Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

Trekson,

Well, I believe it to be typical pre-trib interpretation, instead of misunderstanding. Just as you have your pre-wrath interpretation and other have a Post trib interpretation.

I know the pre-wrath doctrine very well, as I have studied it extensively, as well as the Post-Tribulation doctrine. And actually, I use the term '7 year tribulation', because it is a term that is widely known and accepted by most Christians. Even if you disagree with me, you usually understand what I am referring to when I use the term 7 year Tribulation. The term that I like the best is either the 70th week of Daniel or The Time of Jacob's Trouble.

To really define what I believe concerning the 70th week, we would have to go into Covenantal Dispensationalism. Which again is getting into that whole other can or worms things. But suffice to say, the entire 70th week of Daniel is focused entirely on the God restoring the Nation of Israel, and punishing the Nations of the world. Just as the Nation's of the world was not the focus of the Age of Law, and they were mentioned, is when the nation was dealing with the nation of Israel. This is the same focus that is going to be going on during the Tribulation.

The focus is off of the church, and entirely on the nation of Israel. Look at how much of Revelation is focused on Israel. God is slowly removing the blindness off of Israel, during the tribulation, and therefore the church must be gone.

If you disagree, then what is Rom 11 talking about?



Joshua David

Joshua are not the 2 witnesses going to be included in the called out group (the church).

No, I do not consider the 2 witnesses to be part of the church. I personally believe that the two witnesses with either be Moses and Elijah, or two Jewish men that have not been revealed yet. But I am leaning strongly toward Moses and Elijah.

But either way, they would be part of True Israel, not the church.

Joshua David

Joshua true Israel is the church. Israel isn't grafted into the called out group(church) the called out group is grafted into Israel and their promise of a never ending kingdom of David

I am very scared for people that think the church is something special and Israel must be punished

Enoch,

Joshua true Israel is the church. Israel isn't grafted into the called out group(church) the called out group is grafted into Israel and their promise of a never ending kingdom of David

I am very scared for people that think the church is something special and Israel must be punished

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Actually, if you read Rom 11 carefully, you will find out that both Israel ( the natural branches ) and the church ( the wild branches ) are grafted into the same vine ( Jesus ). The wild branches do not become natural, and the natural branches do not become wild. In other word, Israel does not become the church, neither does the Church become Israel.

This is perhaps the most important key to understanding the entire bible. No where in the bible is the church ever called Israel, neither is Israel ever called the church. If you still disagree, then please show me the verses.



Is the church special? Absolutely. But not because of anything that they have done. They are special because God will use us to showcase his kindness and grace.

Eph 2:3-9 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Just as the Age of Law showcased God's holiness, the Age of Grace will showcase his kindness.

Does Israel need to be punished? That is up to God because they are his people, and the Old Testament scripture are full of different prophets telling the Children of Israel to heed the word of God, and if they don't, He will scatter them among the nations. But he also tells them that he will regather them, and ultimately he will save them.

Israel is beloved by God. I would never speak ill against Israel, but God is the one who speaks of a terrible time coming, a time of trouble and darkness.


Just as a side note, what you do think of my response to Retrobyter about Jesus himself telling us that he will carry us to Heaven?

Joshua David

Joshua David, you asked in what way is the Mark of the Beast useless if the rapture is pre-Trib. Ok when determining this aspect, consider that as others teach... the church is raptured pre-trib.. These cosider the church to be the body of bel;eivers meaning Christians (this is not what I teach) so if all the Christians are taken it leaves only non-believers and Jews - ( that will become believers) Since all that is left is non-believer there is no need for any mark to distinguish between believers (that no longer exist) and non-believers... the only dividing rod needed is between Jews and non-Jews and since the Jews will be in israel, no mark is needed, for every origin is a given... Jews and everone else.

When one considers that NOT ALL Christians are taken in the rapture and the rapture does not happen pre-trib.. a different light is discovered. The First half of Tribulation is not a time of trouble...it is the time Satan tries to "buy" souls. the Mark is not yet manditory... so one can choose it or not without ramification. Only after the Image of the Beast is given life does the Mark of the Beast become manditory. When one considers the rapture not being for all the Christians but rather for Christians who could not deny the Beast's Mark even if they wanted to - say, aperson with old-timers, a person with downs syndrome, a person in prison - all beleivers with no option to deny the mark.. and there is of course, allot more that fall in this category. Then there are rewards for those who are be-headed for not taking the Mark of the beast and These people ARE Believers and Did Not Go in any Rapture. They will reign with Christ 1000 years! More-over there are thoise that get mad at God becasue they were not taken. So too will there be those angered because they were not taken before Tribulation begins. (I did say "angered" meaning short of mad)

Although there are allot of Cliche's I disagree with there are a few I do agree with and... "Hope for the Best...prepare for the Worst"
Is one I agree with... and I sure wish the Churches would teach that instead of teaching every Christian will go in the Rapture before Tribulation begins. Teaching the rapture takes place before Tribulations begins and that All Christians go in the rapture is a pew filler and a tithe enhancer, but also it is an act of deciet.

I believe heaven comes here,not us go there. The description of the new city Jerusalem that John saw coming down out of the sky, is the heaven that most people believe they are going to,but the Bible says it is coming here.So I have to go with the Bible

Joshua David, now I will probably get both your dismay and attention and make you think i am nuts, perhaps. But the Two Witnesses are neither Moses Elijah, enoch or John. They are not even Jewish, but rather they are Gentiles. As Gentiles they are proof the Gentile Christians are grafted unto the vine of the Jews. They are the only actual proof given before Armageddon. The reward God gave enoch and Elijah and even possibly Moses of not tasting death is NOT retracted by having them come back as the Two Witnesses... Who would think God gives a reward then, and even though no act was comitted that could require retraction of that reward... God would take it back? I have allot more information for validation that the Two Witnesses are not Jews. What I just stated really should be sufficient but for the nuts aspect... I know them personally and extremely well and see at least one of them every day. They did not tell me they are the Two Witnesses... God showed me... and had you been with me you would have seen it too.

I have posted here many times...so once more will not hurt... If anyone can provide a proper test for the Two Witnesses prior to their time of power... I will reveal who they are and they will come forward to take the test... it is that simple, and yet that hard.

Even not yet em-powered I have seen visions one of them has claimed has been told ahead of time and was always fulfilled. But the visions were given without being asked for - yet the visions have never been in error.
However, these visions have always been on a personal note not a world event prophetic vision.

