Flow of Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy

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Raeneske

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I didn't ask you about a treatise on the whole 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:23-27. I asked you to define the specific clauses of Dan.9:27 and prove it is not speaking of a literal seven years period.

Your First Error: misinterpreting several of the events in the Dan.9:24 verse --

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(KJV)

70 weeks upon whom? - "thy people and upon thy holy city". That means Jerusalem, and God's people in Jerusalem and also the scattered majority of God's people elsewhere in the nations, INCLUDING the ten tribes, AND even Christ's Church (since many, many Christians are literal Israelites today).

To finish... what event? "to finish the transgression". What transgression? Can you say "abomination that maketh desolate" from Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11? That has YET to happen today. It is about an idol abomination setup in a temple in Jerusalem for the specific time period Christ taught in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, the time of the last generation of this world just prior to Christ's return. That's the "abomination of desolation" event Christ warned of in Matt.24:15. The same... event Apostle Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and the same event of Revelation 13:11 forward with the dragon's working. NONE of that has occurred yet today.

In 70 A.D. the 2nd temple burned down BEFORE any abomination idol could be setup in it. The Romans did not set fire to that temple, it started inside (per the Jewish historian Josephus). So the "abomination of desolation" Christ mentioned did NOT take place in 70 A.D. Jerusalem. I'll bet those you've been listening to have tried to tell you it did happen then. They are telling lies.

In 165-170 B.C., one named Antiochus IV set the blueprint for the coming "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem's near future when the antichrist-false messiah comes in our times. Antiochus took Jerusalem, sacrificed swine upon the altar inside the 2nd temple, spread its broth around inside the temple, and then setup an idol to Zeus in the temple, and demanded all in Judea to worship it. However... Christ warned about the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel long AFTER... Antiochus had already done that! What did He show us by that?

He showed us that Antiochus did NOT fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of the Book of Daniel! It meant to LOOK FOR ANOTHER. It didn't happen in 70 A.D. with the Romans either, and since the time of the Roman army destroying Jerusalem and the 2nd temple, NO Israelite temple has even been standing in Jerusalem! Christ hasn't returned yet either. Because of all this, we MUST look to our future for its fulfillment. And today there exists orthodox Jews in Jerusalem preparing to build another... temple! That wasn't even possible until 1948 when the state of Israel became a nation again there.

The next parts of Dan.9:24... "to make an end of sins" -- for whom and also where? Daniel's people and Jerusalem ("thy holy city"). Does that mean orthodox unbelieving Jews too? YOU BET! Is Christ covering the sins of those unbelieving Jews in Israel today? Absolutely not! The majority of the Jews there still HATE Jesus of Nazareth! How could you even MISS that that's also upon Jerusalem per that Dan.9:24 verse?

"and to make reconcilliation for iniquity" - again, is that for orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem? NO! But it's to APPLY to Jerusalem also PER the prophecy! You CANNOT just arbitrarily assign that. You MUST include Daniel's people and "thy holy city" Jerusalem in that!

"and to bring in everlasting righteousness" - to whom and where? To the small group of Christian believers in today's Jerusalem, and the larger groups of Christians outside Jerusalem? No... that won't work. It's got to be upon whom again per that Dan.9:24 verse? Upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem! Tell me now, has "everlasting righteousness" really come upon the unbelieving Jews and Jerusalem today? Absolutely not, for the majority of them there STILL refuse Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

"and to seal up the vision and prophecy" - to whom and where again? Upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. To believe that has already happened today, you would have believe that Christ Jesus has already returned to Jerusalem today, which is where He returns per God's Word! Not sure if I could even properly define the amount of confusion and deception you'd be on if you believed that already happened.

"and to anoint the most Holy" - where's that to happen? In Jerusalem on earth! When? At Christ's second coming, for at Christ's return is WHEN He comes to defeat the false one coming to Jerusalem first, like Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2. That's about Christ's future Milennium sanctuary, the one of Ezekiel 40 forward. It has NEVER happened yet to this day.

(Line upon line, precept upon precept folks, just like God said. Do it and you'll be on His SOLID Foundation, and those on a false foundation will be revealed.)

I purposely backtracked because it all goes together. It was to make sure nothing was out of context.

Okay, here's the problem. 70 weeks, being 490 literal years were left for Israel. Please, tell me how 490 years means 483 years and and after near 2000 years, 7 more years later. The Burden of proof lies upon you.

To finish the transgression, to make an end for sins, and make reconciliation for their sins, and bring in everlasting righteousness. All that is speaking of the same thing. During this time, Israel was just carried away captive into Babylon 70 years ago. God was giving them their final time prophecy warning. They had 490 years to "finish transgressing", which means to stop sinning. They were to make reconciiliation for their sins, and which means repent and turn their hearts back to the Lord. To bring in everlasting righteousness is just that, to walk in complete righteousness that the Lord was going to give them, after they finished sinning. They had 490 years left to do this. Did they do it? No! Their time has been expired, it's game over for them as a nation.

I see what the problem is. Because Israel has not yet turned to God, people believe their time is not yet up. If I tell you you hae 5 minutes to get to work, and you don't go within that time frame, does this mean I extended your time frame? Is it safe for everyone to assume, that when I said 5 minutes left, I gave you 4 minutes in the past, but gave you 1 minute some time in the far future?
No, after 5 minutes your time is up!

To annoint the Most Holy refers to Jesus Christ, as I have said in previous statements. Annoint the most Holy - like the most High - not to annoint the most holy place. That is where another error creeps in. The most Holy is Jesus. And look at the word, Messiah. It literally means, the annointed one. That part of the prophecy is referring to Jesus Christ.


For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isaiah 29:10-12 KJV)

Unfortunatly, just as said in Isaiah, the vision is sealed up upon Israel. They cannot understand it. God has given them up to darkness. All the visions are sealed upon Israel, they will not have an understanding unless they seek the Lord Jesus Christ. This is also confirmed that they have been blinded for their rebelliousness in the New Testament.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 KJV)

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. (2 Corinthians 3:13-15 KJV)
 

veteran

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We know that after 69 weeks, the Messiah shall be cut off. To be after 69 weeks, is to be in the 70th week. In the 70th week of Daniel the Messiah shall be cut off. But he shall not be cut off for Himself.

Your 2nd Error:
The Dan.9:25-26 prophecy does not say ANYTHING about the final 70th week, nor any of its events. ONLY the Dan.9:27 verse does.

Christ was cut off at the end of the 69th week, His crucifixon ended the 69th week, not into the 70th week.

After the end of that 69th week, the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple burned down. Can you COUNT? How many years was that between the time of Christ's crucifixion (33 A.D) and the time when the Roman army came? (70 A.D.) Where's the 70th week, a literal 7 year period, with its events falling within any that? They do not. You are not thinking for yourself, but just following Ellen White's TRADITIONS BY ROTE.


Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The 69th week was completed by Christ's crucifixion. Then the "people" of this other prince (military commander) would come and destroy Jerusalem and the temple, which was the pagan Romans under general Titus in 70 A.D. From the time of Christ's crucifixion in 33 A.D to 70 A.D. was how many years? 37 years!! So it's ignorant to even TRY to place the events of Daniel's "one week" anywhere within that period! Don't you understand that this event of Dan.9:26 about the Roman's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was 37 YEARS AFTER CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION?

For what Ellen White said to be true, the final 70th week would have HAD to happen PRIOR to the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. HUGE PROBLEM, since Christ was cut off after the 69th week to complete those 69 weeks. Per her idea, these events of Dan.9:26 should not even be mentioned... until after the Dan.9:27 verse about the final "one week" (70th). But thankfully, there's enough distinguishing events in the 27th verse to prove it's not about the time of Christ's Ministry and crucifixion.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Who's this "he"? Have to pick up the subject from the previous verse about that 'prince' and the people that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. That was Titus, as the word "prince" there in the Hebrew can also mean a military commander. Titus and those Romans represented PAGAN Romans, not Christianized Romans! So that "he" represents the office of a PAGAN leader, not Christ's people.


Daniel was given MORE information about that "he" that's to come, and what he is to do...

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)

That "league" that "vile person" makes is the confirming of a covenant for 7 years per the Dan.9:27 verse. If you try to say that "vile person" is Christ Jesus, then I say you are nuts!

Other abominable works that "vile person" is to do is FURTHER explained there in Daniel 11...

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

That is what the Daniel 9:27 verse is about, the false one who comes to make a "league" in Jerusalem, and then in the middle of the "one week" breaks the league and ends sacrifices in Jerusalem, and then places the idol abomination.


[quote]Ezekial 6 is one of the many examples of God desolating Israel, for their abominations:....[/quote]

The Ezekiel 6 prophecy was given Ezekiel while in captivity to Babylon. He was a contemporary of Daniel. It was primarily about the removing of the ten tribes and the destructions upon Jerusalem by the king of Babylon, and later scattering of Judah through the countries. It happened long before the time of Christ's first coming.

I purposely backtracked because it all goes together. It was to make sure nothing was out of context.

