TRUTH

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mjrhealth

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Its amazing how this,

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

is always wriiten whcih oposses, contradicts what Christ said,

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Why cant the religious see, how all "thier" traditions make all teh work that Christ has done null and void, for they "choose", to do the work themselves.

When Jesus comes they wil all see their foolshness and there will be many tears for all those wasted years serving man instead of God, as if any church can save you.

Fear keeps so many in bondage, let me be excomunicated i cannot think of a beter place to be, dependent on Jesus instead of me or man.

In all His love
 

neophyte

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Wow. Saying that the Protestant belief system is a 'book alone' system is about as erroneous and ignorant as the folks long ago saying the world was flat. As with those people, I suspect you say this just because you lack the correct information. Unlike them, however, you have the very easy means of finding out the correct information, you just seem to be choosing not to.
And quite frankly it's just nonsensical to say that since nowhere in the Bible does it say 'look somewhere else for God's truth', it must mean we should look somewhere else. The also doesn't say not to eat lawnmowers, but I don't see rational people claiming that must mean to be Christians we should go out and chow down.
The simple fact is, you are trying to discredit our beliefs by arguing a negative. It a complete non sequitur, and does not hold up to inspection.
Even a little digging into what Protestants really believe shows a different story to what you represent above. We hold scripture as the highest authority short of God actually appearing in front of us and speaking...simply because it IS God speaking directly to us...he gave us the very words in that book, which means that every single one is essential to our faith and understanding. To dismiss any of the Bible is to dismiss the very message God has given to us. So yeah, we hold the Bible as highest authority. But 'book only'? No. We recognise that ALL teaching, based and backed up by scripture, is beneficial...why bother going to Church or groups otherwise? We also recognise the Holy Spirit...we kind of think He has a pretty huge role in our lives...guiding, rebuking, growing, teaching.

Look, I don't hate Catholics, and I certainly don't like how they get bashed often. But I will not take a Catholic defaming my faith with nothing more than spurious arguments. If you want to talk about how you think my beliefs are off, fine, but come to me with valid arguments that you can back up with scripture.

As a Catholic I believe everything that Jesus taught us through both Apostolic Tradition and the Holy Bible.
Yes, I'm well aware of your form of Christianity , I once belonged to a non-denominational Baptist church.Believe me I know your Protestant religion, I also know my Catholic faith which contains the "Fullness of the Christian Faith" and I believe everything Jesus taught us including the following
Luke 10:16, Jesus gave all of His power and authority to only His apostles, you and other Protestants refuse to understand that verse as Jesus intended. Jesus taught the apostles for "all generations not only for the 1st century Christians that is why He commanded His apostles to go out into the whole world [ Universal/ Catholic] and teach them all that He taught them and ordaining only those that qualify [ Matt. 28:18-20 ]. ordination of priests and bishops [ 1 Tim. 5:22, Acts 13:3, Titus 1: 5, 2 Cor. 5:20, Heb.5:1, Heb. 2: 7 ] Apostles passing on ordiation/ successors Acts 13:3, 14:22, 1:24-26 and Titus 1:5 ] only the Catholic/EOC is Apostolic [ Eph.2:19-20 ] Of course there are many more verses that support Catholic Teaching on ,for example, when Jesus gave not only His Authority to His Apostles as described in Luke 10:16 but also His Authority to His Apostles the gift of forgiving and retaining sins as found here in John 20:23., more verses that support Catholic Teaching can be supplied . must rush off now.
 

Rach1370

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As a Catholic I believe everything that Jesus taught us through both Apostolic Tradition and the Holy Bible.
Yes, I'm well aware of your form of Christianity , I once belonged to a non-denominational Baptist church.Believe me I know your Protestant religion, I also know my Catholic faith which contains the "Fullness of the Christian Faith"

You say you 'know my form of Christianity' and yet everything that you've said makes it clean you do not.


and I believe everything Jesus taught us including the following
Luke 10:16, Jesus gave all of His power and authority to only His apostles, you and other Protestants refuse to understand that verse as Jesus intended. Jesus taught the apostles for "all generations not only for the 1st century Christians that is why He commanded His apostles to go out into the whole world [ Universal/ Catholic] and teach them all that He taught them and ordaining only those that qualify [ Matt. 28:18-20 ]. ordination of priests and bishops [ 1 Tim. 5:22, Acts 13:3, Titus 1: 5, 2 Cor. 5:20, Heb.5:1, Heb. 2: 7 ] Apostles passing on ordiation/ successors Acts 13:3, 14:22, 1:24-26 and Titus 1:5 ] only the Catholic/EOC is Apostolic [ Eph.2:19-20 ] Of course there are many more verses that support Catholic Teaching on ,for example, when Jesus gave not only His Authority to His Apostles as described in Luke 10:16 but also His Authority to His Apostles the gift of forgiving and retaining sins as found here in John 20:23., more verses that support Catholic Teaching can be supplied . must rush off now.