Terry,

Let me say brother, that I feel neither dismay at you, and nor do I think that you are nuts. And while I do think that you are wrong, keep in mind that comes from a person who is completely aware that he is fallible, and could be wrong in what he believes. Therefore, unless there is a verse that spells out that the witnesses are Jews and not gentiles, ( which there is not ) I will try as best as I can to keep and open mind and consider what you have to say.

Although I will make a point in disagreeing with you on one point. I am assuming that you are using Rom 11 as a basis for believing that Gentile Christians are grafted into the vine of the Jews, If you will go back and reread Rom 11 again carefully you will find out that the Jews are not the Vine, they are the natural branches that draw their substance from the vine, who is Jesus. The Gentile Christians, who are the Wild Branches are not grafted into the Natural Branches, they are grafted into the vine. Neither is the Natural Branches grafted into the Wild Branches. The Natural Branches that are not broken off are still attached to the vine, while the Wild branches are grafted into the Vine along with the Natural Branches.

This is the reason that it is important to realize that the Church ( Wild Branches ) do not become Israel ( The Natural Branches ), True Israel, or Spiritual Israel as it is sometimes called represents the Natural Branches that remained faithful to God. Neither does Israel become the church. They are separate.

Joshua David

Hi Joshua, I do not see any substancial problem with your understanding and see not reason it is not acceptable.

Trekson,

I definitely believe that the pretrib doctrine has as it's foundation, Dispensationalism, in particular Covenantal Dispensationalism, which I believe. So if you think that you can disprove Covenantal Dispensationalism through scripture, then by all means, I'm listening.

I did want to comment on something though.

I think the problem lies in the belief that God can't deal with Israel and the church at the same time. The fact is, He's been doing it since Pentecost.

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I disagree with this statement. When Israel refused to accept Jesus Christ as their messiah, God did what he had promised to Israel that he would do, and that was to scatter them among the nation, as he turned his focus onto the Gentile Church.

The way that we can understand this is by looking at the Focus that Jesus had on Israel during his earthly ministry. He refused to allow his disciples to go to Gentile cities, and to only allow them to go to the cities of the children of Israel. He was hesitant to heal the Canaanite woman's daughter because she wasn't part of the Children of Israel.

Now the same focus is on the Church, only general known as the Gentile Church. Now is it called the Gentile church because Jews can not be in it? No. It is called the Gentile church because it consists 'mostly' of Gentiles, although Jews are as free to join as anyone else.

Here is the thing to understand about the church, while the church is active on the earth and before it reaches it's full number, anyone who get truly saved and becomes born again becomes a member of the Church, and becomes a NEW CREATURE. As far as God is concerned they are no longer considered Jews or Gentiles.

Joshua David

Shalom, 7angels.

7angels said:

ok let me try and answer your question here. since you seem sincere in knowing the truth i will tell you what i believe. this may take a while since i have to look up scripture to support my claims. lets start by understanding the seven things necessary in order to understand the end time prophesy. these are 1) The Sequence of Major End Time Events, 2) The Destiny of the Three Components of Humanity, 3) The Purpose and Length of the Great Tribulation, 4) The Purpose of the Rapture, 5) The Conditions Surrounding the 2nd Coming, 6) The Purpose and Length of the Millennium, and 7) Eternity.

we will start with the Sequence of Major End Time Events, the best way to figure it out is to perform what the business world sometimes calls a back scheduling exercise. It involves going to the very end of a process and identifying the final outcome. Then you list all the things that have to happen to produce that outcome. Then you put them in reverse order, backing into the present. It’s simpler than it sounds, and much simpler in prophecy than in business because there are many fewer events to organize. We’ll list the major events first, then we’ll organize them.

Almost everyone knows about the 2nd Coming and Eternity, and many also have heard of the Rapture of the Church and the Great Tribulation. But there’s also the Millennial Kingdom, Daniel’s 70th Week, and the Battles of Ezekiel 38-39, Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17; a total of nine major events yet to come.

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Forgive me, but I'm going to break in here and comment. I don't believe in all nine of these as "a total of nine major events yet to come." Taking the project management approach, you know that there is a difference between a task and a milestone, right? In mathematics, it's the difference between a line segment and a point. Well, just as in mathematics, it is impossible to draw a true point. We put a dot on the paper, but no matter how small we draw the dot, the pencil lead or the ink actually still has three dimensions. If we "zoom in" on that dot, effectively changing the scale of the graph, we can see that even the points have lengths (as well as widths and depths). In the same way, even with a Gantt chart, one can zoom in on a milestone and see that it, too, has a length of time to accomplish. As such, it, too, can be considered a short task.

My point here is that some of the "events" to which you allude, such as the "Rapture," which are commonly thought to be milestones, can be seen as tasks or time periods, and those periods can be longer than we expect. Furthermore, even the "beginning points" and the "ending points" of a task or a time period can be "fuzzy," not existing as a true, black/white toggle, but rather a slow graying from white to black or vice versa. For instance, how long did it take for the "churches" to evolve (devolve?) from a nearly purely Jewish entity to an almost exclusive Gentile entity where they actually took an anti-Semitic stance? It didn't take long! Less than 200 years! However, the change was NOT instantaneous. What makes anyone think that the reverse will be sudden? Pretribulational rapturists have this "event" down to a magically, miraculous ... <POOF!> ... we're gone! Then, God instantaneously changes His focus from the "Church" to Isra'el.

Furthermore, some people believe that the Tribulation and Dani'el's 70th Week are synonymous, claiming that the Great Tribulation is the last half of the Week! Others feel that the Millennium is synonymous with the Church Age while others feel that the Millennium is synonymous with Eternity! All I'm saying is that it may not be as "cut and dried" as you think!

7angels said:

We all think of Eternity as the final outcome, and so starting at the end means we begin there. But the last major event described in any detail in the Bible is the Kingdom Age or Millennium. It’s the Lord’s 1000 year reign on Earth, which is distinguished from and precedes Eternity. The Millennium obviously can’t begin till after the Second Coming, because that’s when the Lord returns to establish it. And according to Matt. 24:29-30 the Second Coming won’t happen till the end of the Great Tribulation.

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I can agree with you to this point, although you should know that there are some on this forum who would disagree with you regarding the placement of the Millennium, as I mentioned above.