Okay, here's the problem. 70 weeks, being 490 literal years were left for Israel. Please, tell me how 490 years means 483 years and and after near 2000 years, 7 more years later. The Burden of proof lies upon you.

Let's stop righ there. Since you propose this, the burden of proof is upon you.

You cannot --
1. establish that the "one week" of Dan.9:27 happened right after the 69th week with Christ's crucifixion. Ellen White's dating you're using are speculations only, NOT BIBLICAL PROOF.

2. you cannot account for the error her dating creates with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans as being after... the 70th week, since that destruction prophecy is given PRIOR to the 70th week events.

3. you cannot prove ANY covenant that Christ made for a 7 years period and then broke, not with ANYONE.

4. you cannot disprove the prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" idol in Daniel which Christ linked to the "great tribulation" time events per Matt.24 and Mark 13.

5. you cannot establish Biblically Ellen White's speculation about 7 years from Christ to the stoning of Stephen in Acts. Once again, she was speculating on her own with that.




To finish the transgression, to make an end for sins, and make reconciliation for their sins, and bring in everlasting righteousness. All that is speaking of the same thing. During this time, Israel was just carried away captive into Babylon 70 years ago. God was giving them their final time prophecy warning. They had 490 years to "finish transgressing", which means to stop sinning. They were to make reconciiliation for their sins, and which means repent and turn their hearts back to the Lord. To bring in everlasting righteousness is just that, to walk in complete righteousness that the Lord was going to give them, after they finished sinning. They had 490 years left to do this. Did they do it? No! Their time has been expired, it's game over for them as a nation.

Oh, I well recognize that the students of Ellen White are FORCED to make up something for those Dan.9:24 events in order to 'match' her prophecy. It won't match up though. And the reason is simple. God gave other prophecy about abominations in Jerusalem all the way to the end on the "day of the Lord". And only a small remnant of the three-tribed "house of Judah" even returned... to rebuild Jerusalem per Ezra 2. The majority of the captives to Babylon were further... scattered through the nations per God's promise in Deut.28 if they fell to false worship against Him. So White's timing of reconcillation for unbelieving Jew's sins was a joke, sorry to say!

But will they one day be reconcilled to God? YES! Apostle Paul even says so in Romans 11. So does Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, and even the Book of Daniel elsewhere, YES DANIEL TOO! Well, just when will that be? When CHRIST JESUS RETURNS! Has Jesus returned yet today? Nope! That's why the ultimate end of those things in Dan.9:24 are FOR... the future when Jesus returns!

I see what the problem is. Because Israel has not yet turned to God, people believe their time is not yet up. If I tell you you hae 5 minutes to get to work, and you don't go within that time frame, does this mean I extended your time frame? Is it safe for everyone to assume, that when I said 5 minutes left, I gave you 4 minutes in the past, but gave you 1 minute some time in the far future?
No, after 5 minutes your time is up!

Your attempt at analogy there just doesn't make sense at all. Like Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about the unbelievers of Israel, IF they remain in unbelief, they shall be cut off. Pretty simple. Lot of Bible prophecy to go yet in our days, and a lot of it is in the Book of Daniel about the very end of this present world. I wonder what you will do when the coming pseudo-Christ appears in time? Seems like right now you're are prepared to bow to him in place of Jesus, thinking he will be our Lord Jesus Christ. If you refuse to heed His warnings about that, then you have denied help for that future time. I'd rather that event not happen to you if you accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Saviour, The Christ.



To annoint the Most Holy refers to Jesus Christ, as I have said in previous statements.

No, it does not mean that, for others were anointed before Christ Jesus came, as I have also said before in previous statements. The anointing of the most Holy per Dan.9:24 is about the cleansing of the sactuary idea of Dan.8:13-14. It is associated with the idea of a sanctuary.



Unfortunatly, just as said in Isaiah, the vision is sealed up upon Israel. They cannot understand it. God has given them up to darkness. All the visions are sealed upon Israel, they will not have an understanding unless they seek the Lord Jesus Christ. This is also confirmed that they have been blinded for their rebelliousness in the New Testament.

Nah..., the vision given Daniel was not meant for him to understand in his days, not so for the end today with our times. It's laid bare now, easy to understand. But it was not laid bare in Ellen White's days either, so you're moving BACKWARDS in your understanding of it, and not for the times we live in today.

Those of the Jews that have accepted Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ aren't supposed to still be under the vail of confusion. But even many of those of my Christian brethren are, and I mean many believing Jews today too! And this was prophecy for the end too! Seems you've missed it.
 

Raeneske

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Your 2nd Error:
The Dan.9:25-26 prophecy does not say ANYTHING about the final 70th week, nor any of its events. ONLY the Dan.9:27 verse does.

Christ was cut off at the end of the 69th week, His crucifixon ended the 69th week, not into the 70th week.

After the end of that 69th week, the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple burned down. Can you COUNT? How many years was that between the time of Christ's crucifixion (33 A.D) and the time when the Roman army came? (70 A.D.) Where's the 70th week, a literal 7 year period, with its events falling within any that? They do not. You are not thinking for yourself, but just following Ellen White's TRADITIONS BY ROTE.


Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The 69th week was completed by Christ's crucifixion. Then the "people" of this other prince (military commander) would come and destroy Jerusalem and the temple, which was the pagan Romans under general Titus in 70 A.D. From the time of Christ's crucifixion in 33 A.D to 70 A.D. was how many years? 37 years!! So it's ignorant to even TRY to place the events of Daniel's "one week" anywhere within that period! Don't you understand that this event of Dan.9:26 about the Roman's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was 37 YEARS AFTER CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION?

For what Ellen White said to be true, the final 70th week would have HAD to happen PRIOR to the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. HUGE PROBLEM, since Christ was cut off after the 69th week to complete those 69 weeks. Per her idea, these events of Dan.9:26 should not even be mentioned... until after the Dan.9:27 verse about the final "one week" (70th). But thankfully, there's enough distinguishing events in the 27th verse to prove it's not about the time of Christ's Ministry and crucifixion.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Who's this "he"? Have to pick up the subject from the previous verse about that 'prince' and the people that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. That was Titus, as the word "prince" there in the Hebrew can also mean a military commander. Titus and those Romans represented PAGAN Romans, not Christianized Romans! So that "he" represents the office of a PAGAN leader, not Christ's people.


Daniel was given MORE information about that "he" that's to come, and what he is to do...

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)

That "league" that "vile person" makes is the confirming of a covenant for 7 years per the Dan.9:27 verse. If you try to say that "vile person" is Christ Jesus, then I say you are nuts!

Other abominable works that "vile person" is to do is FURTHER explained there in Daniel 11...

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

That is what the Daniel 9:27 verse is about, the false one who comes to make a "league" in Jerusalem, and then in the middle of the "one week" breaks the league and ends sacrifices in Jerusalem, and then places the idol abomination.




The Ezekiel 6 prophecy was given Ezekiel while in captivity to Babylon. He was a contemporary of Daniel. It was primarily about the removing of the ten tribes and the destructions upon Jerusalem by the king of Babylon, and later scattering of Judah through the countries. It happened long before the time of Christ's first coming.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:25, 26 KJV)

So, what you're telling me, is that after the 69th week, the 70th week doesn't come? Because according to scripture, the Messiah was to be cut off AFTER the 69th week. That would then be the 70th week.

Yes, I know how to count. What I find truly amazing, is that after being accused of not being able to count, I am then told the 70th week of Daniel is in the future, though, the 69 weeks are in the past. I think there is an issue here with counting, and it would not be on this side. The burden lies upon you to show me where the Bible splits up Daniel's 69th and 70th week, to actually mean 69 weeks here, and one week in the future.

As for the prophetic language in the destruction of Jerusalem, you are misuderstanding the syntax of the verse. After the Messiah was to cut off in the 70th week, afterwards the people of the Prince would come and destroy the city. Is it possible for this to happen DURING the 70 prophetic weeks? No. That would also make God a liar, infringing upon the time given to Israel. He set it up, they had 490 years left to get right. As prophecied, they not get right, and the people of "the prince" came and destroyed Jerusalem.

Then Daniel 9:27 is speaking of Jesus once again. Jesus was to be "cut off" after the 69th week. So, during the 70th week he was to be cut off? When was he cut off in the 70th week? After 3.5 years, meaning, or "in the midst of the week". That's how long Jesus's ministry was. How do we know that's also referring to Jesus? "Sacrifice and oblation to cease". This, dear Veteran, is why it says in the midst of the week he caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. Jesus did cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, please show me in the Christian text, where it is something we are supposed to do. Obviously, we know the sacrifices are done, we understand that.
 

tgwprophet

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The 70 weeks begin with Revelation and end at Armageddon. Thus the 69 weeks transpires prior to Tribulation;. pretty simple. Certainly what you are describing in your understanding could apply where you think it applies as well. Have you not found scriptures describing an event then showing that nearly same or same description put to use in another instance?


