Flow of Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy

veteran · Nov 2, 2012

terry said:
Well, after seeing Reed like a Rod's writings I figured as much, but to clarify I asked you.

Reed like a Rod wrote: " I can only ask God and hope for the spirit that Son Of Man had "
And that sure shows his aptitude. Seriously, I do not beilieve he read what SoM has written and he certainly has not tested it.

Though our outlines differ... yopou believe yours is right and can back it with scripture... I believe mine is right and I can back it with scripture and so it is of great ppossibility one of us is correct, This means becasue we both understand each other's idea,,, whichever way we goes... we both will be ready...and that is a good thing.

Do you have the Daily Sacrifice starting 220 days after the setting of the cornerstone? It appears you do.
So accuracy can be understood either when the Daily Sacrifice begins or the setting of the Cornerstone.

At the present, I feel the division that the 2300 days period creates gives the probabiity of those events. I notice you place the 2300 days of Dan.8:14 at a completely different time.

...............................|--------------------------- 7 Years ("one week" of Dan.9:27)------------|
"league" (Dan.11)--|-temple build-|-sacrifices---| MID POINT |---- tribulation -------->||< Christ's coming
..............................|-220 days-------|-1040 days---| MID POINT |------1260 days---------|- cleansing
.......................................................|-----------------2300 days of Dan.8:13-14------------|

Look at the last 3 trumpet - 3 woe periods in Revelation. The two witnesses who prophesy for 1260 days do that on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. The 7th trumpet - 3rd woe shows the tribulation end. That 1260 days of God's two witnesses is the same timing as the 42 months the Gentiles tread Jerusalem in that same Rev.11 chapter (42 months = 1260 days = time, times, and an half = 3.5 years, all the same amount of time, just different descriptions of the same time period).

Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(KJV)

That suggests the "daily sacrifice" starts the period of 2300 days, and it ends with the finish of the sanctuary being trodden (42 months that Gentiles tread Jerusalem per Rev.11). That's why I say the end of the 2300 day period must be placed at the end of that 42 months, which is also the end of the 1260 days witness by God's two witnesses of Rev.11. Notice specifically in Dan.8:13 what events are being covered, that it does not include the period of 'cleansing'. The idea of cleansing is mentioned after the 2300 days answer is given. So we cannot place the cleansing prior to nor within the 2300 days.

Endtime · Nov 2, 2012

veteran said:
that's your opinion only, and the chart I offerred is not from Darby nor Scofield. I do not adhere to pretribulationalsim. It's my own chart timeline based on the events given in Daniel, Revelation, Matt.24, Mark 13, 1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4 & 5, Ezekiel, etc.

That's a falsehood from SDA teaching. Daniel's 70th week has never been accounted for yet. Only 69 weeks of the prophecy have been completed. The rest of those statements are pretty much, nuts with taking Scripture out of context.

No, it's my own chart that I only created here 'during' our discussion on Daniel on this forum. I can cover every point of it according to the written Scripture.

My chart can't be compared with charts those of the Pre-trib school like Darby, LaHaye, etc. would make, because all one need do is notice where I charted the time of our Lord Jesus' return, i.e., AFTER the tribulation. Just so happens, that's the time our Lord Jesus declared for His coming per Matt.24 and Mark 13, and it's also shown with other events He and His Apostles linked it to, and as also Daniel was shown.

Nor can my chart be compared with those on a Pre-Wrath position or Preterist position, because once again, it adhere's strictly to the timing Christ revealed His return and gathering of His Church on earth, which is as I said before, AFTER the tribulation. Christ's coming is a post-tribulational coming, and it's also the same time point of God's wrath upon the wicked and the battle of Armageddon, and the "as a thief" timing, and the "day of the Lord" timing, etc., all points I listed there with the time of our Lord Jesus' second coming to end the tribulation time.

Thusly, those here trying to discredit that chart have YET BEEN ABLE to do so here. And the fact that someone would from the start try to discredit it without even weighing the events listed shows what? It shows some come here to bear 'false witness'.

So if you, or anyone else wants to TRY and discredit that chart I created, then the requirement is it MUST be backed in The Scriptures, and not by men's traditions pushed in the various seminaries, nor by simple personal opinion.

it is still based on Darby, Schofield and Hal Lindsay teachings. The things in it are not scriptural. If you reject one of their teachings as false you would think that you would recognize all as being false and throw all of it out. Instead of dragging a little truth around with sludge and gew dripping from it.

Israel in the middle east has no place in it at all according to Saint John. But you think you and Darby and Schofield and Hal Lindsay know better.

terry said:
Well, after seeing Reed like a Rod's writings I figured as much, but to clarify I asked you.

Reed like a Rod wrote: " I can only ask God and hope for the spirit that Son Of Man had "
And that sure shows his aptitude. Seriously, I do not beilieve he read what SoM has written and he certainly has not tested it.

Though our outlines differ... yopou believe yours is right and can back it with scripture... I believe mine is right and I can back it with scripture and so it is of great ppossibility one of us is correct, This means becasue we both understand each other's idea,,, whichever way we goes... we both will be ready...and that is a good thing.

Do you have the Daily Sacrifice starting 220 days after the setting of the cornerstone? It appears you do.
So accuracy can be understood either when the Daily Sacrifice begins or the setting of the Cornerstone.

I had the good pleasure of Knowing Son of man in person. If you could understand what you read you would have known that. Even though son of man has told you numerous times it is God that will take the daily sacrifice away by his two hosts. if you could understand what you are reading instead of being founded on the Darby, Schofield, Hal Lindsay trash. you read the scripture with a debased foundation instead of letting the scripture speak the truth. What you and Veteran don't understand is that you will be accountable for teaching and sharing this trash.

veteran · Nov 2, 2012

Reed like unto a Rod said:
it is still based on Darby, Schofield and Hal Lindsay teachings. The things in it are not scriptural. If you reject one of their teachings as false you would think that you would recognize all as being false and throw all of it out. Instead of dragging a little truth around with sludge and gew dripping from it.

Israel in the middle east has no place in it at all according to Saint John. But you think you and Darby and Schofield and Hal Lindsay know better.

