Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

Hello Retro I would be interested in your opinion of chiasm's

I'll post a couple, I have in the past noticed a poetic type of harmony in scripture but never really put a finger on it until I discovered chiasm's


A chiasm (ky'-az-um) is a writing style that uses a unique repetition pattern for clarification and emphasis.
Often called the chiastic (ky'-az-tic) approach or the chiastic structure,
this repetition form appears throughout the Bible yet it is not well
known.
The way you approach the Scriptures should be dramatically enhanced as
you learn what a chiasm is, how to recognize chiasms, and how to glean a
fresh application
from related New or Old Testament passages.

Chiasms are structured in a repeating A B C ... C' B' A' pattern:

A I will never leave you nor forsake you

B Be strong and courageous

C Be careful to obey all the law … that you may be successful

D Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth

D' Mediate on it day and night

C' Be careful to do everything written in it … you may be prosperous and successful

B' Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged

A' for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. (Joshua 1:5-9)
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A Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden,

B and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you

X and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart,

B' and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy

A' and My burden is light.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Their are several in Daniel as well but I'll use one exaple


24 ” 7.) Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

......6.)To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make
reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness,

.........5.) To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

...........25 4.) “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem

................3.) Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

....................2.) The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

.........................26 1.) “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

.....................2.) And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

..................3.) The end of it shall be with a flood,

..............4.) And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

..........27 5.)Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the
middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

.....6.) And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

7.) Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”


RED – The center of the chiasm , the apex of eternity , the cross.

GREEN – Above – God uses gentiles (Cyrus) to liberate nation for rebuilding city

Below – God uses gentiles (Romans) to decimate nation and destroy city

VIOLET – Above – Announces arrival of Messiah in Blessing

Below – Announces departure of Messiah in Judgment

BLUE – Above – Restoration commanded by God through man

Below – Desolation Determined by God through Messiah

PINK – Above- Anoint the High Priest who would be the sacrifice and offering.

Below – End sacrifice and offering

ORANGE – Above – Christ brings in everlasting righteousness and reconciliation

Below – Christ makes the city of the abominable unrighteous, desolate.

DARK RED – Above- 70 weeks of years determined for rebuilding and life

Below – The consummation of judgments determined for rejection.

Shalom, Rex.

Rex said:

Hello Retro I would be interested in your opinion of chiasm's

I'll post a couple, I have in the past noticed a poetic type of harmony in scripture but never really put a finger on it until I discovered chiasm's


A chiasm (ky'-az-um) is a writing style that uses a unique repetition pattern for clarification and emphasis.
Often called the chiastic (ky'-az-tic) approach or the chiastic structure,
this repetition form appears throughout the Bible yet it is not well
known.
The way you approach the Scriptures should be dramatically enhanced as
you learn what a chiasm is, how to recognize chiasms, and how to glean a
fresh application
from related New or Old Testament passages.

Chiasms are structured in a repeating A B C ... C' B' A' pattern:

A I will never leave you nor forsake you

B Be strong and courageous

C Be careful to obey all the law … that you may be successful

D Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth

D' Mediate on it day and night

C' Be careful to do everything written in it … you may be prosperous and successful

B' Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged

A' for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. (Joshua 1:5-9)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden,

B and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you

X and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart,

B' and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy

A' and My burden is light.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Their are several in Daniel as well but I'll use one exaple


24 ” 7.) Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

......6.)To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make
reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness,

.........5.) To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

...........25 4.) “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem

................3.) Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

....................2.) The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

.........................26 1.) “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

.....................2.) And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

..................3.) The end of it shall be with a flood,

..............4.) And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

..........27 5.)Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the
middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

.....6.) And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

7.) Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”


RED – The center of the chiasm , the apex of eternity , the cross.

GREEN – Above – God uses gentiles (Cyrus) to liberate nation for rebuilding city

Below – God uses gentiles (Romans) to decimate nation and destroy city

VIOLET – Above – Announces arrival of Messiah in Blessing

Below – Announces departure of Messiah in Judgment

BLUE – Above – Restoration commanded by God through man

Below – Desolation Determined by God through Messiah

PINK – Above- Anoint the High Priest who would be the sacrifice and offering.