And what you don't seem to understand (I will not say "what Catholics don't understand" as unlike you, I don't make wild sweeping statements that are simply untrue or unsubstantiated)...is that there is a marked difference between the eye witnesses chosen by God to witness the life and message of Christ, and all of us that have come after. We see in scripture, that God has given the 12 apostles 12 thrones over which they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. They were given gifts and authority that we today do not have. I'm not saying that God never chooses to act through us with healings and casting out of demons...that does still happen now, but not on the scale of that of the apostles. They were the ones chosen to spend time with Jesus, learning from him, watching him, witnessing him. And when it came time for them to head out and preach for him, they knew that they would come to horrible ends for their Lord...and yet they never faltered in their steps. These men were special, and the simple fact is that while all of us can go out with the knowledge and strength of God, we will never have what they did....a first hand account of Christ as he lived this life and died on that cross...rising again. They SAW all that, and that is something we take on faith. There will never be another 12, not unless Jesus decides to do a 'do over', which obviously will never happen. Yet while we see all that about them, we know that even those men were not perfect. We see in scripture that Peter fell even after receiving the Holy Spirit and taking the lead of the Apostles. We know them to be imperfect, and if the eye witnesses of Jesus' gospel are, I must also question the generation who came after them. So I wonder why you would happily bump 'tradition' up onto the same level with a book who was written by the Spirit. You may not be meaning to, but you are giving a historic game of Chinese whispers the same kudos as God's own letter to us.
And yes, my word we are to have Pastors and such teaching, missionary's taking the word out...even to their own neighbourhoods! But we do not take any more authority than scripture affords us. Just because I can trace back staunch Christians in my family for 10 generations...even if they have written their wisdom down, I do not head out and start preaching those things like they have come straight from God. If they don't match up with the Bible...that which we KNOW comes from God, we are false teachers. That's a fairly hairy thing to become, according to scripture. So when I say that the RCC's tendancy to rely on 'tradition' makes me uncomfortable, it is with biblical, rational and spiritual insight on the subject. Relying on man will always...always, lead to deaths door...one way or the other.
 

Selene

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Its amazing how this,

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

is always wriiten whcih oposses, contradicts what Christ said,

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Why cant the religious see, how all "thier" traditions make all teh work that Christ has done null and void, for they "choose", to do the work themselves.

When Jesus comes they wil all see their foolshness and there will be many tears for all those wasted years serving man instead of God, as if any church can save you.

Fear keeps so many in bondage, let me be excomunicated i cannot think of a beter place to be, dependent on Jesus instead of me or man.

In all His love

There are two types of traditions spoken of in the Bible. The first one is man-made traditions. As you can see from the biblical verses that you quoted, Jesus was condemning the traditions of the Pharisees.

The other"tradition" spoken about in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is clearly not man-made. Why? Because St. Paul tells us to "hold fast" to these traditions. These traditions that St. Paul told us to hold fast did not come from the Pharisees or any man. It came from the Holy Spirit. Why else did St. Paul tells us to hold on to these traditions? He never said to let go of them.
 

neophyte

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You say you 'know my form of Christianity' and yet everything that you've said makes it clean you do not.





And what you don't seem to understand ( I will not say "what Catholics don't understand" as unlike you, I don't make wild sweeping statements that are simply untrue or unsubstantiated)...is that there is a marked difference between the eye witnesses chosen by God to witness the life and message of Christ, and all of us that have come after. We see in scripture, that God has given the 12 apostles 12 thrones over which they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. They were given gifts and authority that we today do not have. I'm not saying that God never chooses to act through us with healings and casting out of demons...that does still happen now, but not on the scale of that of the apostles. They were the ones chosen to spend time with Jesus, learning from him, watching him, witnessing him. And when it came time for them to head out and preach for him, they knew that they would come to horrible ends for their Lord...and yet they never faltered in their steps. These men were special, and the simple fact is that while all of us can go out with the knowledge and strength of God, we will never have what they did....a first hand account of Christ as he lived this life and died on that cross...rising again. They SAW all that, and that is something we take on faith. There will never be another 12, not unless Jesus decides to do a 'do over', which obviously will never happen. Yet while we see all that about them, we know that even those men were not perfect. We see in scripture that Peter fell even after receiving the Holy Spirit and taking the lead of the Apostles. We know them to be imperfect, and if the eye witnesses of Jesus' gospel are, I must also question the generation who came after them. So I wonder why you would happily bump 'tradition' up onto the same level with a book who was written by the Spirit. You may not be meaning to, but you are giving a historic game of Chinese whispers the same kudos as God's own letter to us.
And yes, my word we are to have Pastors and such teaching, missionary's taking the word out...even to their own neighbourhoods! But we do not take any more authority than scripture affords us. Just because I can trace back staunch Christians in my family for 10 generations...even if they have written their wisdom down, I do not head out and start preaching those things like they have come straight from God. If they don't match up with the Bible...that which we KNOW comes from God, we are false teachers. That's a fairly hairy thing to become, according to scripture. So when I say that the RCC's tendancy to rely on 'tradition' makes me uncomfortable, it is with biblical, rational and spiritual insight on the subject. Relying on man will always...always, lead to deaths door...one way or the other.

Rach, Selene in the above post gives an excellent explanation of a few of the misunderstandings that you have with Catholic teaching [.i.e., Traditions.]
I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Holy Bible [ e.g., "faith alone " ] inconsistenly selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions [ e.g., the Canon of the Bible ],Protestantism leans too much on mere 'traditions of men'[ every denom/non-denomination stems from one Founder's vision. As soon as teo or more of these contradict each other , error is neccessarily present ] Protestantism is inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history [ e.g., " Scripture Alone " ] , Protestatism compromised morally [ e.g., contraception in 1930;, divorce], and unbiblical schismatic, anarchial, and relativistic. Of course I don't think Protestantism is all bad but the deficiencies are quite a few in number, As a Catholic following Catholic teaching I have to believe Protestants that have been baptised, follow the Nicene Creed, are Chalcedonia Protestants as Christian brothers and sisters in Christ.
 

Rex

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2 Thes 2

[sup]13 [/sup]But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, [sup]14 [/sup]to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
[sup]16 [/sup]Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, [sup]17 [/sup]comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.