You wrote: " So, what you're telling me, is that after the 69th week, the 70th week doesn't come? Because according to scripture, the Messiah was to be cut off AFTER the 69th week. That would then be the 70th week. "

So once again history repeats itself and you are dismayed?
 

Raeneske

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The 70 weeks begin with Revelation and end at Armageddon. Thus the 69 weeks transpires prior to Tribulation;. pretty simple. Certainly what you are describing in your understanding could apply where you think it applies as well. Have you not found scriptures describing an event then showing that nearly same or same description put to use in another instance?


You wrote: " So, what you're telling me, is that after the 69th week, the 70th week doesn't come? Because according to scripture, the Messiah was to be cut off AFTER the 69th week. That would then be the 70th week. "

So once again history repeats itself and you are dismayed?

Terry, question. How is it possible for the 70 weeks prophecy, to begin with Revelation? I'm not quite understanding what you mean by that?
 

tgwprophet

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A long time ago I considered this thing... the 70 weeks. I understood the connection during both times in which Jesus would be present... when he was born as the Lamb of God and the second time when he returns as the Lion of God... it is that simple. Allow me to add this.. the first time, when Jesus came as the Lamb of God... he was not recognized ( I know that is a generalization ) AND the second time, when he comes as the Lion of God, he will not be denied ( another geeneralization too ). Know this... God's Word is a Living Word. When you allow these both to co-habitate, any arguement is moot. thanks for asking. In this understanding, I found no arguement within myself.
 

Raeneske

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A long time ago I considered this thing... the 70 weeks. I understood the connection during both times in which Jesus would be present... when he was born as the Lamb of God and the second time when he returns as the Lion of God... it is that simple. Allow me to add this.. the first time, when Jesus came as the Lamb of God... he was not recognized ( I know that is a generalization ) AND the second time, when he comes as the Lion of God, he will not be denied ( another geeneralization too ). Know this... God's Word is a Living Word. When you allow these both to co-habitate, any arguement is moot. thanks for asking. In this understanding, I found no arguement within myself.

Are you stating that, the 70 weeks prophecy is supposed to happen again?
 

tgwprophet

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The 70 weeks...yes the events in them..no..they are different. Notice I stated frist time as the Lamb = denied... the second time as the Lion = cannot be denied. Notice I stated this is my view point, and with it I have no dis-agreement within my self.
 

Raeneske

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The 70 weeks...yes the events in them..no..they are different. Notice I stated frist time as the Lamb = denied... the second time as the Lion = cannot be denied. Notice I stated this is my view point, and with it I have no dis-agreement within my self.

So, this is how you see it, and it doesn't cause a disagreement within yourself, so you have no problem with it?

Okay dear one, so let's test that.

Where in the Bible does it give an assertion, or an inkling that the 70 weeks are to happen again near the end times?
 

tgwprophet

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proof? .an inkling? ...Have you not been reading the posts on its validation by Veteran? He is giving much more than an inkling.
He could ask me the same question and I could give him the same answer.just by exchanging his name for yours.
You don't see the validity of the dual-purpose answer? lol
Where in Scripture does it say prophecies concerning the 70 weeks can ONLY be attributed to one or the other?

I will give you a hint.... nowhere Both claims have validity in one aspect or another And by both being correct, it sure does assist in obscuring the understanding of endtime prophecy. Consider the element of dual-purpose prophecy allowing endtime prophecy to be more difficult to readily understand. If endtime prophecy was written as "stereo instructions" then the one true God wouid not be difficult to discover. If finding God was as easy as stereo instructions then faith would not exist, and therefore we would not have free will either. And so, the complexcities in understanding has a Holy purpose.

Prophecy is proof of God. And could have been written in a manner even Godless people could understand, but at what cost?
Surely God could have given prophecy to the prophets in endtime language that understanding prophecy was as easy as stereo instructions.
It bothers me that I even have to explain what I wrote in the prior post, for it was concise.
If anyone cannot get over this hurdle, how can anyone get over the next?

People will not recognize the truth when it is given just as they will not recognize the two witnesses when they have testified and are are dead.

Rae wrote: " When you count prophecy in the Bible, does anyone hack away at 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 2300 days, or 70 years? Does anyone try to generate a split? No. Why? Because these are DEFINITE time prophecies. "

Actually they do.... Some consider Tribulation as being less the 7 years. Others hack at the time of the Abomination of Desolation, Still others try to put the stopping of the Daily Sacrifice at the exact same time as the Abomination of Desolation. Others claim the time of Tribulation will be shortened, meaning these time increments are not valid and we cannot know how short Tribulation is to be. And most of these ideas have been posted in the forum, as well as in a mass mess of other forums. My personal contention is the time increments are exact and because Tribulation is only 7 years.... it has been shortened... think what it would be like if Tribulation took an entire generation.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
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0
Southeast USA
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:25, 26 KJV)

So, what you're telling me, is that after the 69th week, the 70th week doesn't come? Because according to scripture, the Messiah was to be cut off AFTER the 69th week. That would then be the 70th week.

Simple answer to that is this question; did any of the Dan.9:27 events happen right after Christ's crucifixion, and prior to the Romans destroying Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? No, the Dan.9.27 events did not occur then, and still have not today. THAT is the qualifier of the prophecy, the EVENTS given Daniel, not Ellen White's events she claimed from God by her own visions.

That's why someone saying it don't make sense that the final 70th week doesn't follow in time immediately after the 69th week is NOT the qualifier of that prophecy, for that is to disregard what the actual events of Dan.9:27 are about. And once again, no one can simply throw away all the Daniel Scripture links about that abomination that maketh desolate event given in that verse.

Christ Jesus attached the time of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel 8:13, 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11 specifically with the endtime events of the end of days, i.e., the great tribulation timing (Matt.24; Mark 13). And then His Olivet discourse given in those chapters He attached with the subject of the Seals of Revelation 6 (which links to the trumpets and vials in His Revelation also). So we are not just talking about 4 little verses of Daniel 9:24-27 regarding this matter.

The same things done through her is what also happened to those associated with Margaret MacDonald in 1830's Britain. She was literally sick in her bed hallucinating, and claimed to see and hear things about the events of the end and about Christ's second coming. Those religious leaders around her bed then took what she said and ran with it, supplanting the written events in God's Word with an idea that was never written in The Bible, i.e., the Pre-Tribulational Secret Rapture theory, a theory that Christ comes to rapture His Church out prior to the great tribulation He mentioned. Prior to that time of the 1830's The Church had traditionally held for 1800 years to Holy Writ about Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church 'after'... the tribulation He taught (per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).



Yes, I know how to count. What I find truly amazing, is that after being accused of not being able to count, I am then told the 70th week of Daniel is in the future, though, the 69 weeks are in the past. I think there is an issue here with counting, and it would not be on this side. The burden lies upon you to show me where the Bible splits up Daniel's 69th and 70th week, to actually mean 69 weeks here, and one week in the future.

Your idea (actually Ellen Whtie's idea and those associated with her beginnings) that the 70th final week HAS to immediately follow the 69th week is supposition only. If we were talking about widgets running past on an assembly line, etc., then that idea would apply. But we're talking about the events given Daniel in God's Holy Writ, NOT things of mammon. There are several timeline gaps given in God's Holy Writ, and the gap between the 69th and 70th week is simply one of them.

In Isaiah 61 there's a HUGE gap of time between the "To proclaim the acceptable year of The LORD" and the "day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" phrases in the SAME verse. The first phrase was about Christ's first coming to Jerusalem. The second and last phrase of that verse are about Christ's FUTURE second coming and the day of wrath upon His enemies. Christ directly revealed that gap too, per the Luke 4 chapter where He read everything PRIOR to the last two phrases of Isaiah 61:2, then closed The Book, and said the first parts were fulfilled right then at His first coming. Just with two verses next to each other in Zechariah 9:9-10 there is a huge gap of time, for it's about the same thing, Christ's first coming (history) and then His second coming (still future to us).

So how is it that you have not understood about prophetic timeline gaps in God's Holy Writ?


As for the prophetic language in the destruction of Jerusalem, you are misuderstanding the syntax of the verse. After the Messiah was to cut off in the 70th week, afterwards the people of the Prince would come and destroy the city. Is it possible for this to happen DURING the 70 prophetic weeks? No. That would also make God a liar, infringing upon the time given to Israel. He set it up, they had 490 years left to get right. As prophecied, they not get right, and the people of "the prince" came and destroyed Jerusalem.

Your simply 'drunken' with Ellen White's doctrines, and unable to grasp the timeline of how Daniel 9:24 flows all the way to the end of this present world. White's doctrines have already made God a liar, since her theory has to completely DENY the event of transgression with the placing of the abomination idol that maketh desolate by the "vile person", one of the MAJOR events prophesied in the Dan.9:24 & 27 verses, and in Dan.8:12-13, and in Dan.11:31, and in Dan.12:11.


Then Daniel 9:27 is speaking of Jesus once again.