Below – End sacrifice and offering

ORANGE – Above – Christ brings in everlasting righteousness and reconciliation

Below – Christ makes the city of the abominable unrighteous, desolate.

DARK RED – Above- 70 weeks of years determined for rebuilding and life

Below – The consummation of judgments determined for rejection.

Click to expand...

The way I understood a "chiasm" or a "chiasma" was to think of the Greek letter "chi" (which looks like a tall "x" and from which the word is derived) and see the technique as a cross-over of key words. It's just another technique of poetry. It's not uncommon for the Hebrew to have such techniques in its literature. Much of the Hebrew books are written as poetry. Couplets are the most obvious form that one will find, but they are couplets of ideas, whether synonymous or antonymous. The Hebrew alefbet consists solely of consonants and the vowels of the language vary with different parts of speech; so, they never developed our Western idea of rhyming.

The Psalms and most of the Proverbs were all written as poetry, usually in couplets, but many of the prophecies are also poetic in style.

So, I'm good with such a technique. One just needs to be careful that he is not putting words in the author's mouth. Make sure that you are rightly deriving the technique from the author, not fabricating a technique for a passage that the author never intended.

I do like the example that you chose to use (randomly? I think not), thus pairing "The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times" with "And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary," using the explanation, "GREEN – Above – God uses Gentiles (Cyrus) to liberate nation for rebuilding city
Below – God uses Gentiles (Romans) to decimate nation and destroy city."

Although I would not exactly call it evidence, it is a good supporting point for such an interpretation. I can think of a few (even on this forum) who would categorically toss the idea out simply because "they don't agree." Oh, well. Thanks for your comment!

Pharmboy said:

Frankly I dont believe there is any rapture at all except through death (and after that what more can be done to us) and resurrection. I believe that the Bible teaches that the Church will be "overcome" on this earth and then the wrath of God will fall (on the nations) when there is no church left to prevent it (through prayer and supplication). But the tribulation begins (began a long time ago) with God correcting His own, with like punishments (that have a much different outcome). The difference between trumpets and bowls. Death is a seive through which we are all shaken. Some come out the other side, some dont.

Click to expand...

I think a better question to the title should be prefaced with: Why shouldn't... .? Why should the Church of Christ bypass the tribulation, when it is clear from Hebrews that many saints endured great things to finally enter God's kingdom.

Are we afraid of testing? But tested we will be.

God is going to kill every living thing on the planet earth. Gods people will not be here when he does. Every living thing. A blade of grass is also a living thing...everything. It is not a test.

domenic said:

God is going to kill every living thing on the planet earth. Gods people will not be here when he does. Every living thing. A blade of grass is also a living thing...everything. It is not a test.

Click to expand...

Not during the so-called tribulation. He will post that. Whatever that may mean.

domenic said:

God is going to kill every living thing on the planet earth. Gods people will not be here when he does. Every living thing. A blade of grass is also a living thing...everything. It is not a test.

Click to expand...

Thus says The Lord of Hosts, The God of your fathers, The God of Israel: My anger is aroused and shall not be quenched, until every tall tower is torn down and shaken to dust, and not one fenced city is left standing! In My hot displeasure I shall turn My hand against the earth, and smite every bird and beast, and every crawling thing! Every fish in the sea shall die, even every creature of the seas shall perish, when I strike the waters! I shall not relent, nor turn back, until every blade of grass is burned up, and every tree has been stricken and bears neither leaf nor fruit!... Behold, My anger shall not be turned away! Judgment shall reign!... Punishment upon the wicked, a sore to the evil one and his servant and his prophet!... Lo, it shall surely be accomplished! The earth shall be forsaken for a time and made utterly desolate, with the kingdoms of men left in ruins! Says The Lord.

Excerpt from:

Consummation


http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Consummation

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."

Why should we go through the Tribulation? Because God chose a TEST....to prove those who really want Him...& His Christ....more than anything & everything else.

There will be a mark to buy or sell...to seemingly survive...that we must not take...or we will burn forever....but many Christians will....who love their own lives more,. The Anti-Christ is among us....Osama Bin Laden....risen from the dead...I met him, & witnessed the pillars of fire called down by the false prophet...3 times...& Bin Laden twice.