Lets take a look, the first thing I see is "whether by word or our epistle" it would only seem natural that by word the tradition of salvation first leaps in to the world.
These epistles we know from what has been recovered out number any other event in human history. To say it another way the letters that make the NT were every where. No other event in history has been preserved in letter more closely to the event in such numbers. You would like to credit the RCC for preserving and determining the cannon of the NT, I say who ever presided over the affair had a very easy job, this information was so wide spread it would have been imposable to hide alter or deny the validity of the NT. But men just can't resist resist official stamps of approval as well as determining the intent and heart of these letters, thus was born the RCC.

as Rach has been presenting to you neo we have the epistles the fullness the complete message of Jesus preserved by God in the letter.

sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
He called you by our gospel
for the obtaining of the glory
who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, [sup]17 [/sup]comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

I differ with Selene that the Spirit reveled the "traditions" you have held. That have taken you not into the freedom and knowledge of Christ, rejoicing in grace that has been given to those that believe on His message, the gift, but rather back into bondage.

The bondage I speak about is found in catechism 811 and 838 these imposed doctrines seek to enslave the works of the Holy Spirit and subject it to the will and and approval of men.The removing of the veil, that we may now be the temple, the dwelling place of God becoming in our flesh the Holy of Holys. Why would anyone ever take this privileged gift of God and place it back into the hands of another man is foolishness. For surly I tell you that those that have tasted and drank the waters of this well never thirst again. They become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. The living water, For if you had known who it is that said to you "give me a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water", not the water of the dead, not the water that the law could not deliver to everyman life, but living water threw one man fulfilling the law. He now owned overcame the death sentience that came from the law. that now He has written in His blood a new and everlasting convent, not of law but of faith in Him threw grace. And in this same manor only God breaths the breath of life in to a new man. He has come out from the Temple that He may now dwell with man, that the two become one just as Jesus carried the promise to Eve threw Mary in the weakness of her flesh, He also was delivered unto us the likeness of Himself whom conceived threw the Spirit with in this flesh the promise of eternal life.
In the weakness of our flesh, the curse of death has been lifted, bring sanctification to our flesh, purifying it, it now becomes the temple of God.

Your 811 and 838 stands in stark contrast to the promise found in Gen3 in which we now have the more certain word became flesh and dwelt among us in the written epistles nothing else need be added.
For this is the promise the message fulfilled.
Jer 31:33-34
Eze 11:17-19
 
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dragonfly

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Here is the literal translation of Matthew 16:18, from http://studybible.in...rlinear/matt 16

And I say to you that you are Peter, and upon this, the rock, I will build my assembly,
and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.


I don't see how the above can be taken out of the context of Matthew 7, where Jesus said (KJV) :

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28, 29 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.


If you, too, are astonished at Jesus' doctrine, then think carefully about what and who you believe.




Make sure you're not overlooking the wolves in sheep's clothing.
 

Selene

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Selene, where is this Aramaic text? It does not exist, does it? Since we do not have the Aramaic text, it is not proper to refer to it as proof of the Roman Catholic position. Why would the Roman Catholic Church resort to using something that we don't have?

Cephas is the aramaic word meaning "Rock." And we know that Christ called Peter "Cephas", not "Petros" How do we know? Because the evidence is found in the Gospel of John:

John 1:41-42 He first found his own brother Simon and told him, "We have found the Messiah (which is translated Anointed). Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas (which is translated Peter).

Could you show me your evidence that Christ spoke Greek and not Aramaic.
 

Axehead

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Cephas is the aramaic word meaning "Rock." And we know that Christ called Peter "Cephas", not "Petros" How do we know? Because the evidence is found in the Gospel of John:

John 1:41-42 He first found his own brother Simon and told him, "We have found the Messiah (which is translated Anointed). Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas (which is translated Peter).

Could you show me your evidence that Christ spoke Greek and not Aramaic.

You are the one making the claim about Peter. We are talking about what the New Testament was written in. We know that people in Jesus' day spoke, Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.
 

Rach1370

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Rach, Selene in the above post gives an excellent explanation of a few of the misunderstandings that you have with Catholic teaching [.i.e., Traditions.]

Again...you miss my point. The traditions Paul is speaking of will be found in scripture. We see the different apostles speaking of each other throughout their letters...supporting each other. But all that we need to know from their 'teachings', their 'traditions' is still found in the bible. Any other 'teachings' from them have been passed down by man....which brings me back to the fact that they are liable for misinterpretation, bias and mistakes. It's a simple fact...again, show me a man who has not made a mistake and perhaps I may consider your view. I'm not saying that we toss out these things that have come down from our Church fathers, but we must check what they say against scripture...just as the Bereans did. That is the only way to rule out any of those problems.

I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Holy Bible [ e.g., "faith alone " ] inconsistenly selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions [ e.g., the Canon of the Bible ],Protestantism leans too much on mere 'traditions of men'[ every denom/non-denomination stems from one Founder's vision. As soon as teo or more of these contradict each other , error is neccessarily present ] Protestantism is inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history [ e.g., " Scripture Alone " ] , Protestatism compromised morally [ e.g., contraception in 1930;, divorce], and unbiblical schismatic, anarchial, and relativistic. Of course I don't think Protestantism is all bad but the deficiencies are quite a few in number, As a Catholic following Catholic teaching I have to believe Protestants that have been baptised, follow the Nicene Creed, are Chalcedonia Protestants as Christian brothers and sisters in Christ.

