But the Church does have the Holy Spirit , just because your man-made church was never infused with the HS doen't mean that His Apostolic Universal/ Catholic Church wasn't. The bible tells us only His Apostolic Church was infused with the Holy Spirit ,so, yes the Catholic/Apostolic Church contains the gift of the Holy Spirit ,so as far as churches go only the Catholic/Apostolic Church contains the Holy Spirit , unless you can prove from the bible that your non-apostolic church was also infused with the HS.Show me from the Holy Bible, if you can't then go lick your wounds, and stop your squawking.
The Church is Not the Source of Truth
- Thread starter Axehead
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Among the more prominent psychological traits existing is close-mindedness. Thoroughly committed to the authority pattern of his organisation.
One of the principal characteristics is that they add to God's word "the bible"
One of the common characteristics is their practice of changing the meaning of Biblical terms.
One of the characteristics is the way in which their doctrines change over a period of time.
Many leaders make exalted claims of themselves.
If you think you and or your church exhibit any of these attributes then you should follow this link http://www.christian...s/cults/02.html
One of the principal characteristics is that they add to God's word "the bible"
One of the common characteristics is their practice of changing the meaning of Biblical terms.
One of the characteristics is the way in which their doctrines change over a period of time.
Many leaders make exalted claims of themselves.
If you think you and or your church exhibit any of these attributes then you should follow this link http://www.christian...s/cults/02.html
If you go over to the Anticatholic, antimormon, thread you will see a church that is not led by the Holy Spirit. Check out the bones.
Post #74 and #76.
Neo, when are you going to give up trying to convince us that God is in all of this?
If you had first-hand knowledge of the Holy Spirit, you would know whether the Holy Spirit has anything to do with your church.
The only Person building an eternal church is God. Any other 'church' will turn to chaff in the wind one day.
Psalm 127:Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman wakens in vain.
Relics
there is no reason to think that the whole of a saint’s skeleton must be kept in one reliquary. In fact, from what we ... we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore him whose martyrs they are" ( Ad ...
The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7). He also stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed" (1 Tim. 6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: "Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor" (1 Pet. 2:17).
The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: "Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: "He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward" (Matt. 10:41).
So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.
Statue Worship?
People who do not know better sometimes say that Catholics worship statues. Not only is this untrue, it is even untrue that Catholics honor statues. After all, a statue is nothing but a carved block of marble or a chunk of plaster, and no one gives honor to marble yet unquarried or to plaster still in the mixing bowl.
The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them.
The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."
In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: "‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.
When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included "his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Nomad, maybe I can help you with the Comma Johanneum,
The Johannine Gloss or Johannine Comma, as it is more commonly known, is an interpolated passage which appears in 1 John 5:7-8, shown here in brackets: "For there are three who bear witness [in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth]: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three are one."
The New Catholic Encyclopedia explains that
the bracketed phrases appear in the [Vulgate] version of the Bible, the official version of the Sacred Scriptures for the Latin Rite of the Church. Among scholars these phrases are commonly called the "Johannine Comma." On the basis of manuscript evidence scholars seriously question their authenticity. The Comma is absent in all the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament with the exception of four rather recent manuscripts that date from the thirteenth to the sixteenth centuries.
The Comma is lacking in such ancient Oriental versions as the Peshitta, Philoxenian, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian. While the majority of the Latin manuscripts of 1 John do contain the Comma, the earlier and better manuscripts, both the Old Latin and the Vulgate versions, lack it. The earliest manuscript in which it appears dates from the ninth century.
The Fathers of the East do not quote or refer to the Johannine Comma in their Christological controversies. This omission indicates that the Comma was not part of the biblical text of their time, for they surely would have used it had it been in the text. Some fourth-century Latin writers, while referring to 1 John 5:8b and giving this a Trinitarian interpretation, failed to give any indication that they knew of the existence of the Comma as a scriptural passage.