I also prophesied to them...that they would get the world, but not all of it...for there would be a remnant left here that Jesus would return for...& their end would be burning forever in the lake of fire....& the absolute Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth.

It well could be that the 7 year period has already begun......as of September 26th, 2012.....& the midst of it is March 9th, 2016....1260 days later...the exact date that some believe the Anti-Christ would appear...the day of the next full solar eclipse...[ & possibly on or near the day when America falls in war....]

The time is short....pray for wisdom as to what you are to do...& what you are to repent of.

Brothertom said:

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."

Why should we go through the Tribulation? Because God chose a TEST....to prove those who really want Him...& His Christ....more than anything & everything else.

There will be a mark to buy or sell...to seemingly survive...that we must not take...or we will burn forever....but many Christians will....who love their own lives more,. The Anti-Christ is among us....Osama Bin Laden....risen from the dead...I met him, & witnessed the pillars of fire called down by the false prophet...3 times...& Bin Laden twice.
I also prophesied to them...that they would get the world, but not all of it...for there would be a remnant left here that Jesus would return for...& their end would be burning forever in the lake of fire....& the absolute Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth.

It well could be that the 7 year period has already begun......as of September 26th, 2012.....& the midst of it is March 9th, 2016....1260 days later...the exact date that some believe the Anti-Christ would appear...the day of the next full solar eclipse...[ & possibly on or near the day when America falls in war....]
The time is short....pray for wisdom as to what you are to do...& what you are to repent of.

Click to expand...

Thus says the Lord YahuShua: I am coming for those who are Mine, who I see of Myself in them, and for those little ones who remain in their innocence.
And of those, who carry Me within them, these look for My coming and know it is nigh, for they are fully awake in Me, and wait anxiously with kinked necks.
And those who truly love Me, yet gaze as one having man’s veil atop their heads, not believing those who are Mine will escape but will endure great tribulation, these shall also be taken according to that which their hearts reveal, in spite of their error, for these have also passed from judgment into the Light of Life. It is only the leaders in the churches of men, who led them astray, according to their own arrogance and false doctrine, who shall be left.



Excerpt from:

I Search the Hearts and Minds
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=I_Search_the_Hearts_and_Minds


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You shall be spared, for you had placed your full faith in the hands of My Father, and He has given you to Me. You shall share in My joy, which is The Father’s joy, He shares with you because of Me. You came from God by Me, and by Me shall you return to The Father and live in His house, where I had prepared a place for you from the beginning. YOU WILL BE TAKEN OUT OF this world, which has all together become liken to that Babylon, I will destroy in the hour of My God’s judgment. Many more will I take out after the elect have been lifted up... They will be martyrs. And yet, a remnant will remain who shall be hidden in the earth for a time, times and the dividing of time... To these, it is reserved to be taken through.

Excerpt from:

Judgment Into Life

http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Judgment_Into_Life

Seems to me, asking 'why' is irrelevant. Of course, the tribulation has already happened so, anyway....

" For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

IMMEDIATELY after the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.


For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

Has Mount Everest fallen as flat as as pancake? Have the Islands 0f the sea sunk? Has about 1/2 of men on the Earth been killed, as per the Word of the Lord?


"Seems to me, asking 'why' is irrelevant. Of course, the tribulation has already happened so, anyway...." Aspen 2

Your ignorance of the Word of God is what is truly irrelevant. Very soon it will come to America...prepare your heart to endure no matter the cost. Worship Jesus alone unto death.

Brothertom said:

" For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

IMMEDIATELY after the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.


For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

Has Mount Everest fallen as flat as as pancake? Have the Islands 0f the sea sunk? Has about 1/2 of men on the Earth been killed, as per the Word of the Lord?


"Seems to me, asking 'why' is irrelevant. Of course, the tribulation has already happened so, anyway...." Aspen 2

Your ignorance of the Word of God is what is truly irrelevant. Very soon it will come to America...prepare your heart to endure no matter the cost. Worship Jesus alone unto death.