Just more 'hot air' accusations with nothing to back it up again I see.

tgwprophet · Nov 3, 2012

Veteran... Reed like unto a Rod is Endtime and is probably Son of Man as well.

Reed like unto a Rod... I have met Jesus face to face, and he could have easily told me of errors I had written in my first book and instructed me to a different course. He did not, instead just stopped to ask how I was doing. Next, I took the writings of many theologians and descerned them, they did not direct my path but insted was used that I could see divese perspectives, like what I am doing here in this forum. My writings were based on an unshakeable foundation not one from religion but wisdom. No one has ever shaken the foundation I based my understandding and writings on...because it is a sound base. And it is unlike any base Darby, Hal Lindsey, or Schofield ever wrote.

Does that mean I think my understanding is 100% and contains no errors... not hardly. Veteran and I have been toggling information, perspectives and speculations back and forth for quite some time. Also there are other contributors that have provided valid points needing consideration, like Trekson, Oliver, Bible Scribe ( not sure where or why he seems to have left) Retrobyter, Tom Webster, Arnie, Martinlawancescott, and more... All of the diverse perspectives I appreciate... but if a person comes on here and claims they are one of the two witnesses or knows who they are...or what it is they will do or from where they will originate or what their heitage is... I will challenge that, for I know them and God showed me and more. I do not lay this gauntlet down and expect no one to be able to challenge me..instead I tell you and everyone I am here to take any proper challenge concerning them. I can do this because... I know.

Once again I offer truce to a forum member... Reed... back up re-group and come back with a somewhat polite directive and I wil do the same... or more.
Veteran, notice I have not attempted to align the trumps yet. Until a foundation can be established with just the given time increments that it shows some resembalance of a working model I feel it would merely complicate matters to obscurity. If you wish to include the trumpe then the vials then the seals then the horses all at once it can be be too complex to align properly.
Certainly, the order of things should be able to be aligned in itss simplest form then add the next step. I am not trying to discount your direction just the mass complexcities compiling everything at once can do to stifle resolve. This is not a firm stance, meaning given more understanding and my mind could easily be swayed in the method of discovery.

Raeneske · Nov 3, 2012

Brothers and sisters, there wouldn't be arguements about the 7 year tribulation, if one fact was not forgotten:

For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. (Jeremiah 29:10 KJV)

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. (Numbers 14:34 KJV)

Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. (Ezekiel 4:4, 5 KJV)

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Revelation 13:5 KJV)

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:7, 11, 12 KJV)

All those are definite time prophecies. Like Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, they are definite times. I ask, where did God add an illogical, unreasonable time gap inbetween those? Adding the time gap makes no sense, there is no reasoning behind it.

Since when did God add an arbitrary time gap between His specific time prophecies? Where is the Biblical Basis for that theory? It is without reason, and without reason means that you could arbitrarily add a time gap between any other definite time prophecies. In these last days, when we need to cling to the Bible, would God add an arbitrary time gap? No. This is a doctrine of men. Please, stop trying to harmonize, and stuff prophecies of Daniel and Revelation into 7 years. For one thing, those 7 years are past, for they have already finished about 2000 years ago.

I realize you may have grown up with this prophecy my brethern and sisters. I grew up not knowing this, but when I became a Christian I did believe this. However, upon further studies, and knowledge of the past, it is made evident: This was a doctrine, manyfactured, to get the eyes off the real Anti-Christ. If you cannot believe that, i'm sorry - That's why the Anti-Christ did that.

Can almost the whole world be wrong on the 7 year tribulation? Yes. Consider the fact, that it is to be as Noah's day. Was not the anti-duluvian (sp?) world wrong about the flood? Does not Revelation say, Satan deceiveth the world?

I received one post before, that admittedly said they could not find such a basis for the split. But they tried to say that History showed that this is what God meant, paraphrasing of course.

There are so many other people out there, who have different a story and different times set for history. For this reason, how can this be entirely trustworthy? It cannot. The only surefire way to know which history is real, is to use a Biblical Basis to find out these answers. What I mean is, it's false history, unless the Bible actually supports it. The Bible does not support the splitting of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Therefore, I do not care what history says there was a split. False history will support false prophecy. It wouldn't be deception if it was so easy. Search what the scriptures say, and they shall tell you what is true history.

dismas · Nov 3, 2012

Raeneske said:
Brothers and sisters, there wouldn't be arguements about the 7 year tribulation, if one fact was not forgotten:

For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. (Jeremiah 29:10 KJV)

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. (Numbers 14:34 KJV)

Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. (Ezekiel 4:4, 5 KJV)

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Revelation 13:5 KJV)

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:7, 11, 12 KJV)

All those are definite time prophecies. Like Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, they are definite times. I ask, where did God add an illogical, unreasonable time gap inbetween those? Adding the time gap makes no sense, there is no reasoning behind it.

Since when did God add an arbitrary time gap between His specific time prophecies? Where is the Biblical Basis for that theory? It is without reason, and without reason means that you could arbitrarily add a time gap between any other definite time prophecies. In these last days, when we need to cling to the Bible, would God add an arbitrary time gap? No. This is a doctrine of men. Please, stop trying to harmonize, and stuff prophecies of Daniel and Revelation into 7 years. For one thing, those 7 years are past, for they have already finished about 2000 years ago.

I realize you may have grown up with this prophecy my brethern and sisters. I grew up not knowing this, but when I became a Christian I did believe this. However, upon further studies, and knowledge of the past, it is made evident: This was a doctrine, manyfactured, to get the eyes off the real Anti-Christ. If you cannot believe that, i'm sorry - That's why the Anti-Christ did that.

Can almost the whole world be wrong on the 7 year tribulation? Yes. Consider the fact, that it is to be as Noah's day. Was not the anti-duluvian (sp?) world wrong about the flood? Does not Revelation say, Satan deceiveth the world?

I received one post before, that admittedly said they could not find such a basis for the split. But they tried to say that History showed that this is what God meant, paraphrasing of course.