NO it is not! The transgression of the abomination that maketh desolate is about an IDOL ABOMINATION. Christ directly pointed to it as a warning in relation to the temple in Jerusalem (per Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14). And He DIRECTLY referred to it within this Daniel prophecy your trying to destroy by heeding the false teachings of Ellen White and et al.

The Ezekiel 8 chapter gives a better description about that IDOL ABOMINATION ("abomination of desolation"), and how our Heavenly Father feels about it, and His people falling into false idol worship. It makes Him jealous like He said there. You ought to read it.

And just to make SURE those who 'stay' in God's Word as written for these last days would UNDERSTAND what that "abomination of desolation" is, He allowed Antiochus IV in 165-170 B.C. to setup an idol abomination inside the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, as a PATTERN for the one Daniel was shown that's to occur in our near future!

The good thing in your case, is that NOW at least you have been shown what the Dan.9:27 events regarding that abominatoin of desolation in Jerusalem is actually about, so that WHEN you see it happen in our near future, you will have NO excuse.

proof? .an inkling? ...Have you not been reading the posts on its validation by Veteran? He is giving much more than an inkling.
He could ask me the same question and I could give him the same answer.just by exchanging his name for yours.
You don't see the validity of the dual-purpose answer? lol
Where in Scripture does it say prophecies concerning the 70 weeks can ONLY be attributed to one or the other?

I will give you a hint.... nowhere Both claims have validity in one aspect or another And by both being correct, it sure does assist in obscuring the understanding of endtime prophecy. Consider the element of dual-purpose prophecy allowing endtime prophecy to be more difficult to readily understand. If endtime prophecy was written as "stereo instructions" then the one true God wouid not be difficult to discover. If finding God was as easy as stereo instructions then faith would not exist, and therefore we would not have free will either. And so, the complexcities in understanding has a Holy purpose.

Prophecy is proof of God. And could have been written in a manner even Godless people could understand, but at what cost?
Surely God could have given prophecy to the prophets in endtime language that understanding prophecy was as easy as stereo instructions.
It bothers me that I even have to explain what I wrote in the prior post, for it was concise.
If anyone cannot get over this hurdle, how can anyone get over the next?

People will not recognize the truth when it is given just as they will not recognize the two witnesses when they have testified and are are dead.

Rae wrote: " When you count prophecy in the Bible, does anyone hack away at 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 2300 days, or 70 years? Does anyone try to generate a split? No. Why? Because these are DEFINITE time prophecies. "

Actually they do.... Some consider Tribulation as being less the 7 years. Others hack at the time of the Abomination of Desolation, Still others try to put the stopping of the Daily Sacrifice at the exact same time as the Abomination of Desolation. Others claim the time of Tribulation will be shortened, meaning these time increments are not valid and we cannot know how short Tribulation is to be. And most of these ideas have been posted in the forum, as well as in a mass mess of other forums. My personal contention is the time increments are exact and because Tribulation is only 7 years.... it has been shortened... think what it would be like if Tribulation took an entire generation.


As for that reasoning, I sort of... grasp what you're saying, but only in the following aspect regarding the Book of Daniel...

The Book of Daniel has 'historical' events also that 'overlay' some events in the coming tribulation time of our near future to the end when Christ returns. But it does NOT change nor modify the events of the 70 weeks prophecy that Daniel was given. The final "one week" events of Dan.9:27 (and their associated Daniel Scripture elsewhere) is STILL our pattern for the end today, and has things within them that have NEVER happened yet in history.

With that said, some of the historical parts in Daniel do.... serve as "ensamples" for the future tribulation time. Daniel was tested for 10 days (Dan.1). Christ revealed some of those of the Church of Smyrna would suffer tribulation in prison 10 days. Daniel was to be nourished for 3 years prior to being delivered up before the king of Babylon (Dan.1). The abomination idol that Nebuchadnezzar made for all to bow in worship in that time is the main pattern for the 'image of the beast' Christ showed John at the end of Revelation 13. The king of Babylon tried to exalt himself above GOD, which is what the coming Antichrist is also to do at the end of this world. In Isaiah 14, God gives a 'proverb' (parable) about the king of Babylon, and then associates him as an anti-type to Lucifer. In Revelation 17 forward, Christ uses the title of Babylon to describe the beast kingdom for the end under the coming false messiah.

So, there are historical parallels in Daniel with the Revelation events also. But the 70 weeks prophecy is still not completed yet today, and won't be until Christ Jesus returns at His second coming.
 

Raeneske

New Member
Sep 18, 2012
716
19
0
proof? .an inkling? ...Have you not been reading the posts on its validation by Veteran? He is giving much more than an inkling.
He could ask me the same question and I could give him the same answer.just by exchanging his name for yours.
You don't see the validity of the dual-purpose answer? lol
Where in Scripture does it say prophecies concerning the 70 weeks can ONLY be attributed to one or the other?

I will give you a hint.... nowhere Both claims have validity in one aspect or another And by both being correct, it sure does assist in obscuring the understanding of endtime prophecy. Consider the element of dual-purpose prophecy allowing endtime prophecy to be more difficult to readily understand. If endtime prophecy was written as "stereo instructions" then the one true God wouid not be difficult to discover. If finding God was as easy as stereo instructions then faith would not exist, and therefore we would not have free will either. And so, the complexcities in understanding has a Holy purpose.

Prophecy is proof of God. And could have been written in a manner even Godless people could understand, but at what cost?
Surely God could have given prophecy to the prophets in endtime language that understanding prophecy was as easy as stereo instructions.
It bothers me that I even have to explain what I wrote in the prior post, for it was concise.
If anyone cannot get over this hurdle, how can anyone get over the next?

People will not recognize the truth when it is given just as they will not recognize the two witnesses when they have testified and are are dead.

Rae wrote: " When you count prophecy in the Bible, does anyone hack away at 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 2300 days, or 70 years? Does anyone try to generate a split? No. Why? Because these are DEFINITE time prophecies. "

Actually they do.... Some consider Tribulation as being less the 7 years. Others hack at the time of the Abomination of Desolation, Still others try to put the stopping of the Daily Sacrifice at the exact same time as the Abomination of Desolation. Others claim the time of Tribulation will be shortened, meaning these time increments are not valid and we cannot know how short Tribulation is to be. And most of these ideas have been posted in the forum, as well as in a mass mess of other forums. My personal contention is the time increments are exact and because Tribulation is only 7 years.... it has been shortened... think what it would be like if Tribulation took an entire generation.

I have been reading Veteran's posts. Unfortunatly, the proof was not given to me. As I said, there is no foundation for this prophecy. That is the problem. If you could prove that Daniel's 70 weeks is split, by God's Word, then that would be wonderful. But no one can do it. It has been repeatedly asserted that "This did not happen!" That's not proof, that's an assertion. They are words flowing from your lips, but they do give any credibility to your belief. Show me the Biblical Foundation for it - Simple.

And you totally just proved my point. Some people do split up the time prophecies. Explain that to me. I cannot fathom how, a definite time, is okay for humans to toy with and split up. The book of Revelation was serious when it was talking about adding to or taking away. People should not be guessing like that, the Bible defines itself perfectly. I don't care if you have "alphabet soup" after your name, and if you're called a Doctor of Divinity. I don't care if you're a pastor, or my mother. If the information you're feeding me has no Biblical foundation, it's false, plain and simple! Where in the Bible does it tell you to split up the definite time prophecies? Where.... Okay, so, moving on...

I understand about a "dual purpose prophecy". I just want the foundation for such a thing. A sure foundation, is what i'm looking for. I want the Biblical Basis, so that you can provide me with scripture, to back up your claim. I want to know, is this something you think is true, or is this something the Word of God actually says.

Simple answer to that is this question; did any of the Dan.9:27 events happen right after Christ's crucifixion, and prior to the Romans destroying Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? No, the Dan.9.27 events did not occur then, and still have not today. THAT is the qualifier of the prophecy, the EVENTS given Daniel, not Ellen White's events she claimed from God by her own visions.

That's why someone saying it don't make sense that the final 70th week doesn't follow in time immediately after the 69th week is NOT the qualifier of that prophecy, for that is to disregard what the actual events of Dan.9:27 are about. And once again, no one can simply throw away all the Daniel Scripture links about that abomination that maketh desolate event given in that verse.

Christ Jesus attached the time of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel 8:13, 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11 specifically with the endtime events of the end of days, i.e., the great tribulation timing (Matt.24; Mark 13). And then His Olivet discourse given in those chapters He attached with the subject of the Seals of Revelation 6 (which links to the trumpets and vials in His Revelation also). So we are not just talking about 4 little verses of Daniel 9:24-27 regarding this matter.

The same things done through her is what also happened to those associated with Margaret MacDonald in 1830's Britain. She was literally sick in her bed hallucinating, and claimed to see and hear things about the events of the end and about Christ's second coming. Those religious leaders around her bed then took what she said and ran with it, supplanting the written events in God's Word with an idea that was never written in The Bible, i.e., the Pre-Tribulational Secret Rapture theory, a theory that Christ comes to rapture His Church out prior to the great tribulation He mentioned. Prior to that time of the 1830's The Church had traditionally held for 1800 years to Holy Writ about Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church 'after'... the tribulation He taught (per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).