Due to the overcritical spirit that was prevalent in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the Church considered it necessary in its decree of the Holy Office of January 13,1897 to caution its scholars against rashly rejecting or doubting the authenticity of this passage. However, in a decree of June 2, 1927, the Holy Office clarified its earlier statement in declaring that scholars may be inclined to doubt or reject the authenticity of the Johannine Comma subject to any forthcoming judgment of the Church. No scholar any longer accepts its authenticity. But even though the Comma is not a biblical passage, it is a firm witness to the fact that the faith of the [early] Christian was fully Trinitarian.
Eph 2:19 - 22,
Where have I suggested that Jesus is not the foundation of the Church? What I object to is this bending over backwards trying to prove that the Apostles and prophets are not the foundation of the Church as well, contrary to the plain meaning of scripture. They are not equal to Jesus, but they are still the foundation of the Church. 1 Corinthians 3:11 affirms Eph 2:19 - 22 and does not contradict it because the Apostles foundation rests on the foundation of Jesus. I hope I have made myself clear.
Your emphasis on the apostles as members of the foundation, strongly implied a lesser or absent role for Jesus Christ, especially in light of the CC's emphasis on Peter as 'the rock' on which the church is built. You can understand, the lack of visibility of Christ in the foundation, is confusing, and in particular, had no scriptural support.
Hi kepha,
Yes you have.
But it's impossible for the apostles and prophets to be of the same order as Christ the very foundation itself. (Himself.)It is delightful to see Jesus Christ receiving His rightful place, since the prophecy that He should be the head-stone, is ancient. Here are some statements from the Biblical narrative which elucidate God's thoughts- for our understanding - about 'church'.
Genesis 28:22 And this stone, which I have set [for] a pillar, shall be God's house...'
Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders refused is become the head of the corner.
Matt 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11, 1 Peter 2:5, 7 Five (repetitions), the number of grace, (New Covenant).
Genesis 35:14 And Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he talked with him, [even] a pillar of stone: and he poured a drink offering thereon, and he poured oil thereon. 15 And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel [house of God].
Genesis 49:22 Joseph [is] a fruitful bough, [even] a fruitful bough by a well; [whose] branches run over the wall: 23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot [at him], and hated him: 24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty [God] of Jacob; (from thence [is] the shepherd, the stone of Israel).
Exodus 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Deuteronomy 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness to our God 4 the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.
By the time Jesus was preaching, the whole nation was extremely familiar with the truth that God is their Rock.
Matthew 7:24 Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house upon a rock:
There we see equality of brethren in the church, regardless of their gifting or calling or prominence within the body of Christ.
After the cross, according to David's prophecy, there was rejoicing in the heart of God our Saviour:
Psalm 22:22 I will declare thy name to my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise to thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God has given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The cherubim were in the Holy of holies, of the Tabernacle where God met with man, over the Ark of the Covenant - Jesus Christ, John 1:18
Paul uses the Greek word for Holy of holies, naos, in Ephesians 2:21. The emphasis is not upon outward structure, but upon inner heart.
Psalm 80:1 Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leads Joseph like a flock; thou that dwells [between] the cherubims, shine forth.
Isaiah 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm and carry in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture... 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, one shepherd.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I posted my response in HammerStone's thread found here - http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16847-majority-text-textus-receptus-or-critical-text/#entry171769
This link will take you directly to my post.
dragonfly, you wrote:"Your emphasis on the apostles as members of the foundation, strongly implied a lesser or absent role for Jesus Christ, especially in light of the CC's emphasis on Peter as 'the rock' on which the church is built. You can understand, the lack of visibility of Christ in the foundation, is confusing, and in particular, had no scriptural support.''
This verse is still in the Bible [ Luke 10; 16 ] strange how you can't seem to find it
What do you think was the reason Jesus passed on His Authority to only His apostles ? Also ponder over this , because Christianity is a religion --and not merely a philosophy --there is need of religious authority. If Christianity were wholly the product of our muinds and desires, there would be no need of an authority outside ourselves.If it consisted in each person's adapting an ideal to his own personality, then one man's idea would be just as good as the next fellow's. It would be an insufferable imposition for anyone to impose his private interpretation on another who chose to disagree with him.
But this is not Christianity. For Christianity is a revealed religion. It is to avoid conflicts of opinion and personal "religions" that religion has been revealed by God. And it is for this reason that there must be a religious authority This religious authority is found in His One True Church because authority must also exist in God's religion because we do not make the rules of His religion; God does.