There are so many other people out there, who have different a story and different times set for history. For this reason, how can this be entirely trustworthy? It cannot. The only surefire way to know which history is real, is to use a Biblical Basis to find out these answers. What I mean is, it's false history, unless the Bible actually supports it. The Bible does not support the splitting of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Therefore, I do not care what history says there was a split. False history will support false prophecy. It wouldn't be deception if it was so easy. Search what the scriptures say, and they shall tell you what is true history.

There is no splitting of the 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks/ shabuwa prophecy refers to years. Here's Daniel 9

In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes[sup][a][/sup] (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian[sup][b][/sup] kingdom— [sup]2 [/sup]in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. [sup]3 [/sup]So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

The whole chapter is about the redemption of Jerusalem taking 70 years. It applied to "making an end of sins" - so it is applicable to the end of the age as well.

The going forth of the commandment to restore Israel was 11-29-47. Add 70 years to get 11-29-17. The difference between 70 year lunar and solar day counts is 1 solar year and 2.5 days (hence the day of the Lord being a year?). After 69 years messiah comes, by solar reckoning, 11-29-16. But Christ said that if the days were not shortened no flesh would be spared - meaning he comes sooner than this expected date.

God saves people out of Jacob's trouble on 6-4-16, (for Christians this will be 5-21-13 through 11-1-16) ending the Trumpet 6 war. The Jews come back to God for this and start the 3rd Temple. This is the beginning of the "7 year tribulation".

terry said:
Heres my outline:
Abomination of Desolation mid point
Cornerstone set l Armageddon
...........Daily Sacrifice ........* l-----------------7 years----------of----------l l------the-------Tribulation-----------------------l
l---1010 days maximum----l..............*( 30 days).................................l--- Jews kick False-messiah out of Israel
l-----------------------------2300 days------------------------------------------------------l Temple Cleansed
.............................................l----------two witnesses 1,260 days--------l l--- Witnesses ascend to heaven
...............................................l---Gentiles trod Courtyard--1,260 days---l

* Notice Jews kick both False messian and Gentiles out a same time. And for the same reason... because they recognize he is false. Veteran, the way your outline is allot of things must transpire on the exact same day.
My outline is staggered - should be, and can be.

When the cornerstone is set the Gentiles are not yet trodding the courtyard... but in just a couple days they begin to as this is a noteable time in history and the Christians know this. However, this time couldd begin BEFORE the corner stone is set because it is known 30 days ahead of time that this will be done. Of course, this would mean most likely the false-messiah would be the ones making the Christians leave just before he commits the Abonination of Desolation. Either way..it is still valid...as I see it.

Also, does anone have any idea WHO will deliver the mortal wound tto the Beast?

To answer who kills the beast, it helps to know who the beast from the sea is - Prince William.

-Pilots the "Sea King" http://www.birmingha...ires-gun-281529

-Owns the "hereford endeavor" life-boat. http://www.radaronli...uty-0�� Hereford Hereford refers to a red colored cattle breed in England, in other words a red hefer sacrifice for the starting of the 3rd Temple. http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/Hereford

- the 666th year of the Royal Order of the Garter is 2013, Prince William's gemetrial number (his brother's number is 1666).

- Prince Harry is already gearing up to have people make people worship an image of the beast.
http://www.usmagazin...-brazil-2012103
Why was it in Brazil? That's where Solomon's Temple is ... right now! http://thelede.blogs...e-in-sao-paulo/

- drives a car with the license plate "WMS 666 T" http://newspaceman.b...l-for-cats.html

I could literally go on and on about it. British Zionism is Satanism, pure and simple (and remember, the British are the ones who created Israel with the Balfour Declaration?) It is all part of a Satanic ritual. Satanists are deliberately fulfilling prophecy. (Satan owns the world, right?) If you are curious to read more about this, here's a link: http://www.grailcode.net/

So William is the Beast from the sea. He is the sacrifice to start the 3rd Temple, in imitation of Jesus, who had a mortal wound (from his crown of thorns) and lived. Who killed Jesus? The king of Babylon at the prodding of the Jews. So, the king of babylon will kill him. It is Zionist prophecy (the Zohar) that Armilus (the Jewish false messiah), who they explicitly say is the leader of Rome (the Pope), will kill him.

Raeneske · Nov 3, 2012

dismas said:
There is no splitting of the 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks/ shabuwa prophecy refers to years. Here's Daniel 9

In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes[sup][a][/sup] (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian[sup][b][/sup] kingdom— [sup]2 [/sup]in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. [sup]3 [/sup]So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

The whole chapter is about the redemption of Jerusalem taking 70 years. It applied to "making an end of sins" - so it is applicable to the end of the age as well.

The going forth of the commandment to restore Israel was 11-29-47. Add 70 years to get 11-29-17. The difference between 70 year lunar and solar day counts is 1 solar year and 2.5 days (hence the day of the Lord being a year?). After 69 years messiah comes, by solar reckoning, 11-29-16. But Christ said that if the days were not shortened no flesh would be spared - meaning he comes sooner than this expected date.

God saves people out of Jacob's trouble on 6-4-16, (for Christians this will be 5-21-13 through 11-1-16) ending the Trumpet 6 war. The Jews come back to God for this and start the 3rd Temple. This is the beginning of the "7 year tribulation".

To answer who kills the beast, it helps to know who the beast from the sea is - Prince William.

-Pilots the "Sea King" http://www.birmingha...ires-gun-281529

-Owns the "hereford endeavor" life-boat. http://www.radaronli...ty-0�� Hereford Hereford refers to a red colored cattle breed in England, in other words a red hefer sacrifice for the starting of the 3rd Temple. http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/Hereford

dismas said:
- the 666th year of the Royal Order of the Garter is 2013, Prince William's gemetrial number (his brother's number is 1666).