7angels said:

And that can’t happen till the anti-Christ stands in the Temple in Israel declaring himself to be God. (2 Thes. 2:4) That’s the event Jesus warned Israel to look for as the Great Tribulation’s opening salvo. He called it “The Abomination of Desolation” in Matt. 24:15-21. Daniel 9:27 indicates it will happen in the middle of the last seven year period, which scholars call Daniel’s 70th Week. But the Abomination can’t happen until there’s a Temple. There hasn’t been a Temple in Israel since 70AD and there won’t be one until the Jews officially decide they need one. They won’t need one until God reinstates their Old Covenant relationship because the Temple’s only purpose is to worship Him according to Old Covenant requirements.

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Here, I must EMPHATICALLY disagree with you. I do NOT see the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 as the fulfillment of Dani'el 9:27 in any way, and I see the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20 as the fulfillment of Dani'el 9:27, but not equated with 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Here's why: Some of what Yeshua` talked about in His Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century, and His words at the end of chapter 23 of Matthew, namely Matthew 23:37-39, were in partial fulfillment of Dani'el 9:27 because the "he" of Dani'el 9:27 is the "Messiah" of Dani'el 9:26, not the "prince that shall come."

7angels said:

This will signal the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. The 70th Week can’t begin until the Battle of Ezekiel 38-39 is won because God will use that battle to awaken Israel and reinstate His covenant with them. In Romans 11:25 Paul said Israel has been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in, a reference to the rapture of the Church, after which Israel will be saved. That means the rapture has to happen before the Battle of Ezekiel 38. So far when we put the Sequence of Major Events in its proper order, it looks like this:

The Rapture of the Church,
The Battle of Ezekiel 38,
Daniel’s 70th week begins,
The Great Tribulation,
The 2nd Coming,
The Millennium,
Eternity.

To those who read Scripture as it’s written, only two of the events in this sequence are subject to debate as to timing. These are the Rapture of the Church and the Battle of Ezekiel 38, the first two on our list. They’re the ones I said are less obvious.

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I would modify your "proper order" to ...

The First half of Dani'el's 70th week begins (Yeshua` offers the Kingdom to the Jews),
His rejection at the middle of Dani'el's 70th week begins the Desolation, the postponement of the 70th week,
The Times of the Gentiles and the Tribulation begins until the Jews can say, "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH,"
(We are here),
The Jews can finally say, "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH," and the Times of the Gentiles comes to a close,
The Second half of Dani'el's 70th week begins, and the "balloon payment" of the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, also begins,
The Great Tribulation comes to a close,
The 2nd Coming begins with Yeshua`s arrival to earth's vicinity,
The First Resurrection, the Resurrection of the Justified, His family, both Isra'elis and Gentile Believers,
The Rapture (or Harpazo) of His family, a mass transit system to Isra'el,
The Descent to Edom (Idumea) for "the stomping of the grapes in the winepress,"
The Rescue of Judah,
The Arrival at the Mount of Olives and its subsequent splitting, providing an escape route from the city,
The Rescue of Jerusalem and the Routing of His enemies,
The Battle of Ezekiel 38-39 on the mountains of Isra'el,
The Battle at Har-Megiddown and on the plain of Yizra`e'l (Jezreel) Valley, southeast of Haifa,
The Anointing of the King and His Kingdom begins,
The War Tribunal of the Sheep and the Goats ("multitudes in the valley of decision"),
The Call of the King to all the rest of living Isra'elis in all nations, "encouraging" their leaders to send them home swiftly (all mysteries of the "ten tribes" are solved),
The Millennium, the FIRST 1000 years of Yeshua`s eternal reign, throughout which He defeats His enemies and grows His empire to fill the earth,
The Final Attempt of haSatan and Gogue of Magogue to overthrow the King of kings,
The FIRE (which decidedly ends that attempt!),
The Second Resurrection, a General Resurrection of all, with the focus on the unjustified,
The Great White Throne Judgment and Sentencing to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur,
The Last Enemy, Death, is defeated and thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur,
The King turns over the Empire to His Father, Elohiym,
The Earth is Re-Created and the New Jerusalem arrives, setting down upon its surface, and
Eternity begins.

7angels said:

So lets find out why they have to be where I’ve placed them in the sequence. Maintaining our back schedule mentality, we’ll begin with Ezekiel’s battle and work back to the Rapture.

“And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward.

Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, because I sent them into exile among the nations and then assembled them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore. And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.” (Ezek 39:21-22, 28-29)

The Lord has declared in no uncertain terms that He’s going to use Ezekiel’s battle to spiritually awaken His people and call them to Israel from all over the world. This will result in the reinstatement of their Old Covenant relationship, reviving Daniel’s long dormant “70-Weeks” prophecy for its final seven years and requiring that a Temple be constructed. Without one there’s no way for them to keep His covenant.

This was proven once before in history during the Babylonian captivity. When Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the 1st Temple, Israel ceased to exist. But as soon as Cyrus the Persian defeated Babylon and freed the Jews, they returned to Israel and began building a Temple before they did anything else. Without a Temple there’s no sacrifice for sin, and without that sacrifice, Jews cannot approach God.

Both the Old and New Testaments refer to a Temple in Israel at the End of the Age. The only reason for a Temple is to perform Old Covenant ordinances. But building one today would cause such an uproar that no one in his right mind would consider it.

Only a unified demand from the people of Israel accompanied by quiet acceptance from their Moslem neighbors would make the construction of a Temple even thinkable. Sound impossible? Ezekiel’s battle results in both a Jewish nation re-awakened to the presence of God in their national life and an utterly defeated Moslem attack force in no position to resist. The perfect conditions will finally exist to start building. For these reasons, Ezekiel’s battle has to take place on the threshold of Daniel’s 70th week. Now why does the Rapture of the Church have to precede Ezekiel’s battle?

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25)

According to Ezek. 37:7-10, Israel would be reborn first in unbelief. Paul said they’ll remain partially estranged from God until the gentile Church reaches its full complement (predetermined number) and arrives at its destination. (The Greek word translated “fullness” in Romans 11:25 was a nautical term often used to describe the full complement of crew and cargo necessary to accomplish a ship’s mission. The ship couldn’t sail till those requirements were met. The one translated “come in” means to arrive at a designated place.)