As from the very first God first spoke through Moses, Moses then speaks to us, but Moses had this "authority" alone at his time. Then Jesus came to us with His Authority and only left us with His Church with it's apostles as that base of authority until Jesus returns. To make sure we understand Him , He guides the Church's teaching authority so it always interprets [ together ] the Bible and God's Tradition accurately . This is the gift of infallibility. [ Bible verses support this ]
This verse is still in the Bible [ Luke 10; 16 ] strange how you can't seem to find it
What do you think was the reason Jesus passed on His Authority to only His apostles ? Also ponder over this , because Christianity is a religion --and not merely a philosophy --there is need of religious authority. If Christianity were wholly the product of our muinds and desires, there would be no need of an authority outside ourselves.If it consisted in each person's adapting an ideal to his own personality, then one man's idea would be just as good as the next fellow's. It would be an insufferable imposition for anyone to impose his private interpretation on another who chose to disagree with him.
But this is not Christianity. For Christianity is a revealed religion. It is to avoid conflicts of opinion and personal "religions" that religion has been revealed by God. And it is for this reason that there must be a religious authority This religious authority is found in His One True Church because authority must also exist in God's religion because we do not make the rules of His religion; God does.
As from the very first God first spoke through Moses, Moses then speaks to us, but Moses had this "authority" alone at his time. Then Jesus came to us with His Authority and only left us with His Church with it's apostles as that base of authority until Jesus returns. To make sure we understand Him , He guides the Church's teaching authority so it always interprets [ together ] the Bible and God's Tradition accurately . This is the gift of infallibility. [ Bible verses support this ]
I wasn't looking for it.
This is why I explained the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the believer - which brings every believer who has truly submitted to Jesus Christ, into a frame of mind which is ready to agree with God and glorify His name in the earth.
Being guided by the Holy Spirit means everyone has the 'rules of His religion' in his heart, directly from God.
That's an aspect of being in the New Covenant.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it lists, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Bible verses can be made to support anything by people who have no vital relationship with the Lord through His Holy Spirit, but one who knows the Lord - who is the Way, the Life and the Truth - John 14:6 has had their spiritual ears and eyes opened Ephesians 1:17, cannot be deceived.
It's the Holy Spirit who interprets truth to our spiritual understanding. 1 Corinthians 2:9 - 16 But we have to be doing truth, too, to internalise it.
Let me lay a little foundation for you neophyte. There is a great distinction between the Old Testament and the New. One of the greatest distinctions is the way in which the Holy Spirit is distributed. From Adam to Jesus the Holy Spirit was not freely available to every man that believe, but rather rested on a few threw the ages leading and pointing to Christ as Peter says 2 Peter 1:21 and 2Peter 1:17-19. Every great man of the OT was empowered by the same Spirit. That intern men heard the word of God, threw them the things of God..... Jeremiah 31:31 and Eze 36:26 is a good example of the time that was ahead when a new covenant would be made,, one in which the Spirit would then "now" be available to all men that believed "unto salvation" in the promise to come which was, and now is Jesus. The Rock from which water pored fourth when it was struck Ex 17:6 John 4:10 that rock being struck was Jesus, giving His life on the cross, the water pouring out, the Spirit unto all men that believed in Jesus. Your church does not teach this, the most valuable and basic understanding of the entire OT message. The rock is not peter the rock that Jesus spoke of was Himself.
Ex 17:6
Num 20:8
Now the next time Mosses was told to draw water from the rock he was told to speak to the rock. This signifys that after Christ died "was struck" that we now speak to the rock which is Christ Jesus. and water flows forth. But Mosses did not do as the LORD asked him instead he struck the rock twice. For this error God said to him and Arron.
Because Moses miss represented speaking to the rock and instead struck it again. His ministry was taken from him.
Does your church misrepresent the rock as Mosses did?