Look...if you felt you needed to leave your Church for Catholicism, that's fine. I don't have a problem with Catholics in general. I recognise that many Catholics are Christians...lovely people who love Jesus. But while I'm open to discussing our 'differences' I will not tolerate you or anyone else saying that Protestants are not of the true faith. I believe that 'faith alone', through and of 'Christ alone' because of 'grace alone' to be the resounding and repeated truth of what scripture teaches...
You say that you feel we have basically butchered what the bible says, but I must question the very basis of that accusation. You say man's word is as high as Gods word. You place your Pope and Priests on pedestals, giving them royal robes, rings to kiss, and making the Pope at least, more authority than he has right to have...being a mere man. How many Popes through history have made mistakes? Big ones? My purpose here is not to dump on the Pope, even though I disagree with the position of it...its to prove that even your 'mouth piece of God' is a sinful, fallen man...liable to mistake. You are arguing for fallible man, and against our insistence that we rely on God's word. It simply does not make sense...biblical or logical.
And yes....I also acknowledge that Protestants are not perfect....I could point out several faults several denominations have almost instantly. But...going back to my original point...niether is the Catholic Church perfect, and I do not believe you have the right to claim "the only true Church" status...especially when the bible teaches that anyone who loves Jesus and has the Spirit, is elect and therefore of the body.
 
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aspen

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Look...if you felt you needed to leave your Church for Catholicism, that's fine. I don't have a problem with Catholics in general. I recognise that many Catholics are Christians...lovely people who love Jesus. But while I'm open to discussing our 'differences' I will not tolerate you or anyone else saying that Protestants are not of the true faith.

Agreed! And not saying this should matter to you, Rach, but the Pope agrees with your statement, as well.
 

Rex

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Look...if you felt you needed to leave your Church for Catholicism, that's fine. I don't have a problem with Catholics in general. I recognise that many Catholics are Christians...lovely people who love Jesus. But while I'm open to discussing our 'differences' I will not tolerate you or anyone else saying that Protestants are not of the true faith.
Is this the statement your referring to aspen?

Agreed! And not saying this should matter to you, Rach, but the Pope agrees with your statement, as well.


Would you care to elaborate on that statement. How does he differ from what the catechism teaches?

I understand enough about you to realize your trying to make peace.
But at what price?

Twisting the truth doesn't bring peace it bring a sword
 

Selene

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You are the one making the claim about Peter. We are talking about what the New Testament was written in. We know that people in Jesus' day spoke, Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.

No, we were never talking about the language of the New Testament. Don't you remember? This is what you posted in Post #39:



Peter told us who the Rock was. "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God".

What is built upon the Rock are the Apostles and prophets and the Church". We are not the foundation, we are built on the foundation.

There are four passages in the New Testament where both the foundation and the superstructure of the church are contained in the same context.

The first is Matt 16:18 - where the "foundation" is the "rock" and the "superstructure" is the "church".

Then 1 Cor 3:9-11 presents the church as "God's building" and then as the "temple of God." Here Paul boldly discusses the "foundation" by saying "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Does your Bible say "can no man lay?"

Eph 2:19-22 presents the church as "the household of God," a "holy temple" and a "habitation of God." And in the same verses he presents this body of people as "being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone..."

"Foundation of the apostles and prophets" - the "of" is [background=yellow]genitive[/background] of possession not locative of position.

In other words, Jesus was Paul's foundation, and Peter's foundation and John's and James' and Andrew's and all the other apostles.

The apostles are not part of the foundation! They are built upon that Foundation.

The Holy Spirit is saying the "apostle's and prophet's foundation (which is Jesus Christ)".

When Paul presented the foundation claimed by all the apostles and prophets - then as an appositive statement he explains who that foundation is: it is "Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone."

Finally, I Peter 2:4-8 this apostle presents Jesus as the "living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious" which is Jesus Himself. Then Peter quotes the three major "stone prophecies of Psalms 118, Isaiah 8:14and Isaiah 28:16 and relates them all to Jesus.

Therefore the "rock" upon which Jesus built his "church" was indeed Himself as the fulfillment of all redemptive purposes of God accomplished by Jesus Christ.

Axehead

Thus, as you can see, it was never about the language of the New Testament that we were discussing.
 

epostle1

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Again...you miss my point. The traditions Paul is speaking of will be found in scripture.

Not necessarily.

Oral Tradition that is mentioned in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 3:14-15; 2 Thess 2:15, etc. does not refer to orally transmitting the message of the Bible. It refers to the Oral Tradition apart from the Written Tradition (the Bible).

The Oral Tradition has not been corrupted and we know this for three reasons:

1) Oral Tradition and Written Tradition compliment one another and not contradict each other. But not everything is written in the Bible, according to the Bible itself (i.e. John 21:25; Acts 20:35). Thus since not everything is in the written record if Oral Tradition says something that is not explicit in the Written Tradition that does not make the Oral Tradition wrong. It only means that that subject was not mentioned in the Written Record.

Oral Tradition was a long time aspect of the religious life of the Jews. They recognized the existence of Divine Oral Tradition. There are some passages in the New Testament, for example, that refer to the Divine Revelation of the Old Testament but deal with items not in the written Old Testament.

A) Matthew 2:23 And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

B ) Matthew 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

C) 1Cor.10:4 and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.


It is obvious the Apostles knew and believed in a Divine Oral Tradition.

