Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

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7angels

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so what you are saying is that there is only one rapture right? if so you are wrong. there have been several already and there will be several more coming. there were at least two people who were raptured into heaven in the old testament. Jesus was never raptured because he went to heaven under his own power. but the 144,000 will be raptured out along with the 2 witnesses. the church also will be raptured. according to scripture when Jesus comes the second time he will come to earth. the first time we meet Jesus in the air(this is the rapture of the church). i have to leave now but i will post scripture later to prove my points.

God bless
 

Joshua David

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Joshua you almost made my case for me,you say the pre-trib view is the first resurrection,I totally agree.The thing I don;t agree with is the first resurrection happening prior to when the Bible plainly says it happens. I know what is next to, someone will try and convince me that the first resurrection happens over a period of thousands of years,the only problem with that is that's not in the Bible either,that's just their opinion.
For the first resurrection to include those that were beheaded for the witness of Christ during the end times,it has to happen at the second coming. Not before.
I think I wasn't very clear, I agree that there is a resurrection at the end of the tribulation. I just don't agree that this resurrection is the rapture of the church.

Rev 20:4-6 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


This resurrection includes Old Testament Saint that wasn't resurrected when Jesus was, any Tribulation Saint who died in the Tribulation, and any Israeli Jew that died during the Tribulation if they had accepted Jesus as their messiah before they died.

It does not include the Church would have already been glorified by this point.



To answer your question, the simple answer is a lot of people survive the end time events and remain on the Earth during the mill-reign. Who else would we be kings and priests for. They will be in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth during the mill-reign
Actually the answer is not as simple as you might think.. A detailed study of the Judgment of the of the sheep and goats tells us that there are only three groups of people... The brethren, the righteous, and the cursed.

Matt 25:31-40 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Now I do believe that there will be believers who are alive at the end of the tribulation, and who enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies, which proves that the Rapture is different than the First Resurrection. There is only one way that a person can be considered Righteous, and that is by believing on the Lord. The sheep are all believers, and the goats are all unbelievers. Now if the Rapture happened at the exact time that the "First Resurrection" happened then all the believers would be changed...

1 Cor 15:50-54 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

So at the rapture, everyone who is a believer is changed, then there wouldn't be any believers to take part in the Sheep and Goat Judgments. Which means there wouldn't be any believers in their mortal bodies.


So please explain how this scenario fits into a post Tribulation rapture.

If you say that unbelievers will enter the kingdom, please show supporting scripture... I showed you where righteous believers will enter the kingdom, and I showed you where cursed unbelievers are sent away. This is the pattern throughout the entire bible, the parable of the sheep and goats, the parable of the wheat and tares, the children of Israel and the promise land in every instance, the wicked are sent away, or are killed, and the righteous enter into the promise land.

Show me one instance where the God allows the unrighteous, ( unsaved ) to enter in.

Joshua David

I see while I was posting Trekson ask your next question, I will answer him the same way as if it were you, with a question of my own.

Where is it written or for that matter even implied in the Bible that another resurrection of the magnitude that takes place with the rapture.

I just noticed Trekson ask my next question also, About the group that came out of great tribulation, who are they if not the church?
If you want to define the "First Resurrection" to only include those saints who are raised at the end of the Tribulation, then I would say that's fine. Then I would say that the Church does not take part in the First resurrection, just as Jesus did not take part in the First Resurrection, and the Old Testament Saints did not take part in the First Resurrection, and the two witnesses did not take part in the First Resurrection.

The group that came out of the Great Tribulation would be the Tribulation Saints, who when added to the Old Testament Saints make up the group, Friends of the Bridegroom, that John the Baptist spoke of.

John 3:29 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.

The Bride is the church. The friends of the bridegroom, which would include the Old Testament Saints, and the Tribulation Saints. John died before Jesus, therefore he would be grouped with the Old Testament Prophets, and therefore would be a friend of the Bridegroom not the Bride.

The church was started on the Day of Pentecost, will end at the rapture, when her number is complete, then Israel's blindness will be removed.

Joshua David
 

ENOCH2010

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I believe the first resurrection includes all that except the promise of the Lord,from the early saints that believed before the Lord was born up until the Lord comes back.
Where is this additional resurrection for the church you speak of written about?

The sheep/ goat judgement isn't for the raptured saints,the s/g judgement is for the people that live through the mill / reign outside the gates of the city Jerusalem. The mill/reign will be fill with unbelievers,who else will be ruled with a rod of iron

Where in the Bible does it say the church is the bride of Christ?
If you are saying the church is only implied to be the bride of Christ,I will present also that the new Jerusalem coming down after the mill / reign is also called the bride of Christ
 

Trekson

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Hi Joshua, Your words: "The Bride is the church."

This is an assumption without scriptural verification. There is not one single verse that flat out states the church is the bride. Yes, there are some verses that uses marriage as an analogy but it would be wrong to read into them more than it is. While I agree that Christ is indeed the bridegroom, that does not automatically translate into the church being the bride of the bridegroom. There is not one parable with a wedding scenario that depicts the church as a bride. Also nowhere in scripture is there described a "great revival" that would count for an unnumberable amount of persons being saved as described in Rev. 7:9, however, the bible does speak of a great falling away, an apostacy, from the faith which is most likely a turning away of those who felt their church leaders lied to them by making a promise of "rescue" that wasn't kept at the time promised.