Your idea (actually Ellen Whtie's idea and those associated with her beginnings) that the 70th final week HAS to immediately follow the 69th week is supposition only. If we were talking about widgets running past on an assembly line, etc., then that idea would apply. But we're talking about the events given Daniel in God's Holy Writ, NOT things of mammon. There are several timeline gaps given in God's Holy Writ, and the gap between the 69th and 70th week is simply one of them.

In Isaiah 61 there's a HUGE gap of time between the "To proclaim the acceptable year of The LORD" and the "day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" phrases in the SAME verse. The first phrase was about Christ's first coming to Jerusalem. The second and last phrase of that verse are about Christ's FUTURE second coming and the day of wrath upon His enemies. Christ directly revealed that gap too, per the Luke 4 chapter where He read everything PRIOR to the last two phrases of Isaiah 61:2, then closed The Book, and said the first parts were fulfilled right then at His first coming. Just with two verses next to each other in Zechariah 9:9-10 there is a huge gap of time, for it's about the same thing, Christ's first coming (history) and then His second coming (still future to us).

So how is it that you have not understood about prophetic timeline gaps in God's Holy Writ?




Your simply 'drunken' with Ellen White's doctrines, and unable to grasp the timeline of how Daniel 9:24 flows all the way to the end of this present world. White's doctrines have already made God a liar, since her theory has to completely DENY the event of transgression with the placing of the abomination idol that maketh desolate by the "vile person", one of the MAJOR events prophesied in the Dan.9:24 & 27 verses, and in Dan.8:12-13, and in Dan.11:31, and in Dan.12:11.




NO it is not! The transgression of the abomination that maketh desolate is about an IDOL ABOMINATION. Christ directly pointed to it as a warning in relation to the temple in Jerusalem (per Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14). And He DIRECTLY referred to it within this Daniel prophecy your trying to destroy by heeding the false teachings of Ellen White and et al.

The Ezekiel 8 chapter gives a better description about that IDOL ABOMINATION ("abomination of desolation"), and how our Heavenly Father feels about it, and His people falling into false idol worship. It makes Him jealous like He said there. You ought to read it.

And just to make SURE those who 'stay' in God's Word as written for these last days would UNDERSTAND what that "abomination of desolation" is, He allowed Antiochus IV in 165-170 B.C. to setup an idol abomination inside the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, as a PATTERN for the one Daniel was shown that's to occur in our near future!

The good thing in your case, is that NOW at least you have been shown what the Dan.9:27 events regarding that abominatoin of desolation in Jerusalem is actually about, so that WHEN you see it happen in our near future, you will have NO excuse.




As for that reasoning, I sort of... grasp what you're saying, but only in the following aspect regarding the Book of Daniel...

The Book of Daniel has 'historical' events also that 'overlay' some events in the coming tribulation time of our near future to the end when Christ returns. But it does NOT change nor modify the events of the 70 weeks prophecy that Daniel was given. The final "one week" events of Dan.9:27 (and their associated Daniel Scripture elsewhere) is STILL our pattern for the end today, and has things within them that have NEVER happened yet in history.

With that said, some of the historical parts in Daniel do.... serve as "ensamples" for the future tribulation time. Daniel was tested for 10 days (Dan.1). Christ revealed some of those of the Church of Smyrna would suffer tribulation in prison 10 days. Daniel was to be nourished for 3 years prior to being delivered up before the king of Babylon (Dan.1). The abomination idol that Nebuchadnezzar made for all to bow in worship in that time is the main pattern for the 'image of the beast' Christ showed John at the end of Revelation 13. The king of Babylon tried to exalt himself above GOD, which is what the coming Antichrist is also to do at the end of this world. In Isaiah 14, God gives a 'proverb' (parable) about the king of Babylon, and then associates him as an anti-type to Lucifer. In Revelation 17 forward, Christ uses the title of Babylon to describe the beast kingdom for the end under the coming false messiah.

So, there are historical parallels in Daniel with the Revelation events also. But the 70 weeks prophecy is still not completed yet today, and won't be until Christ Jesus returns at His second coming.

You need to stop with this Ellen White thing. Seriously, Ellen White did not feed me the information. She doesn't pick me up, and baby me. You know, I actually took time to read and study this prophecy, because it didn't make sense to me. I'm not sitting here being spoonfed garbage. I actually asked valid questions, and everyone wants to throw it in my face. This is why I cannot believe this prophecy. Not one person can sit down, and give a valid proof. Not a single person. You're a Christian, when someone asks you the reason for your beliefs, don't sit there and start saying their in a cult, and that their they aren't thinking for themselves. If your belief is so solid, lay it out for them. The deception here is: "Did this happen?!" Of course it happened, God said it would - Period.

You are misunderstanding the syntax of Daniel 9. I have told you, what Daniel 9 refers too. The prophecy is about Jesus, and the Holy City. Where does the assertion that is speaking of Anti-Christ AND that the prophecy is supposed to happen in the future come from. That's what I want.

Where is the Biblical Proof that Daniel 9:27 -

1) Is about the Anti-Christ
2) Is sometime in the near future

How about this:

When Christ was prophecied to be dead for three days, and then rise - Is this a split prophecy?
When Jeremiah gave the Word that 70 years was how long Israel would be desolate - Was that a split prophecy?
Consider your Chart - Is that a split prophecy?
Does 1260 days mean 9,381 days?
Does 1290 days mean 2354 days?
Does 1335 days actually mean 1490 days?
How about this - Does Daniels 70th week, being 7 years, does it actually mean 9,239,327 years?

As for Isaiah 61:2, Prophetic timeline gap? Is speaking about two different prophecies that have a length of time between them, a "prophetic timeline gap"? There is no prophetic timeline gap. Is there a "prophetic timeline gap" in first 7 weeks of Daniel, and the the other 62 weeks? After all, those are two different times spoken of. So, am I now to assume there is a prophetic timeline gap, that splits up that prophecy there as well, because it speaks of two different events?

Where does it give a definite time prophecy in Isaiah 61:2? Sure, it spoke of definite events. But, where was the definite time prophecy? Where did Christ give a definite number in the time that was going to happen? Where is the exact number given? Nowhere. So, is there anywhere asserted a prophetic timeline gap is involved? No. If someone prophecies to you that your going to bang your knee into the wall, and get in your car later, is there a prophetic timeline gap? Nope. Is there time inbetween there? Sure. Does this mean though, all of a sudden time immediatly stops for that prophecy, until the next event continues? No.

I have "missed" it, because it's not in there. I have only read what you are asserting is there.
 

tgwprophet

New Member
Jul 9, 2011
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#52 Raeneske wrote: " I understand about a "dual purpose prophecy". I just want the foundation for such a thing. A sure foundation, is what i'm looking for. I want the Biblical Basis, so that you can provide me with scripture, to back up your claim. I want to know, is this something you think is true, or is this something the Word of God actually says.

You are doing much better than I thought you would do from the beginning. I wrote two manuiscripts on Revelatio prophecy and published them for anyone to access freely on the internet. In those manuscripts I left the 70 weeks alone and did not include it as a considered fact because of these very reasons. So you are asking me for proof of the duality of the prohecy and I already explained it as best I could... for now. In my research i encountered viability of both and earned to accept the possibility of both.

You are asking for fact based assurance AND I tell you it is not there, just like asking for an absolute proving the rapture, or the absolute that Tribulation lasts 7 years. Or an Absolute that Revelation would be fulfilled in one generation... meaning 40 years AND that it began in 1948...of which was once thought to be true but since then has been proven wrong. During Revelation and Tribulation there are events that will not be understood absolutely correct until the seal is opened that allows its revealing, but you are asking for that revealing head of schedule.

What I did, was to give you the best answer I could, at this time... you can accept it until a better answer is revealed... you can toss it so far away you cannot recognize it if it is revealed... or you can keep it, but maintain your own stance so if it is proven correct you will be able to accept it. The choice is yours. All I have done is give you my best recomendation.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
You need to stop with this Ellen White thing. Seriously, Ellen White did not feed me the information. She doesn't pick me up, and baby me.

You're the one who keeps referring to her personal timelines for Daniel, not me. As long as you keep doing that, then I will keep mentioning it's her doctrines you're following. And so far, all you've done is offer her opinion and yours, and have failed to address the events of the Dan.9:27 verse.


You know, I actually took time to read and study this prophecy, because it didn't make sense to me. I'm not sitting here being spoonfed garbage. I actually asked valid questions, and everyone wants to throw it in my face. This is why I cannot believe this prophecy. Not one person can sit down, and give a valid proof. Not a single person. You're a Christian, when someone asks you the reason for your beliefs, don't sit there and start saying their in a cult, and that their they aren't thinking for themselves. If your belief is so solid, lay it out for them. The deception here is: "Did this happen?!" Of course it happened, God said it would - Period.