Click to expand...

Thus says The Lord God, yes I, The Holy One of Israel: I AM COME! Says The Mighty and Strong One. Yes it is I, The Lion of The Tribe of Judah, whose eyes are like flames of fire!... I AM COME! I am come out in My anger! And with the sword of My mouth I shall strike down the nations! For I have come forth to judge; yes, the time has come! Therefore, prepare and shout!

Thus says The Lord to the United States: Your nation is given up; behold, the mighty nation is cast down! It has fallen on its side, and who is able to deliver them?! For all who remain shall fall! They shall fall hard, and they shall break!... Behold, they shall be broken in pieces without hand! They shall be stricken and brought very low! Says The Lord in His judgment.
Behold, My anger burns hot and My fury has come up into My face, because of you, O mighty nation! Says The Lord, yes I, The High and Lofty One. For He who holds the key of David has spoken to you, yet you would not listen, indeed you have refused to hear, nor have you walked in The Way of The Lord; your ears are full of pollution and your eyes are covered with violence... You are as a cake unturned, milk gone sour, honey which has altogether lost its flavor, a wayward people who wallow in their own filth, a most backward people! You lay snares at the feet of all who seek to do good, while persecuting those who stand up for what is right!... A most wicked and slothful generation!

Therefore, thus says The Lord: I shall make you as stubble fully dried; and behold, in the midst of you I shall kindle a fire! Upon you shall I bring distress and tribulation! For the whole land shall be as a woman caught in the midst of great travail; like a man overcome with madness, shouting and foaming at the mouth! The land shall convulse and your glory shall be thrown down, your loftiness bowed down, in the day I trample you underfoot! Says The Lord.
City by city shall be broken down, and the blood of the wicked shall be poured upon the ground! For as lightning sets the tree ablaze and boisterous winds drive the flames, so shall I consume you from off this land, from one end to the other!... With blackness and death, with desolation and great distress, until there is no place!
Behold, I shall wear you out, O mighty nation! Calamity upon calamity shall batter you and break you down! Your enemies shall persecute you, without respite, and breach the wall! For you have not ceased from doing evil before My face!... Behold, day and night the innocent are murdered because of YOU!



Thus My hand is stretched out against you, O nation not desired!
FOR YOU HAVE SINNED AGAINST THE LORD!...

Behold, I shall set you forth as an example,
A sign to all nations, a warning for all those who forget God!...

And it shall come to pass, that all who look
Upon you shall be greatly astonished;
They shall hide their faces and draw back from you,
Because of the terror of The Lord!

Excerpt from:

My Hand is Outstretched, The World is Given Up... The Day of The Lord Has Come
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=My_Hand_is_Outstretched%2C_The_World_is_Given_Up..._The_Day_of_The_Lord_Has_Come

Graceismine said:

Trekson,

IF you have the truth regarding your view on the rapture then I am blind. If you do not have the truth then my ignorance about what you are trying to say makes no difference. I'm sorry you don't like me saying you twisted the Scripture but that is how I see it. Once people start doing that something inside me shuts down.

I don't mean to offend you I'm just being truthful about how I see it.



Well said to Veteran.


Veteran said


You mean not being willing to agree with your view. I don't like Pre Wrath mainly because we are not appointed to wrath and yáll want us to go through some sort of judgment because you can't accept that Jesus did it all.

We are not going through any of it, I am not looking for Antichrist to arrive and I won't be among any of those hiding in the rocks. I am not numbered in any way with unbelievers and what is to befall them. I am of the body of Christ. His body will not go through this torment which you seem to be playing down as if it is going to be a picnic.

Praise God for His grace and His mercy.

Click to expand...