2) The importance of Oral Tradition is great. This is seen by the fact that St. Paul tells us to listen to and obey Tradition (that is Divine Tradition, not human customs) as Scripture. He even tells us that people who do not follow this Divine Oral Tradition are to be shunned (2 Thess 3:14).
All the possible teachings of Jesus cannot possible be placed into one book and the Bible itself affirms. Also, there were no New Testament Scriptures in the early decades of the Church. All that existed was the Oral Tradition of the Apostles. Even after the letters of the New Testament began to be written and passed around it was not until the 4th century that the Church put in place exactly which letters were to be considered Scripture and which were not. How the bishops made that decision was, in part, on whether the letter in question was consistent with the Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles.

Oral Tradition ALWAYS precedes Written Tradition. Written Tradition (the bible) is a small subset of the larger Oral Tradition. This has always been the case - in the Old Testament and in the New Testament times.

3) I proper concern is whether or not this Divine Oral Tradition is passed on from generation to generation accurately. Well, God is not so cruel that He would not account for some way to preserve His Word. His Word, after all is life. We must have a way to preserve the Word of God. God did that through a Magisterium protected by the Holy Spirit. God has ALWAYS had a Magisterium. In the Old Testament times we had the Chair of Moses that Jesus mentions in Matt 23:2. For the New Covenant a new chair of authority was put into place --- just as was done with the previous four covenants in Old Testament times. This new chair was and is the Chair of Peter (Matt 16, Isa 22:21-23).

But how to we check to be sure, if we do not have the faith to trust God's Magisterium? Well, the same way that we can know for sure that the Bible we read today is the what was actually written in the First Century -- by comparing what we have today with the written record of history.
In the case of the Bible, we compare what we have today with extant manuscripts from as close to the first century as possible.
In the case of the Oral Tradition, the same is true. We look to extant manuscripts of sermons, essays, Church documents, etc. from the Church Fathers that affirm that what we believe today is the same things that they believed then.
There is NO doctrine of the Catholic Church that cannot be traced to the early Church. Over the centuries our understanding of doctrine has matured from that of the infant Church, but the doctrine remains unchanged. We know this because we can prove it with documentary evidence.


We see the different apostles speaking of each other throughout their letters...supporting each other. But all that we need to know from their 'teachings', their 'traditions' is still found in the bible. Any other 'teachings' from them have been passed down by man....which brings me back to the fact that they are liable for misinterpretation, bias and mistakes. It's a simple fact...again, show me a man who has not made a mistake and perhaps I may consider your view. I'm not saying that we toss out these things that have come down from our Church fathers, but we must check what they say against scripture...just as the Bereans did. That is the only way to rule out any of those problems.

That's a very good idea. Check what the Early Church Fathers said against scripture. And if it measures up, you should ask yourself if you believe the same things as they did.
http://www.scripture...ml#tradition-I

Look...if you felt you needed to leave your Church for Catholicism, that's fine. I don't have a problem with Catholics in general. I recognise that many Catholics are Christians...lovely people who love Jesus. But while I'm open to discussing our 'differences' I will not tolerate you or anyone else saying that Protestants are not of the true faith. I believe that 'faith alone', through and of 'Christ alone' because of 'grace alone' to be the resounding and repeated truth of what scripture teaches...

Nobody said Protestants are not of the true faith.
You say that you feel we have basically butchered what the bible says, but I must question the very basis of that accusation. You say man's word is as high as Gods word.

Nobody is saying that.



You place your Pope and Priests on pedestals, giving them royal robes, rings to kiss, and making the Pope at least, more authority than he has right to have...being a mere man.

You are objecting to cultural influence, style, customs, and confusing pedestals with respect. The Papacy must have started somewhere.

We love our Pope and our priests, for the office that they hold. Priests don't often wear their collar in public because they don't like getting spit on.

How many Popes through history have made mistakes? Big ones? My purpose here is not to dump on the Pope, even though I disagree with the position of it...its to prove that even your 'mouth piece of God' is a sinful, fallen man...liable to mistake. You are arguing for fallible man, and against our insistence that we rely on God's word. It simply does not make sense...biblical or logical.

John 11:51-52 - in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

more here:


And yes....I also acknowledge that Protestants are not perfect....I could point out several faults several denominations have almost instantly. But...going back to my original point...niether is the Catholic Church perfect, and I do not believe you have the right to claim "the only true Church" status...especially when the bible teaches that anyone who loves Jesus and has the Spirit, is elect and therefore of the body.
It's not a question of being perfect, it's a question about teaching the truth. Paul teaches that 'the body' is united by the Eucharist in 1 Cor. 10 and 11.
Nobody is saying the Catholic Church is the "only true Church". The Church formally and officially recognizes other churches as a means to salvation. What upsets you is being told you are in a theologically deficient system. Anyone who loves Jesus has the Spirit, is elect and therefore of the body, but not everyone who loves Jesus has the guarantee they will teach faith and morals without error binding on all believers. In your system, you do that with just you and the Holy Spirit. This premise is not in scripture. 4/5 of Protestant teaching on baptism opposes what the Holy Spirit tells you individually. That is a deficient system and I am using the word cautiously.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
 

Rach1370

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Ok...your post is quite long, and I don't have the time to reply to it, nor do I believe that an epically long reply would benefit anyway! So I'll just try and boil it down!

Not necessarily.

Oral Tradition that is mentioned in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 3:14-15; 2 Thess 2:15, etc. does not refer to orally transmitting the message of the Bible. It refers to the Oral Tradition apart from the Written Tradition (the Bible).

The Oral Tradition has not been corrupted and we know this for three reasons:

1) Oral Tradition and Written Tradition compliment one another and not contradict each other. But not everything is written in the Bible, according to the Bible itself (i.e. John 21:25; Acts 20:35). Thus since not everything is in the written record if Oral Tradition says something that is not explicit in the Written Tradition that does not make the Oral Tradition wrong. It only means that that subject was not mentioned in the Written Record.

