Those Scriptures don't really answer any of the questions, and actually kind of intensify the point. You say that Scripture isn't really entirely reliable, but then quote Scripture to make your point-- how do you know those Scriptures are reliable? What is the list of books you think should be in the canon of the New Testament, for example, and what is your criteria for believing that those are the books?
Spoken Word and Written Word are the Same
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bosco said:
Is it as well a mystery to you that many who heard the word directly from Jesus mouth didn't understand?bosco said:
Is it a mystery that many read the bible and don't understand equally today?
What it does prove is the mystery of Gods word is revealed threw the HS. It's the same today in the written word, as it was when Jesus and the disciples first spoke the words.
Now If your fishing for confirmation from men good luck, The Spirit with-in me confirms and testifies to the written word. Just as some confirmed and testified to Jesus "spoken word" and many didn't.
I really don't care to replace it with a spirit that testifies to men. Or start on the path that men have provided a book containing the words of God, therefore they must be the authority. They had nothing to do with the words contained within it, I'm speaking about those that canonized it. Isn't that so typical of men to find something of value that they had no part in producing, then take credit for its contents? Today we call that pirating someone else's work.
I just want to add that those who attempt to copy, altar or reproduce the effect or end results of the product "the bible" but not use the "code" of the original word are called freelancers AKA false prophets or simply illegal pirates, entering by another door as Jesus said.
In the same way you can't decipher the code "bible" with out the Holy Spirit as the cipher or key, nothing about the word has changed its still encrypted, hidden from hearts and minds that are not true.
i hope you have enjoyed my software / bible metaphor.
Man reads the bible gets his understanding, than goes to God and says this is how it is, and if God disagrees than well God must be wrong the bible right. This is the flesh this is how the emey decieves so many. Now when you do it in the right order, ask Jesus to show you things ask Him to pour out His spirit upon you ask Him for revelation, than quiet often He will show you things in the bible that you have not read before, change the way you read something because now He is the one teaching you not you trying to teach Him.
You cannot get revelation from reading the bible, you cannot get it from man, you cannot get it from the church, bible study, prophets or anyone else, only God. If you have given your life to Him accepted Him than you have the Holy Spirit, but you must have faith and believe. If you do not than you have shut God out
Try it you may be pleasemtly suprised of course to many christians you mab be a fool, but you will come into the truth.
In Hia Love.
You cannot get revelation from reading the bible, you cannot get it from man, you cannot get it from the church, bible study, prophets or anyone else, only God. If you have given your life to Him accepted Him than you have the Holy Spirit, but you must have faith and believe. If you do not than you have shut God out
Try it you may be pleasemtly suprised of course to many christians you mab be a fool, but you will come into the truth.
In Hia Love.
No. That is 180 degrees out of wack. God reveals Himself in the pages of Scripture. What is revealed to us in personal experience about God is most often too many anchovies on the pizza the night before.
If personal revelation does not line up with scripture then it is YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT IS WRONG, not the pages of scripture. Sorry to burst your self idol worship but that is the Truth. Judges 21:25 "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit." How's it feel to be without your King?
If personal revelation does not line up with scripture then it is YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT IS WRONG, not the pages of scripture. Sorry to burst your self idol worship but that is the Truth. Judges 21:25 "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit." How's it feel to be without your King?
No, I speak of the worship of self as the vehicle for revelation rather than Scripture. We know nothing of God, or Christ, of sin, of life, of death, apart from Scripture. To stand and claim Christ or the Holy Spirit or the Father will grant secret understanding from scripture apart from scripture is disaster. Scripture interprets itself, that means any meaning we pour into the verses of the Bible serve only to corrupt it, not bring it to fullness and life.
Brother James
Active Member
Too many people attempt to be the first to find some esoteric hidden meaning in scriptures. That is not how scriptures work. There are no "secrets" buried in scriptures waiting to be "discovered". On the other hand, people can and do have direct personal encounters with God. Those do not conflict with anything found in scripture and they are personal.