You sound a little bit like you may be ruled by fear, rather than by love. I don't mean to offend you, but as a man who believes what the scripture says (with regard to the first resurrection and the gathering together of the saints) I can think of one good reason that the church should be upon the earth during the great tribulation (that is in addition to all the scripture that points to that fact.) Do you have any friends or family that are unsaved, not professing believers, or even opposed to the gospel and unwilling to hear it? Pray all you want, there is no biblical guarantee that such a person will repent and believe Christ. Or is your love limited to believers? If the Church were to be removed, who would minister to the lost? The 144,000 Jewish believers? Would they be the sole witness and the only comfort to over 6 billion people? I have family and friends that I would be willing to die for, ones that I love, who have no faith in God, no knowledge of our Lord. Should I be pleased to abandon them at a time when they'll need me most? The purpose of the church going through tribulation with the world is to demonstrate the love of God, and to be made perfect in it: 27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Luke 6:27-36
God knows how much temptation each of us can endure and He's promised a way out. Got knows how much suffering and pain we can be a witness to, and He is more than able to call us home rather than have our faith fail us, but He is also more than able to provide for our needs and our safety in the midst of any natural occurrence, disaster, persecution, and tribulation:
But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine. 2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you. 3 For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:1-3
Or do you believe that the promises of God are only to Jacob and Israel? If you do, then why would you think you were even saved? Believe what you want but faith in a pre-trib rapture won't keep you fed and clothed when it becomes impossible to buy or sell without taking the mark, but faith in Christ will: 42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Luke 12:41-43 Did Jesus perhaps have Joseph, second in command over all of Egypt, in mind when He said this? Time will tell, and more sooner than later.

The Great Tribulation has already manifesting in parts of the World today....with millions fleeing the bloodletting & terrors of Islamic genocide....to all who refuse to bow to Allah & declare him God & Lord.
http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/mass-exodus-christians-muslim-lands/?utm_source=RadicalIslam.org&utm_campaign=bedcb0c1df-issue_915_16_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_01be8b04e3-bedcb0c1df-2755541#fm

Of course, many believe that America sits a Queen, & shall see no sorrow. America will be invaded & occupied, with "conversion centers" to Islam; with beheadings & crucifictions of Christians who refuse....just like Nigeria today.

"Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

" And authority was given him over EVERY tribe, tongue, and nation." .....Revelation 13.

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."....EVEN HERE, IN AMERICA.

I have written that I have met the Anti-Christ & the false prophet, on a journey to North Africa...& I have...Osama Bin Laden risen from the sea...& the most dreadful male-witch with him one could imagine....Beasts. [ I witnessed huge pillars of fire he called down 3 times...]..[ September, 26th, 2012 ]

It could be that we have entered into the 7 year period of tribulation as of September 26th, 2012. 1260 days after that date would be the mid point, where the anti-Christ is anointed with all satanic power...March 9th, 2016...the day of a powerful full solar eclipse...& possibly the day [ or near ] that America falls. We will see a massive Air war then around Katrina's path...that America will lose, for Air Superiority...& after our war bases are annihilated through-out this land, a full scale invasion will occur....& the angel spoke as I saw them marching, mean & lean, out of the sea..."20 MILLION!"..the number of the American invasion force....& they will go to cities to occupy them...& then mop up the country-side at their liesure.

This will be brutal, but tending to mellow out as multitudes convert to Islam, & accept the mark to buy & sell...but through it all, there will yet be a remant here when Jesus returns.

As far as Pre-Tribulation rapture folks...If you are born again...then God will show you. The real question...is HOW to we prepare & whatshould we do?

"When the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent."

That time, times & half a time is 3 &1/2 years...the exact time of the GREAT TRIBULATION period...which means to me that God will make a way for the remnant, no matter what. TRUST GOD, MORE & MORE EACH DAY...& WORSHIP JESUS NO MATTER THE COST....is the answer as to how.

The "great tribulation" which Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 has not... begun yet today.

The reason is because certain signs He gave there are associated with that specific time; they are:

1) appearance of the pseudo-Christ, the future coming Antichrist which Apostle Paul declared in 2 Thess.2:3-4, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward which Jesus showed John, etc. That's 3 Scripture witnesses, which ought to be enough.

2) the time of "Peace and safety" which Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5, which Jesus also hinted to in Matt.24:6 for the end. Look around today; what are the one-world globalists trying to do? Their plan and intent is to establish a "one world government" over all nations, and over all peoples. Pretty easy to see that working on earth today, and also that it is not yet complete today. As long as the coming pseudo-messiah is not here yet, and there's still war on earth, and that one world government not finished, then the end is not yet.

