writer you quoted, is supported (not noted in the article)?
I am more than happy for you and aspen to vex the points with each other which interest you both the most.
Of course a person who is choosing to succumb to the desires of the spirits infesting their flesh, will believe they have no other choice - such as to choose to call on God for deliverance (as those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6 must have done at some stage, to have experienced freedom from such spirits).
Like with the alcoholic, there can be no release from bondage until the bondage is acknowledged, and until Christ is invited to release and restore the broken areas of that person's life, they will not experience the healing which He can minister to the very roots of the issues which they had tried to blot out with drink. It really doesn't matter what appetite is being fed in a spiritually unhealthy way, the fact is that God has a proper use and fulfilment of all natural appetites and He does not acknowledge the validity of a corrupt substitute. In fact, He condemns every corrupt substitute, no matter how overwhelmingly the flesh desires it.
What's more, scripture teaches very clearly that any fallen man or womam is capable of choosing God's way instead of the many alternatives.
So... you and I are on the same page on that point.
Regarding the other point, please could you give me the verses where the assertion of the writer you quoted, is supported (not noted in the article)?
We have a fish here in Australia called a baramundi, it is born male, and remains so untill it reaches a certain size than becomes female, it has no choice in the matter it is the way it is, i read about a species of fish think in the uk, there is only one female the rest are male, the moment she dies one of the males will change sex. One day all those who are "judging" them they call homosexuals and sinner will stand before God, and they will have to "without any hope" explain why they turned so many from God. This finger pointing is causing so many to rebel against God, it is not done in love, that is mans excuse, a bit like the muslems who force there women to cover themselves up, because they cant face there own sin, than when they sin they blame her, she gets killed, she goes to jail but hes ok with that. I am a sinner just as they are, i am no better nor am I any worse than them, i will love them just as Christ loves me, and I will show them Christ just as He did the sinners Himself, without finger pointing. I know what I am and thank God that you bunch wont be judging anyone for no one would make it by your standards.
In all His Love
In all His Love
I don't think that homosexual attraction is an example of our sin nature, but rather the effects of sin and death on the world. Children are born with spinal bifida, blindness, cerebral palsy, and even mental disorders such as autism. It makes sense that such breakdowns in the natural order can even effect sexual orientation. We were intended to find sexual attraction in the opposite sex, but just like with any physical or mental defect, even our sexuality is subject to irregularities. It just means we're in a sin sick world. Now what we do with what we're given, the choices that we make, there's sin or virtue in that alone.Rach said:
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
God created male and female to become one, because "one" came from the other making them two. They were one and the same person. He did not create two of the same kind [male and male or female and female] to become one because they cannot be one person like Adam and Eve. They do not even have the natural anatomy to do such. Adam has a missing rib...what does that tell you about God and his meaning of two becoming one?
Perversion and sexual impurity including homosexuality and lesbianism will never gain equal status with God's blessing of two becoming one under the covenant of marriage... :huh: because they are of the world and the ruler of this world will always pervert things that are holy and righteous and God ordained... so they are of the world and the world listens to them and we are of Christ and Christ is of God...just my thoughts!
Perversion and sexual impurity including homosexuality and lesbianism will never gain equal status with God's blessing of two becoming one under the covenant of marriage... :huh: because they are of the world and the ruler of this world will always pervert things that are holy and righteous and God ordained... so they are of the world and the world listens to them and we are of Christ and Christ is of God...just my thoughts!
I voted yes ..... but in reality I feel only some are born that way and for the rest it is more of a choice.ZebraHug said:
I go by my younger years in school , out of 800 students there were three boys who were "feminine" from the start .... they were raised in good homes and were never abused or anything
we used to tease them in a friendly way and they didnt mind and we never discriminated against them and they hung around with us as typical buddies . We also teased the tall skinny kids and the short fat ones so it was normal to do so.
Through the teen years is when the problems started , they would flat out say they had no interest in girls ... but they wished they did , and somehow figured they could learn to like girls .... but it never worked.
Two of them went quiet on the whole dating thing , never talked about it , had girls they would take to movies or dances just as a companion type deal .... interestingly they had more freinds who were girls than guy freinds
Many years later I heard they died of AIDS
The third guy was a christian .... always said he was gay but never sexually active .... then met a girl who convinced him he could be changed .... ... they married and actually had three kids but eventually separated .... he remained a christian , moved away , and said all his times trying to be normal and married he felt like a fraud and imposter.