Sorry 7 angels, but the 144,000 will not be raptured. They will be part of the new-believing remnant of Israel that go into hiding for 1260 days. The "wings of an eagle" doesn't describe a rapture. The only logical answer to that is they are "air-lifted" via an airplane to a place of safety.
 
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ENOCH2010

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Trekson I will Amen the above post.

If you could bring yourself to dig deeper into the verse that pre-wrath doctrine hangs it hat on you could almost be a post-tribber.

The verse about man not being appointed to wrath goes all the way back to the garden
 

Trekson

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Hi Enoch, When one understands the great trib as being a short-term event within the context of the 70th week and realizes that the great trib will end well before the end of the 70th week and when one understands that, then the real meaning of post-trib as described by the early church fathers, you will find it is synonymous with modern day pre-wrath theology. Modern post trib theology is better described as post 70th week theology which isn't found in scripture. The rapture ends the great trib, thus the term post-trib can also be considered pre-wrath.
 

Joshua David

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I believe the first resurrection includes all that except the promise of the Lord,from the early saints that believed before the Lord was born up until the Lord comes back.
Where is this additional resurrection for the church you speak of written about?

The sheep/ goat judgement isn't for the raptured saints,the s/g judgement is for the people that live through the mill / reign outside the gates of the city Jerusalem. The mill/reign will be fill with unbelievers,who else will be ruled with a rod of iron

Does the first resurrection include the Saints that was raised when Jesus was? Does the first resurrection include the two witnesses? Either it includes everyone or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways. If it includes everyone, then it includes those Saints that were resurrected when Jesus was, although they are not an active participants. If it includes everyone, then it includes the two witnesses, although the two witnesses are not active participants, and If it includes everyone then it includes the church, although the church is not a active participant in it. If it doesn't include everyone, and it only includes those people who are actually resurrected at that time, then it doesn't include the church, because the church was raised before the tribulation.

If Paul said that we, speaking of the church are ALL changed, and the rapture happens at the end of the Tribulation, like you think it does then All the believers would be changed and be raptured. Where do the Sheep come from? Explain to me how the bible can call them Righteous, and that they have an inheritance, if they are not believers already. A person can only be declared righteous one way, by being a believer. That is how someone becomes righteous. Also if they have an inheritance, then they also must be believers.

So if they are believers, why would they not have been raptured and glorified, with the rest of the believers, even though they are considered righteous.



Where in the Bible does it say the church is the bride of Christ?
If you are saying the church is only implied to be the bride of Christ,I will present also that the new Jerusalem coming down after the mill / reign is also called the bride of Christ
Rev 19:6-9 6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”


(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”


Eph 5:29-30 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.


Joshua David
 

Joshua David

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Enoch,

That would make them unbelievers, which mean there were not righteous. Unless you can explain how someone can can be righteous and not be a believer.

Joshua David
 

ENOCH2010

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Joshua am I understanding you right,you believe no one will except the Lord as their savior during the mill/reign.
If that is the case,whats the point of the mill/reign?
 

Joshua David

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Enoch,

No, that is not what I think, I believe that there will be tons of people saved during the Millennium, but there will only be believers that enter to the start into it. When Jesus returns, he will gather all the nations ( all the people in the entire world that is still alive ) for the Sheep and Goat Judgments. If a person is a believer Jesus will place him on his right and declare him righteous. If the person did not give his heart to God, Jesus will place him on his left and declare him accursed. The Goats will go away to eternal torment, while the believers enter into the Kingdom.

These believers will enter into the Kingdom in their mortal bodies ( which can't happen if the rapture is post trib by the way ) and get married and have kids. These kids will be born with a sin nature, and will need to make their own decision to accept Jesus as their savior or not. Those kids that do not make their decision by the time they are a hundred, ( People will be living so long that 100 year olds will still be considered kids ) will die.

Now, if you can find some reference in the scriptures that imply that an unbeliever can be declared righteous, I might consider your position. But if you can't find any reference, then you have to explain how the rapture can still be post trib and not all the believers take part in the rapture. or you have to admit that it is possible that the rapture might not be at the end of the tribulation.

Joshua David
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Joshua David.

Joshua David said:
I think I wasn't very clear, I agree that there is a resurrection at the end of the tribulation. I just don't agree that this resurrection is the rapture of the church.

Rev 20:4-6 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


This resurrection includes Old Testament Saint that wasn't resurrected when Jesus was, any Tribulation Saint who died in the Tribulation, and any Israeli Jew that died during the Tribulation if they had accepted Jesus as their messiah before they died.

It does not include the Church would have already been glorified by this point.
These are too theologically-biased points that you (and others) are making. First, we don't know WHAT happened to the saints who were resurrected when Yeshua` died! Anything that anyone says about their fates is SPECULATION! Here's all we know:

Matthew 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
KJV


That's as much as we know! We don't KNOW what happened to them after they came out of the graves after His resurrection and went into the holy city! They arose when the earthquake occurred, but they didn't come into Jerusalem until after Yeshua`s resurrection. Where they went or what happened to them we aren't told! I suppose, it's possible that they are the "captivity that was led captive," but even that is speculation!