- Prince Harry is already gearing up to have people make people worship an image of the beast.
http://www.usmagazin...-brazil-2012103
Why was it in Brazil? That's where Solomon's Temple is ... right now! http://thelede.blogs...e-in-sao-paulo/

- drives a car with the license plate "WMS 666 T" http://newspaceman.b...l-for-cats.html

I could literally go on and on about it. British Zionism is Satanism, pure and simple (and remember, the British are the ones who created Israel with the Balfour Declaration?) It is all part of a Satanic ritual. Satanists are deliberately fulfilling prophecy. (Satan owns the world, right?) If you are curious to read more about this, here's a link: http://www.grailcode.net/

So William is the Beast from the sea. He is the sacrifice to start the 3rd Temple, in imitation of Jesus, who had a mortal wound (from his crown of thorns) and lived. Who killed Jesus? The king of Babylon at the prodding of the Jews. So, the king of babylon will kill him. It is Zionist prophecy (the Zohar) that Armilus (the Jewish false messiah), who they explicitly say is the leader of Rome (the Pope), will kill him.

Yes, there is no splitting of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy. But 70 weeks does not mean 70 years, it means 490 years. The 70 weeks are 70 prophetic weeks. The prophecy of Jeremiah is not the same prophecy that God gives Daniel. What Daniel understood was the end of the 70 years prophecy that Jeremiah gave in chapter 25.

Jeremiah 25:11-12 - And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Daniel understood that this prophecy was over. This prophecy is not the prophecy that was given to Daniel. This refers to Jerusalem’s destruction. The other refers to the time left for them to make an end to sins, and for the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:1-2 - In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel plainly states himself, he understood the prophecy, the number of years. He understood that time was over. But he then set his face to seek the Lord. This is not the same prophecy that God gave to Jeremiah. It is entirely different. Daniel’s 70 weeks is prophetic in language, and Jeremiah’s prophecy is explicit in language. 70 weeks mean 490 days. 490 days means 490 years because of the “a day for a year” rule.

Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy has already finished. It started almost two thousand years ago. It would have to be over by now, being a definite time prophecy.

veteran · Nov 3, 2012

terry said:
Veteran... Reed like unto a Rod is Endtime and is probably Son of Man as well.

If that is true then the adiminstrators should easiily be able to find out by doing a trace.

Veteran, notice I have not attempted to align the trumps yet. Until a foundation can be established with just the given time increments that it shows some resembalance of a working model I feel it would merely complicate matters to obscurity. If you wish to include the trumpe then the vials then the seals then the horses all at once it can be be too complex to align properly.
Certainly, the order of things should be able to be aligned in itss simplest form then add the next step. I am not trying to discount your direction just the mass complexcities compiling everything at once can do to stifle resolve. This is not a firm stance, meaning given more understanding and my mind could easily be swayed in the method of discovery.

The last three trumpets are the most important, simply because of the fact that Jesus linked 3 specific Woe periods with those. And He showed John a clear dividing line of when each one begins and ends. So I don't see how anyone serious about understanding endtime prophecy wouldn't want to understand that with the rest of prophecy elsewhere He gave for the end of this world.

Raeneske said:
Brothers and sisters, there wouldn't be arguements about the 7 year tribulation, if one fact was not forgotten:

For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. (Jeremiah 29:10 KJV)

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. (Numbers 14:34 KJV)

Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. (Ezekiel 4:4, 5 KJV)

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Revelation 13:5 KJV)

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:7, 11, 12 KJV)

All those are definite time prophecies. Like Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, they are definite times. I ask, where did God add an illogical, unreasonable time gap inbetween those? Adding the time gap makes no sense, there is no reasoning behind it.

Since when did God add an arbitrary time gap between His specific time prophecies? Where is the Biblical Basis for that theory? It is without reason, and without reason means that you could arbitrarily add a time gap between any other definite time prophecies. In these last days, when we need to cling to the Bible, would God add an arbitrary time gap? No. This is a doctrine of men. Please, stop trying to harmonize, and stuff prophecies of Daniel and Revelation into 7 years. For one thing, those 7 years are past, for they have already finished about 2000 years ago.

I realize you may have grown up with this prophecy my brethern and sisters. I grew up not knowing this, but when I became a Christian I did believe this. However, upon further studies, and knowledge of the past, it is made evident: This was a doctrine, manyfactured, to get the eyes off the real Anti-Christ. If you cannot believe that, i'm sorry - That's why the Anti-Christ did that.

Can almost the whole world be wrong on the 7 year tribulation? Yes. Consider the fact, that it is to be as Noah's day. Was not the anti-duluvian (sp?) world wrong about the flood? Does not Revelation say, Satan deceiveth the world?

I received one post before, that admittedly said they could not find such a basis for the split. But they tried to say that History showed that this is what God meant, paraphrasing of course.

There are so many other people out there, who have different a story and different times set for history. For this reason, how can this be entirely trustworthy? It cannot. The only surefire way to know which history is real, is to use a Biblical Basis to find out these answers. What I mean is, it's false history, unless the Bible actually supports it. The Bible does not support the splitting of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Therefore, I do not care what history says there was a split. False history will support false prophecy. It wouldn't be deception if it was so easy. Search what the scriptures say, and they shall tell you what is true history.

That reasoning is without Biblical foundation. The different periods given in Dan.9 with the 70 weeks prophecy have specific events attached to them. Reading the prophecies in Ezekiel is one thing, reading those in Daniel is another. They may overlap, but they do not cancel each other. And there is nothing in Ezekiel that cancels the final "one week" (7 years) in Dan.9:27, except those on false doctrine who try to persuade others to disregard God's Word as written.

Trekson · Nov 3, 2012

Please read my new post ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED based on this very important topic.

Retrobyter · Nov 4, 2012

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
The 'framework' only comes from understanding the 'details' first.

Daniel is not the only Scripture revealing the coming Antichrist for the end of this world. Supposed requirements to be a scholar in Hebrew is not necessary. A study of the 70 sevens prophecy in Daniel without associated study in the New Testament Books which give more information is like trying to build a foundation without foundation stones.
...

The "league" is made first, then the building of the temple, and then sacrifices begin and continue until the middle of Daniel's "one week", per Dan.9:27. The placing of the abomination of desolation is what ends the sacrifices, because the AOD will be a replacement for those sacrifices. The passover sacrifices the orthodox Jews of the Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful movement have been doing the past few years on a hill overlooking the temple mount are not those sacrifices of Daniel. Easy to know that because there's been no "league" associated with them like the Daniel prophecy requires.
...

