The Church is Not the Source of Truth

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epostle1

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Premise: The Church is Not the Source of Truth,


kicker counter argument: 1 Tim 3:15

Supporting arguments: for the premise: John 5:31 John 5:36 John 10:25

These verses do not disprove Tim 3:15. "Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is." source

John 10:37-38 John 15:24 Acts 2:22 Acts 10:38

These verses deal with the works that Jesus did as evidence that He is from God. Signs and wonders is proof that a person is called directly by God. None of them prove that "The Church is Not the Source of Truth" which contradicts 1 Tim 3:15

Scripture affirms (and Jesus affirms) that any message that comes from God through man must bear verification and show authentication from the Holy Spirit.

This is misleading. Scripture affirms that anyone called directly by God must be followed by signs and wonders. Scripture also affirms that the man of God must be either called directly by God, (followed by signs and wonders) or be ordained by the Church.


The Apostles and other New Testament prophets were teachers of truth and the same miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit authenticated their ministry and message. They were authenticated by God (the Holy Spirit) and not by man. I'll show some scriptures pertaining to the Apostles, later.

In Christian theology, Cessationism is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing, ceased being practiced early on in Church history. The opposite of Cessationism is Continuationism. (wikipedia) This might make an interesting thread on its own.

The Church is an organized visible fellowship. Because it is divine institution and dynamism, the Holy Spirit dwells in it, keeping it alive, keeping it true, and making it grow. The Spirit is the source of the life of the Church, but that life is the life of a body.

The body is made up of many members who are distinguished one from the other by functions for which they have a fixed structure. In the Body, the bishops have the function of teaching and guiding, and this task they perform through the power of the Spirit who transfuses the whole Body, making each member effective in his function.

The Body is one, 1 Cor 10:17 and so the episcopate is one, John 10:16 and the unity of the episcopate is achieved through solidarity with the prime source of Episcopal power, the Bishop of Rome. Matt. 16:19 In the Catholic vision the pope teaches in the name of the episcopate Matt. 16:19 and the episcopate teaches in the name of the Church Matt. 10:1, Matt. 10:40 and the Church teaches in the name of Christ, Acts 20:28 and Christ teaches in the name of God.

The Bread that we partake is ONE BREAD, it it not separate nor is the ONE BREAD confined to the restrictions of time.

The Church is an extension of the Incarnation united in the Eucharist. One reason we do not have ONE BODY is because we do not all partake of this ONE BREAD.

sad
 

Axehead

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Without the Head, the Body is dead, just an empy carton. But it is no surprise that men who want to gather people unto themselves and boast of a kingdom on earth would glorify the Church (minimizing Christ).

The bigger "kicker" is how a religious organization would confuse who the "pillar" of truth is and negate by their stance the preponderance of other truths in the Bible.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Everyone that is of the truth, hears whose voice?
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

When you take the whole counsel of God, you understand who the pillar and ground of the truth is.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I don't see any glorifying of the Church in the previous verses, or gathering men unto other men. But men that want to gather other men unto themselves must necessarily twist the Scriptures. We have living examples of this in many denominations and cults, today.

Anything that takes the focus off of Jesus Christ, should be a red flag to you. Many proclaim His name and use Him as a token to draw men unto themselves, but they don't really want you to take His words seriously, because they know you would stop following them.

Axehead
 

epostle1

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The gospel of Axehead states that we don't need a Church because Jesus does everything. The primary function of the Church is to teach the truth about Jesus, and the truth about humanity. To say that an organized fellowship takes away from Jesus is absurd.

All baptized believers belong to the Church Jesus founded, the problem is the varying degrees of separation that have occurred down through the centuries. Denying the divine characteristics (qualities, attributes) of the Church is self defeating. The Church is One, Holy, Universal, (Catholic) and Apostolic. These are also called the 4 marks of God. She could not possibly be a mere man made organization or she would never have survived.

Separated ecclesial communities bear these 4 marks as well, but in varying degrees. Some are missing one or two all together. They have decided, based on the vision on one man, that they have no need for one of these 4 marks, or partial elements of one or more of these marks. The Church admits that both sides were to blame for this tragedy 500 years ago. CCC817, 818, 819

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9,1:pG 13,732.

Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business. But like many complicated things, it can be simplified sufficiently well that even non-experts can get the gist of it. Here's what seems a fairly accurate but simplified summary of the issue: The break between Catholics and Protestants was either a tragic necessity (to use Jaroslav Pelikan's expression) or it was tragic because unnecessary.
 

Axehead

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The gospel of Axehead states that we don't need a Church because Jesus does everything.
Uh, Jesus certainly does everything and to Him be all the glory and honor, but a Head does need a Body. My point has always been that the RCC is a cult and not the Church of the Living God.

The primary function of the Church is to teach the truth about Jesus, and the truth about humanity. To say that an organized fellowship takes away from Jesus is absurd.

The greatest heist in history is the theft of the Headship of Christ via Matthew 16:18. Fortunately, the Lord's headship is still intact for those who look to Him completely.

These are also called the 4 marks of God. She could not possibly be a mere man made organization or she would never have survived.

Why that is naïve, indeed. Longevity is not the confirmatory mark of truth. The world system is still here after 6,000 years and so are all of it's sub-systems that make up the world system. The Political and religious and education systems are just 3 of the World's subsystems. Satan is the father of counterfeit religion. Is he not still here, today? Are the world's religious systems still not here, today? Zoroastrianism is older than Catholicism. Does that make it the true religion?

To be sure, the "Church of the Firstborn" is still here today after 2,000 years and they are holding to Jesus. She was born at Pentecost, not at the Reformation. However, the Lord used the Reformation to set many free from the bondage of Rome. They immediately initiated the Counter-Reformation which you are still engaged in, I might add. In every generation the Lord has a remnant to speak forth His truth. You may not see them in the yellow pages or the Saturday paper, but the Church He founded still has a witness on earth.

Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN (nothing mentioned about Rome or Catholic), which are written in heaven (membership is in heaven not on earth), and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9,1:pG 13,732.


You will have to take that up with Jesus who brought a sword to divide people who line up on the side of darkness and lies from those who line up on the side of light and truth. Dividing oneself from that which is not of God is commanded by the Lord Himself.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business. But like many complicated things, it can be simplified sufficiently well that even non-experts can get the gist of it. Here's what seems a fairly accurate but simplified summary of the issue: The break between Catholics and Protestants was either a tragic necessity (to use Jaroslav Pelikan's expression) or it was tragic because unnecessary.
source​

It was definitely, necessary in light of Revelation 18:4. Many were set free from the clutches of Rome.

Kepha, you are a hardcore apologist for the Roman Catholic religion and for that I am truly sorry for you. You are in my prayers and I hope and pray the eyes of your heart will be opened someday. I think it will be like you were literally raised from the dead when you see the light of the glory of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Axehead
 

neophyte

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Axehead,Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands ( Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. ( Ephesians 3:10).
 

Episkopos

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The gospel of Axehead states that we don't need a Church because Jesus does everything. The primary function of the Church is to teach the truth about Jesus, and the truth about humanity. To say that an organized fellowship takes away from Jesus is absurd.

All baptized believers belong to the Church Jesus founded, the problem is the varying degrees of separation that have occurred down through the centuries. Denying the divine characteristics (qualities, attributes) of the Church is self defeating. The Church is One, Holy, Universal, (Catholic) and Apostolic. These are also called the 4 marks of God. She could not possibly be a mere man made organization or she would never have survived.

Separated ecclesial communities bear these 4 marks as well, but in varying degrees. Some are missing one or two all together. They have decided, based on the vision on one man, that they have no need for one of these 4 marks, or partial elements of one or more of these marks. The Church admits that both sides were to blame for this tragedy 500 years ago. CCC817, 818, 819

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9,1:pG 13,732.

Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business. But like many complicated things, it can be simplified sufficiently well that even non-experts can get the gist of it. Here's what seems a fairly accurate but simplified summary of the issue: The break between Catholics and Protestants was either a tragic necessity (to use Jaroslav Pelikan's expression) or it was tragic because unnecessary.

I agree with this...One, Holy, Universal, (Catholic) and Apostolic.

The church is indeed to have these 4 attributes....but these are not just labels but are to be spiritually real.

It reminds me of the McDonalds corporation calling their meat "all Beef". The "all beef" moniker is the label or name of the company ....and not the actual content of the meat itself.