They could have been raised like Elezar (Lazarus) was raised so that they would have to die again, for the cohaniym (the priests) believed that he could be killed:

John 12:9-11
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
KJV


We aren't told that they received immortal, incorruptible bodies like that of Yeshua`. Yeshua` Himself is said to be the firstfruits, not necessarily those who came back to life at His death:

1 Corinthians 15:12-20
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
KJV


Second, the way that most who believe in the pretribulational Rapture put it, they will take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and say that a resurrection occurs when the saints (whom they call the "church") are raptured! My question is this: What gives pretribulational rapturists the right to say that this is a separate resurrection occurring BEFORE the resurrection that is noted in Revelation 20:4-6? THAT'S the issue! What separates the fate of the "church" from the fate of OT believers?! Can't these supposed two resurrections actually be just one? If one would simply abandon the idea that the believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians have to be whisked off to "Heaven" when they are raptured, they CAN be the same! Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 again carefully:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV


Where did Paul say that we go with Yeshua` back to "Heaven?" HE DIDN'T! We meet the Master "in the air," and we shall be "with the Master" from then on, but it doesn't say WHERE we are going from there! These are things every pretribulational rapturist must answer.


Joshua David said:
Actually the answer is not as simple as you might think.. A detailed study of the Judgment of the of the sheep and goats tells us that there are only three groups of people... The brethren, the righteous, and the cursed.

Matt 25:31-40 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Now I do believe that there will be believers who are alive at the end of the tribulation, and who enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies, which proves that the Rapture is different than the First Resurrection. There is only one way that a person can be considered Righteous, and that is by believing on the Lord. The sheep are all believers, and the goats are all unbelievers. Now if the Rapture happened at the exact time that the "First Resurrection" happened then all the believers would be changed...

1 Cor 15:50-54 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

So at the rapture, everyone who is a believer is changed, then there wouldn't be any believers to take part in the Sheep and Goat Judgments. Which means there wouldn't be any believers in their mortal bodies.


So please explain how this scenario fits into a post Tribulation rapture.

If you say that unbelievers will enter the kingdom, please show supporting scripture... I showed you where righteous believers will enter the kingdom, and I showed you where cursed unbelievers are sent away. This is the pattern throughout the entire bible, the parable of the sheep and goats, the parable of the wheat and tares, the children of Israel and the promise land in every instance, the wicked are sent away, or are killed, and the righteous enter into the promise land.

Show me one instance where the God allows the unrighteous, ( unsaved ) to enter in.

Joshua David
You are right about there being three categories of people in the Sheep/Goats trial; however, the thing most people miss is that these are PEOPLES, NATIONS, KINGDOMS, not individuals! This is not a judgment on individuals; this is a trial on NATIONS and how they AS A PEOPLE treated His brothers!

Another thing that messes people up about this judgment is that they somehow think that Yeshua` will begin His Kingdom reign already over the entire earth! That is NOT how the Scriptures have His Kingdom begin:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV


In this passage, Paul told us that there would be two stages to the Kingdom of God: The first stage is when the Messiah puts all of His enemies under His feet. The second stage is when He turns over the Kingdom to His Father, and His Father reigns over the Kingdom AFTER all judgment is complete.

We are told that the first stage takes a thousand years to complete - a Millennium - in Revelation 20. The second stage is forever and begins in Revelation 21.

So, given that His Kingdom is NOT all-inclusive (of the earth or of the world) at the beginning of the Messiah's reign, then there will be other nations upon the earth as the Messiah - then the King of Isra'el, haMelekh Yisra'el - GROWS His Kingdom! The earth, after all, is a very big place! And, He must reign, reign for a thousand years, as He subdues all of His enemies!

Scripture also tells us that His enemies can be subdued in different ways: Some can cowtow to Him and subordinate themselves to His rule willingly, but others will have to be conquered and will NOT submit to Him willingly! However, we are told that ALL will bow the knee to Him eventually!

A thousand years is a VERY long time! Think of how much has happened on earth over the last 1000 years: What was going on in civilization a thousand years ago? What was happening in 1013 A.D? Here are some of the things that Wikipedia says were happening then:

Europe
July – Sweyn Forkbeard, King of Denmark, having invaded England, is proclaimed as King within the Danelaw.
December 25 – Sweyn is proclaimed King all of England in London, forcing Æthelred the Unready to flee to Normandy.
Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor, signs a peace treaty at Merseburg with Duke Bolesław I Chrobry of Poland who recognizes him as overlord.
Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor, gathers an army at Augsburg to begin his second Italian military campaign.
The Jews are expelled from the caliphate of Córdoba.
The Poles withdraw from Pomerania (approximate date).

Asia
Estimation: Kaifeng, capital of China becomes the largest city of the world, taking the lead from Córdoba in Al-Andalus.
The largest of the Four Great Books of Song, the Song Dynasty Chinese encyclopedia Prime Tortoise of the Record Bureau (which had been compiled since 1005), is completed in 1,000 volumes of 9.4 million written Chinese characters.

By topic

Religion
Lyfing is appointed by Æthelred the Unready as Archbishop of Canterbury.
The Al-Hakim Mosque is completed in Cairo.
Beauvais changes from a county to a bishopric (approximate date).

Births
Sancha of León, wife of Ferdinand I of León
Rabbi Isaac Alfasi (Rif),Moroccan Talmudist and posek(d. 1103)

Deaths
Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, scholar of medicine
Antipope John XVI
Now, think of all the advancements that science has made over that time period, all the wars that have been fought, all the disasters that have occurred, all the governmental changes that have been made during the last 1000 years!