Then the veil will be pulled back as God reveals Himself to them again. As we saw above, He will use Ezekiel’s battle to begin this by renewing the Old Covenant with them, later transitioning Israel from the Old Covenant to the New toward the end of the Great Tribulation (Zech 12:10). Remember, if they didn’t go back to the Old covenant first, they wouldn’t need a Temple. He’s picking them up where they left off.

After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’ (Acts 15:13-18)

It was about 20 years after the cross. The controversy of the day was whether Gentiles had to become Jews before they could become Christians. And if not, what would become of Israel? In effect, the Lord’s brother James explained to the Apostles and others present at the Council of Jerusalem that Israel was being temporarily set aside while God focused on the Church. After He had taken this “people for His name” (Christians) from among the Gentiles he would return and rebuild His Temple. The Greek words translated taken means to carry something away or remove it from its place, so the passage implies that He would take the Church somewhere and then come back to rebuild the Temple, restore Israel, and give what’s left of mankind one final chance to seek Him.

These three Bible prophecies make it clear that as the End of the Age approaches, God will begin preparing Israel to be His once more. But He won’t be exclusively focused on them until He has finished building the Church and has taken us to our appointed place. And where is that? In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:2-3) (He didn’t promise to come back to be with us here where we are, but to take us there, where He is.) After that He would see to Israel’s reawakening and the construction of their Temple.

Throughout Scripture, the Lord seems to be involved with either Israel or the Church, but never both at the same time. James bears this out in his pronouncement regarding the Church in Acts 15. All the leaders of the early church now knew that once God had accomplished His goals with the church, He would turn again to Israel, and that would signal the end of the Church Age.

There are two critical points to remember here. The first is that the Church didn’t end the Age of Law, but only interrupted it 7 years short of its scheduled completion. Those seven years, called the 70th Week of Daniel, have to be fulfilled to complete the Old Covenant. And the second is that the Old and New covenants, as practiced in Israel and the Church, are theologically incompatible, and therefore the two can only be on Earth at the same time while Israel is out of covenant. For Israel to return to the Lord, the Church has to be gone.

For this reason, the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and the reunification of Jerusalem in 1967 are seen as the most important signs of all that the End of the Age is upon us.

Also, there are two events we haven’t put into the sequence yet, and that’s because they aren’t easy to locate there. These are the battles of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17. When Israel wins these two battles all their next door enemies will be defeated and they’ll enter into a brief period of peace that sets the stage for Ezekiel’s Battle (Ezekiel 38:11). They’re called battles instead of wars which means they’ll be of short duration and can happen within a fairly short span of time. They can come either before or after the Rapture but do have to happen before the Battle of Ezekiel 38 takes place.

i started to explain my position when it occurred to me that if i showed how to understand end time prophesy that it will get more people to start questioning their own beliefs and see if they concur with the word. the reason for this is non-believers are wondering if the end is near.

What is surprising is how little most Christians actually know about prophecy, especially since by some accounts it comprises nearly 40% of the Bible’s content, more than any other topic.

With few exceptions seminaries don’t teach it, so preachers don’t preach it. And therefore Christians don’t learn it. In all my years as a denominational Christian, I never once heard a message explaining the importance of prophecy to a believer’s walk with the Lord. And yet the Bible devotes more space to End Times Prophecy than it does to all the teachings of Jesus.

When Christians are asked why they don’t study prophecy more seriously the most common reasons given are 1) because it scares them, and 2) because it confuses them. Both responses are borne out of a lack of understanding. For the believer, prophecy is neither scary nor confusing but the key to understanding God’s plan for man.

i just want everyone concerned to be able to make their own well informed choices about prophesy.

God bless

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You are wrong about the Old Covenant in every way: First, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are NOT "incompatible"; they are ONE AND THE SAME Covenant with the exception that the New is written in the heart (the "core" of a person's mind, the Latin word for "heart" is "cor"), on "tables of flesh," instead of "tables of stone." Instead of ten commandments (or 613 commandments, actually), there are now only two: Love God will all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love others as you love yourself, and these two encompass all the rest.

Second, you don't yet understand the purpose for the Temple. It was not for the Old Covenant sacrifices; it was for PRAYER! The Jews today may THINK that they need a Temple to perform sacrificial rituals, and they may build a Temple to that end soon, but the REAL reason for the Temple being built is to fulfill the prophecy of Psalm 118:22-26, which was NOT adequately fulfilled during Yeshua`s "Triumphal Entry" on the original Palm Sunday. However, Yeshua` Himself, once He is established as Isra'el's King, will build a new Temple - the Temple Ezekiel saw, whether from scratch or revamping the one that the Jews will build. The Temple was for MUCH more than merely making sacrifices, and not all sacrifices were for appeasing God for sins! There are also meal offerings and thanksgiving offerings. The offerings on the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, happened ONCE a year, as did the offerings of the Paschal Lamb on Passover, Pesach.

Finally, allow me to report to you significant progress among the Jews, of which you apparently are not aware: Through the continual evangelization efforts of the Messianic Jews, the Jews are coming to their Messiah by the THOUSANDS! With every rally, with every concert, with every seminar, they are discovering that Yeshua` is indeed their Messiah and that they have nothing to fear in coming to Him and nothing to lose when they accept Him as their Lord! They can continue to practice their Jewish rituals and liturgies without being forced to "recant" or "abandon their heritage." We Messianic Jews are Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together, as it should have been all along!

In fact, so many of the Jews are coming to the realization that Yeshua` is their Messiah, that the orthodox Jews, alarmed at the progress (which they would call otherwise), have been stepping up their efforts to discredit and ostracize the Messianic Jews, calling them "missionaries," a derogatory term, treating them as traitors to their faith!

THIS is the gauge by which you should measure how close the end is!

Retrobyter, concerning your "poof" theory, I am in possible agreement that the rapture may not take but a person at a time, instead of a multitude. It is likely a person at a timne would be less noticed. Now, by that... say a person in one state then in a split second a person in another second or the like. Or in a multitude movement as it may be possible that Satan claims this for himself and not of God. just my tail...

YOU WILL HAVE TO FORGIVE MY IGNORANCE OF JEWISH CUSTOMS. i only know and can go by what the word of God says. if i am in ignorance of a meaning or event then feel free to correct me. i understand that all that happened in the old testament is all symbolic of what was to come.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, 7angels.


