Two In The Field One Is Taken One Is Left

Alanforchrist said:

The,"Blessed hope", Is in conection with the pre-trib rapture, Not the resurrection.
Please keep the Bible in it's right context.

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ENOCH2010 said:

The rapture happens at the same time of the first resurrection,and we can all see in the scripture when this takes place(Rev 20). If not, would one of the pre-tribbers or mid - tribbers please show me which resurrection the rapture accompanies?

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The first resurrection began with Christ and those that came up out of the graves. These are the firstfruits of the first resurrection. The latter fruits of the first resurrection will rise first, then the raptured church will join them at the 7th seal just prior to the beginning of the day of the Lord that begins with the first trumpet. Rev. 20 doesn't depict a resurrection. It is just showing that, the end of the first resurrection will include those who had gone through the great trib. You'll find these arriving in heaven in Rev. 7:9.

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I don't see where you get that I implied the general resurrection has already occurred. Those coming out of the graves when Christ was resurrected is recorded in the bible. I agree that Christ will return at the last trump, however this is different from the 7th trump of Revelations. The "last trump" is from a different category of trumpets related to the feast of trumpets, not judgmental trumpets.

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teleiosis said:

This is an incorrect reading of 2Th 2:1-8.



Do not fear. A will not happen and B will not happen UNTIL C happens and D happens.

What is the correct order of those events?

Alan says it's A, B, C, D.
However, the word until sets the second two mentioned events as precursors for the first two Paul mentions.
The real order as it happens chronologically is C, D, and then A, B.

Sorry Alan, your take on things belies your desire to be lifted out before the trouble hits, or an uneducated reading... or both.


-- And apostacy does not mean a physical departure.



This is incorrect as well. I knew you had to redefine "Elect" in order to keep your eschatology intact.

Do a word study if you want to count yourself worthy to teach: "elect" when used of people, is ALWAYS used for the Church.



The first Resurrection is only complete when all the martyred Saints are "made alive" (new immortal, imperishable bodies).

The resurrection of the (normal, non-martyred) dead happens before the Rapture.
The Rapture involves only those who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation has decimated the Elect to near extinction.

That event happens together before the martyred Saints are made alive.
The resurrection of the dead and the Rapture of the Elect happens after the midpoint abomination and after the shortened Great Tribulation.
The Rapture happens in conjunction with the Day of the Lord as evidenced by Mt 24:29.
The result of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture of the Elect results in the Great Multitude arriving in Heaven with the sixth Seal.

That is not the completion of the first resurrection at that time because the martyred Saints still await the fulfillment of the fifth Seal with the addition of the Two Witnesses - which doesn't happen until the end of the one 'seven.'

Likewise John announces the first resurrection complete after Armageddon is over and those martyred Saints who had to wait, are lifted out from beneath their place below the Altar.

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Alanforchrist said:

The very reason Paul wrote 2 Thesss 2, To them, Was because some of your relatives were telling them they had to go through the tribulation, And was troubling them.
So Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, To tell them that they will be raptured, pre-trib, "Falling away, KJV", Which means, "A departing".
A departing from the earth, NOT THE FAITH.

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Alanforchrist said:

Anyone who believe the Church goes through the tribulation period,
Either doesn't know the Bible, Or Are calling Jesus, a lying deceiver.
They are calling Paul and other God inspired Biblical writers, Lying deceivers.

As for 2 Thess 2: 3, It is a physical departure, It's the pre-trib rapture.

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Alanforchrist said:

[1]There is no rapture recorded in Rev 20.
[2]The resurrected in Rev 20, Are those who get killed during the tribulation, The Church had already been raptured to heaven and came back with Jesus at that time.

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veteran said:

My relatives??? If you mean what the early Apostles taught and their later disciples of the early Church, then yeah, those ARE my relatives, and they held to a post-tribulational return and gathering to Christ, though they did not use that term for it in their day.

The KJV phrase "a falling away" in 2 Thess.2:3 is the sole Greek word 'apostasia' (Strong's no.646). It means - DEFECTION FROM THE TRUTH according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. It is where the English word 'apostasy' comes from.

Greek 'apostasia' is used one other time in the Greek NT manuscripts, in Acts 21:21 in the KJV as "forsake".