That is a completely independent idea apart from the Daniel prophecy. You're speculating outside the required parameters of fulfillment. The required prophetic parameters are not only in the Book of Daniel. They're also in NT Scripture like Matt.24:15, 2 Thess.2:3-4, and Rev.11:1-2.

The problem here is that you are basically, fundamentally WRONG when you say, "Daniel is not the only Scripture revealing the coming Antichrist for the end of this world." It is not EVEN a Scripture passage that reveals the coming "Antichrist!" By starting with that wrong premise, the rest of the argument is tainted, regardless how you argue!

Now, you had said,...

The deceived orthodox Jews that will accept the false-messiah as The Messiah will not even 'know' who they have accepted during the tribulation time. They will think they have believed on the True Messiah they're still waiting for today! So your logic does not align with God's Word on this. Instead, God's Word reveals the deceived in Jerusalem will mourn and want to hide from Christ Jesus when He appears, and because why? Because at the point when Jesus appears, only then will they KNOW they had been deceived, and fell away to accept a fake-messiah in His place. It's that simple. That's why they will want the hills to fall on them to hide from the face of The Lamb.

and then you say,...

It's not my explanation, it's what is written...

Zech 12:9-14
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
(KJV)

You're not reading the passage correctly any better than terry did! They are MOURNING HIM! They are LAMENTING FOR HIM! The key is to be found in the four named families below: Why are THESE particular families listed and not others? They don't even seem to be related: David the king, okay, but Nathan the prophet? Levi the tribe? And who's Shimei? Wasn't that the name of the man who cursed David?

The ANSWERS to these questions is to be found in Luke 3:23-38:

Luke 3:23-38
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
KJV

It is much clearer in the Complete Jewish Bible:

Zechariah 12:9-14
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB

These families are not HORIZONTALLY related; they are VERTICALLY related in Yeshua`s family tree! This is Natan (Nathan), the son of David! This is Levi, the great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandson of David! The Shem`i were a family 27 generations removed from David, but only 15 generations removed from Yeshua` the Messiah!

This mourning doesn't have anything to do with Luke 23:27-30! Luke 23:27-30 was Yeshua`s warning of what was soon to come in 66-70 A.D!

What IS interesting and informative is that for these generations to be mourning Him together, they are doing so AFTER the resurrection (which stands to reason since Yeshua` is already back and "will seek to destroy all nations who attack Yerushalayim")!

Can you see, yet, why I say you don't understand the basics of what is going on in the prophecies? But, you have CLOUDED the issue and hidden the truth from your view by the reasoning of your theology!

Where else is that idea written of the deceived in Jerusalem saying to the mountains, "Fall on us", and to the hills, "Cover us"?

Rev 6:14-16
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb":
(KJV)

The idea is shame in knowing they fell away when Christ appears. That's why they will seek to hide in shame from Christ then, and want the mountains of hills to hide their shame. That's what that mourning of Zech.12 will be about.

It's easy to not become part of that group of deceived Jews that will do that when Jesus appears. Simply refuse to bow to the coming false messiah prepared to come to sit in the temple in Jerusalem just prior to Christ's coming.

What? Two different groups of people can't say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us" on different occasions? You're making a non-sequitor argument. It doesn't necessarily follow that just because the words "Fall on us and hide us" were used in two different Scripture passages that they MUST be related! That's a logical fallacy.

Again, that is NOT what the mourning is about! Zechariah 12 is NOT about shame in following some "antichrist!" It's about the sorrow they feel for their GRANDSON!!! Here He has finally come into His own right as their Anointed King ALL PIERCED AND SCARRED FOR ETERNITY!!! They are happy for His Coming, but they are full of regret for the evils that He suffered!

tgwprophet · Nov 4, 2012

Dismas wrote: " To answer who kills the beast, it helps to know who the beast from the sea is - Prince William. "

You changed my words... I asked who delivers the mortal wound, not who kills the Beast, as the Beast is healed on his mortal wound.

Trekson... I wish yhou had given reference to locate the vital post of which you spoke.

Veteran... That is one of the reasons I am in this forum, but we ahould take this one step at a time.

veteran · Nov 4, 2012

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.

The problem here is that you are basically, fundamentally WRONG when you say, "Daniel is not the only Scripture revealing the coming Antichrist for the end of this world." It is not EVEN a Scripture passage that reveals the coming "Antichrist!" By starting with that wrong premise, the rest of the argument is tainted, regardless how you argue!

Again, that's only opinion without anything else to back it up.

The early Church fathers and I disagree with you. The subject of the coming Antichrist is not one belonging only to what Apostle John wrote. It is the same matter that Christ forewarned of about a coming 'pseudo-Christ' in connection with the "abomination of desolation" event of the Book of Daniel. And it is further expounded upon by Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 and 2 Cor.11, and more by Christ through John in Revelation 12 & 13.

The subject of mourning in Zech.12 is the same subject of Rev.1:7...

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

"shall wail" = Greek 'kopto', Strong's no. 2875, 'to chop; to beat the breast in grief'

Did Christ Jesus return in 70 A.D.? NO!!!

Retrobyter said:
What? Two different groups of people can't say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us" on different occasions?

The error in you logic is that those who will wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them in shame is for a specific event period, the time of Christ's literal appearance back on this earth at His second coming. That is... the subject of the 'blessed are the barren' metaphor, i.e., the time of shame for the rebellious of God's people, and the time when His elect will no more be persecuted. And that mountains and hills 'Fall on us' event is recorded at the end of Rev.6 on the 6th Seal event (the 6th Seal contains 7th trumpet and 7th Vial events).

Reed like unto a Rod said:
it is still based on Darby, Schofield and Hal Lindsay teachings. The things in it are not scriptural. If you reject one of their teachings as false you would think that you would recognize all as being false and throw all of it out. Instead of dragging a little truth around with sludge and gew dripping from it.

Israel in the middle east has no place in it at all according to Saint John. But you think you and Darby and Schofield and Hal Lindsay know better.