Forgive me, but I'm going to break in here and comment. I don't believe in all nine of these as "a total of nine major events yet to come." Taking the project management approach, you know that there is a difference between a task and a milestone, right? In mathematics, it's the difference between a line segment and a point. Well, just as in mathematics, it is impossible to draw a true point. We put a dot on the paper, but no matter how small we draw the dot, the pencil lead or the ink actually still has three dimensions. If we "zoom in" on that dot, effectively changing the scale of the graph, we can see that even the points have lengths (as well as widths and depths). In the same way, even with a Gantt chart, one can zoom in on a milestone and see that it, too, has a length of time to accomplish. As such, it, too, can be considered a short task.

My point here is that some of the "events" to which you allude, such as the "Rapture," which are commonly thought to be milestones, can be seen as tasks or time periods, and those periods can be longer than we expect. Furthermore, even the "beginning points" and the "ending points" of a task or a time period can be "fuzzy," not existing as a true, black/white toggle, but rather a slow graying from white to black or vice versa. For instance, how long did it take for the "churches" to evolve (devolve?) from a nearly purely Jewish entity to an almost exclusive Gentile entity where they actually took an anti-Semitic stance? It didn't take long! Less than 200 years! However, the change was NOT instantaneous. What makes anyone think that the reverse will be sudden? Pretribulational rapturists have this "event" down to a magically, miraculous ... <POOF!> ... we're gone! Then, God instantaneously changes His focus from the "Church" to Isra'el.

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this part that refers to how God's focus is on the Church atm and then changes to Isreal is pretty well explained by joshua(i don't agree with it all but most of it is sound) so i won't get into that here.
The rapture i can understand your position but if the rapture does occur before the tribulation then the rapture does become a major event due to the Church not having to go through God's wrath and that the antichrist will be given the power to overcome the saints. This is contrary to the teaching where Jesus said we are more than conquerors(in other words we have already been given victory and all we need to do is accept it) and that we are to be victorious in every area of life. so that tells me there is a rapture before God's wrath takes place or God is a liar and then there is no reason to believe in God or the bible because what he said is a lie. otherwise why would God defeat the devil and make him powerless and then give us all power also and then take it away and allow the antichrist to overpower us? that does not sound like my God to make a blood covenant and then break it.

Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, some people believe that the Tribulation and Dani'el's 70th Week are synonymous, claiming that the Great Tribulation is the last half of the Week! Others feel that the Millennium is synonymous with the Church Age while others feel that the Millennium is synonymous with Eternity! All I'm saying is that it may not be as "cut and dried" as you think!


I can agree with you to this point, although you should know that there are some on this forum who would disagree with you regarding the placement of the Millennium, as I mentioned above.


Here, I must EMPHATICALLY disagree with you. I do NOT see the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 as the fulfillment of Dani'el 9:27 in any way, and I see the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20 as the fulfillment of Dani'el 9:27, but not equated with 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Here's why: Some of what Yeshua` talked about in His Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century, and His words at the end of chapter 23 of Matthew, namely Matthew 23:37-39, were in partial fulfillment of Dani'el 9:27 because the "he" of Dani'el 9:27 is the "Messiah" of Dani'el 9:26, not the "prince that shall come."

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But before we try to understand the 70th week let’s review a rule of grammar that will help make our interpretation correct. The rule is this: Pronouns refer us back to the closest previous noun. “He”, being a personal pronoun, refers to the closest previous personal noun, in this case the “ruler who will come.” So a ruler who will come from the territory of the old Roman Empire will confirm a 7 year covenant with Israel that permits them to build a Temple and re-instate their Old Covenant worship system. 3 1/2 years later he will violate the covenant by setting up an abomination that causes the Temple to become desolate, putting an end to their worship. This abomination brings the wrath of God down upon him and he will be destroyed.

God bless

ps sorry but i need to make another thread for your timeline. it will not let you post if you have too many quotes.

Shalom, Joshua David.

(I haven't forgotten your post.)

To my statement,...

Second, the way that most who believe in the pretribulational Rapture put it, they will take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and say that a resurrection occurs when the saints (whom they call the "church") are raptured! My question is this: What gives pretribulational rapturists the right to say that this is a separate resurrection occurring BEFORE the resurrection that is noted in Revelation 20:4-6? THAT'S the issue! What separates the fate of the "church" from the fate of OT believers?! Can't these supposed two resurrections actually be just one? If one would simply abandon the idea that the believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians have to be whisked off to "Heaven" when they are raptured, they CAN be the same! Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 again carefully:

you wrote,...

Joshua David said:

Joshua David, on 25 Jan 2013 - 11:37, said:
Retrobyter,

...

Excuse me??? What give us the RIGHT??? So you are saying that we don't have the right to study the word and come to a conclusion on our own? Are you kidding me? So what are we suppose to do, just give up studying the word and come sit at your feet while you dispense pearls of wisdom? As a spirit-filled child of God, who has approached his bible study in prayer and with a deep desire to know the truth, I have as much RIGHT to come to my own conclusions, as you do. Now.. that being said, have I made mistakes in the past? Of course. I am just a little more truthful about this than most people are. The truth is we all are making some assumptions, we are all trying to find the truth.

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Obviously, I used the wrong words to make you take what I said personally. I am sorry that I have offended you. Please forgive me for that. No, I am not saying that one doesn't have the right to study the Word of God and come to his own conclusion. People learn at their own paces, though, and in God's timing. As the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) works in your life, so follow His lead. NEVER give up studying the Word, and you don't need me, but hopefully, I at least will provide an alternative viewpoint that perhaps you haven't considered before. Treat these forums as a smorgasbord; take what you want and leave the rest. (Most do anyway.)

Joshua David said:

Joshua David, on 25 Jan 2013 - 11:37, said:

For instance, you have made quite a few assumptions yourself. And I will be more than happy to point them out to you as I go through the rest of your post.

What gives us the right is the fact that Paul says that in Rom 11, that Israel's spiritual blindness will continue until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The next question is obviously come into what? Well if we look at the entire chapter of Rom 11, we find that Paul was contrasting Israel with the Gentile Church. So the answer is that Israel's blindness will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the Church. Once the church has reached the number that God has decreed, it is then that the rapture will happen. Rom 11 states that the blindness can not be removed until the full number of the Church has been complete.