So I don't know what GARBAGE TRASH you're listening to that apostasy means to physically be raptured, but I guess such blind ignorance as your's today is just another marker for how close the times are.

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ENOCH2010 said:

Alan that's pretty strong language for someone that has no proof at all, only an opinion just like the rest of us.






Your opinion is there's no rapture in Rev 20
My opinion there's no rapture until the first resurrection,which is explained in Rev 20

Another opinion you have is that the church is raptured before the trib. But you fail to so in scripture where this resurrection of the dead in Christ is spoken of . So without the resurrection there can be no rapture.

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teleiosis said:

Now that is just plain uncalled for; labeling Christians as deceiving liars just because they disagree with your eschatology... really now.

You did not address any issue I brought up. Instead you go right to the ad hominem attack. That's pitiful. That is not how we reason with each other.

And I'm sorry; you're building your house on sand. Apostesia does NOT mean a physical departure. It is the source for our word apostasy and it means the same thing.

Furthermore, the departure from morals is a condition which precedes Christ's parousia and our being gathered to Him.

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teleiosis said:

Alan, you are seriously in error.

And saying that does not have me reject Christ by calling Him a liar! That is even more offensive.

I'm sorry. You're just able to be sharpened. I reject your "teaching."

The rebellion has begun. 20-25% of Americans are "nones." They believe nothing. Large Protestant denominations embrace sin through acceptance of homosexuality even making these people clergy. The RCC is not exempt from falling away. The secular world wants license for its vices and the love even Christians should have has grown cold.

And this AND the revealing of the anti-Christ have to come before Jesus returns and we are gathered up to Him.

P.S. Even the link you gave for 2Th 2:3 links to 1Ti 4:1 and that passage is entitled falling away from faith.

You are seriously in error in your take on apostesia.

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Alanforchrist said:

[1]Your relatives were the people who went about giving erorneous teachings about the end times.

[2]There is no post-trib rapture. If there was, That means the Church will meey Jesus in the air and come straight back to earth with Him, And that wouldn't make any sense, Plus, Jesus went to heaven to prepare our mansion, And if we were raptured after the tribulation, We wouldn't be going to heaven.


[3]PLEASE NOTE, 2 Thess 2: 3, Doesn't say a falling away from the faith, DOES IT??, NO..No. False teachers made that lie up.
The Greek and the Biblical context means, A Departing from the earth, NOT THE FAITH.
V 3 agrees with v6-7.
First the Church goes, Then the ant-christ can come.
The Greek word "Apostasia" does mean forsake, But in 2 Thess 2: 3, It doesn't mean Apostasia,
It 's a word made up of two Greek words, Meaning "A departing" and "From". And in it's right context, It means a departing from the earth.. NOT THE FAITH.

The only blind ignorance is on from them who believe the Church has to go through the tribulation.
Anyone who believe the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either doesn't know the Bible, Or they are calling Jesus a lying deceiver.

There are to many Biblical scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.

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Read this again and see if it isn't true.
Anyone who believes the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either doesn't know the Bible, Or they are calling Jesus a lying deceiver.

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Alanforchrist said:

[1]Your relatives were the people who went about giving erorneous teachings about the end times.

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Alanforchrist said:

[2]There is no post-trib rapture. If there was, That means the Church will meet Jesus in the air and come straight back to earth with Him, And that wouldn't make any sense, Plus, Jesus went to heaven to prepare our mansion, And if we were raptured after the tribulation, We wouldn't be going to heaven.

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Alanforchrist said:

[3]PLEASE NOTE, 2 Thess 2: 3, Doesn't say a falling away from the faith, DOES IT??, NO..No. False teachers made that lie up.
The Greek and the Biblical context means, A Departing from the earth, NOT THE FAITH.
V 3 agrees with v6-7.
First the Church goes, Then the ant-christ can come.
The Greek word "Apostasia" does mean forsake, But in 2 Thess 2: 3, It doesn't mean Apostasia,
It 's a word made up of two Greek words, Meaning "A departing" and "From". And in it's right context, It means a departing from the earth.. NOT THE FAITH.

The only blind ignorance is on from them who believe the Church has to go through the tribulation.
Anyone who believe the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either doesn't know the Bible, Or they are calling Jesus a lying deceiver.

There are too many Biblical scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.