Is that rock Jesus or Peter? Is that stone Peter or Jesus Dan 2:34-35
Dt 8:15
Dt 32:37
1 Sa 2:2
2 Sa 22:2
2 Sa 22:32
Ps 18:31
Ps 31:3
Isa 8:14
Job 18:4
Ex 17:6
Num 20:8
Now the next time Mosses was told to draw water from the rock he was told to speak to the rock. This signifys that after Christ died "was struck" that we now speak to the rock which is Christ Jesus. and water flows forth. But Mosses did not do as the LORD asked him instead he struck the rock twice. For this error God said to him and Arron.
Because Moses miss represented speaking to the rock and instead struck it again. His ministry was taken from him.
Does your church misrepresent the rock as Mosses did?
Is that rock Jesus or Peter? Is that stone Peter or Jesus Dan 2:34-35
Dt 8:15
Dt 32:37
1 Sa 2:2
2 Sa 22:2
2 Sa 22:32
Ps 18:31
Ps 31:3
Isa 8:14
Job 18:4
Dragonfly, your Holy Spirit obsession is unbalanced.
There is no explicit scripture to support this theory, you have just the usual list of unrelated quotes. The Pentacostal movement, all made up of people with the Holy Spirit just like you, are divided between Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian sects. Are you going to argue that the Holy Spirit led all these "spirit filled" people into such serious division, with 700 denominations since its inception from Azusa Street? "Holy Spirit" filled Christians have no central authority, so where do you fit in, or are you adding to the list your own denomination of one?
What you need to do dragonfly, is pay close attention to authoritative consistent teaching on the Holy Spirit that comes to us from Jesus and the Apostles and hasn't changed since. You might learn something.
The Holy Spirit: A Commentary by Fr. Barron
The Primacy of Peter
Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).
Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.
Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.
Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.
Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.
Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.
Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.
Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.
Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.
Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.
Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.
Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.
Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."
Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.
Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.
Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.
Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.
Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.
Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.
Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.
John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.
John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.
John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.
John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.
John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.
John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.
Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.
Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.
Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.
Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.
Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.
Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.
Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.
Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.
Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.
Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.
Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).
Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.
Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.
Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.
Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.
Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."
Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.
1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.
1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.
1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.
1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.
2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.
2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.
Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.
Top
Tradition / Church Fathers
I. Peter Built the Church in Rome
"Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him." Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).
"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).
'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).
"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).
"As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out." Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)
"It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid: 'But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church.'" Gaius, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, 2:25 (A.D. 198).
"[W]hat utterance also the Romans give, so very near (to the apostles), to whom Peter and Paul conjointly bequeathed the gospel even sealed with their own blood." Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:5 (inter A.D. 207-212).
'We read the lives of the Caesars: At Rome Nero was the first who stained with blood the rising blood. Then is Peter girt by another (an allusion to John 21:18), when he is made fast to the cross." Tertullian, Scorpiace, 15:3 (A.D. 212).
"Peter...at last, having come to Rome, he was crucified head-downwards; for he had requested that he might suffer this way." Origen, Third Commentary on Genesis, (A.D. 232).
"Thus Peter, the first of the Apostles, having been often apprehended, and thrown into prison, and treated with igominy, was last of all crucified at Rome." Peter of Alexandria, The Canonical Epistle, Canon 9 (A.D. 306).
"[W]hich Peter and Paul preached at Rome..." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 4:21 (A.D. 310).
"Peter...coming to the city of Rome, by the mighty cooperation of that power which was lying in wait there..." Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, II:14,5 (A.D. 325).
"This man [Simon Magus], after he had been cast out by the Apostles, came to Rome...Peter and Paul, a noble pair, chief rulers of the Church, arrived and set the error right...For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven..." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures ,6:14-15 (c. A.D. 350).
"And Peter, who had hid himself for fear of the Jews, and the Apostle Paul who was let down in a basket, and fled, when they were told, 'Ye must bear witness at Rome,' deferred not the journey; yea, rather, they departed rejoicing..." Athanasius, Defence of his Flight, 18 (c. A.D. 357).
"I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul...My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross." Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 377).
“For if when here he loved men so, that when he [Peter] had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to be here, much more will he there display a warmer affection. I love Rome even for this, although indeed one has other grounds for praising it, both for its greatness, and its antiquity, and its beauty, and its populousness, and for its power, and its wealth, and for its successes in war. But I let all this pass, and esteem it blessed on this account, that both in his lifetime he wrote to them, and loved them so, and talked with them whiles he was with us, and brought his life to a close there.” John Chrysostom, Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32 (c. A.D. 391).