"The letter of Holy Scripture is like having a photograph of a person whom we wish to meet at the airport. The image in our hands is not the living person and cannot adequately portray his living reality. But it enables us to recognize the right person when we see him and prevents us from mistaking him for another person. So Scripture may help us recognize the Spirit of Jesus and keep us from embracing another spirit." (Robert D. Brinsmead, "The Necessity and Limits of Holy Scripture," The Christian Verdict, Essay 16, 1984. Fallbrook: Verdict Publications. Pg 5).
Didnt help the pharisees. They had the OT, they knew it like the back of their hand. They where expectantly waiting for Jesus to come, and yet when He did, even after declaring to them who He was, they still did not recognize Him. Maybe thats why He spoke these words.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
It hasnt changed, christians still think they can find life in the dead letter, instead of going to the one who is Life.
In all His Love
Was Jesus lying when He said the Scriptures speak of Him? The pharisees were not deceived by the Scriptures, they were deceived by their own hearts. It's not the Scriptures that are at fault but our own hearts. Jesus said that they did not have the love of God in them and that they received honor from men. If someone comes to the Scriptures with a whole heart towards God they will have an experience with the Holy Spirit. If someone comes to the Scriptures with a divided heart they will only have a religious experience because they they are seeking their own gain and thus the letter is dead to them. They only use the Scriptures to make themselves look good to other men and to manipulate others. To the former person who comes to God's Word with a whole heart, the scriptures are life because the person's heart is oriented towards God and not self.mjrhealth said:
Jer_15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
I find it strange that you have nothing good to say about the Scriptures and never list any.
Ps_119:140 Thy word [is] very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Code:
JESUS VIEWED THE SCRIPTURES AS ORIGINATING WITH GOD. Mark_7:9-13
JESUS BELIEVED IN "VERBAL INSPIRATION" OF THE SCRIPTURES - THAT EVERY WORD WAS INSPIRED. Mark_12:26-27
WHEN JESUS WAS CONFRONTED BY THE JEWS, HE REPLIED WITH SCRIPTURE.
JESUS OFTEN SAID THAT CERTAIN EVENTS IN HIS LIFE, SOMETIMES HIS ENTIRE MINISTRY, FULFILLED OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES. Luke_4:16-21
JESUS BELIEVED THE SCRIPTURES TO BE HISTORICALLY TRUE.
JESUS OFTEN ASKED, "HAVE YOU NOT READ IN THE SCRIPTURES?".
JESUS SHOWED THE VALUE OF THE SCRIPTURES FOR OUR SPIRITUAL WELL BEING. Matt_4:4
JESUS USED THE SCRIPTURES IN OVERCOMING TEMPTATION. Matt_4:1-10
JESUS USED SCRIPTURES IN REBUKING SIN. Matt_21:12-13
Don't you think the view Jesus held of Scripture should be our view of Scripture? Is the view that He held of Scriptures the same view that you hold?If you could learn from Jesus or read the bible to which would you Go. The one whom the story is about or to the book written by men about Him. So many read biographies of people, than when they finally meet them, they discover the person is quiet unlike the story. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit, so many Deny Him.
In all His Love
In all His Love
Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Going to Scripture is appealing to Him. Christ is present in a unique way in His Word; it is a both/and proposition, not an either/or.
I think you are just coming from another vantage point. I don't know what your experiences are with men and the religious system, but you seem to be speaking to the religious Pharisee. The one who quotes the Scripture but does not obey Jesus nor have the love of God in them. I'm sure you are not discouraging new believers from reading the Scriptures with a whole heart and I am pretty sure you are not dissing those who God has called to teach the Word.mjrhealth said:
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Joh_1:1 In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.
Sound really foolish written that way doesnt it. Now when you speak of the bible, write bible, when you speak of something that He spoke write His word, soon you will see how the bible has replaced the Holy Spirit. They are not one and the same. His word is Spirit, its what holds things together, it is what gives men life. That the bible cannot do.