We are NEVER told that this will be a "time of peace and prosperity" for the whole earth; we are only told that this will be a "time of peace and prosperity" for HIS KINGDOM! Outside of His Kingdom, life goes on as usual! However, those who had dealings with His people - both the Jews and Isra'elis and Gentile believers, as well - will be judged for how they treated them! Those who treated them well (the sheep nations) will be given the opportunity to inherit His Kingdom. Those who mistreated them (the goat nations) will be resigned to be judged at the end of the Millennium. HOWEVER, again these are judgments upon a PEOPLE, not on individuals! Separately, individuals can still make their own choices to leave those countries and divorce themselves from the general fate of their PEOPLE!

Joshua David said:
If you want to define the "First Resurrection" to only include those saints who are raised at the end of the Tribulation, then I would say that's fine. Then I would say that the Church does not take part in the First resurrection, just as Jesus did not take part in the First Resurrection, and the Old Testament Saints did not take part in the First Resurrection, and the two witnesses did not take part in the First Resurrection.

The group that came out of the Great Tribulation would be the Tribulation Saints, who when added to the Old Testament Saints make up the group, Friends of the Bridegroom, that John the Baptist spoke of.

John 3:29 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.

The Bride is the church. The friends of the bridegroom, which would include the Old Testament Saints, and the Tribulation Saints. John died before Jesus, therefore he would be grouped with the Old Testament Prophets, and therefore would be a friend of the Bridegroom not the Bride.

The church was started on the Day of Pentecost, will end at the rapture, when her number is complete, then Israel's blindness will be removed.

Joshua David
No, the first resurrection IS in Revelation 20:4-6! The second resurrection is in Revelation 20:11-15, particularly in verse 13:

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
 
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tgwprophet

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Retrobyter wrote: " Where did Paul say that we go with Yeshua` back to "Heaven?" HE DIDN'T! We meet the Master "in the air," and we shall be "with the Master" from then on, but it doesn't say WHERE we are going from there! These are things every pretribulational rapturist must answer. "

I am in part agreement with you here... Those taken in the Rapture meet the Master in the air, and shall be with the Master from then on - agreed. Now where do they go from there? Well if they are to be with the Master and the Master is to be on earth reigning for 1,000 years.. so... then they come back to earth. I am not a pre-tribber but rather a pre-wrather. Pre-trib means the Mark of the Beast is useless.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, terry.

terry said:
Retrobyter wrote: " Where did Paul say that we go with Yeshua` back to "Heaven?" HE DIDN'T! We meet the Master "in the air," and we shall be "with the Master" from then on, but it doesn't say WHERE we are going from there! These are things every pretribulational rapturist must answer. "

I am in part agreement with you here... Those taken in the Rapture meet the Master in the air, and shall be with the Master from then on - agreed. Now where do they go from there? Well if they are to be with the Master and the Master is to be on earth reigning for 1,000 years.. so... then they come back to earth. I am not a pre-tribber but rather a pre-wrather. Pre-trib means the Mark of the Beast is useless.
Well, "pre-wrathers" or "midtribulational rapturists" also have to answer the same question. Where are we going from there? If you say to "Heaven," then you, too, have the same question presented to you: Where did Paul or ANYBODY say that we go with Yeshua` to "Heaven" following the harpazo?

To me, it makes much more sense to understand that, although the transformation of our bodies is done in the "jerk of an eye," the process of the harpazo - the "snatching away" of all the believers, whether they had been alive or dead - will take some time to complete. It's not - <POOF!> - instantaneous magic! It will take TIME to gather all of us and equip us with what we need to know and with the equipment and the horses we will have to be an effective army!

I see the Rapture (also called the harpazo) as a "simple" mass transit system. He sends out His messengers in all directions and they only converge again on the other side of the planet, and I believe that destination will be over the Holy Land. THAT'S where we will "meet Him in the air." (That's what I was trying to convey in my "3-D view of the rapture" avatar above.) However, we're talking about MILLIONS of people who have been believers all over the earth!

You're right, though, when you said, "Well if they are to be with the Master and the Master is to be on earth reigning for 1,000 years.. so... then they come back to earth." However, what if they never LEFT the earth as a planet, other than as planes do? We will simply go up in the air, travel to the Holy Land, and land again! While that puts the harpazo as more of a "posttribulational rapture," again, this will take TIME to accomplish! I see the seven bowls of judgment occurring rapidly, like the gattling gun of a Spit Fire, as the Messiah comes to rescue His people.
 

7angels

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Retrobyter said:
Second, the way that most who believe in the pretribulational Rapture put it, they will take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and say that a resurrection occurs when the saints (whom they call the "church") are raptured! My question is this: What gives pretribulational rapturists the right to say that this is a separate resurrection occurring BEFORE the resurrection that is noted in Revelation 20:4-6? THAT'S the issue! What separates the fate of the "church" from the fate of OT believers?! Can't these supposed two resurrections actually be just one? If one would simply abandon the idea that the believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians have to be whisked off to "Heaven" when they are raptured, they CAN be the same! Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 again carefully:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV


Where did Paul say that we go with Yeshua` back to "Heaven?" HE DIDN'T! We meet the Master "in the air," and we shall be "with the Master" from then on, but it doesn't say WHERE we are going from there! These are things every pretribulational rapturist must answer.
ok let me try and answer your question here. since you seem sincere in knowing the truth i will tell you what i believe. this may take a while since i have to look up scripture to support my claims. lets start by understanding the seven things necessary in order to understand the end time prophesy. these are 1) The Sequence of Major End Time Events, 2) The Destiny of the Three Components of Humanity, 3) The Purpose and Length of the Great Tribulation, 4) The Purpose of the Rapture, 5) The Conditions Surrounding the 2nd Coming, 6) The Purpose and Length of the Millennium, and 7) Eternity.

we will start with the Sequence of Major End Time Events, the best way to figure it out is to perform what the business world sometimes calls a back scheduling exercise. It involves going to the very end of a process and identifying the final outcome. Then you list all the things that have to happen to produce that outcome. Then you put them in reverse order, backing into the present. It’s simpler than it sounds, and much simpler in prophecy than in business because there are many fewer events to organize. We’ll list the major events first, then we’ll organize them.

Almost everyone knows about the 2nd Coming and Eternity, and many also have heard of the Rapture of the Church and the Great Tribulation. But there’s also the Millennial Kingdom, Daniel’s 70th Week, and the Battles of Ezekiel 38-39, Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17; a total of nine major events yet to come.

We all think of Eternity as the final outcome, and so starting at the end means we begin there. But the last major event described in any detail in the Bible is the Kingdom Age or Millennium. It’s the Lord’s 1000 year reign on Earth, which is distinguished from and precedes Eternity. The Millennium obviously can’t begin till after the Second Coming, because that’s when the Lord returns to establish it. And according to Matt. 24:29-30 the Second Coming won’t happen till the end of the Great Tribulation. And that can’t happen till the anti-Christ stands in the Temple in Israel declaring himself to be God. (2 Thes. 2:4) That’s the event Jesus warned Israel to look for as the Great Tribulation’s opening salvo. He called it “The Abomination of Desolation” in Matt. 24:15-21. Daniel 9:27 indicates it will happen in the middle of the last seven year period, which scholars call Daniel’s 70th Week. But the Abomination can’t happen until there’s a Temple. There hasn’t been a Temple in Israel since 70AD and there won’t be one until the Jews officially decide they need one. They won’t need one until God reinstates their Old Covenant relationship because the Temple’s only purpose is to worship Him according to Old Covenant requirements. This will signal the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. The 70th Week can’t begin until the Battle of Ezekiel 38-39 is won because God will use that battle to awaken Israel and reinstate His covenant with them. In Romans 11:25 Paul said Israel has been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in, a reference to the rapture of the Church, after which Israel will be saved. That means the rapture has to happen before the Battle of Ezekiel 38.

So far when we put the Sequence of Major Events in its proper order, it looks like this:
The Rapture of the Church,
The Battle of Ezekiel 38,
Daniel’s 70th week begins,
The Great Tribulation,
The 2nd Coming,
The Millennium,
Eternity.

To those who read Scripture as it’s written, only two of the events in this sequence are subject to debate as to timing. These are the Rapture of the Church and the Battle of Ezekiel 38, the first two on our list. They’re the ones I said are less obvious.

So lets find out why they have to be where I’ve placed them in the sequence. Maintaining our back schedule mentality, we’ll begin with Ezekiel’s battle and work back to the Rapture.

“And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward.

Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, because I sent them into exile among the nations and then assembled them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore. And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.” (Ezek 39:21-22, 28-29)

The Lord has declared in no uncertain terms that He’s going to use Ezekiel’s battle to spiritually awaken His people and call them to Israel from all over the world. This will result in the reinstatement of their Old Covenant relationship, reviving Daniel’s long dormant “70-Weeks” prophecy for its final seven years and requiring that a Temple be constructed. Without one there’s no way for them to keep His covenant.

This was proven once before in history during the Babylonian captivity. When Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the 1st Temple, Israel ceased to exist. But as soon as Cyrus the Persian defeated Babylon and freed the Jews, they returned to Israel and began building a Temple before they did anything else. Without a Temple there’s no sacrifice for sin, and without that sacrifice, Jews cannot approach God.

Both the Old and New Testaments refer to a Temple in Israel at the End of the Age. The only reason for a Temple is to perform Old Covenant ordinances. But building one today would cause such an uproar that no one in his right mind would consider it.

Only a unified demand from the people of Israel accompanied by quiet acceptance from their Moslem neighbors would make the construction of a Temple even thinkable. Sound impossible? Ezekiel’s battle results in both a Jewish nation re-awakened to the presence of God in their national life and an utterly defeated Moslem attack force in no position to resist. The perfect conditions will finally exist to start building. For these reasons, Ezekiel’s battle has to take place on the threshold of Daniel’s 70th week. Now why does the Rapture of the Church have to precede Ezekiel’s battle?

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25)

According to Ezek. 37:7-10, Israel would be reborn first in unbelief. Paul said they’ll remain partially estranged from God until the gentile Church reaches its full complement (predetermined number) and arrives at its destination. (The Greek word translated “fullness” in Romans 11:25 was a nautical term often used to describe the full complement of crew and cargo necessary to accomplish a ship’s mission. The ship couldn’t sail till those requirements were met. The one translated “come in” means to arrive at a designated place.)