3) the "abomination of desolation" Jesus mentioned from the Book of Daniel, which is about an idol for false worship setup in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem, has to be manifested.

4). some of Christ's servants must be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him to the whole world by The Holy Spirit, speaking the cloven tongue of Pentecost. Those two events have yet to occur, and are the actual prophetic events of Joel 2 which Peter referred back to with the cloven tongue on Pentecost being an example.

5). image of the beast and its mark instituted, and those refusing it being delivered up. That has yet to occur today also.


Thus Christian brethren being persecuted and suffering tribulations for being a Christian have existed throughout the history of Christ's Church, and is not the specific signs which our Lord Jesus gave for the very end of this world.

Brothertom said:

The Great Tribulation has already manifesting in parts of the World today....with millions fleeing the bloodletting & terrors of Islamic genocide....to all who refuse to bow to Allah & declare him God & Lord.
http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/mass-exodus-christians-muslim-lands/?utm_source=RadicalIslam.org&utm_campaign=bedcb0c1df-issue_915_16_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_01be8b04e3-bedcb0c1df-2755541#fm

Of course, many believe that America sits a Queen, & shall see no sorrow. America will be invaded & occupied, with "conversion centers" to Islam; with beheadings & crucifictions of Christians who refuse....just like Nigeria today.

"Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

" And authority was given him over EVERY tribe, tongue, and nation." .....Revelation 13.

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."....EVEN HERE, IN AMERICA.

I have written that I have met the Anti-Christ & the false prophet, on a journey to North Africa...& I have...Osama Bin Laden risen from the sea...& the most dreadful male-witch with him one could imagine....Beasts. [ I witnessed huge pillars of fire he called down 3 times...]..[ September, 26th, 2012 ]

It could be that we have entered into the 7 year period of tribulation as of September 26th, 2012. 1260 days after that date would be the mid point, where the anti-Christ is anointed with all satanic power...March 9th, 2016...the day of a powerful full solar eclipse...& possibly the day [ or near ] that America falls. We will see a massive Air war then around Katrina's path...that America will lose, for Air Superiority...& after our war bases are annihilated through-out this land, a full scale invasion will occur....& the angel spoke as I saw them marching, mean & lean, out of the sea..."20 MILLION!"..the number of the American invasion force....& they will go to cities to occupy them...& then mop up the country-side at their liesure.
This will be brutal, but tending to mellow out as multitudes convert to Islam, & accept the mark to buy & sell...but through it all, there will yet be a remant here when Jesus returns.

As far as Pre-Tribulation rapture folks...If you are born again...then God will show you. The real question...is HOW to we prepare & whatshould we do?

"When the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent."

That time, times & half a time is 3 &1/2 years...the exact time of the GREAT TRIBULATION period...which means to me that God will make a way for the remnant, no matter what. TRUST GOD, MORE & MORE EACH DAY...& WORSHIP JESUS NO MATTER THE COST....is the answer as to how.

Click to expand...

Thus says The Lord God: PEOPLES OF THE EARTH! YOUR ATROCITIES HAVE KINDLED A GREAT FIRE WITHIN ME! I AM ENRAGED AS I LOOK UPON ALL THESE MURDERED INNOCENT! MY FURY HAS COME UP INTO MY FACE AS I LOOK UPON ALL YOUR FALSE GODS, O ADULTEROUS AND PERVERSE GENERATION!
Lo, multitudes of idols fill every corner! Both the believer and unbeliever bow down and serve their gods! For ALL nations worship the works of their own hands! Lo, they have placed the creation and the love of their own ideas over their Creator! False deities abound, while science and corrupt religion rules over them! Mere theories become truth and doctrine, and lawlessness is widely accepted! The love of money has become their new taskmaster; and materialism, their god!... Behold, sins of every kind imaginable flow through every land! Yea, as a mighty river it flows into every nation, reaching unto new heights as the walls are broken down, overtopped by the quickly rising waters! The levees are eroded from beneath, undermined continually, widening the breach!...


Behold! A great flood of sin has ensued! A terrible deluge!
Covering the face of the whole Earth!...