Oral Tradition was a long time aspect of the religious life of the Jews. They recognized the existence of Divine Oral Tradition. There are some passages in the New Testament, for example, that refer to the Divine Revelation of the Old Testament but deal with items not in the written Old Testament.

A) Matthew 2:23 And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

B ) Matthew 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

C) 1Cor.10:4 and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.


It is obvious the Apostles knew and believed in a Divine Oral Tradition.

I have to disagree with how you interpret 1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:15. All these verses are Paul talking about them upholding the things he has taught them, either through his visits to them, or his writings to them. We see both in scripture. So far nothing here suggests we have leave to believe that anything we are told is 'from God because it's been done for generations'.

Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
(John 21:25 ESV)


John tells us here that not everything Jesus did or said has been written down. He does not go on to say that we are given leave to suppose anything we 'hear' about Jesus is therefore factual, just left out of scripture. Remember all those people who love to try and claim that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene? It's this very situation and false claims that requires us to rely on what scripture teaches and not what comes through man.

In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
(Acts 20:35 ESV)


'Remembering the words of the Lord Jesus' is hardly proof that the bible tells us to rely as much on word of man, as that of the word of God. Especially considering he goes on to repeat a teaching that is clearly found in scripture..."it is better to give than receive"...yes, clearly a teaching of Christ.

I have no doubt that God can preserve his word in any way he chooses. But the simple fact is that he has chosen to give us the bible. Now, if Oral Tradition is directly backed up by scripture, then I have zero problem with it, but anything that cannot be found confirmed and affirmed in scripture must be viewed as suspect. It's foolishness to think we can rely on word of man equally as the word of God.

2) The importance of Oral Tradition is great. This is seen by the fact that St. Paul tells us to listen to and obey Tradition (that is Divine Tradition, not human customs) as Scripture. He even tells us that people who do not follow this Divine Oral Tradition are to be shunned (2 Thess 3:14).
All the possible teachings of Jesus cannot possible be placed into one book and the Bible itself affirms. Also, there were no New Testament Scriptures in the early decades of the Church. All that existed was the Oral Tradition of the Apostles. Even after the letters of the New Testament began to be written and passed around it was not until the 4th century that the Church put in place exactly which letters were to be considered Scripture and which were not. How the bishops made that decision was, in part, on whether the letter in question was consistent with the Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles.

Oral Tradition ALWAYS precedes Written Tradition. Written Tradition (the bible) is a small subset of the larger Oral Tradition. This has always been the case - in the Old Testament and in the New Testament times.

Uhmmmm.....

If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 ESV)

This letter...as in...2 Thessalonians...as in...the bible.
And no...the bible certainly does not affirm that other teachings of Jesus is to be found elsewhere. The bible is THE word of God...not A word of God.

Here's the thing...and I wonder if it's this point that is providing some problem here. When the Apostles taught these things to the people then....naturally they spoke them. It's sort of how people communicate primarily...they speak. So sure...in that case maybe we could say that oral tradition came first. But you what, when the disciples...the eye witnesses...those people whom God the Spirit worked through directly to give his message of Christ to the world...when they died or were martyred, the most reliable and therefore primary way to assure themselves of what they were teaching, following, believing, was what the apostles had taught, was to read their words directly....the words of God as he spoke through them. Any other words that did not come through the apostles and from God, is just opinions, musings and ideas. All liable to human mistakes...especially over time.

3) I proper concern is whether or not this Divine Oral Tradition is passed on from generation to generation accurately. Well, God is not so cruel that He would not account for some way to preserve His Word. His Word, after all is life. We must have a way to preserve the Word of God. God did that through a Magisterium protected by the Holy Spirit. God has ALWAYS had a Magisterium. In the Old Testament times we had the Chair of Moses that Jesus mentions in Matt 23:2. For the New Covenant a new chair of authority was put into place --- just as was done with the previous four covenants in Old Testament times. This new chair was and is the Chair of Peter (Matt 16, Isa 22:21-23).

Yeah, see, this is where I just flatly disagree with you. God gave us scripture. He gave that to us through all the apostles, not just Peter. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that Peter was your first Pope. Sure, he was the head of the Apostles, but as I already mentioned to Neo, how the Pope presents himself and how Peter knew Christ would call the 'head' apostle to behave are different. Peter knew that to be a Christ like leader, he was to put himself last...to serve people...not give himself a throne to sit on, a ring to kiss, welcoming devotion. He made sure all the attention was for Jesus, none for himself. And he certainly didn't call himself infallible. I don't hate Catholics, but truly...I believe that Peter would have some serious rebuking to do over the position of Pope...especially after he just witnesses Jesus tear the curtain between God and man....the Pope is not needed. Just man, on his knees, loving and worshipping Jesus.
 
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neophyte

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Ok...your post is quite long, and I don't have the time to reply to it, nor do I believe that an epically long reply would benefit anyway! So I'll just try and boil it down!



I have to disagree with how you interpret 1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:15. All these verses are Paul talking about them upholding the things he has taught them, either through his visits to them, or his writings to them. We see both in scripture. So far nothing here suggests we have leave to believe that anything we are told is 'from God because it's been done for generations'.

Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
(John 21:25 ESV)


John tells us here that not everything Jesus did or said has been written down. He does not go on to say that we are given leave to suppose anything we 'hear' about Jesus is therefore factual, just left out of scripture. Remember all those people who love to try and claim that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene? It's this very situation and false claims that requires us to rely on what scripture teaches and not what comes through man.