I had the good pleasure of Knowing Son of man in person. If you could understand what you read you would have known that. Even though son of man has told you numerous times it is God that will take the daily sacrifice away by his two hosts. if you could understand what you are reading instead of being founded on the Darby, Schofield, Hal Lindsay trash. you read the scripture with a debased foundation instead of letting the scripture speak the truth. What you and Veteran don't understand is that you will be accountable for teaching and sharing this trash.

Well, you force to me say it now. You obviously don't understand the difference with what those like Darby, Scofield, Lindsay, LaHaye, etc. taught! If you HAD known the difference, then you would have been able to recognize how my chart does NOT agree with them. Thus that means YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH AND YOU BEAR FALSE WITNESS, AND NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!

Raeneske said:
Brothers and sisters, there wouldn't be arguements about the 7 year tribulation, if one fact was not forgotten:

For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. (Jeremiah 29:10 KJV)

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. (Numbers 14:34 KJV)

Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. (Ezekiel 4:4, 5 KJV)

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Revelation 13:5 KJV)

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:7, 11, 12 KJV)

All those are definite time prophecies. Like Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, they are definite times. I ask, where did God add an illogical, unreasonable time gap inbetween those? Adding the time gap makes no sense, there is no reasoning behind it.

Since when did God add an arbitrary time gap between His specific time prophecies? Where is the Biblical Basis for that theory? It is without reason, and without reason means that you could arbitrarily add a time gap between any other definite time prophecies. In these last days, when we need to cling to the Bible, would God add an arbitrary time gap? No. This is a doctrine of men. Please, stop trying to harmonize, and stuff prophecies of Daniel and Revelation into 7 years. For one thing, those 7 years are past, for they have already finished about 2000 years ago.

I realize you may have grown up with this prophecy my brethern and sisters. I grew up not knowing this, but when I became a Christian I did believe this. However, upon further studies, and knowledge of the past, it is made evident: This was a doctrine, manyfactured, to get the eyes off the real Anti-Christ. If you cannot believe that, i'm sorry - That's why the Anti-Christ did that.

Can almost the whole world be wrong on the 7 year tribulation? Yes. Consider the fact, that it is to be as Noah's day. Was not the anti-duluvian (sp?) world wrong about the flood? Does not Revelation say, Satan deceiveth the world?

I received one post before, that admittedly said they could not find such a basis for the split. But they tried to say that History showed that this is what God meant, paraphrasing of course.

There are so many other people out there, who have different a story and different times set for history. For this reason, how can this be entirely trustworthy? It cannot. The only surefire way to know which history is real, is to use a Biblical Basis to find out these answers. What I mean is, it's false history, unless the Bible actually supports it. The Bible does not support the splitting of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Therefore, I do not care what history says there was a split. False history will support false prophecy. It wouldn't be deception if it was so easy. Search what the scriptures say, and they shall tell you what is true history.

Let's do a little test then... since you are directly challenging the Daniel 9:27 clauses as not being about any 7 year period...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, ... .
(KJV)

Explain each clause in that:

1. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."
2. "... and in the midst of the week..."
3. "... he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."
4. "... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..."

tgwprophet · Nov 4, 2012

Retrobyter when you said : " They are happy for His Coming, but they are full of regret for the evils that He suffered! " You just said it better...i think

That was quite along side of the idea I attempted to express.

Veteran wrote: Let's do a little test then... since you are directly challenging the Daniel 9:27 clauses as not being about any 7 year period...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, ... .
(KJV)

Explain each clause in that:

1. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."
2. "... and in the midst of the week..."
3. "... he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."
4. "... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..."

Veteran, I am in agreement with you here, Of course

veteran · Nov 4, 2012

terry said:
Retrobyter when you said : " They are happy for His Coming, but they are full of regret for the evils that He suffered! " You just said it better...i think

That was quite along side of the idea I attempted to express.

Veteran wrote: Let's do a little test then... since you are directly challenging the Daniel 9:27 clauses as not being about any 7 year period...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, ... .
(KJV)

Explain each clause in that:

1. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."
2. "... and in the midst of the week..."
3. "... he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."
4. "... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..."

Veteran, I am in agreement with you here, Of course

If you are in agreement with Retro about the Jews mourning for Christ in a non-shame sense when He appears, then you both are wrong in your view about it.

Their mourning will not be like how they feel sorry 'for' what happened to Christ with their thinking they have no guilt or shame. Their wanting for the mountains and hills to fall upon them means they will 'wish to die' to keep from suffering what? The 6th Seal events declare what they seek to hide from...

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?' "
(KJV)

Luke 23:28-30
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'"
(KJV)

That event is NOT upon Jews that have believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah. It will be upon the deceived of both Jews and Gentiles alike who have refused Him and worked against Him and His elect.

tgwprophet · Nov 4, 2012

I believe I did mean it in a shame for crucifying him state as well... meaning for allot of reasons
Which may mean perhaps I just haven't given it enough thought.

Raeneske · Nov 4, 2012

veteran said:
If that is true then the adiminstrators should easiily be able to find out by doing a trace.

The last three trumpets are the most important, simply because of the fact that Jesus linked 3 specific Woe periods with those. And He showed John a clear dividing line of when each one begins and ends. So I don't see how anyone serious about understanding endtime prophecy wouldn't want to understand that with the rest of prophecy elsewhere He gave for the end of this world.

That reasoning is without Biblical foundation. The different periods given in Dan.9 with the 70 weeks prophecy have specific events attached to them. Reading the prophecies in Ezekiel is one thing, reading those in Daniel is another. They may overlap, but they do not cancel each other. And there is nothing in Ezekiel that cancels the final "one week" (7 years) in Dan.9:27, except those on false doctrine who try to persuade others to disregard God's Word as written.