The same charade goes with the money in the US provided by the US Treasury. The treasury is actually a privately owned company and not an official governmental organ.

And so it is with the Catholic church. Men cannot reproduce or maintain a revival of the life of God in His church. But they can fool people into thinking that God ordains man-made institutions.

So I disagree that the true church is an organization called "Catholic". To be actually apostolic one would have to conduct the meetings just as the apostles did. There is no organized church that does this. One must go outside the camp of religious organizations to find where Jesus is abiding.

But I will heartily agree that so many think that denigrating the body of Christ in some way brings more glory to the Head. In this way I agree with the Catholic position at least in principle...because it IS biblical.
 

epostle1

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The church is indeed to have these 4 attributes....but these are not just labels but are to be spiritually real.
They are divine attributes or marks of God.


Permit me to define what these 4 marks mean:

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)

Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.
His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)

By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).
But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

So I disagree that the true church is an organization called "Catholic".

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)

Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).
Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

To be actually apostolic one would have to conduct the meetings just as the apostles did. There is no organized church that does this.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)

The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the authority of Scripture, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.
source

The Catholic Church is the true Church, but she is not the only church with truths. I explained this inpost #24
 

Episkopos

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They are divine attributes or marks of God.


Permit me to define what these 4 marks mean:

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)

Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.
His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)

By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).
But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).



The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)

Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).
Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.



The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)

The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the authority of Scripture, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.
source

The Catholic Church is the true Church, but she is not the only church with truths. I explained this inpost #24

This is propaganda. The bible lists "churches" in the plural. The witness of Christ on earth is plural. The Head of the church is in heaven...not on earth. The unity of the churches is maintained from heaven through the Holy Spirit.

It seems that every possible error is being maintained. Some believe the church is mystical and that there is no earthly representation of God's people on earth. While others claim to have the franchise of God's representation on earth. Both are literally heretical.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the church and He rules through the Spirit. He uses the brethren to wield His authority through. He doesn't need a man-made hierarchy...but men can only control the church by maintaining their own hierarchies.

The Christian church doesn't need priests or clerics like other worldly religions. God's actual church is led by the Spirit.
 

epostle1

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This is propaganda. The bible lists "churches" in the plural. The witness of Christ on earth is plural. The Head of the church is in heaven...not on earth. The unity of the churches is maintained from heaven through the Holy Spirit.

"Church" is singular and plural.

It is used in the singular in the universal way Jesus founded and commission her, Matthew 16:18 Matthew 18:17 "all Judea" Acts 8:3 and in Acts 2:47 Acts 5:11 Acts 8:1 Acts 12:1 Acts 12:5 and many others.

Scripture uses plural (churches) to describe geographical communities.

If the unity of the churches is maintained solely through the Holy Spirit, then the holy spirit is not doing a very good job. Paul tells us that the ONE body is maintained by the partaking of the ONE bread. Acts 2:46 1 Corinthians 10:17

Jesus appointed an earthly head for the Church, while Jesus is the head of the Church in heaven.

Agreed.

It seems that every possible error is being maintained.

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Jesus never promised that the gates of hell would not attack, He said it would never prevail. Big difference. The so called reformers believed that the gates of hell did prevail, making Jesus a liar.

Some believe the church is mystical and that there is no earthly representation of God's people on earth. While others claim to have the franchise of God's representation on earth. Both are literally heretical.

Agreed. The franchise concept removes the superintendence of the Holy Spirit from the Church, when she rules on matters of faith and morals, reducing it to a mere human institution. This is Protestant propaganda. The Pope is not a dominating dictator, and not like the CEO of a corporation. The Catholic Church is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T or General Motors.

Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 - Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.


Jesus Christ is the Head of the church and He rules through the Spirit.

Agreed.

He uses the brethren to wield His authority through. He doesn't need a man-made hierarchy...but men can only control the church by maintaining their own hierarchies.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests Aaron's sons (Ex. 19:6; Ex. 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,1 Tim. 3:8; 1 Tim. 3 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6).

The Christian church doesn't need priests or clerics like other worldly religions. God's actual church is led by the Spirit.

God's Apostles and their successors are prevented from teaching error. Propaganda says the Church awards infallibility to herself. This is false. It is a gift from God.