That's simply more declaration by you that you don't really understand the events of the Dan.9:27 verse, because of listening to doctrines associated with Ellen White's theories.


You are misunderstanding the syntax of Daniel 9. I have told you, what Daniel 9 refers too. The prophecy is about Jesus, and the Holy City. Where does the assertion that is speaking of Anti-Christ AND that the prophecy is supposed to happen in the future come from. That's what I want.

The specific question are the events given in the Dan.9:27 verse, which includes the act of the "abomination of desolation" which Christ warned us about. Yet per the false doctrine you adhere to, you say that verse is about Christ Jesus, which is to wrongly say that Jesus is Who sets that abomination of desolation, an idol in false worship.


Where is the Biblical Proof that Daniel 9:27 -

1) Is about the Anti-Christ
2) Is sometime in the near future

How about this:

When Christ was prophecied to be dead for three days, and then rise - Is this a split prophecy?
When Jeremiah gave the Word that 70 years was how long Israel would be desolate - Was that a split prophecy?
Consider your Chart - Is that a split prophecy?
Does 1260 days mean 9,381 days?
Does 1290 days mean 2354 days?
Does 1335 days actually mean 1490 days?
How about this - Does Daniels 70th week, being 7 years, does it actually mean 9,239,327 years?

You're STILL not addressing the specific events of the Daniel 9:27 verse. And it's apparent you do not intend to, which means you've failed to back up Ellen White's theories that it's about the time of Christ's Ministry and crucifixion. And you're not the first here on this forum that has pushed Ellen White's and associate's doctrines that it's about Christ with the 70th week having been fulfilled.


As for Isaiah 61:2, Prophetic timeline gap? Is speaking about two different prophecies that have a length of time between them, a "prophetic timeline gap"? There is no prophetic timeline gap. Is there a "prophetic timeline gap" in first 7 weeks of Daniel, and the the other 62 weeks? After all, those are two different times spoken of. So, am I now to assume there is a prophetic timeline gap, that splits up that prophecy there as well, because it speaks of two different events?

The subject of Luke 4 and Isaiah 61:1-2 is Christ revealing the idea of timeline gaps in His Word. It's impossible for you to refute what He Himself showed with that. So yes, two different events for two separate times, is what the Isaiah 61:1-2 Scripture is about, with Christ revealing that in Luke 4, for He only read down to the last two phrases of Isaiah 61:2 and then stopped, closed the book, because those last two phrases are for His 2nd coming. And it's been HOW LONG since He read that in the temple? Almost 2,000 years now, and His 2nd coming has not happened yet. And THAT is Biblical proof of the 'concept' of a timeline gap.


Where does it give a definite time prophecy in Isaiah 61:2? Sure, it spoke of definite events. But, where was the definite time prophecy? Where did Christ give a definite number in the time that was going to happen? Where is the exact number given? Nowhere. So, is there anywhere asserted a prophetic timeline gap is involved? No. If someone prophecies to you that your going to bang your knee into the wall, and get in your car later, is there a prophetic timeline gap? Nope. Is there time inbetween there? Sure. Does this mean though, all of a sudden time immediatly stops for that prophecy, until the next event continues? No.

I have "missed" it, because it's not in there. I have only read what you are asserting is there.

No, you're in DENIAL, which is a lot different than just missing it by not understanding.

Luke 4:16-21
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
20 And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
21 And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
(KJV)

Why did He stop reading at this point in Isaiah 61:2?

Isa 61:2
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
(KJV)

It's because that "day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn" is for a later... time, the time of His 2nd coming, His return to this earth.


Because you would rather listen to something else instead of Him, why should He show you anything? Why should He open your eyes that you might see? Holding to doctrines of others instead of listening to Him in His Word means you've doubted Him and instead go to others for understanding. Why should He show you anything?
 

jeffweeder

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We know that after 69 weeks, the Messiah shall be cut off. To be after 69 weeks, is to be in the 70th week. In the 70th week of Daniel the Messiah shall be cut off. But he shall not be cut off for Himself.

I agree.
69 weeks would pass "until Messiah".

Is not the 70 weeks all about atonement?

After the 69 weeks, Messiah would come to...
 
to finish the transgression,

to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.
 
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
 

 
 
69 weeks pass, Messiah appears to do his work of atonement in the 70th week. 70 weeks were determined and Jesus was victorious.He completed the work that Father sent him to do.
Jesus could not have been cut off at the end of the 69th week, as he was victorious in atoning for iniquity. 70 weeks are determined for this to happen ,not 69, as are all those other points. The cross is what brought atonement and everlasting righteousness for those who believe.
 
 
 
John the baptist prepared the way and declared that Jesus was the Messiah when he saw the Holy Spirit descend on him and remain, at his baptism. So "until Messiah" = Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit to start his ministry in taking away the sin of the world.At the end of his ministry he declared that it was finished.He then ascended to the Father, annointing the most holy place, preparing a place for us to dwell there.
 
John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."
 

veteran

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I agree.
69 weeks would pass "until Messiah".

Is not the 70 weeks all about atonement?

After the 69 weeks, Messiah would come to...
 
to finish the transgression,

to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.
 
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
 

 
 
69 weeks pass, Messiah appears to do his work of atonement in the 70th week. 70 weeks were determined and Jesus was victorious.He completed the work that Father sent him to do.
Jesus could not have been cut off at the end of the 69th week, as he was victorious in atoning for iniquity. 70 weeks are determined for this to happen ,not 69, as are all those other points. The cross is what brought atonement and everlasting righteousness for those who believe.
 
 
 
John the baptist prepared the way and declared that Jesus was the Messiah when he saw the Holy Spirit descend on him and remain, at his baptism. So "until Messiah" = Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit to start his ministry in taking away the sin of the world.At the end of his ministry he declared that it was finished.He then ascended to the Father, annointing the most holy place, preparing a place for us to dwell there.
 
John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."

There's yet another one here eating and drinking the false doctrines of Ellen White, et al.

Notice how they COMPLETELY FAIL to address the specific events of the Daniel 9:27 verse.


With the following verse, 'they' say it was fulfilled BY Christ Jesus DURING His Ministry to the time of His crucifixion to complete the 70th final week...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." - which "he"? English grammar requires us to go back one verse and pick up the subject to find out who that "he" is. The last person mentioned in the previous Dan.9:26 verse is the prince of the people that would come to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, which happened in 70 A.D. That was general Titus, a Roman general that led his army to destroy Jerusalem, with trying to sieze the 2nd temple when it burned from inside (per Josephus).

"...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..." - That event is about the ending of ALL sacrifices in Jerusalem and the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate, it is written specifically in the Dan.11:31 Scripture and is done by one called a "vile person"...

That "vile person":

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)


He has his servants end sacrifices and then place the abomination (idol) that makes the temple desolate...

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

If anyone thinks that is about our Lord Jesus Christ, then they are ravening wolves dressed in sheep's clothing.
 

Raeneske

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#52 Raeneske wrote: " I understand about a "dual purpose prophecy". I just want the foundation for such a thing. A sure foundation, is what i'm looking for. I want the Biblical Basis, so that you can provide me with scripture, to back up your claim. I want to know, is this something you think is true, or is this something the Word of God actually says.

You are doing much better than I thought you would do from the beginning. I wrote two manuiscripts on Revelatio prophecy and published them for anyone to access freely on the internet. In those manuscripts I left the 70 weeks alone and did not include it as a considered fact because of these very reasons. So you are asking me for proof of the duality of the prohecy and I already explained it as best I could... for now. In my research i encountered viability of both and earned to accept the possibility of both.

You are asking for fact based assurance AND I tell you it is not there, just like asking for an absolute proving the rapture, or the absolute that Tribulation lasts 7 years. Or an Absolute that Revelation would be fulfilled in one generation... meaning 40 years AND that it began in 1948...of which was once thought to be true but since then has been proven wrong. During Revelation and Tribulation there are events that will not be understood absolutely correct until the seal is opened that allows its revealing, but you are asking for that revealing head of schedule.

What I did, was to give you the best answer I could, at this time... you can accept it until a better answer is revealed... you can toss it so far away you cannot recognize it if it is revealed... or you can keep it, but maintain your own stance so if it is proven correct you will be able to accept it. The choice is yours. All I have done is give you my best recomendation.

I mean no disrespect, but without the sure foundation of the Bible, I cannot believe other's theories.

You're the one who keeps referring to her personal timelines for Daniel, not me. As long as you keep doing that, then I will keep mentioning it's her doctrines you're following. And so far, all you've done is offer her opinion and yours, and have failed to address the events of the Dan.9:27 verse.




That's simply more declaration by you that you don't really understand the events of the Dan.9:27 verse, because of listening to doctrines associated with Ellen White's theories.




The specific question are the events given in the Dan.9:27 verse, which includes the act of the "abomination of desolation" which Christ warned us about. Yet per the false doctrine you adhere to, you say that verse is about Christ Jesus, which is to wrongly say that Jesus is Who sets that abomination of desolation, an idol in false worship.