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Actually, that is not what Romans 11 is talking about. Paul was contrasting Isra'el with the Gentiles ... PERIOD! And, the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the OLIVE TREE, which is national Isra'el:

Psalm 52:1-9
To the chief Musician, Mas'-chil, A Psalm of David, when Do'-eg the E'dom-ite came and told Saul, and said unto him, David is come to the house of A'him'-e-lech.
1 Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.
2 Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.
4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue.
5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.
6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
7 Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.
8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.
KJV

Jeremiah 11:1-17
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,
4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:
5 That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD.
6 Then the LORD said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them.
7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.
9 And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
12 Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
13 For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
KJV

Hosea 14:1-6
14 O Israel, return unto the Lord thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2 Take with you words, and turn to the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
KJV

And, don't think this is just an "Old Testament thing"; for Paul spells it out in Romans:

Romans 11:1-29
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Isra'el) to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them (Isra'el) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Isra'el) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Isra'el's) fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them (Isra'el) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them (Isra'el) be, but life from the dead? (RESURRECTION!)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root (Isra'el) be holy, so are the branches (Isra'elites).
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (a Gentile), wert graffed in among them (Isra'elites), and with them (Isra'elites) partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Isra'el);
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches (branches according to nature with the same DNA), take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell (unbelieving Isra'elites), severity; but toward thee (a Gentile), goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they (Isra'elites) abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them (Isra'elites) in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (Gentile nations), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree (Isra'el): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

That doesn't mean that Isra'el becomes part of the "Church"; that means that the Gentile believers become part of ISRA'EL! The term "Church" is a misnomer. In the Scriptures, it was never "the Church"; it was ALWAYS "churches!" The word "ekkleesia," which means a "called-out ...," a participle that was treated as noun, a gerund. It was also treated as a collective noun, like our words "flock" (of sheep) or "herd" (of cattle) or "school" (of fish) or "gaggle" (of geese) or "pride" (of lions). It was NOT intended to take on a life of its own! Only since the dominating influence of the Roman Catholic (Universal) Church has it meant more!

Joshua David said:

Joshua David, on 25 Jan 2013 - 11:37, said:

Once you understand that Israel and the Church are two totally separate entities, then it starts to come clear. Israel and the church has always been separate. And God has dealt with them differently. Israel lived under the Law, the church lives under Grace. ( This is why I can wake up and enjoy me some good old fashion bacon and eggs in the morning if I want to. ) Israel was saved through obedience to the Law and a faith in a coming redeemer, the Church is saved by Grace through Faith in a risen redeemer.

Israel and the church has also been given different promises and blessings. Israel was given the land of Israel, the church was never promised the Land, Israel was comprised entirely from the lineage of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the church is comprised of both Jew and Gentiles. The church is sealed with the Holy Spirit, no one in Israel was ever described as being sealed with the Holy Spirit Israel has an earthly destiny in the land from Jerusalem. The church has a heavenly destiny in the New Jerusalem.

I am sure that I missed quite a few, but that was the ones that I could think off the top of my head.

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Here, too, you are wrong. It's not that there is a difference between the Church and Isra'el; that's old-school Darbyism! There's a difference between Gentiles and Isra'el OUTSIDE of the Messiah, but WITHIN the Messiah, there is "no difference between Jew and Gentile!" (Acts 15:9; Romans 3:22; 10:12; and Ephesians 2:13-22.) And, being "within the Messiah" or "within Christ" IS NOT EQUAL TO being "in the Church!" Being "in the Messiah" is a concept from the Tanakh (the Old Testament) that was QUOTED in the B'rit Chadashah (the New Testament)!

As Paul put it,

Romans 10:6-15
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: (from Deuteronomy 30:12-14): that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (from Isaiah 28:16 cf. Romans 9:33)
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (rescued). (from Joel 2:32)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (from Isaiah 52:7)
KJV

Lamentations 4:11-20
11 The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof.
12 The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem.
13 For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her,
14 They have wandered as blind men in the streets, they have polluted themselves with blood, so that men could not touch their garments.
15 They cried unto them, Depart ye; it is unclean; depart, depart, touch not: when they fled away and wandered, they said among the heathen, They shall no more sojourn there.
16 The anger of the Lord hath divided them; he will no more regard them: they respected not the persons of the priests, they favoured not the elders.
17 As for us, our eyes as yet failed for our vain help: in our watching we have watched for a nation that could not save us.
18 They hunt our steps, that we cannot go in our streets: our end is near, our days are fulfilled; for our end is come.
19 Our persecutors are swifter than the eagles of the heaven: they pursued us upon the mountains, they laid wait for us in the wilderness.
20 The breath of our nostrils, the anointed (Messiah) of the Lord, was taken in their pits, of whom we said, Under his shadow we shall live among the heathen.
KJV

Psalm 51:1-19
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bath-she'-ba
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
KJV

So, these concepts are NOT unique to the B'rit Chadashah (the NT)!

Joshua David said:

Joshua David, on 25 Jan 2013 - 11:37, said:

Paul may not have mentioned where we are going because he expected us to know the answer, because Jesus himself told us.

Let's look at the end of John 13 and the beginning of John 14.

John 13:33-38 33 Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, &lsquo;Where I am going, you cannot come,&rsquo; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.&rdquo;
36 Simon Peter said to Him, &ldquo;Lord, where are You going?&rdquo;
Jesus answered him, &ldquo;Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.&rdquo;
37 Peter said to Him, &ldquo;Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake.&rdquo;
38 Jesus answered him, &ldquo;Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times.

John 14:1-4 14 &ldquo;Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father&rsquo;s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.&rdquo;

So my question to everyone else who believes in a Post-trib rapture, if Jesus told his disciples that he was going away, where was he going? TO HEAVEN!!!!!

He was going to go prepare for us a place? What place is he preparing? The New Jerusalem! Where is that right now? IN HEAVEN!!!

Jesus said that in his Father's house are many mansions? Where is his Father's house? Who is his Father? God Where does God live? IN HEAVEN!!!

Now look Jesus' answer in John 13:36 ... &ldquo;Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.&rdquo; Follow him where? To Heaven!!!


I mean how clearer can the scriptures be? Jesus told us multiple times in just a few verses, that Jesus himself will come to receive us unto himself, and we will follow him to the place that he has prepared for us in HEAVEN!!!

Any 5 yr old that reads these verses will tell you exactly what I just said.

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Any 5 year old will say exactly what they were taught to say. That's no proof!

I used to believe as you do, but then I studied the words "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly." I had always been taught that there were three "heavens": the heaven of clouds, the heaven of stars, and God's abode.