There is nothing is scripture about individual believers being led by the Spirit apart from the Church.

Sources:
Biblegateway.com
scripturecatholic.com
 

Rex

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If the unity of the churches is maintained solely through the Holy Spirit, then the holy spirit is not doing a very good job. Paul tells us that the ONE body is maintained by the partaking of the ONE bread. Acts 2:46 1 Corinthians 10:17

Matthew 12:22
[sup]30[/sup]"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. [sup]31[/sup]"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [sup]32[/sup]"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"

Simply because you don't approve of the state of affairs today "not complying with the RCC" doesn't mean God is not at work and knows very well who belongs Him ========= the church.
 

dragonfly

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Hi kepha,

The unity of the Spirit is not detected by outward observance, whereas outward show of religion may conceal the absence of the Spirit of God.



The unity of the Spirit is discerned in the inner man, which recognises other believers who also have received Him in great simplicity.



Jesus said, 'We know what we worship', John 4:22b, and this choice is one aspect of what is discerned by the inner man. John 4:23, 24.



Psalms 42:7 Deep calls to deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me.




People who look at the proliferation of denominations as if God has had no hand in their development and usefulness to Him, are missing the fact that everything He allows - including the Roman Catholic Church - furthers His own purposes according to His good pleasure.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 - 13 Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory. Romans 8:23



God is not calling people out of denominations as much as He is calling out of idolatry (and occult activities which go with it): from love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world; if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him; for all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world; and the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever (1 John 2:15 - 17) to look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness, according to His promise.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
 
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epostle1

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Matthew 12:22
[sup]30[/sup]"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. [sup]31[/sup]"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [sup]32[/sup]"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"

Simply because you don't approve of the state of affairs today "not complying with the RCC" doesn't mean God is not at work and knows very well who belongs Him ========= the church.

I am not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Please scroll back to post 24 and click on the link: CCC817, 818, 819. It clearly and explicitly states: 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[sup]273[/sup] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[sup]274[/sup] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth...

Show me another church that is as conciliatory. In return, we are called papists, Mary worshipers, Romanists, etc., etc.

I wonder how many times I have to repeat myself before you catch on.

Catholicism extends an olive branch to non-Catholic Christians and it's people like you that snatch it out and hit us with it, and suggest I am blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Shame on you.

I don't think Jesus approves of the scandalous state of the church today, with new denominations formed on a daily basis. Thousands of "Holy Spirit led" churches each teaching conflicting doctrines. That is what I am talking about that you didn't get. You deceive yourself into thinking that anyone who opposes Catholicism is "spirit led" What a joke. John 17:21

I don't mean to offend anyone here but non-denominationalism has its own distinct theology, thus it is a denomination in itself, each group having its own itinerary.

I never said "not complying with the RCC". Those are your words, not mine.

Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?

How do Fundamental Christian churches who often boast that they are “separated,” obey God’s command that Christians “all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10)?

Your abuse of Matthew 12 to negate what I said is meaningless.
 

Episkopos

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"Church" is singular and plural.

It is used in the singular in the universal way Jesus founded and commission her, Matthew 16:18 Matthew 18:17 "all Judea" Acts 8:3 and in Acts 2:47 Acts 5:11 Acts 8:1 Acts 12:1 Acts 12:5 and many others.

Scripture uses plural (churches) to describe geographical communities.

If the unity of the churches is maintained solely through the Holy Spirit, then the holy spirit is not doing a very good job. Paul tells us that the ONE body is maintained by the partaking of the ONE bread. Acts 2:46 1 Corinthians 10:17

The people are divided because they don't know enough of Christ. The early church operated at a significant depth of spiritual life and power. Today this is very rare....so the true witness is also very rare. But it is always there. We see the Spirit at work where there is persecution for the gospel's sake...as in China. But there are few disciples in the Western nations. The churches in the west have failed to forsake their old lives and all they have. You will find that the words of Jesus Christ are very unpopular in the churches of today. That is why we see so little of the church life of old. It is no wonder...this has been prophesied in the word. So we cannot make believe that all is ok. We need a deep repentance in order to restore the vitality of the church. We need the presence of God to become the hallmark of the true church once again.







Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Jesus never promised that the gates of hell would not attack, He said it would never prevail. Big difference. The so called reformers believed that the gates of hell did prevail, making Jesus a liar.

The reformers both went too far and not far enough. The reformers also persecuted the true church (anabaptists, bruderhof) since they simply wished to clean house without forsaking religious institutions that supported them. These reformers did show us that one can know God outside the system....but these then denied the reality of the visible oneness of the body of Christ. So they threw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.

Reading church history apart from the bible is misleading. It is as if the unbelievers among the Romans and Jews were cataloguing the events rather than the saints. So we see a polar shift after the early church...the subversion of the faith of Christ and the apostles. The popular history is now one of what men have done...not the Spirit. Does this mean that the Spirit is not at work? Of course not. It means, rather, that the work of God remains hidden from the masses...at least in popular culture. Church history is like the story of Samson...who was blinded and made to serve the temporal powers....until one last revival of strength before the end.




Agreed. The franchise concept removes the superintendence of the Holy Spirit from the Church, when she rules on matters of faith and morals, reducing it to a mere human institution. This is Protestant propaganda. The Pope is not a dominating dictator, and not like the CEO of a corporation. The Catholic Church is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T or General Motors.

Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 - Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.


We don't even see a literal succession in the OT....so why look at this in the NT? The idea of a pontiff that rules over the world in Christ's stead is blasphemous. One can never take the place of the Head. We are the BODY not the HEAD. So the RC church has gone too far in this by far. Maybe the simple ones need something visible to look at...but this practice is in direct contradiction of the revelation of Christ. We show Christ through the life that is witnessed in the body. We show that there must be a head in heaven due to the unity among the brethren. This of course creates difficulties for the western mind...the same rebellious mind that refuses to give up it's temporal advantages and privileges. We see the plight of the western churches in the story of the rich young ruler.

We need not create an alternate reality in order to fulfill what we think the bible is saying. Let God see to the affairs of His own church. It is not our business to build the church...nor to "create saints" as the errant RC church does. Only God can make saints. Rather than ask carnal questions...we should lay down our lives in order to better see what God is actually doing.




Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests Aaron's sons (Ex. 19:6; Ex. 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,1 Tim. 3:8; 1 Tim. 3 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6).

The nature of the NT is not visible as in the OT. The NT is spiritual in nature but revolutionary in power. By spiritual I don't mean the type of invisibility the non-RC's usually promulgate. I mean that the true church is not recognized by the clerical authorities on earth. People are looking the wrong way. There is no spiritual hierarchy on earth. We are all brethren. God can use whom He wishes to reveal His will.

God's Apostles and their successors are prevented from teaching error. Propaganda says the Church awards infallibility to herself. This is false. It is a gift from God.

There is nothing is scripture about individual believers being led by the Spirit apart from the Church.


This is the error of the RC church. It is errors like these that cause so much reaction in the non-RC's so that the truth of the Body goes unrecognized. Who can discern the Body???

If you read Acts you will find many instances of individuals being led by the Spirit. Who laid hands on Paul to receive His sight??? Was he sent by the Spirit or by a cleric???

So here we have the errors in plain sight.

The RC's say that an individual cannot be led by the Spirit.

The "Protestants" claim that ONLY individuals can be led by the Spirit.

Both are human errors that ignore the truth. We see the great delusion on both counts.

We have the church as a saviour... or else the personal salvation of a personal saviour. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. Every error is being brought forward...those who love the truth will avoid the ditches.

Here is a little thing I found when looking for the blemished sacrifices we westerners demand God to receive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLn0vK7wBec
 

Rex

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I am not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Please scroll back to post 24 and click on the link: CCC817, 818, 819. It clearly and explicitly states: 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[sup]273[/sup] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[sup]274[/sup] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth...

Show me another church that is as conciliatory. In return, we are called papists, Mary worshipers, Romanists, etc., etc.

I wonder how many times I have to repeat myself before you catch on.


Maybe conciliatory is the proper term when used in the form of reconcile "conciliatory adj; intended to placate or reconcile" As use in the sentence. To reconcile those back to faith in the catholic church.