"Which was mere to the interest of the Church at Rome, that it should at its commencement be presided over by some high-born and pompous senator, or by the fisherman Peter, who had none of this world's advantages to attract men to him?" Gregory of Nyssa, To the Church at Nicodemia, Epistle 13 (ante A.D. 394).
"But some people in some countries of the West, and especially in the city, [Rome] not knowing the reason of this indulgence, think that a dispensation from fasting ought certainly not to be allowed On the Sabbath, because they say that on this day the Apostle Peter fasted before his encounter with Simon [Magus]." John Cassian, Institutes, X (ante A.D. 435).
"The whole world, dearly-beloved, does indeed take part in all holy anniversaries [of Peter & Paul], and loyalty to the one Faith demands that whatever is recorded as done for all men's salvation should be everywhere celebrated with common rejoicings. But, besides that reverence which to-day's festival has gained from all the world, it is to be honoured with special and peculiar exultation in our city, that there may be a predominance of gladness on the day of their martyrdom in the place where the chief of the Apostles met their glorious end. For these are the men, through whom the light of Christ's gospel shone on thee, O Rome, and through whom thou, who wast the teacher of error, wast made the disciple of Truth.” Pope Leo the Great (regn. A.D. 440-461), Sermon LXXXII (ante A.D. 461).
Copied from Scriptural Catholic
Thank You neophyte
I rarely pay any attention to C/P clips from catholics. Unless I'm looking at what there teaching compared to the bible.
It is also not a reflection of YOU I want to hear from YOU. Is this how you intend to meet the Lord and converse? with c/p clips? Well that's how you witness or represent Him here. Will you stand there speechless with the catholic catechism in your hand frantically searching for what to say?
I rarely pay any attention to C/P clips from catholics. Unless I'm looking at what there teaching compared to the bible.
It is also not a reflection of YOU I want to hear from YOU. Is this how you intend to meet the Lord and converse? with c/p clips? Well that's how you witness or represent Him here. Will you stand there speechless with the catholic catechism in your hand frantically searching for what to say?
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I'm only going to comment on this particular passage as it is representative of the Roman Catholic penchant to twist Scripture beyond recognition. When it comes to the Jerusalem Council, Peter was not in charge. This is not open to debate unless you're illiterate or insane. It matters very little who spoke first or last, (a favorite RC argument), what matters is who says very explicitly that he is rendering judgement. James speaking says:
Act 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God...
Whose judgement??? That's right, James' judgement. So much for the first Pope. So, Kepha and Neophyte, let's try a little honesty here. In the words of Rush Limbaugh, "words mean things."
Was James the Real Leader of the Early Church?
council, he certainly did not preside over it; this honor went to James, not Peter. Additionally, although ... of the deliberations . . . Without a doubt, the man James was the one who presided over the Jerusalem Council. (18, 19) ... Was Peter really inconspicuous at the Jerusalem Council? Did he take a secondary role to James? What does ...
council, he certainly did not preside over it; this honor went to James, not Peter. Additionally, although ... of the deliberations . . . Without a doubt, the man James was the one who presided over the Jerusalem Council. (18, 19) ... Was Peter really inconspicuous at the Jerusalem Council? Did he take a secondary role to James? What does ...
Yes thanks for the correction Eusebius otherwise known as Jerome, and than much later Erasmus used parts of the corrupt Latin Vulgate to fill in for missing texts.
I read most of the article you linked and a scripture came to my mind concerning it.
1 About that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?”2 Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them.3 Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.4 So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.5 “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me.6 But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Matt 18:1-6 (NLT)
Another scripture that comes to mind is John 8:31-59
And yet another here.
10 I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.11 For some members of Chloe’s household have told me about your quarrels, my dear brothers and sisters.12 Some of you are saying, “I am a follower of Paul.” Others are saying, “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Peter, ” or “I follow only Christ.”13 Has Christ been divided into factions? Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul? Of course not!
1 Cor 1:10-13 (NLT)
Religion is such a cruel tyrant.
Similar threads