[color=#0000FF#]They prophecies in Daniel 9 do have specific events attached to them. Unfortunatly, you have yet to give me the Biblical foundation for the Bible splitting Daniel's 69th and 70th week. I want that Biblical foundation. I have repeatedly asked this question. Where is it written, that a DEFINITE time prophecy is all of a sudden INDEFINITE. Do not call it a doctrine of man because I'm asking you questions that warrant answering. If your information is correct, you bear the burden of proof. I want a "Thus saith the Lord". Show me, where God's definite time prophecy, actually means it's an indefinite time. Show me were the Bible commands a split in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Give me the Biblical foundation for that. If you cannot, then you have a problem. And please don't take out of context quotes to prove your point. I'll know, because I'll look it up. Give me the proof.[/color]

Sorry Vet - Didn't see your most Recent Post! Generating a Response Now!

tgwprophet · Nov 4, 2012

How is 70 weeks of years being split when 69 transpires and the 70th week is Tribulation, that meaning the 70 weeks of years culminates with the last 7 weeks of years as Tribulation and the first 69 being the time of Revelation?

veteran · Nov 4, 2012

Raeneske said:
[color=#0000FF#]They prophecies in Daniel 9 do have specific events attached to them. Unfortunatly, you have yet to give me the Biblical foundation for the Bible splitting Daniel's 69th and 70th week. I want that Biblical foundation. I have repeatedly asked this question. Where is it written, that a DEFINITE time prophecy is all of a sudden INDEFINITE. Do not call it a doctrine of man because I'm asking you questions that warrant answering. If your information is correct, you bear the burden of proof. I want a "Thus saith the Lord". Show me, where God's definite time prophecy, actually means it's an indefinite time. Show me were the Bible commands a split in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Give me the Biblical foundation for that. If you cannot, then you have a problem. And please don't take out of context quotes to prove your point. I'll know, because I'll look it up. Give me the proof.[/color]

Sorry Vet - Didn't see your most Recent Post! Generating a Response Now!

The matter got started on the Two Witnesses 2 + 2 thread. You were there, so I don't see what your problem is. Further, I presented my chart on this thread's very first post.

And by the way, there's no such thing as an "indefinite" prophecy EXCEPT the future establishing of God's Kingdom to come under Christ and the destruction of the wicked.

And I have not received a response from you regarding my challenge to you about the Daniel 9:27 verse either.

terry said:
How is 70 weeks of years being split when 69 transpires and the 70th week is Tribulation, that meaning the 70 weeks of years culminates with the last 7 weeks of years as Tribulation and the first 69 being the time of Revelation?

What?

Daniel 9:25-26 defines specific events with the first 'seven sevens' and then specific events for the sixty two sevens.

Then Daniel 9:27 defines specific events with the final 'seven'.

So how can you try to apply the 69 sevens to the time period of Revelation, which is for the time of the end of this world just prior to Christ's second coming?

Raeneske · Nov 4, 2012

veteran said:
Again, that's only opinion without anything else to back it up.

The early Church fathers and I disagree with you. The subject of the coming Antichrist is not one belonging only to what Apostle John wrote. It is the same matter that Christ forewarned of about a coming 'pseudo-Christ' in connection with the "abomination of desolation" event of the Book of Daniel. And it is further expounded upon by Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 and 2 Cor.11, and more by Christ through John in Revelation 12 & 13.

The subject of mourning in Zech.12 is the same subject of Rev.1:7...

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

"shall wail" = Greek 'kopto', Strong's no. 2875, 'to chop; to beat the breast in grief'

Did Christ Jesus return in 70 A.D.? NO!!!

The error in you logic is that those who will wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them in shame is for a specific event period, the time of Christ's literal appearance back on this earth at His second coming. That is... the subject of the 'blessed are the barren' metaphor, i.e., the time of shame for the rebellious of God's people, and the time when His elect will no more be persecuted. And that mountains and hills 'Fall on us' event is recorded at the end of Rev.6 on the 6th Seal event (the 6th Seal contains 7th trumpet and 7th Vial events).

Well, you force to me say it now. You obviously don't understand the difference with what those like Darby, Scofield, Lindsay, LaHaye, etc. taught! If you HAD known the difference, then you would have been able to recognize how my chart does NOT agree with them. Thus that means YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH AND YOU BEAR FALSE WITNESS, AND NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!

Let's do a little test then... since you are directly challenging the Daniel 9:27 clauses as not being about any 7 year period...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, ... .
(KJV)

Explain each clause in that:

1. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."
2. "... and in the midst of the week..."
3. "... he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."
4. "... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..."

Thankyou for asking. I would be happy to point this out - though often ignored. (Also, I just now saw your new post, for some reason, my notifications did not take me to the recent post.)

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:24-27 KJV)

70 prophetic weeks, being 490 literal years were given to Israel to finish sinning, and accept the Messiah, and rebuild Jerusalem.

We know that after 69 weeks, the Messiah shall be cut off. To be after 69 weeks, is to be in the 70th week. In the 70th week of Daniel the Messiah shall be cut off. But he shall not be cut off for Himself.

We know this means, that Jesus would die, but not for himself. The language is prophetic in nature, but we can grasp that understanding. And then we know that after that, the people of the prince shall come and destroy the city. Then the next verse goes onto to talk about the Messiah again, and then the city again. This he is Jesus Christ. He confirmed the covenant with many Israelites for one prophetic week. From His baptism, all the way up to Steven's death. Those were 7 years. In the midst of that however, Jesus died. In 27 AD he was baptized, and in 30 AD he was crucified. In 34 AD, Stephen was stoned, and Israel's time was over. Jesus caused all the sacrifice and oblations to cease. At the very point of His death, all animal sacrifices became absolutely worthless. Did they "literally cease"? No, it's prophetic language. It ceased to matter anymore, it was of absolutely no importance once Jesus died. He represented every sacrifice. And for the overspreading of abominations, He shall make it desolate. What shall be desolate? The city, for their abominations.

Ezekial 6 is one of the many examples of God desolating Israel, for their abominations:

And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars. In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the Lord. Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries. And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations. And they shall know that I am the Lord, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them. Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence. He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them. Then shall ye know that I am the Lord, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols. So will I stretch out my hand upon them, and make the land desolate, yea, more desolate than the wilderness toward Diblath, in all their habitations: and they shall know that I am the Lord. (Ezekiel 6:3-14 KJV)

No, Ezekial 6 is not the definition of Daniel 9. It is only an example. For rejecting the Messiah, crucifying Him, and continuing in their forms of religion, instead of the actual religion of Judaism, that pointed to Christ, they had an overspreading of abominations. For all that, and for rejecting Jesus, they were to be made desolate.