As it says below catholics teach all blessing come from the RCC
From the link you referenced its pretty clear the RCC doesn't recognize any other church.
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[sup]273[/sup] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[sup]274[/sup] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[sup]275[/sup] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[sup]276[/sup]

I've had catholics affirm I have been born from above but insist its from the catholic church.

And catholics also teach that if you are not a member you are "not in full communion.

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."[sup]269[/sup] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[sup]270[/sup] - do not occur without human sin:




Some more from your link
ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
[url=""%5D811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."[sup]256[/sup] These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,[sup]257[/sup] indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."[sup]258[/sup]

So lets just be honest shall we and not paint a picture of the catholic church as being tolerant or accepting "conciliatory" of others, she stands alone and looks down her pointing finger on all that is not catholic. The long and short of it is that men have replaced the Holy Spirit If you truly follow catholic teaching. That bit of truth rears its head,,,,,,,,,, as you demonstrated by inferring the HS is not doing a very good job.
 
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Axehead

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Axehead,Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18).
You know that I will always disagree with you because I believe that Scriptures teaches that Jesus Christ is the Rock, which the Church is built upon. The Church is built upon the truth of Peter's confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. The preponderance of Scripture all points to Jesus Christ and not a mere man (Peter) as the ROCK.

1Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17).
And this is where the Roman Catholic organization deviates greatly from Scripture co-opting everything from Jesus and either giving it to Mary, Peter or RCC proclaimed saints. Jesus is stripped of His Headship and authority and it has all been placed in men's hands (and control). All who have the Holy Spirit have spiritual authority (because the Authority is Christ). It is directly from God and not handed down from men to a secret fraternity of men. (John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.)

Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands ( Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
Once again you are just parroting classic RCC dogma that does not exist in the Bible.

By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. ( Ephesians 3:10).
And we have a classic example today, in the RCC of what happens when men think they are the "final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith". But that is ok, because God has allowed the Roman Catholic religion along with other false teachers and prophets to exist for centuries as they are needed and even divinely ordained.

1Cor 11:19 For there must be

also heresies among you,

that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The RCC fights so hard to convince people that the Bible does not say what they think it says and to convince them that the RCC certainly knows what the Bible says and means and can tell them. As you are trying so hard to validate yourselves and be accepted is very telling within itself. You think that people coming back to Rome is evidence and validation of all that you propagate, but it is nothing of the sort. It just means that people are easily deceived. I assure you that if you and other Catholics were not here pushing your RCC dogma and doctrine, no one here would be talking about it. The RCC is a non-issue by and large for Believers who enjoy one another's fellowship in the Spirit. You flatter yourself if you think Spirit led Christians are focused on you. There may be a couple of ministries here and there that feel they have been called to expose your false doctrine, but by and large, you are not the topic of conversation in Christian fellowships. As evidence of that, you don't see anyone here going on and on about other "Christian" cults such as the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc, etc. It would be the same for you had you not stopped by. Since you have stopped by and are pushing your dogmas, you should not be surprised that many people are challenging you from the Scriptures concerning how you twist them.

I do appreciate the Body of Christ coming together in CyB from various individual churches to repudiate the error of the RCC.

How can you say we don't have unity?

Axehead

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aspen

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I think the Bible and the Church are instruments of truth, sort of like nature. People's opinions about either or both speak more about the lens of their heart than the truth to be gleaned. Next time you attend church or read the Bible, check your expectations/conclusions and turn them over to God. He will return them, interpreted through the lens of unconditional love.

When I went to Mass on Sunday night, a little girl asked her mother to clarify what the priest had just said - he was talking about God providing 'the answers' - she looked at her mother and asked excitedly, 'God is going to give us hamsters!?' Yes, her doctrine was flawed......but her expectation from God and His church was spectacular :)
 

epostle1

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The people are divided because they don't know enough of Christ. The early church operated at a significant depth of spiritual life and power. Today this is very rare....so the true witness is also very rare. But it is always there. We see the Spirit at work where there is persecution for the gospel's sake...as in China. But there are few disciples in the Western nations. The churches in the west have failed to forsake their old lives and all they have. You will find that the words of Jesus Christ are very unpopular in the churches of today. That is why we see so little of the church life of old. It is no wonder...this has been prophesied in the word. So we cannot make believe that all is ok. We need a deep repentance in order to restore the vitality of the church. We need the presence of God to become the hallmark of the true church once again.