Then the veil will be pulled back as God reveals Himself to them again. As we saw above, He will use Ezekiel’s battle to begin this by renewing the Old Covenant with them, later transitioning Israel from the Old Covenant to the New toward the end of the Great Tribulation (Zech 12:10). Remember, if they didn’t go back to the Old covenant first, they wouldn’t need a Temple. He’s picking them up where they left off.

After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’ (Acts 15:13-18)

It was about 20 years after the cross. The controversy of the day was whether Gentiles had to become Jews before they could become Christians. And if not, what would become of Israel? In effect, the Lord’s brother James explained to the Apostles and others present at the Council of Jerusalem that Israel was being temporarily set aside while God focused on the Church. After He had taken this “people for His name” (Christians) from among the Gentiles he would return and rebuild His Temple. The Greek words translated taken means to carry something away or remove it from its place, so the passage implies that He would take the Church somewhere and then come back to rebuild the Temple, restore Israel, and give what’s left of mankind one final chance to seek Him.

These three Bible prophecies make it clear that as the End of the Age approaches, God will begin preparing Israel to be His once more. But He won’t be exclusively focused on them until He has finished building the Church and has taken us to our appointed place. And where is that? In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:2-3) (He didn’t promise to come back to be with us here where we are, but to take us there, where He is.) After that He would see to Israel’s reawakening and the construction of their Temple.

Throughout Scripture, the Lord seems to be involved with either Israel or the Church, but never both at the same time. James bears this out in his pronouncement regarding the Church in Acts 15. All the leaders of the early church now knew that once God had accomplished His goals with the church, He would turn again to Israel, and that would signal the end of the Church Age.

There are two critical points to remember here. The first is that the Church didn’t end the Age of Law, but only interrupted it 7 years short of its scheduled completion. Those seven years, called the 70th Week of Daniel, have to be fulfilled to complete the Old Covenant. And the second is that the Old and New covenants, as practiced in Israel and the Church, are theologically incompatible, and therefore the two can only be on Earth at the same time while Israel is out of covenant. For Israel to return to the Lord, the Church has to be gone.

For this reason, the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and the reunification of Jerusalem in 1967 are seen as the most important signs of all that the End of the Age is upon us.

Also, there are two events we haven’t put into the sequence yet, and that’s because they aren’t easy to locate there. These are the battles of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17. When Israel wins these two battles all their next door enemies will be defeated and they’ll enter into a brief period of peace that sets the stage for Ezekiel’s Battle (Ezekiel 38:11). They’re called battles instead of wars which means they’ll be of short duration and can happen within a fairly short span of time. They can come either before or after the Rapture but do have to happen before the Battle of Ezekiel 38 takes place.
Retrobyter said:
You are right about there being three categories of people in the Sheep/Goats trial; however, the thing most people miss is that these are PEOPLES, NATIONS, KINGDOMS, not individuals! This is not a judgment on individuals; this is a trial on NATIONS and how they AS A PEOPLE treated His brothers!

Another thing that messes people up about this judgment is that they somehow think that Yeshua` will begin His Kingdom reign already over the entire earth! That is NOT how the Scriptures have His Kingdom begin:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV


In this passage, Paul told us that there would be two stages to the Kingdom of God: The first stage is when the Messiah puts all of His enemies under His feet. The second stage is when He turns over the Kingdom to His Father, and His Father reigns over the Kingdom AFTER all judgment is complete.

We are told that the first stage takes a thousand years to complete - a Millennium - in Revelation 20. The second stage is forever and begins in Revelation 21.

So, given that His Kingdom is NOT all-inclusive (of the earth or of the world) at the beginning of the Messiah's reign, then there will be other nations upon the earth as the Messiah - then the King of Isra'el, haMelekh Yisra'el - GROWS His Kingdom! The earth, after all, is a very big place! And, He must reign, reign for a thousand years, as He subdues all of His enemies!

Scripture also tells us that His enemies can be subdued in different ways: Some can cowtow to Him and subordinate themselves to His rule willingly, but others will have to be conquered and will NOT submit to Him willingly! However, we are told that ALL will bow the knee to Him eventually!

A thousand years is a VERY long time! Think of how much has happened on earth over the last 1000 years: What was going on in civilization a thousand years ago? What was happening in 1013 A.D? Here are some of the things that Wikipedia says were happening then:


Now, think of all the advancements that science has made over that time period, all the wars that have been fought, all the disasters that have occurred, all the governmental changes that have been made during the last 1000 years!

We are NEVER told that this will be a "time of peace and prosperity" for the whole earth; we are only told that this will be a "time of peace and prosperity" for HIS KINGDOM! Outside of His Kingdom, life goes on as usual! However, those who had dealings with His people - both the Jews and Isra'elis and Gentile believers, as well - will be judged for how they treated them! Those who treated them well (the sheep nations) will be given the opportunity to inherit His Kingdom. Those who mistreated them (the goat nations) will be resigned to be judged at the end of the Millennium. HOWEVER, again these are judgments upon a PEOPLE, not on individuals! Separately, individuals can still make their own choices to leave those countries and divorce themselves from the general fate of their PEOPLE!


No, the first resurrection IS in Revelation 20:4-6! The second resurrection is in Revelation 20:11-15, particularly in verse 13:

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
i started to explain my position when it occurred to me that if i showed how to understand end time prophesy that it will get more people to start questioning their own beliefs and see if they concur with the word. the reason for this is non-believers are wondering if the end is near.