Again they are not supposed to teach the bible they are sent to teach the Gospel of Jesus, the truth.
In all His Love
Sound really foolish written that way doesnt it. Now when you speak of the bible, write bible, when you speak of something that He spoke write His word, soon you will see how the bible has replaced the Holy Spirit. They are not one and the same. His word is Spirit, its what holds things together, it is what gives men life. That the bible cannot do.
Again they are not supposed to teach the bible they are sent to teach the Gospel of Jesus, the truth.
In all His Love
Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:Brother James said:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.mjrhealth said:
2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The Holy Spirit speaks in harmony with scripture. If you have a spirit which speaks in contradiction of the sure word of God, you can be certain that is not the Holy Spirit, but an unclean spirit. Preach the Word, we are told, God's word is truth, we are to study the word of truth, rightly dividing it. The Bible cannot "replace" the Holy Spirit, the Bible teaches you truth. The Holy Spirit teaches you truth. They all speak in harmony of one another. If the spirit teaches you to ignore the Word of God -- ignore that spirit. It knows nothing.
Yes, that is silly MJR. But, you have gone to the other extreme by creating your strawman. True, there are biblicists that idolize the Bible.mjrhealth said:
Then there is the other extreme, people like you who throw the Scriptures completely out.
Neither extreme is correct or healthy.
One of the dangers from which the Church should pray to be delivered is idolatry of the letter of Scripture. The letter exists for the spirit, not the spirit for the letter.
Axehead
Remember this, the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples and to us long before pen was put to paper. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to teach is the truth, but if you already have all the answers than He has nothing to teach you.
In all His Love
In all His Love
The disciples grew up hearing the word of God read to them. Paul was a student of God's word. But they needed the Holy Spirit to illuminate their spirit and give those letters, life. I don't see where we disagree. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.mjrhealth said:
The disciples actually learnt from the Torah, then it was from Jesus Himself who showed them God,yet mostly they still did not understand, Than it was the Holy Spirit, after Pentecost, From that day on thats how the walked and taught" mostly" in the spirit. No books, they hadnt written any letters yet. But than someone decided to compile the bible, and what followed is mayhem and teh Holy Spirit is forgotten. No He was not sent to teach you the bible, He was sent to teach us the truth, but who need the Holy Spirit when you have pastors, and preachers and prophets to tell you what you want to hear. And so christians know the bible so well, but they do not know the heart of God, for they will not go to Jesus and learn from Him.
Mat_18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Yes lets all meet at His feet and learn from Him, He has so much to teach us.
In All His Love
Mat_18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Yes lets all meet at His feet and learn from Him, He has so much to teach us.
In All His Love
Jesus spoke to them as if they knew about the Law (Torah) and the Prophets and He even spoke to them about Solomon and the Book of Psalms. He mentioned Jonah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and many other books, too.mjrhealth said:
I must be reading a different Bible than you.
Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
1Co_4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co_14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
2Co_1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
2Co_2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Co_13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.
Gal_1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
Php_3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2Th_3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
1Ti_3:14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
2Pe_3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
1Jn_1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn_2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn_2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn_2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
2Jn_1:12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
3Jn_1:13 I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee:
Jud_1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev_2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev_2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev_2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Rev_3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev_3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev_3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev_14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev_19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Please look up every occurrence of Jesus saying, "It is written" in the Gospels. Jesus (through His Spirit) and the Apostles obviously continued to write to the Church after His death and resurrection.
You are diminishing the words that Jesus commanded to be written, and now I see you are diminishing the called of God, (pastors, preachers and prophets). I know your experience with religionists must be real bad, but MJR, there are true men of God out there that are called to pastor, preach and prophecy.
Act_8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act_8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act_8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act_15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
2Co_1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Col_4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
1Th_5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom_2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom_4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom_4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom_8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom_9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom_9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom_10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom_11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day. Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom_15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Rom_15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
And there is much more.
Do you by chance have any problem with Paul or Jesus who were constantly referring to what was written or directing us to read the Scriptures?
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