In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
(Acts 20:35 ESV)


'Remembering the words of the Lord Jesus' is hardly proof that the bible tells us to rely as much on word of man, as that of the word of God. Especially considering he goes on to repeat a teaching that is clearly found in scripture..."it is better to give than receive"...yes, clearly a teaching of Christ.

I have no doubt that God can preserve his word in any way he chooses. But the simple fact is that he has chosen to give us the bible. Now, if Oral Tradition is directly backed up by scripture, then I have zero problem with it, but anything that cannot be found confirmed and affirmed in scripture must be viewed as suspect. It's foolishness to think we can rely on word of man equally as the word of God.



Uhmmmm.....

If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 ESV)

This letter...as in...2 Thessalonians...as in...the bible.
And no...the bible certainly does not affirm that other teachings of Jesus is to be found elsewhere. The bible is THE word of God...not A word of God.

Here's the thing...and I wonder if it's this point that is providing some problem here. When the Apostles taught these things to the people then....naturally they spoke them. It's sort of how people communicate primarily...they speak. So sure...in that case maybe we could say that oral tradition came first. But you what, when the disciples...the eye witnesses...those people whom God the Spirit worked through directly to give his message of Christ to the world...when they died or were martyred, the most reliable and therefore primary way to assure themselves of what they were teaching, following, believing, was what the apostles had taught, was to read their words directly....the words of God as he spoke through them. Any other words that did not come through the apostles and from God, is just opinions, musings and ideas. All liable to human mistakes...especially over time.



Yeah, see, this is where I just flatly disagree with you. God gave us scripture. He gave that to us through all the apostles, not just Peter. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that Peter was your first Pope. Sure, he was the head of the Apostles, but as I already mentioned to Neo, how the Pope presents himself and how Peter knew Christ would call the 'head' apostle to behave are different. Peter knew that to be a Christ like leader, he was to put himself last...to serve people...not give himself a throne to sit on, a ring to kiss, welcoming devotion. He made sure all the attention was for Jesus, none for himself. And he certainly didn't call himself infallible. I don't hate Catholics, but truly...I believe that Peter would have some serious rebuking to do over the position of Pope...especially after he just witnesses Jesus tear the curtain between God and man....the Pope is not needed. Just man, on his knees, loving and worshipping Jesus.

Rach, the early Church along with it's apostles and their faithful disagree with your new found Protestant individual interpretation of Holy Scripture-


[background=#fff]

the fact that after the curtain was torn in half--after the Resurrection--Jesus proceeded to appoint clergy and establish a Church? Christ's sacrifice and the tearing of the curtain symbolize several things:
1) The Jewish economy (the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant) has been done away with.
2) Our high priest (Jesus) has the right to enter the heavenly tabernacle.
3) We approach God through Jesus and the Christian economy rather than through the Jewish or Mosaic economy.
4) That heaven has now been opened to receive the saints, who were previously kept at Abraham's bosom.
What itdoesn't imply is the demise ofall rituals (or else we would not have baptism and the Eucharist) or that there will be no priests in the Law of Christ/New Covenant way of approaching God. It simply signifies the passing away of the Jewish economy.


Answered by: Jimmy Akin

I refute your verses with this explanation from the apostolic teachings as received from Jesus -

In your verse of 1 Cor.11:2 Paul comments the faithful for maintaing the Apostolic Tradition that they havereceived. The Oral Word is preserved and protected by the H S.

2 Thess. 2:5 – Paul yet again refers the Thessalonians to the previous teachings they received from Paul when he taught them orally. These oral teachings are no less significant than the written teachings.
2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.
2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.
2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.
2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul tells them they already know how to imitate the elders. He is referring them to the tradition they have learned by his oral preaching and example.

Isa.59:21, Isaiah prophesisies of a living voice to hand on the Word of God not " A " Word of God to generations by mouth, not by a book. This is either a false prophesy, or it has been fulfilled by His Church of the Apostles.
Rach, I never meant to say that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize that many Non-Catholics are not saved, forgive me if I gave that unintentional remark.[/background]


Rach, the early Church along with it's apostles and their faithful disagree with your new found Protestant individual interpretation of Holy Scripture-




[background=#fff]the fact that after the curtain was torn in half--after the Resurrection--Jesus proceeded to appoint clergy and establish a Church? Christ's sacrifice and the tearing of the curtain symbolize several things:
1) The Jewish economy (the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant) has been done away with.
2) Our high priest (Jesus) has the right to enter the heavenly tabernacle.
3) We approach God through Jesus and the Christian economy rather than through the Jewish or Mosaic economy.
4) That heaven has now been opened to receive the saints, who were previously kept at Abraham's bosom.
What itdoesn't imply is the demise ofall rituals (or else we would not have baptism and the Eucharist) or that there will be no priests in the Law of Christ/New Covenant way of approaching God. It simply signifies the passing away of the Jewish economy.


Answered by: Jimmy Akin

I refute your verses with this explanation from the apostolic teachings as received from Jesus -

In your verse of 1 Cor.11:2 Paul comments the faithful for maintaing the Apostolic Tradition that they havereceived. The Oral Word is preserved and protected by the H S.

2 Thess. 2:5 – Paul yet again refers the Thessalonians to the previous teachings they received from Paul when he taught them orally. These oral teachings are no less significant than the written teachings.
2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.
2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.
2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.
2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul tells them they already know how to imitate the elders. He is referring them to the tradition they have learned by his oral preaching and example.