What is surprising is how little most Christians actually know about prophecy, especially since by some accounts it comprises nearly 40% of the Bible’s content, more than any other topic.

With few exceptions seminaries don’t teach it, so preachers don’t preach it. And therefore Christians don’t learn it. In all my years as a denominational Christian, I never once heard a message explaining the importance of prophecy to a believer’s walk with the Lord. And yet the Bible devotes more space to End Times Prophecy than it does to all the teachings of Jesus.
When Christians are asked why they don’t study prophecy more seriously the most common reasons given are 1) because it scares them, and 2) because it confuses them. Both responses are borne out of a lack of understanding. For the believer, prophecy is neither scary nor confusing but the key to understanding God’s plan for man.

i just want everyone concerned to be able to make their own well informed choices about prophesy.

God bless
 

Joshua David

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Retrobyter,



These are too theologically-biased points that you (and others) are making. First, we don't know WHAT happened to the saints who were resurrected when Yeshua` died! Anything that anyone says about their fates is SPECULATION! Here's all we know:
You make a very valid point, I will give you this one. And let me remind everyone when I started this, I did say that this one point was the one that I struggled with the most. I did say that out of my entire case, this one part was my weakest argument. But I did my best to answer your question as best as I could, and as well as I understood it. Also I think we can all agree that the two witnesses are not raptured at the end of the Tribulation, therefore we have at the very least one example of people being resurrected before the resurrection at the end of the tribulation.





Second, the way that most who believe in the pretribulational Rapture put it, they will take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and say that a resurrection occurs when the saints (whom they call the "church") are raptured! My question is this: What gives pretribulational rapturists the right to say that this is a separate resurrection occurring BEFORE the resurrection that is noted in Revelation 20:4-6? THAT'S the issue! What separates the fate of the "church" from the fate of OT believers?! Can't these supposed two resurrections actually be just one? If one would simply abandon the idea that the believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians have to be whisked off to "Heaven" when they are raptured, they CAN be the same! Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17again carefully:
Excuse me??? What give us the RIGHT??? So you are saying that we don't have the right to study the word and come to a conclusion on our own? Are you kidding me? :angry: So what are we suppose to do, just give up studying the word and come sit at your feet while you dispense pearls of wisdom? As a spirit-filled child of God, who has approached his bible study in prayer and with a deep desire to know the truth, I have as much RIGHT to come to my own conclusions, as you do. Now.. that being said, have I made mistakes in the past? Of course. I am just a little more truthful about this than most people are. The truth is we all are making some assumptions, we are all trying to find the truth.

For instance, you have made quite a few assumptions yourself. And I will be more than happy to point them out to you as I go through the rest of your post. :p



What gives pretribulational rapturists the right to say that this is a separate resurrection occurring BEFORE the resurrection that is noted in Revelation 20:4-6? THAT'S the issue! What separates the fate of the "church" from the fate of OT believers?!
What gives us the right is the fact that Paul says that in Rom 11, that Israel's spiritual blindness will continue until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The next question is obviously come into what? Well if we look at the entire chapter of Rom 11, we find that Paul was contrasting Israel with the Gentile Church. So the answer is that Israel's blindness will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the Church. Once the church has reached the number that God has decreed, it is then that the rapture will happen. Rom 11 states that the blindness can not be removed until the full number of the Church has been complete.

Once you understand that Israel and the Church are two totally separate entities, then it starts to come clear. Israel and the church has always been separate. And God has dealt with them differently. Israel lived under the Law, the church lives under Grace. ( This is why I can wake up and enjoy me some good old fashion bacon and eggs in the morning if I want to. ) Israel was saved through obedience to the Law and a faith in a coming redeemer, the Church is saved by Grace through Faith in a risen redeemer.

Israel and the church has also been given different promises and blessings. Israel was given the land of Israel, the church was never promised the Land, Israel was comprised entirely from the lineage of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the church is comprised of both Jew and Gentiles. The church is sealed with the Holy Spirit, no one in Israel was ever described as being sealed with the Holy Spirit Israel has an earthly destiny in the land from Jerusalem. The church has a heavenly destiny in the New Jerusalem.

I am sure that I missed quite a few, but that was the ones that I could think off the top of my head.



Where did Paul say that we go with Yeshua` back to "Heaven?" HE DIDN'T! We meet the Master "in the air," and we shall be "with the Master" from then on, but it doesn't say WHERE we are going from there! These are things every pretribulational rapturist must answer.
Paul may not have mentioned where we are going because he expected us to know the answer, because Jesus himself told us.

Let's look at the end of John 13 and the beginning of John 14.

John 13:33-38 33 Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come,’ so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
36 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?”
Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”
37 Peter said to Him, “Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake.”
38 Jesus answered him, “Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times.

John 14:1-4 14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

So my question to everyone else who believes in a Post-trib rapture, if Jesus told his disciples that he was going away, where was he going? TO HEAVEN!!!!!

He was going to go prepare for us a place? What place is he preparing? The New Jerusalem! Where is that right now? IN HEAVEN!!!

Jesus said that in his Father's house are many mansions? Where is his Father's house? Who is his Father? God Where does God live? IN HEAVEN!!!

Now look Jesus' answer in John 13:36 ... “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.” Follow him where? To Heaven!!!


I mean how clearer can the scriptures be? Jesus told us multiple times in just a few verses, that Jesus himself will come to receive us unto himself, and we will follow him to the place that he has prepared for us in HEAVEN!!!