You're STILL not addressing the specific events of the Daniel 9:27 verse. And it's apparent you do not intend to, which means you've failed to back up Ellen White's theories that it's about the time of Christ's Ministry and crucifixion. And you're not the first here on this forum that has pushed Ellen White's and associate's doctrines that it's about Christ with the 70th week having been fulfilled.




The subject of Luke 4 and Isaiah 61:1-2 is Christ revealing the idea of timeline gaps in His Word. It's impossible for you to refute what He Himself showed with that. So yes, two different events for two separate times, is what the Isaiah 61:1-2 Scripture is about, with Christ revealing that in Luke 4, for He only read down to the last two phrases of Isaiah 61:2 and then stopped, closed the book, because those last two phrases are for His 2nd coming. And it's been HOW LONG since He read that in the temple? Almost 2,000 years now, and His 2nd coming has not happened yet. And THAT is Biblical proof of the 'concept' of a timeline gap.




No, you're in DENIAL, which is a lot different than just missing it by not understanding.

Luke 4:16-21
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
20 And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
21 And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
(KJV)

Why did He stop reading at this point in Isaiah 61:2?

Isa 61:2
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
(KJV)

It's because that "day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn" is for a later... time, the time of His 2nd coming, His return to this earth.


Because you would rather listen to something else instead of Him, why should He show you anything? Why should He open your eyes that you might see? Holding to doctrines of others instead of listening to Him in His Word means you've doubted Him and instead go to others for understanding. Why should He show you anything?

I have not failed to address the events in Daniel 9:27, I have done so repeatedly.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27 KJV)

And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for a week. This is many Israelites, which for the last week of Daniel, Christ was to confirm the covenant with many for a week. What covenant? The New Covenant which was confirmed with the remnant obediant Israelites, for one week. 3.5 years during Christ's ministry, and 3.5 years after Christ's ministry. That makes 7 years, which is a week, prophetically speaking. Now, in the midst of the week, that's the 70th week, he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. This is Jesus Christ, who when hedied, caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease to matter. Hence - the ripping of the temple vail. And for the overspreading of abominations, notice, abominations. There are many abominations in this world, which God hates. This is not saying specifically idol worship, though I would not be surprised if that is one of them. 6 things the Lord hates, and 7 are an abomination to him. Eating of uncleaned food was an abomination. It is an overspreading anount of abominations that was going to make Israel desolate.

I am not referring to a "personal timeline", simply because I believe the number 70 logically follows the number 69. Because the 7 year tribulation may be commonly asserted, does not mean it stands within the Bible. The 7 year tribulation is a manmade assertion, as not one soul who would read that verse would automatically assume 70 is far in the future, while 69 already passed. God's word does not hint to this. I have posted time and time again regarding this issue. Requesting a sure Biblical foundation, and then posts about Ellen White doesn't prove your point. It proves that you cannot prove your point. As I said, does the 70 years, 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, and 2300 days have a split in it. No. Why?

Show me where the assertion is, that the Verses start speaking about:

1) The 70th week being future
2) Anti-Christ.

You are assuming both, without a Biblical foundation.

Speaking of two different ideas does not show a timeline gap. Christ did not split up a definite time prophecy. The verse in question he read spoke of two different events. Is there time between those two events? Yes. But he did not take an event that was to be "70 weeks" and say 69 are already past, and after about 2000 years, then the number 70 comes. Time between two prophecies, and a timeline gap are not the same thing.

I'm going to eat, and going to sleep. Those are two events, which obviously have time between them. But would this make any sense:

"10 minutes are left for you to do your homework. After 3 minutes, the heater is going to cut off. After 8 minutes the lights will start to dim. On the 10 minute, you will be done with your homework." Does it make any sense to say there is a timeline gap inbetween that? Sure there is time between the events, but there is no stoppage of the clock, simply because many different events are spoken of. Where is the proof that when I said the 10th minute, I actually meant on the 9th minute, we'll stop the countdown until tomorrow. That's pretty much what you're telling me regarding Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Israel's clock was 490 years. You're saying that after 483 years have passed, God stopped the clock, and he'll pick up on it after about 2000 years. That's exactly what you're saying - and it is illogical, no matter if all the world except two Christians believe it. There is no "gap" between a specific time prophecy. 68 logically follows 69. 26 logicaly follows 25. The 1335th "day" logically follows the 1334th "day".There is no specific timeline prophecy laid out in Isaiah. Two events are prophecied, that is all. No timeline is given for that to occur.


I agree.
69 weeks would pass "until Messiah".

Is not the 70 weeks all about atonement?

After the 69 weeks, Messiah would come to...
 
to finish the transgression,

to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.
 
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
 

 
 
69 weeks pass, Messiah appears to do his work of atonement in the 70th week. 70 weeks were determined and Jesus was victorious.He completed the work that Father sent him to do.
Jesus could not have been cut off at the end of the 69th week, as he was victorious in atoning for iniquity. 70 weeks are determined for this to happen ,not 69, as are all those other points. The cross is what brought atonement and everlasting righteousness for those who believe.
 
 
 
John the baptist prepared the way and declared that Jesus was the Messiah when he saw the Holy Spirit descend on him and remain, at his baptism. So "until Messiah" = Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit to start his ministry in taking away the sin of the world.At the end of his ministry he declared that it was finished.He then ascended to the Father, annointing the most holy place, preparing a place for us to dwell there.
 
John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."

Good post, and Amen.

There's yet another one here eating and drinking the false doctrines of Ellen White, et al.

Notice how they COMPLETELY FAIL to address the specific events of the Daniel 9:27 verse.


With the following verse, 'they' say it was fulfilled BY Christ Jesus DURING His Ministry to the time of His crucifixion to complete the 70th final week...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." - which "he"? English grammar requires us to go back one verse and pick up the subject to find out who that "he" is. The last person mentioned in the previous Dan.9:26 verse is the prince of the people that would come to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, which happened in 70 A.D. That was general Titus, a Roman general that led his army to destroy Jerusalem, with trying to sieze the 2nd temple when it burned from inside (per Josephus).

"...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..." - That event is about the ending of ALL sacrifices in Jerusalem and the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate, it is written specifically in the Dan.11:31 Scripture and is done by one called a "vile person"...

That "vile person":

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)


He has his servants end sacrifices and then place the abomination (idol) that makes the temple desolate...

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

If anyone thinks that is about our Lord Jesus Christ, then they are ravening wolves dressed in sheep's clothing.

This is not english grammar, which is why I said you are misunderstanding the syntax of the verse. This is not the english which you and I speak today, thus, it does not carry the same rules.
 

jeffweeder

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There's yet another one here eating and drinking the false doctrines of Ellen White, et al.

Im not familiar with the doctrines of Ellen White.
Im sure that there are some who would agree with you veteran, but you wouldnt agree with them about all doctrine.

These are my own observations, due to my quest of trying to understand what it is that the Spirit is really saying to us.

Would you like to comment on what i said about the impossibility of Jesus being cut off at the end of the 69th week?
The cutting off of Jesus = the atonement of iniquity, decreed to happen in 70 weeks.
 

Rex

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That is veterans blanket statement "Ellen White", that when cast also covers the reformers. I think it wise to follow the bread crumbs and you find that many who went threw the bloody breaking away from the RCC thought the same of Dan 9:27 Matthew Henry's was one. Any commentary near or before this time is the RCC.

I would prefer you call me a follower of Matthew Henry, I also believe it is about Christ not antichrist.
I would also like to point out the Jewish scribes and pharisees were blinded by this verse as well. Or they understood it yet sought to kill the the son of the vineyards owner, that they might receive his inheritance like the parable Jesus told.
Ether way the failure of properly interpreting this verse has dire consequences in the days of Jesus as well as today.

Matthew Henry

(v. 24-27). And it is the clearest, brightest, prophecy of the Messiah, in all the Old Testament.