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Alanforchrist said:

[1]The Bible is my proof, At least I don't teach from 1st imaginations.
[2]We don't go by opinions, We should go by what the Bible says,
The Bible isn't there to be interpreted, It's there to be believed.

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Alanforchrist said:

[1]I never said Christians are deceiving liars. I said.
One either doesn't know the Bible, or they are calling JESUS a lying deceiver, ...
because both Jesus and Paul, who was inspired by God, said we would be raptured before the tribulation.

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Alanforchrist said:

[2]The Greek and the Biblical contextin 2 Thess. 2: 3, means, A Departing from the earth, NOT THE FAITH.
V 3 agrees with v6-7.
First the Church goes, Then the anti-christ can come.
The Greek word "Apostasia" does mean forsake, But in 2 Thess 2: 3, It doesn't mean Apostasia,
It 's a word made up of two Greek words, Meaning "A departing" and "From". And in it's right context, It means a departing from the earth.. NOT THE FAITH.

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Alanforchrist said:

[3]There has been a departing from the faith, You wouldn't recognise some Churches today,
There has be a falling away of Christian morals, One of them is in there scruffy dresswhere, We are suposes to be Embasadors for Christ, Not copying the worlds dress code.
Even Miisters have no resect for God, Their Ministries or the people they Minioster to.
So there hass been a falling away in the Christian morals sense.
But 2 Thess 2: 3 doesn't mean that.

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veteran said:

I see, all you're wanting to do here is make false accusations and bear false witness of the usage of Greek 'apostasia' in 2 Thess.2:3 by Apostle Paul. Basically, you show you have no problem telling lies to try and persuade that the Pre-trib Rapture theory is true.

You CANNOT remove the Greek word 'apostasia' from 2 Thess.2:3, NOR its meaning per the Greek, nor even its English equivalent 'apostasy'!

Apostle Paul related his 'apostasia' idea with the coming of that "man of sin" in 2 Thess.2 sitting in a stone temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself as God, and exalting himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped. A Christian who turns from Christ Jesus to worship another in His place is the ACT OF AN APOSTATE, one who has fallen away from the Truth. That is the meaning of the 2 Thess.2:3-4 Scripture.

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teleiosis said:

Well Alan, since I am a believer, and intelligent enough to do my word study: I'll follow Jesus' teaching that the Rapture happens AFTER the midpoint of the one ''seven' AND AFTER the SHORTENED Great Tribulation ON the Day of the Lord (with the sixth Seal) when Jesus comes on the clouds!

And from Revelation chapters 13-16 I'll follow Jesus' revelation to John that the Harvest of Saints comes AFTER the talking image abomination and the two laws WE'RE told to disobey EVEN THOUGH to do so means we, the Elect, will lose our lives before Jesus comes on the clouds to gather us up.

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Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, AlanforChrist, and Happy Chanukkah.
Now, now; let's not take the nasty route.
Actually, the problem is in the definition of the word "heaven." If you would use the simplest definition for the Greek word "ouranos," you would translate the word as "sky," and that is what the word means. For instance, consider Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4
16 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

Get a Greek New Testament and look these verses up. You will find that each of the four highlighted words above is the SAME GREEK WORD, "ouranos!" So, Yeshua` didn't refuse them a sign, but he gave them a Farmer's Almanac kind of sign! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!"
There's another word "epouranios" that refers to the area "above the sky," stemming from the adjective form of "ouranos," "ouranios," and the prefix meaning "above," "epi." That's where the sun, moon, and stars are, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.

1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV

In the passage within his first letter to the Thessalonians, the passage most often used for the rapture, Paul never said that we were going "above" the "sky," just "into the air," "eis aera," and "in the clouds," "en nefelais":

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Paul said we would meet the Lord and ever be with the Lord (Master Yeshua`), but where does he say that He is going BACK above the sky, taking us with Him? He DOESN'T! I believe that other passages tell us that the Master Yeshua` takes us with Him to ISRA'EL to complete His arrival with an army! Therefore, it's not what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 that I find most telling but what he did NOT say!
Well, not exactly. Your understanding of the Greek has been tainted by the teaching to which you are subjected. The word "apostasia" means a "STANDING apart," not a "departing from." It comes from the two Greek words "apo" meaning "away from" and "histemi" meaning "to stand," or more appropriately, "I stand." Furthermore, "apostasia" is closely akin to "apostasion," which means a "divorce" or a "divorce document." I know this is hard to hear, but I would encourage you to take the time and make the effort to look it up for yourself and see if what I'm saying isn't true. (It IS true; I wouldn't lie to you.)