Also, i just saw your post about "indefinite". What I mean by that is, taking the definite time and making it not the definitie time God said. Example: Changing 1260 prophetic days in 9321 prophetic days. God's Word does not say that. It says 1260. Trying to make it more just doesn't make sense. Oh, and then saying the last 30 "days" of the 1260 days didn't happen yet. There's a split, and it is supposed to happen in the future.

terry said:
How is 70 weeks of years being split when 69 transpires and the 70th week is Tribulation, that meaning the 70 weeks of years culminates with the last 7 weeks of years as Tribulation and the first 69 being the time of Revelation?

Hey Terry,

I'm glad you asked that. See, the 7 year Tribulation comes from the end of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. The problem lies here, where in the Bible does it give an okay to slash the 70 prophetic weeks? 69 weeks of Daniel have already happened. Wouldn't the 70th week logically follow? It wouldn't be the 70th week if it didn't. It'd be much more than that. When you count prophecy in the Bible, does anyone hack away at 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 2300 days, or 70 years? Does anyone try to generate a split? No. Why? Because these are DEFINITE time prophecies. It's the same with Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. It's 490 years literal years. Why are people trying to hack away at it? It's that simple question that warrants an answer. But, there is no answer for it. Instead, people post their houses (built up propheies), but the problem is, it's built upon a sandy foundation. The prophecy has no root to it. It's made up. Almost no, and i quote, "Protestant believed in a 7 year trib until Scoffields (sp?) references". It is made up. It is just something handed down to Protestants that we accept, without examining the very foundation of such a prophcy. We build prophecies all around it, but cannot even back up the foundation. Unfortunatly, it doesn't matter how well of a chart you put together, if there is no foundation, it will not stand.

veteran · Nov 4, 2012

Raeneske said:
Thankyou for asking. I would be happy to point this out - though often ignored. (Also, I just now saw your new post, for some reason, my notifications did not take me to the recent post.)

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:24-27 KJV)

70 prophetic weeks, being 490 literal years were given to Israel to finish sinning, and accept the Messiah, and rebuild Jerusalem.

I didn't ask you about a treatise on the whole 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:23-27. I asked you to define the specific clauses of Dan.9:27 and prove it is not speaking of a literal seven years period.

Your First Error: misinterpreting several of the events in the Dan.9:24 verse --

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(KJV)

70 weeks upon whom? - "thy people and upon thy holy city". That means Jerusalem, and God's people in Jerusalem and also the scattered majority of God's people elsewhere in the nations, INCLUDING the ten tribes, AND even Christ's Church (since many, many Christians are literal Israelites today).

To finish... what event? "to finish the transgression". What transgression? Can you say "abomination that maketh desolate" from Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11? That has YET to happen today. It is about an idol abomination setup in a temple in Jerusalem for the specific time period Christ taught in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, the time of the last generation of this world just prior to Christ's return. That's the "abomination of desolation" event Christ warned of in Matt.24:15. The same... event Apostle Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and the same event of Revelation 13:11 forward with the dragon's working. NONE of that has occurred yet today.

In 70 A.D. the 2nd temple burned down BEFORE any abomination idol could be setup in it. The Romans did not set fire to that temple, it started inside (per the Jewish historian Josephus). So the "abomination of desolation" Christ mentioned did NOT take place in 70 A.D. Jerusalem. I'll bet those you've been listening to have tried to tell you it did happen then. They are telling lies.

In 165-170 B.C., one named Antiochus IV set the blueprint for the coming "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem's near future when the antichrist-false messiah comes in our times. Antiochus took Jerusalem, sacrificed swine upon the altar inside the 2nd temple, spread its broth around inside the temple, and then setup an idol to Zeus in the temple, and demanded all in Judea to worship it. However... Christ warned about the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel long AFTER... Antiochus had already done that! What did He show us by that?

He showed us that Antiochus did NOT fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of the Book of Daniel! It meant to LOOK FOR ANOTHER. It didn't happen in 70 A.D. with the Romans either, and since the time of the Roman army destroying Jerusalem and the 2nd temple, NO Israelite temple has even been standing in Jerusalem! Christ hasn't returned yet either. Because of all this, we MUST look to our future for its fulfillment. And today there exists orthodox Jews in Jerusalem preparing to build another... temple! That wasn't even possible until 1948 when the state of Israel became a nation again there.

The next parts of Dan.9:24... "to make an end of sins" -- for whom and also where? Daniel's people and Jerusalem ("thy holy city"). Does that mean orthodox unbelieving Jews too? YOU BET! Is Christ covering the sins of those unbelieving Jews in Israel today? Absolutely not! The majority of the Jews there still HATE Jesus of Nazareth! How could you even MISS that that's also upon Jerusalem per that Dan.9:24 verse?

"and to make reconcilliation for iniquity" - again, is that for orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem? NO! But it's to APPLY to Jerusalem also PER the prophecy! You CANNOT just arbitrarily assign that. You MUST include Daniel's people and "thy holy city" Jerusalem in that!

"and to bring in everlasting righteousness" - to whom and where? To the small group of Christian believers in today's Jerusalem, and the larger groups of Christians outside Jerusalem? No... that won't work. It's got to be upon whom again per that Dan.9:24 verse? Upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem! Tell me now, has "everlasting righteousness" really come upon the unbelieving Jews and Jerusalem today? Absolutely not, for the majority of them there STILL refuse Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

"and to seal up the vision and prophecy" - to whom and where again? Upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. To believe that has already happened today, you would have believe that Christ Jesus has already returned to Jerusalem today, which is where He returns per God's Word! Not sure if I could even properly define the amount of confusion and deception you'd be on if you believed that already happened.

"and to anoint the most Holy" - where's that to happen? In Jerusalem on earth! When? At Christ's second coming, for at Christ's return is WHEN He comes to defeat the false one coming to Jerusalem first, like Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2. That's about Christ's future Milennium sanctuary, the one of Ezekiel 40 forward. It has NEVER happened yet to this day.

(Line upon line, precept upon precept folks, just like God said. Do it and you'll be on His SOLID Foundation, and those on a false foundation will be revealed.)

Flow of Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy

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