Every one of those three did not want to be gay , they all sincerely tried not to be , and it didn't work .... so I do not blame them and feel they were simply born that way.
I personally dislike the gay agenda , I do not understand it , I feel it is wrong , but I do not blame the people themselves ... they had hard and burdened lives ..... and in a sense you could tell they disliked their condition more than any of us did.
I couldn't help but put myself in the place of a homosexual person (another "sinner" the same as me) and try to imagine how I would feel or "believe" about Christ, and His followers (christians). Is talking about a particular "sin" the way to go, or would we be serving Christ better to talk about sin, period. If I am actively sinning, of any kind, and I could be saved, or not, but doing that, I would know something isn't right in my life, there would be no peace or joy. That is what I believe anyway.
So I feel if I came to this forum, looking for help, an answer, that might change my life, SAVE my life because I might be ready to throw in the towel, I would want to see posts from people talking about God's forgiveness of sins, and how we need to give our life to Him to let Him heal our broken-ness.
Does anyone else "get" what I am talking about here? I don't recall Jesus ever talking about a particular sin, what stands out for me is He said "go and sin no more", and "you must be born again". He didn't talk about whether or not homosexuals, or any particular sin was something we are born with or not. He just says (His Word) that we are born into sin. I better put the scripture, I know I am not quoting it right:
Ephesians 2:3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
There is one but I see all of Ephesians 2 is what I am talking about. But I didn't find the one, if there is, thought there was, about being "born a sinner".
I didn't read every, post on the thread, but the ones I did, were enough to make me sort of cringe. I mean, we christians need to be recognized as different then the "world". I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I just wanted to speak up here. I felt this is not the kind of thread/topic that is edifying for the Body of Christ. Anyone can straighten me out if I am on the wrong track, I'm teachable if other christians think this is a good thing to discuss, whether people are born homosexuals, or not. I know one thing, I was born a sinner. denise, a sister in Christ
So I feel if I came to this forum, looking for help, an answer, that might change my life, SAVE my life because I might be ready to throw in the towel, I would want to see posts from people talking about God's forgiveness of sins, and how we need to give our life to Him to let Him heal our broken-ness.
Does anyone else "get" what I am talking about here? I don't recall Jesus ever talking about a particular sin, what stands out for me is He said "go and sin no more", and "you must be born again". He didn't talk about whether or not homosexuals, or any particular sin was something we are born with or not. He just says (His Word) that we are born into sin. I better put the scripture, I know I am not quoting it right:
Ephesians 2:3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
There is one but I see all of Ephesians 2 is what I am talking about. But I didn't find the one, if there is, thought there was, about being "born a sinner".
I didn't read every, post on the thread, but the ones I did, were enough to make me sort of cringe. I mean, we christians need to be recognized as different then the "world". I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I just wanted to speak up here. I felt this is not the kind of thread/topic that is edifying for the Body of Christ. Anyone can straighten me out if I am on the wrong track, I'm teachable if other christians think this is a good thing to discuss, whether people are born homosexuals, or not. I know one thing, I was born a sinner. denise, a sister in Christ
I think you got it right Denise ... we are all sinners , just different varieties of sin.
All sins being equal , I think the biggest can of worms within Christianity is heterosexual adultery ,
All sins being equal , I think the biggest can of worms within Christianity is heterosexual adultery ,
Haven personally spoken with Dr. Campolo, I can testify that he affirms that same-gender sexual relationships are indeed sinful.aspen said:
(I met Dr. Campolo several years ago when he was speaking at a conference in my city.)
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I have met tony Campolo as well and although he believes homosexuality is sinful, he advocates for same sex committed relationships
Are you sure that you aren't getting the opinion of Dr. Campolo's wife mixed up with his opinion?aspen said:
It is public knowledge that the two have different opinions about how to handle same-gender sexual relationships.
His wife is quite liberal when it comes to such relationships.
http://www.gaychristian.net/campolos.php
"Dr. Campolo's position on homosexuality is conservative: he believes that the Bible forbids all homosexual activity.
However, he does not support attempts to "convert" gays into straights; rather, he advises gay people to pursue celibacy.
His position is what some refer to as "Side B."
"Dr. Campolo's position on homosexuality is conservative: he believes that the Bible forbids all homosexual activity.
However, he does not support attempts to "convert" gays into straights; rather, he advises gay people to pursue celibacy.
His position is what some refer to as "Side B."
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