I knew that there were three Greek words for "love," meaning "Godly love," "brotherly love," and "sensual love": "agapee," "fileoo," and "eros" (the last one is not found in the NT). (BTW, I use "ee" for an eta, "e" for epsilon, "oo" for omega, "o" for omicron, and "f" for phi.) So, when I started to look up the Greek words that were translated "heaven," imagine my surprise when there weren't three such Greek words! Instead, all of the words are related to one another, and they all stem from the basic word translated "heaven," "ouranos." When I extended this study to include "heavenly," I found a few different words. All total, from Strong's Greek Dictionary, I found five different words, but only two places, and they weren't the places I expected. These Greek words were "ouranos," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios." There's also "ouranoi," but that's just the plural of "ouranos."

First, let's just look at the Greek relationships of the other words to "ouranos":

"Ouranios" is the adjective form of "ouranos" and translates to "of or belonging to ouranos."
"Ouranothen" is an ablative form of "ouranos," translated as "from ouranos."
"Mesouraneema" is a form of "ouranos" with the prefix "meso" meaning "middle." The word was translated as "in the midst of ouranos."
"Epouranios" is also an adjective form of "epouranos," which in turn is "ouranos" with the prefix "epi." "Epi" means "above"; so, "epouranos" means "above ouranos," and "epouranios" means "of or belonging to above-ouranos."

Now, what does "ouranos" mean? Well, the simplest way to find out is found in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

Here's the Greek:

Kata Matthaion 16:1-4
1 Kai proselthontes hoi Farisaioi kai Saddoukaioi peirazontes epeerooteesan auton seemeion ek tou ouranou epideixai autois.
2 Ho de apokritheis eipen autois, "Opsias genomenees legete, 'Eudia, purrazei gar ho ouranos,'
3 kai prooi, 'Seemeron cheimoon, purrazei gar stugnazoon ho ouranos.' To men prosoopon tou ouranou ginooskete diakrinein ta de seemeia toon kairoon ou dunasthe?
4 Genea poneera kai moichalis seemeion epizeetei, kai seemeion ou dotheesetai autee ei mee to seemeion Ioona." Kai katalipoon autous apeelthen.
The Greek New Testament

Notice that BOTH "heaven" and "sky" are translations of "ouranos." Some claim that the context will determine whether it means "Heaven" as God's abode or the "sky" where the clouds are, but how would they know the difference in GREEK? To Yeshua` and the P'rushiym (Pharisees) and the Ts'dukiym (Sadducees), THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE! They asked for a sign from the sky and they GOT a sign from the sky! A WEATHER SIGN! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight, but red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" So, the word "ouranos" means the "sky!"

So, going back to the other Greek words,...
"Ouranios" means "of or belonging to the sky."
"Ouranothen" means "from the sky."
"Mesouraneema" means "in the middle of the sky."
"Epouranios" means "of or belonging to above-the-sky."

And, we can check these by the contexts of the occurrences of these words in the New Testament:

Acts 26:13-20
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven (Greek: ouranothen = from the sky), above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly (Greek: ouranioo = of or belonging to the sky) vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
KJV

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven (Greek: mesouraneema = in the middle of the sky), Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial (Greek: epourania = of or belonging to above-the-sky) bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV

So, there are only two places mentioned with this word: the sky where the birds fly, and above the sky where the sun, moon, and stars are, what we would call "space" or "outer space!" Even the New Jerusalem is called an "epouranios" city, a city "of or belonging to above-the-sky" in Hebrews 12:22! That's how I know that it will land on the New Earth. In Revelation 21:2, John said he saw the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of "heaven" which is "ouranos," meaning the sky where the birds fly! There's nothing between the atmosphere and the earth, so if it comes out of the atmosphere, it must land!

Joshua David said:

Joshua David, on 25 Jan 2013 - 11:37, said:

This is another one of your assumptions. This is not what the scriptures say.


Matt 25:32 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

When it says that all the nations are gathered before him, it just mean that all the people from all the nations, or another way of saying it is that everyone who is still alive will be gather before him, then he will separate the people one from another. that seems like individuals to me, and just to make sure that he is clear is compares it to a shepherd separating his sheep. Now when a shepherd separates his sheep from his goats, it does it individually. This animal is a sheep, it goes here, this animal is a goat, it goes there....

So you are still stuck with the individual sheep, either being a believer or not a believer. If the sheep is a believer, then why wasn't he raptured? If he wasn't a believer, why does the Lord call him Righteous?

These are the questions that every Post Trib believer must answer!!!!

Now as far as Jesus not ruling the entire Earth, I totally disagree with your interpretation... When Jesus returns, He returns as the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords. His rule will not be questioned, his authority is absolute. This is the entire reason that the sheep and goat judgment occurs, because the only people that well be left to enter into his Kingdom are believers. Believers in immortal bodies, who will not procreate, and believers in mortal bodies that will procreate and replenish the earth.

Yes, the last enemy is death, and this enemy will not be defeated until the end of the Millennium, People will die in the Millennium, if a hundred year old child does not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior, he will die. All the people that rise up against Christ at the end of the Tribulation will be killed by Fire from Heaven.

But when the 1,000 years is over, Jesus will defeat his final enemy Death, and in eternity, Death will not darken his Kingdom ever again.

...

Joshua David

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You need to understand that there IS a difference between a people and the individuals known as persons within a people. Sheep are followers! Tap one sheep on the left to steer him to the right, and other sheep will follow, particularly if there are ewes with lambs! Goats are the same way! Even if they mix while feeding, they will tend to congregate with their species, especially when threatened. Have you ever worked with these animals on the farm? I've never worked with them personally, but I've watched! My sister was a goatherd; and I have a friend who was a shepherd in Isra'el! This prophecy is not about separating believers from unbelievers; it's about separating those who abused and mistreated Yeshua`s brothers (and sisters) from those who treated them well!

Not everything in the Scriptures is about "accepting Jesus Christ as his Savior!" If that is your mentality, then you will get HUGE amounts of Scripture wrong! Furthermore, this sheep/goats division doesn't occur at the end of the Millennium; it happens AT ITS BEGINNING! It's interesting how you skipped over verse 31:

Matthew 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV

Amen Roy Maybe a little more than a 5 year old could understand,but all us grown up shouldn't have a problem with it

Shalom, 7angels.