Any 5 yr old that reads these verses will tell you exactly what I just said.



You are right about there being three categories of people in the Sheep/Goats trial; however, the thing most people miss is that these are PEOPLES, NATIONS, KINGDOMS, not individuals! This is not a judgment on individuals; this is a trial on NATIONS and how they AS A PEOPLE treated His brothers!
This is another one of your assumptions. This is not what the scriptures say.


Matt 25:32 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

When it says that all the nations are gathered before him, it just mean that all the people from all the nations, or another way of saying it is that everyone who is still alive will be gather before him, then he will separate the people one from another. that seems like individuals to me, and just to make sure that he is clear is compares it to a shepherd separating his sheep. Now when a shepherd separates his sheep from his goats, it does it individually. This animal is a sheep, it goes here, this animal is a goat, it goes there....

So you are still stuck with the individual sheep, either being a believer or not a believer. If the sheep is a believer, then why wasn't he raptured? If he wasn't a believer, why does the Lord call him Righteous?

These are the questions that every Post Trib believer must answer!!!!

Now as far as Jesus not ruling the entire Earth, I totally disagree with your interpretation... When Jesus returns, He returns as the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords. His rule will not be questioned, his authority is absolute. This is the entire reason that the sheep and goat judgment occurs, because the only people that well be left to enter into his Kingdom are believers. Believers in immortal bodies, who will not procreate, and believers in mortal bodies that will procreate and replenish the earth.

Yes, the last enemy is death, and this enemy will not be defeated until the end of the Millennium, People will die in the Millennium, if a hundred year old child does not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior, he will die. All the people that rise up against Christ at the end of the Tribulation will be killed by Fire from Heaven.

But when the 1,000 years is over, Jesus will defeat his final enemy Death, and in eternity, Death will not darken his Kingdom ever again.



Terry,



Pre-trib means the Mark of the Beast is useless.
In what way?

Joshua David
 

7angels

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Joshua David

i have a question for you. who do you believe the sheep and goats are that Jesus separates between? do you believe they are unbelievers and believers or overcomers in Christ and then the rest of the believers or what?

God bless
 

Trekson

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Hi Joshua, Your words: "So you are still stuck with the individual sheep, either being a believer or not a believer. If the sheep is a believer, then why wasn't he raptured? If he wasn't a believer, why does the Lord call him Righteous? "

Imo, the separation in Matt. 25 isn't based on belief or unbelief, it is based solely upon works, specifically, how the "least of these" were treated by them during the great trib and beyond. I believe the "least of these" are made of of both Jews and christians who will undergo the time of Jacob's trouble and the great trib, respectively.

This is also why I don't believe the group in Rev. 19:8 is the church. "Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints
.)"


This is a group separated upon works whereas the church's robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14).
 

Joshua David

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7,

I believe that the scriptures show that the sheep are the believers, who, because they believe Jesus is who he said he is, and the Jews are who the bible said they are, help the Jews out, even at the threat of their own life.

Let be clear here.... The sheep are not saved because they showed kindness to the Jews, they showed kindness to the Jews because they were saved. This is the reason they are called righteous, and this is the reason that they qualify to enter into the Kingdom. The sheep would correspond with the five wise virgins.

The goats are not accursed because they did not show kindness to the Jews, but the did not show Kindness to the Jews because they did not believe Jesus was who he said he was, because if they did, they would have known that the Jews were the brethern of Christ, and acted accordingly.

Just like today, the Sheep are not saved by their works, but by what they believed. This results in good works being performed. It is what we believe that is important. Our works are just the evidence of what we believe.

It is apparent to me that the goats are unbelievers because they are sent away into eternal torment.

I hope this answered your question.

Joshua David


Trekson said:
Hi Joshua, Your words: "So you are still stuck with the individual sheep, either being a believer or not a believer. If the sheep is a believer, then why wasn't he raptured? If he wasn't a believer, why does the Lord call him Righteous? "

Imo, the separation in Matt. 25 isn't based on belief or unbelief, it is based solely upon works, specifically, how the "least of these" were treated by them during the great trib and beyond. I believe the "least of these" are made of of both Jews and christians who will undergo the time of Jacob's trouble and the great trib, respectively.

This is also why I don't believe the group in Rev. 19:8 is the church. "Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints
.)"
This is a group separated upon works whereas the church's robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14).
This Judgment is a Salvational Judgment. We know that this is true because of the outcomes of the Judgments.

Look at verse 26 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” These are the same judgments and blessings of sinners and believers.

Verse 26 tells us that the Goats are sent away to eternal punishment, what the sheep receive eternal life. These Judgment are individual as well as eternal, therefore they must be Salvational.

But I will agree with you on one thing, and it was something that I shied away from because it gets into a whole different can of worms....

These verses also imply a pretribulation rapture, because they prove that the Tribulation operates in a different Dispensation than the Dispensation of Grace, or the Church Age, because obedience, and works will again be required for Salvation, just as it was During the age of Law.

Therefore the Church that operates completely within the Age of Grace must have been completed and removed from the earth by the Rapture before the Tribulation starts.

But that opens the can of Law vs Grace, OSAS, and others that Christians love to beat each other up over.

So while I tried to stay away from that, I have to say that I agree with you, but not for the reasons that you think.

Joshua David