Isa.59:21, Isaiah prophesisies of a living voice to hand on the Word of God not " A " Word of God to generations by mouth, not by a book. This is either a false prophesy, or it has been fulfilled by His Church of the Apostles.
Rach, I never meant to say that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize that many Non-Catholics are not saved, forgive me if I gave that unintentional remark.[/background]

Rach, I reprinted most of the verese here in larger print-

2 Thess. 2:5 – Paul yet again refers the Thessalonians to the previous teachings they received from Paul when he taught them orally. These oral teachings are no less significant than the written teachings.
2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.
2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.
2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.
2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul tells them they already know how to imitate the elders. He is referring them to the tradition they have learned by his oral preaching and example.
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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Ok...your post is quite long, and I don't have the time to reply to it, nor do I believe that an epically long reply would benefit anyway! So I'll just try and boil it down!



I have to disagree with how you interpret 1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:15. All these verses are Paul talking about them upholding the things he has taught them, either through his visits to them, or his writings to them. We see both in scripture. So far nothing here suggests we have leave to believe that anything we are told is 'from God because it's been done for generations'.

Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
(John 21:25 ESV)


John tells us here that not everything Jesus did or said has been written down. He does not go on to say that we are given leave to suppose anything we 'hear' about Jesus is therefore factual, just left out of scripture. Remember all those people who love to try and claim that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene? It's this very situation and false claims that requires us to rely on what scripture teaches and not what comes through man.

In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
(Acts 20:35 ESV)


'Remembering the words of the Lord Jesus' is hardly proof that the bible tells us to rely as much on word of man, as that of the word of God. Especially considering he goes on to repeat a teaching that is clearly found in scripture..."it is better to give than receive"...yes, clearly a teaching of Christ.

I have no doubt that God can preserve his word in any way he chooses. But the simple fact is that he has chosen to give us the bible. Now, if Oral Tradition is directly backed up by scripture, then I have zero problem with it, but anything that cannot be found confirmed and affirmed in scripture must be viewed as suspect. It's foolishness to think we can rely on word of man equally as the word of God.



Uhmmmm.....

If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 ESV)

This letter...as in...2 Thessalonians...as in...the bible.
And no...the bible certainly does not affirm that other teachings of Jesus is to be found elsewhere. The bible is THE word of God...not A word of God.

Here's the thing...and I wonder if it's this point that is providing some problem here. When the Apostles taught these things to the people then....naturally they spoke them. It's sort of how people communicate primarily...they speak. So sure...in that case maybe we could say that oral tradition came first. But you what, when the disciples...the eye witnesses...those people whom God the Spirit worked through directly to give his message of Christ to the world...when they died or were martyred, the most reliable and therefore primary way to assure themselves of what they were teaching, following, believing, was what the apostles had taught, was to read their words directly....the words of God as he spoke through them. Any other words that did not come through the apostles and from God, is just opinions, musings and ideas. All liable to human mistakes...especially over time.



Yeah, see, this is where I just flatly disagree with you. God gave us scripture. He gave that to us through all the apostles, not just Peter. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that Peter was your first Pope. Sure, he was the head of the Apostles, but as I already mentioned to Neo, how the Pope presents himself and how Peter knew Christ would call the 'head' apostle to behave are different. Peter knew that to be a Christ like leader, he was to put himself last...to serve people...not give himself a throne to sit on, a ring to kiss, welcoming devotion. He made sure all the attention was for Jesus, none for himself. And he certainly didn't call himself infallible. I don't hate Catholics, but truly...I believe that Peter would have some serious rebuking to do over the position of Pope...especially after he just witnesses Jesus tear the curtain between God and man....the Pope is not needed. Just man, on his knees, loving and worshipping Jesus.

Excellent post, Rach. You bring out very important things regarding God's Word to us.

I have also shown that there is no evidence from the Scriptures that Peter was ever in Rome let alone in Rome for 25 years. There is nothing in the Bible from any of the Apostles or Christians in Rome, mentioning Peter. Not once! We are being asked to believe something that the Scriptures do not support. I clearly show Peter could not have been in Rome.

Was Peter in Rome?

When Paul wrote Ephesians from Rome, and he mentioned the 5-fold ministry, he never mentioned the Pope.

Excerpt:
5. Catholic writers universally say that "Babylon" of I Peter 5:13 is Rome (which it isn't), and then generally deny that "Babylon" of Revelation 17:5 is Rome (which it is).

It seems more of a myth than anything else. A myth designed to support a man-made doctrine.
 

Rach1370

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The thing I just cannot understand is how rational people can try and convince themselves and others that word of man is as reliable as word of God.
Neo...you say that the bible proves that oral traditions is as important as written tradition (which I still strongly disagree on...the bible does not say it, in fact), but how on earth are you to know that what the apostles 'spoke' back then is what you're hearing now? You simply cannot...and as I've said again and again, we CAN know, for a fact, that a lot of this oral tradition is not what the apostles taught....thanks to scripture. I don't have the time to get into it, but yeah...quite a few of the RCC's 'traditions' are not backed by scripture...which in itself leads me to conclude that putting oral tradition above Gods word will be a mistake every single time. We can also know this by watching the OT Pharisees...sure, they 'kept' the OT, but how many of them added to them? Why? Out human sinfulness. It will happen EVERY time people try and rely on people, rather than in God alone.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
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Rach,

I used to believe the same way you do now. Then I realized that the Bible is comprised of human words, inspired by God; which are selected by humans to form the Bible. Since I trust that God inspired humans to select the cannon - it is not unreasonable that God also inspires and keeps safe the Tradition of the Church. There is nothing inherently different from written Tradition (Bible) and oral Tradition.