Agreed

Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.


UT UNUM SINT
On commitment to Ecumenism

The reformers both went too far and not far enough. The reformers also persecuted the true church (anabaptists, bruderhof) since they simply wished to clean house without forsaking religious institutions that supported them. These reformers did show us that one can know God outside the system....but these then denied the reality of the visible oneness of the body of Christ. So they threw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.

More than that. Some say the reformers didn't discover a pure or primitive Christianity, they invented a new religion. Denying the visible church and spiritualizing everything in sight is a form of pagan dualism.
Reading church history apart from the bible is misleading. It is as if the unbelievers among the Romans and Jews were cataloguing the events rather than the saints. So we see a polar shift after the early church...the subversion of the faith of Christ and the apostles. The popular history is now one of what men have done...not the Spirit. Does this mean that the Spirit is not at work? Of course not. It means, rather, that the work of God remains hidden from the masses...at least in popular culture. Church history is like the story of Samson...who was blinded and made to serve the temporal powers....until one last revival of strength before the end.

Maybe this explains the fundamentalists aversion the the writings of the earliest Christians, also known as the Early Church Fathers. Some say the unanimity of their teachings is infallible and I tend to agree with that, but they are not the Magisterium, no matter how many snippets an anti-Catholic may cherry pick in trying to prover something.

"To be steeped in history is to cease to be a Protestant" Cardinal Newman, former Protestant.

We don't even see a literal succession in the OT....so why look at this in the NT?

You don't see it because it isn't literally explicit, therefore you assume it never existed. Either a succession of Davidic kings existed or it didn't. That does not necessitate an unbroken line of succession covering all periods of OT history. Think!​

The idea of a pontiff that rules over the world in Christ's stead is blasphemous. One can never take the place of the Head. We are the BODY not the HEAD. So the RC church has gone too far in this by far. Maybe the simple ones need something visible to look at...but this practice is in direct contradiction of the revelation of Christ. We show Christ through the life that is witnessed in the body. We show that there must be a head in heaven due to the unity among the brethren. This of course creates difficulties for the western mind...the same rebellious mind that refuses to give up it's temporal advantages and privileges. We see the plight of the western churches in the story of the rich young ruler.​

That's because you can't even imagine an EARTHLY head that in no way supplants the HEAVENLY Headship of Christ. And it is totally biblical. You have to ignore quite a lot of scripture to support your assertion, and you are unable to come up with one verse to support it. I doubt the Primacy of Peter and Apostolic Succession has never been properly explained to you, or you were never open to understanding it to begin with.
We need not create an alternate reality in order to fulfill what we think the bible is saying. Let God see to the affairs of His own church. It is not our business to build the church...nor to "create saints" as the errant RC church does. Only God can make saints. Rather than ask carnal questions...we should lay down our lives in order to better see what God is actually doing.

A ROCK is not an alternate reality.

The nature of the NT is not visible as in the OT. The NT is spiritual in nature but revolutionary in power. By spiritual I don't mean the type of invisibility the non-RC's usually promulgate. I mean that the true church is not recognized by the clerical authorities on earth. People are looking the wrong way. There is no spiritual hierarchy on earth. We are all brethren. God can use whom He wishes to reveal His will.

Sunday school 101: What is hidden in the Old Testament is revealed in the New.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests Aaron's sons (Ex. 19:6; Ex. 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,1 Tim. 3:8; 1 Tim. 3 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6).

This is on the previous page that you overlooked. Like I said, you have to ignore a lot of verses and have not one verse to support your invisible church.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmv3B6LLDrQ
 

Rex

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Maybe this explains the fundamentalists aversion the the writings of the earliest Christians, also known as the Early Church Fathers. Some say the unanimity of their teachings is infallible and I tend to agree with that, but they are not the Magisterium, no matter how many snippets an anti-Catholic may cherry pick in trying to prover something.

It would seem that anyone that disagrees with your perspective is labeled anti-catholic. Me being one "who disagrees", would you be offended if I referred to you and catholics as anti-protestant?

And BTW I confronted your anti-protestant cherry picking in my last post.
 

Endtime

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The Church is the source of all truth because Christ is the founder of the Church. It is just that every liar who says they are a member of the church is not.