And still, the fear of The Lord is all but forgotten!...

THUS THE CUP OF THE WRATH OF MY FURY IS COME TO THE FULL!


For My Kingdom comes! And MY will shall be done on Earth as in Heaven! Even as I had purposed it from the beginning, so shall it be done to this generation! For My throne is set high above the highest heavens, and the Earth is but a footstool set beneath My feet!... FOR I AM THE LORD! YAHUWAH IS MY NAME!
Therefore, let the enemies of The Lord be gathered; let them be gathered together in one place... Let the whole earth bow down! Let every high mountain be crushed beneath the weight of My indignation, until everything high and lofty is broken down, and every stronghold of man is brought down with a great crash!... Until every city is plowed like a field!... CUT DOWN THE TREES! Let neither stump nor root be left in it! Break off the branches and destroy every vine!
For the vine of man is wickedness, and the stronghold of man is a dwelling place of evil. For every pillar of man is a tree of abomination; his every branch bears rotten fruit to infect the masses. Lo, his root plunges ever deeper into darkness, that he might secure his place and gain strength in his rebellion against The Lord.


Therefore, I must remove My sheep and gather up every lamb...

And DESTROY all these kingdoms of men!

Excerpt from:

THE CUP OF THE WRATH OF MY FURY IS COME TO THE FULL
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=THE_CUP_OF_THE_WRATH_OF_MY_FURY_IS_COME_TO_THE_FULL

'the world' spoken about was the known world - the Roman Empire. And yes, the persecution of Christians was perceived as the end of the world.....then, in what could only be a work of God - the Entire Known World was converted to Christianity. We are now waiting for Christ's return.

Shalom, aspen2.

aspen2 said:

'the world' spoken about was the known world - the Roman Empire. And yes, the persecution of Christians was perceived as the end of the world.....then, in what could only be a work of God - the Entire Known World was converted to Christianity. We are now waiting for Christ's return.

Click to expand...

"The Entire Known World was converted to Christianity"??!!! Talk about delusion! They may have "converted" because it was the "in" thing to do when Constantine "converted," but they were HARDLY truly converted to Christianity!



Shalom, Trumpeter.

Trumpeter said:

Thus says The Lord God: PEOPLES OF THE EARTH! YOUR ATROCITIES HAVE KINDLED A GREAT FIRE WITHIN ME! I AM ENRAGED AS I LOOK UPON ALL THESE MURDERED INNOCENT! MY FURY HAS COME UP INTO MY FACE AS I LOOK UPON ALL YOUR FALSE GODS, O ADULTEROUS AND PERVERSE GENERATION!
Lo, multitudes of idols fill every corner! Both the believer and unbeliever bow down and serve their gods! For ALL nations worship the works of their own hands! Lo, they have placed the creation and the love of their own ideas over their Creator! False deities abound, while science and corrupt religion rules over them! Mere theories become truth and doctrine, and lawlessness is widely accepted! The love of money has become their new taskmaster; and materialism, their god!... Behold, sins of every kind imaginable flow through every land! Yea, as a mighty river it flows into every nation, reaching unto new heights as the walls are broken down, overtopped by the quickly rising waters! The levees are eroded from beneath, undermined continually, widening the breach!...


Behold! A great flood of sin has ensued! A terrible deluge!

Covering the face of the whole Earth!...



And still, the fear of The Lord is all but forgotten!...



THUS THE CUP OF THE WRATH OF MY FURY IS COME TO THE FULL!



For My Kingdom comes! And MY will shall be done on Earth as in Heaven! Even as I had purposed it from the beginning, so shall it be done to this generation! For My throne is set high above the highest heavens, and the Earth is but a footstool set beneath My feet!... FOR I AM THE LORD! YAHUWAH IS MY NAME!
Therefore, let the enemies of The Lord be gathered; let them be gathered together in one place... Let the whole earth bow down! Let every high mountain be crushed beneath the weight of My indignation, until everything high and lofty is broken down, and every stronghold of man is brought down with a great crash!... Until every city is plowed like a field!... CUT DOWN THE TREES! Let neither stump nor root be left in it! Break off the branches and destroy every vine!
For the vine of man is wickedness, and the stronghold of man is a dwelling place of evil. For every pillar of man is a tree of abomination; his every branch bears rotten fruit to infect the masses. Lo, his root plunges ever deeper into darkness, that he might secure his place and gain strength in his rebellion against The Lord.