Also, the "church" already HAS been going through the "Tribulation." The word translated "tribulation" in Matthew and Revelation is NOT just some label for a 7-year period. It's the Greek word "thlipsis" (Strong's NT:2347), which means a "pressure," an "oppression," or a "suppression." In the King James Version of the Bible, it is also rendered "afflicted," "affliction," "anguish," "burdened," "persecution," and "trouble." It stems from the Greek word "thliboo" (using two "o's," "oo," for an omega to keep it separate in transliteration from the short "o" sound of the omicron; it's pronounced as the long "o" in "go," not as a long "oo" in "moon"). "Thliboo" means "I crowd." "Thlipsis" is the Greek word translated as "trouble" in the following verses:

2 Corinthians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
KJV

2 Corinthians 1:8-11
8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
KJV

And, "thliboo" is translated as "trouble" in verse 6 below:

2 Thessalonians 1:3-10
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV

So, my questions to you are these: Was Paul and the people to whom he was writing a part of the "church," or not? If so, then what makes you think that the "church" won't go through "tribulation" when they ALREADY HAVE?

Please notice: I do know my Bible, and I have NOT called Yeshua` (Jesus) a "lying deceiver."
Whereas I agree with you on these points, we still have blind spots to the truth and our own errors because "you don't know that you don't know what you don't know." It's a "catch-22." The REAL question is, are you being taught the right things to believe? Most Christians are followers, not leaders. They will LISTEN to the sermons brought to them by their pastors and teachers each week, but they have never been like the Bereans and "searched out whether these things are true." No matter how much one respects a pastor or teacher, that person is still just a human being and is therefore fallible. Do not make the mistake of putting him on a pedestal or thinking of him as some sort of hero who can't make mistakes. CHECK OUT what he says. Some pastors and teachers will "hide behind the cross" when they speak from the pulpit as though that will make him speak "ex cathedra," as though he could not make a mistake while being so protected. That is FALSE, and one who makes such a claim is lying to himself and to his people! A pastor needs to admit he is just a man, do the best he can to study out matters before teaching others, and then humbly stand before his people, declaring God's Word and not their own.
There are usually more than just two choices. Only people who are limited to dichotomous thinking believe that it's always "either ... or." Only arguments that can be so arranged into "p" and "~p" ("not p") are truly dichotomous. Some make the error of thinking they have defined a "~p" to their "p" argument only to find that their argument has some portion lacking that defines it as a different argument "q," that is almost the opposite of "p" but not truly in all conditions.

Although they are only fiction, the Star Trek series are good about getting people to see outside of the dichotomous box! Often, the captains of the various series would be faced with some dilemma of seemingly two choices, neither being favorable. However, they would not rest until they had discovered a THIRD choice. We tend to believe we've set up an "either ... or" scenario, but we are seldom correct. In your statement above, there is at least one other possibility of which you have not considered. What if both Yeshua` and Paul did NOT say that we would be "raptured before the tribulation?" In fact, I can't think of one place in Scripture in which EITHER of them said such a thing!

So, I put this to you as a challenge: Show me one place in which Yeshua` said that we would be "raptured before the tribulation." Then, separately, show me one place in which Paul said that we would be "raptured before the tribulation." I don't believe you can legitimately find them because I don't believe they exist!
I've already covered this point. Please review the above.
No, in that you are right. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is NOT talking about the "churches" or "ministers" falling away. Paul was talking about the Jews falling away from Torah! The Greek word in this passage translated as "sin" or "lawlessness" is "anomias" and means "no-law." Specifically, according to the context, it means "no-Law" or "no-Torah." To whom would that be important if not to a Jew? In Gentile circles, even among those who call themselves "Christian," who would CARE if one did not believe in or follow the Torah? It's important that we remember that the Book of Books - the Bible - was written by Isra'elis to Isra'elis about the God of Isra'el, YHWH, the father of the Messiah, who also was an Isra'eli!

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