He came to anoint the most holy, that is, himself, the Holy One, who was anointed (that is, appointed to his work and qualified for it) by the Holy Ghost, that oil of gladness which he received without measure, above his fellows; or to anoint the gospel-church, his spiritual temple, or holy place, to sanctify and cleanse it, and appropriate it to himself (Eph. 5:26 ), or to consecrate for us a new and living way into the holiest, by his own blood (Heb. 10:20 ), as the sanctuary was anointed, Ex. 30:25 , etc. He is called Messiah (v. 25, v. 26), which signifies Christ-Anointed (Jn. 1:41 ), because he received the unction both for himself and for all that are his. [5.] In order to all this the Messiah must be cut off, must die a violent death, and so be cut off from the land of the living, as was foretold, Isa. 53:8 . Hence, when Paul preaches the death of Christ, he says that he preached nothing but what the prophet said should come, Acts. 26:22, Acts. 26:23 . And thus it behoved Christ to suffer. He must be cut off, but not for himself —not for any sin of his own, but, as Caiaphas prophesied, he must die for the people, in our stead and for our good,—not for any advantage of his own (the glory he purchased for himself was no more than the glory he had before, Jn. 17:4, Jn. 17:5 ); no; it was to atone for our sins, and to purchase life for us, that he was cut off. [6.] He must
confirm the covenant with many. He shall introduce a new covenant between God and man, a covenant of grace, since it had become impossible for us to be saved by a covenant of innocence. This covenant he shall confirm by his doctrine and miracles, by his death and resurrection, by the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s supper, which are the seals of the New Testament, assuring us that God is willing to accept us upon gospel-terms. His death made his testament of force, and enabled us to claim what is bequeathed by it. He confirmed it to the many, to the common people; the poor were evangelized, when the rulers and Pharisees believed not on him. Or, he confirmed it with many, with the Gentile world. The New Testament was not (like the Old) confined to the Jewish church, but was committed to all nations. Christ gave his life a ransom for many. [7.] He must cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. By offering himself a sacrifice once for all he shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices, shall supercede them and set them aside; when the substance comes the shadows shall be done away. He causes all the peace-offerings to cease when he has made peace by the blood of his cross, and by it confirmed the covenant of peace and reconciliation. By the preaching of his gospel to the world, with which the apostles were entrusted, he took men off from expecting remission by the blood of bulls and goats, and so caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The apostle in his epistle to the Hebrews shows what a better priesthood, altar, and sacrifice, we have now than they had under the law, as a reason why we should hold fast our profession.

http://www.biblestud...iel/9.html?p=11
 

veteran

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That is veterans blanket statement "Ellen White", that when cast also covers the reformers. I think it wise to follow the bread crumbs and you find that many who went threw the bloody breaking away from the RCC thought the same of Dan 9:27 Matthew Henry's was one. Any commentary near or before this time is the RCC.

That's an ignorant statement. And it sort of reveals you've got a liking of her doctrines too.

We also notice you didn't attempt to address the content of the Dan.9:27 verse to back Ellen White's theories up either.

I mean no disrespect, but without the sure foundation of the Bible, I cannot believe other's theories.

But the theories of 'others' is EXACTLY what you have admitted to believing in regarding Daniel's 70 weeks.


I have not failed to address the events in Daniel 9:27, I have done so repeatedly.

You have not even begun to TRY and address the events within the Daniel 9:27 verse. And THAT you MUST do... if you intend to prove Ellen White's interpretation of the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy.


[quote]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27 KJV)

And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for a week. This is many Israelites, which for the last week of Daniel, Christ was to confirm the covenant with many for a week. What covenant? The New Covenant which was confirmed with the remnant obediant Israelites, for one week. 3.5 years during Christ's ministry, and 3.5 years after Christ's ministry. That makes 7 years, which is a week, prophetically speaking.[/quote]

You cannot just arbitrarily assign that "he" as being our Lord Jesus Christ. If you showed that single Dan.9:27 verse to someone who had never... read the Book of Daniel before, and asked them to interpret that single verse by itself, one of the first things they would ask is, "who is this 'he' mentioned here?" They would naturally... want to go back up in Dan.9 to the next previous verse to find that out...

Dan 9:26
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(KJV)

It's that specific "prince that shall come" which defines that "he" of the Daniel 9:27 verse. What does that "prince that shall come" do? He "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;".

THAT particular "prince that shall come" there is NOT our Lord Jesus Christ. The word for "prince" by itself can simply mean 'commander, chief ruler, governer, leader, noble, captain' (Strong's no. 5057). That word for "prince" used for our Lord Jesus back in the Dan.9:25 verse was the phrase "the Messiah the Prince". Even the KJV translators understood that difference, since they put that word in capital as "the Messiah the Prince", meaning the Anointed Chief Ruler (i.e., King).

History has ALREADY revealed who that "prince that shall come" that would destroy the city and the sanctuary as the Roman general Titus who led the Roman army into Jerusalem and sacked it to the ground, with the 2nd temple burning to the ground. And we even know WHEN that happened, i.e., in 70 A.D.

But the doctrine you hold to has you placing that event when? Back 3.5 years during Christ's Ministry, and then 3.5 years after His crucifixion. You HAVE to include the actions by the false "prince" of Dan.9:25 concerning the destruction of 70 A.D. Jerusalem, because that's the "he" of Dan.9:27.

Let's see what trouble you run into with the next part...


Now, in the midst of the week, that's the 70th week, he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. This is Jesus Christ, who when hedied, caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease to matter. Hence - the ripping of the temple vail. And for the overspreading of abominations, notice, abominations. There are many abominations in this world, which God hates. This is not saying specifically idol worship, though I would not be surprised if that is one of them. 6 things the Lord hates, and 7 are an abomination to him. Eating of uncleaned food was an abomination. It is an overspreading anount of abominations that was going to make Israel desolate.

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

The following verses further describes just what it is that "he" is to do in Jerusalem...

Dan 8:11-13
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
(KJV)

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Those above Dan.8:12-13 and Dan.11:31 verses further DEFINE just what that event of ending the sacrifice and doing the abomination is about. It is about ending that covenant and the sacrifices, and instead placing an abomination idol in the sanctuary that makes the sanctuary desolate (spiritually through false idol worship).

Did Jesus do ANY of that? NO! Absolutely NOT! To even infer that He did is borderling on blasphemy against The Holy Spirit!

An idol abomination IS the specific meaning per those Daniel Scriptures. And we've already been given a previous historical pattern for it with Antiochus IV in 165-170 B.C. who took Jerusalem, sacrificed swine upon the altar in the 2nd temple, and then setup an IDOL abomination inside it commanding all to bow to it in false worship. None of that working is of The Christ. Instead, it is a working of Satan and his servants. That particular "prince" of Dan.9:26 was the Roman general Titus serving as an anti-type for the coming final Antichrist.

During the time of our Lord Jesus' Ministry, He NEVER made any covenant for a limited time period of 7 years, and nor in the middle of the 7 years did He end sacrifices in Jerusalem and setup an abomination idol in the temple.

In the Dan.11:31 verse, the idea of "shall pollute the sanctuary of strength" means to SPIRITUALLY desolate a STANDING sanctuary in Jerusalem. How is that done? By placing an IDOL abomination in the sanctuary for false worship.

So you've got MAJOR PROBLEMS if you think Christ Jesus is Who does that.

Part II of the interpreting the meaning and time for the events of Daniel 9:27.

Because the "he" of Dan.9:27 must point back to that "prince that shall come" in v.26, and... that specific prince was about Titus in the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, then where did the ending of sacrifices and placing the abomination of desolation event fit in?

It doesn't fit in with anything Titus or the Romans did in 70 A.D. Some have tried to make those Dan.9:27 events fit in the time of 70 A.D. with the Roman general Titus, but the abomination idol did not happen then. No idol abomination was setup in the 2nd temple then, simply because the temple burned down before the Roman army could sieze control of it, as they had wanted to capture the temple entact per the Jewish historian Josephus.

Yet Daniel was given abundant info about the "vile person" that would come, exalting himself above God, ending sacrifices in Jerusalem with placing an abomination idol to make the sanctuary desolate (spiritually desolate with idol worship). That picture of an idol abomination in false worship is one of the MAJOR events written in the Book of Daniel, as the king of Babylon had a golden idol image made requiring all to bow in false worship to it at the sound of the psalter. And all those who refused to bow were to be killed.

That idol abomination idea is further established in later Bible prophecy, and it is for the end of days just prior to Christ's 2nd coming. In Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, He specifically warned of something being set in the holy place when answering His disciple's ponderings about the Jerusalem temple and temple mount area and the events to happen that end this world. In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul specifically covered the fact that two main events must occur prior to Christ's return and our gathering, that there must come a great apoasty, and the man of sin must first come to sit in a stone temple in Jerusalem, proclaiming himself as God, and over all that is called God or that is worshipped. Then in Rev.13, our Lord gave Apostle John to see a 2nd beast coming that speaks as a dragon, and does great wonders and signs to deceive, and sets up a beast image in false worship with almost the same kind of event that the king of Babylon did in Daniel's days with the golden idol.

Once all these prophetic events are understood as written, then it is practically impossible to miss their interlaced relationship with events to occur in Jerusalem for the end of this world involving a rebuilt temple, and a false one coming to power to sit in it and proclaim himself as God doing miracles to deceive, and his placing of a beast image idol in it like Antiochus IV did (instead of sacrifices), requiring all to bow in worship to that "abomination of desolation" idol or be killed.

God does give us blueprint patterns for prophetic fulfillment of future events in His Word. And the Dan.9:27 events is one such case. The history about Antiochus IV is proof of it. Even the Roman army under Titus is a blueprint, as also the golden idol image the king of Babylon setup for false worship. These patterns of partial fulfillment is what Apostle Paul called "ensamples" per 2 Cor.11. It's what Solomon said about what has been will be again, for there is no new thing under the sun. The fact that these events involve historical patterns and more details in later Bible prophecy for the end is about our Heavenly Father preparing those who pay attention to them of things to come.