Therefore, I must remove My sheep and gather up every lamb...



And DESTROY all these kingdoms of men!


Excerpt from:

THE CUP OF THE WRATH OF MY FURY IS COME TO THE FULL
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=THE_CUP_OF_THE_WRATH_OF_MY_FURY_IS_COME_TO_THE_FULL

Click to expand...

I don't know who the author of "The Cup of the Wrath of My Fury Is Come To the Full," but he's starting to make me mad, as are you for quoting him! This drivel doesn't even come CLOSE to the words of YHWH, the God of the Bible! God is NOT going the "DESTROY all these kingdoms of men"! They are the Messiah's INHERITANCE!!! Don't think to speak for God. He can do JUST FINE without your help! And, His name is NOT "Yahuwah!" Where'd you come up with that mix-up?

Trumpeter said:

Thus says The Lord God: PEOPLES OF THE EARTH! YOUR ATROCITIES HAVE KINDLED A GREAT FIRE WITHIN ME! I AM ENRAGED AS I LOOK UPON ALL THESE MURDERED INNOCENT! MY FURY HAS COME UP INTO MY FACE AS I LOOK UPON ALL YOUR FALSE GODS, O ADULTEROUS AND PERVERSE GENERATION!
Lo, multitudes of idols fill every corner! Both the believer and unbeliever bow down and serve their gods! For ALL nations worship the works of their own hands! Lo, they have placed the creation and the love of their own ideas over their Creator! False deities abound, while science and corrupt religion rules over them! Mere theories become truth and doctrine, and lawlessness is widely accepted! The love of money has become their new taskmaster; and materialism, their god!... Behold, sins of every kind imaginable flow through every land! Yea, as a mighty river it flows into every nation, reaching unto new heights as the walls are broken down, overtopped by the quickly rising waters! The levees are eroded from beneath, undermined continually, widening the breach!...


Behold! A great flood of sin has ensued! A terrible deluge!

Covering the face of the whole Earth!...



And still, the fear of The Lord is all but forgotten!...



THUS THE CUP OF THE WRATH OF MY FURY IS COME TO THE FULL!



For My Kingdom comes! And MY will shall be done on Earth as in Heaven! Even as I had purposed it from the beginning, so shall it be done to this generation! For My throne is set high above the highest heavens, and the Earth is but a footstool set beneath My feet!... FOR I AM THE LORD! YAHUWAH IS MY NAME!
Therefore, let the enemies of The Lord be gathered; let them be gathered together in one place... Let the whole earth bow down! Let every high mountain be crushed beneath the weight of My indignation, until everything high and lofty is broken down, and every stronghold of man is brought down with a great crash!... Until every city is plowed like a field!... CUT DOWN THE TREES! Let neither stump nor root be left in it! Break off the branches and destroy every vine!
For the vine of man is wickedness, and the stronghold of man is a dwelling place of evil. For every pillar of man is a tree of abomination; his every branch bears rotten fruit to infect the masses. Lo, his root plunges ever deeper into darkness, that he might secure his place and gain strength in his rebellion against The Lord.


Therefore, I must remove My sheep and gather up every lamb...



And DESTROY all these kingdoms of men!


Excerpt from:

THE CUP OF THE WRATH OF MY FURY IS COME TO THE FULL
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=THE_CUP_OF_THE_WRATH_OF_MY_FURY_IS_COME_TO_THE_FULL

Click to expand...

A true prophet sent by God would not preach the idea that Christ's Church is going to be removed from this earth. That idea originates from the 1830's doctrines of men by Edward Irving and John Darby, and is called the Secret Rapture, or Pre-Tribulational Rapture.

Christ's Church is HERE to stay. Christ is coming to establish His Kingdom HERE, on earth, upon David's throne, which is an earthly throne. God knows how to protect His while dealing with the wicked right next to them.