7angels said:

YOU WILL HAVE TO FORGIVE MY IGNORANCE OF JEWISH CUSTOMS. i only know and can go by what the word of God says. if i am in ignorance of a meaning or event then feel free to correct me. i understand that all that happened in the old testament is all symbolic of what was to come.

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No problem, brother. It takes time. It's why we need to understand the Jewish roots of our faith - the Jewish origins of how Christianity began. It's easy for us who have pictures painted of our Lord Jesus Christ with white skin, blue eyes, and long flowing brown hair and a neatly trimmed beard in a white tunic and blue robe thrown over a shoulder to forget that the REAL Yeshua` was a Jew, as were all of His disciples and the people to whom He revealed Himself as the Messiah of God - the Anointed of God - the One whom God chose to be King of the Jews and King of Isra'el, as well as eventually King of kings.

However, you also need to understand NOT "all that happened in the OT is all symbolic of what was to come." There is much that is strictly history! Real events that happened to real people from whom we can get real life lessons is also within the OT! That's what the author of Hebrews was trying to tell us in chapter 11!

7angels said:

this part that refers to how God's focus is on the Church atm and then changes to Isreal is pretty well explained by joshua(i don't agree with it all but most of it is sound) so i won't get into that here.
The rapture i can understand your position but if the rapture does occur before the tribulation then the rapture does become a major event due to the Church not having to go through God's wrath and that the antichrist will be given the power to overcome the saints. This is contrary to the teaching where Jesus said we are more than conquerors(in other words we have already been given victory and all we need to do is accept it) and that we are to be victorious in every area of life. so that tells me there is a rapture before God's wrath takes place or God is a liar and then there is no reason to believe in God or the bible because what he said is a lie. otherwise why would God defeat the devil and make him powerless and then give us all power also and then take it away and allow the antichrist to overpower us? that does not sound like my God to make a blood covenant and then break it.

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That is the rub, isn't it? And yet, God does not promise us a life of rainbows and sugar plums! James is not a popular book, but it IS a realistic one:

James 1:1-12
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
KJV

And, don't forget Paul's words to Timothy:

2 Tim 3:10-12
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
KJV

So, why should we expect privileged treatment above that of our own brothers and sisters in the Lord who have gone before us? God is also able to protect us THROUGH the tribulation that shall come, just as He protected the Isra'elites in Egypt from the passing of the Death Angel by the application of the blood upon the doorposts and lintels of their doorways! You have the Blood applied to YOU, as well, and...

John 17:1-26
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV

7angels said:

But before we try to understand the 70th week let’s review a rule of grammar that will help make our interpretation correct. The rule is this: Pronouns refer us back to the closest previous noun. “He”, being a personal pronoun, refers to the closest previous personal noun, in this case the “ruler who will come.” So a ruler who will come from the territory of the old Roman Empire will confirm a 7 year covenant with Israel that permits them to build a Temple and re-instate their Old Covenant worship system. 3 1/2 years later he will violate the covenant by setting up an abomination that causes the Temple to become desolate, putting an end to their worship. This abomination brings the wrath of God down upon him and he will be destroyed.

God bless

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I understand this rule of grammar, but you also need to understand the rule of grammar about prepositional phrases. When a prepositional phrase is used in a sentence, the phrase itself can act as an adjective or an adverb, but the individual words within the phrase CANNOT participate directly in the basic structure of the sentence. The object of the preposition cannot be the subject nor can a verb included in the prepositional phrase as part of the object be the predicate of the sentence. The individual parts within a phrase or clause do not participate directly within the fundamental sentence. As such, the pronoun "he," which is the subject of the very next sentence, CANNOT refer to the object of the preposition in the prepositional phrase "of the prince that shall come." Break down the sentence in verse 26 or diagram it to help you understand this:

Dani'el 9:26
26 And ---------------------------------conjunction
after threescore and two weeks -prepositional phrase
shall -------------------------------------helping verb
Messiah --------------------------------subject
be cut -----------------------------------helping verb/verb = predicate
off, ---------------------------------------adverb
but ---------------------------------------conjunction
not ---------------------------------------adverb
for himself: ----------------------------adverbial prepositional phrase
and --------------------------------------conjunction
the ---------------------------------------definite article adjective
people ----------------------------------subject
of the prince that shall come -----prepositional phrase with embedded clause
shall destroy --------------------------helping verb/verb = predicate
the --------------------------------------article adjective
city --------------------------------------direct object
and -------------------------------------conjunction
the --------------------------------------definite article adjective
sanctuary; ----------------------------direct object
and -------------------------------------conjunction
the --------------------------------------definite article adjective
end -------------------------------------subject
thereof ---------------------------------adjective
shall be --------------------------------helping verb/intransitive verb = predicate
with a flood, --------------------------prepositional phrase
and -------------------------------------conjunction
unto the end -------------------------prepositional phrase
of the war -----------------------------prepositional phrase
desolations ---------------------------subject
are determined.----------------------helping verb/reflexive verb = predicate.
KJV

Thus, the noun associated with the personal pronoun "he" should go back to the nearest, singular, personal subject or direct object within the previous sentence. That would be the "Messiah."

This also works out the same in Hebrew. The Hebrew does not have a prepositional phrase, but it DOES have what is known as a "noun construct state," which we frequently translate with prepositional phrases.

For instance, if a construct state is "been haa'iysh," translated as "the son of the man" or "the man's son," used in a sentence, and the next sentence begins with a verb that implies a singular subject such that we would translate it with a beginning pronoun, "he," that "he" would refer to "been" NOT "haa'iysh!" The "he" would have as its antecedent "the son," NOT "the man!"

The construct state in verse 26 is "`am naagiyd habaa'," which is translated "the people of the prince that shall come." The word "`am," "the people," could be the antecedent for some future pronoun, but not "naagiyd," "the prince." In Hebrew, just as in the English translation, the reader must go back farther to find the antecedent, back to "Maashiyach," "Messiah."

7angels said:

ps sorry but i need to make another thread for your timeline. it will not let you post if you have too many quotes.

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Just quote once, and then you can break up the quote by placing the cursor where you want to insert your comments. Press the Enter key a couple of times, and the one quotation will break apart into two parts. Press Enter a couple of more times to give yourself some room, position your cursor where you want to put your comment, and type. I haven't experienced too many problems with this method.