Pilgrimer
Active Member
I sincerely apologize Veteran, I did not see your post until now. I will respond this evening.veteran said:
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Three Days and Three Nights
- Thread starter rstrats
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Pilgrimer
Pilgrimer
Active Member
The KJV doesn’t “suggest” that Jesus and the Apostles’ last meal was the Passover, it states it in very unequivocal terms, that “on the first day of unleavened bread” “they prepared the Passover” and that evening they “sat down to eat.” There’s no wiggle room to make this mean anything other than what it says, that the last meal Jesus ate was the Passover which the disciples had prepared that afternoon.veteran said:
And as far as I know, that is the translation given in every version of the Bible that is of any consequence, and that is the precise wording in the Greek. So just what version are you getting your interpretation from? Let's take a look at it.
The phrase "kodesh mikra," translated "holy convocation" does not mean high sabbath. It means "holy assembly," and refers to the fact that on certain days the Jews were to "assemble" for worship and sacrifice. You can’t just redefine words like that, at best it’s poor scholarship, and at worst, its plain dishonest.veteran said:
And secondly, the Sanhedrists didn't arrest Jesus “on the feast day,” they arrested him secretly by night and held a rushed hearing at the palace of first Annas and then Ciaphas … in the middle of the night. Then very early the next morning, at 6:00 a.m., before most people had even risen, they brought him to Pilate and by the time the people gathered in the Temple for the morning sacrifice at 9:00 a.m. the deed was done.
There are no "clues" to some secret or hidden or obscure meaning. The Gospels state very simply and accurately that the Passover lambs were slain on the first day of unleavened bread, meaning the lambs were slain in the afternoon and eaten that evening, whether it was on Thursday, Wednesday, or Monday, the lambs were slain on that first day that they ate unleavened bread for their evening meal.veteran said:
But the Jews did not eat unleavened bread before the Passover. Go back to Exodus 12 and read closely how Passover began and what it all meant. On the afternoon of Nisan 14 they killed the lamb and sprinkled its blood on their doorposts. That night (the beginning of the 15th) they ate the passover and the first meal of unleavened bread. The reason they ate unleavened bread was because they ate in a hurry with their dough troughs and all their belongings packed up and ready to leave and did not have time to mix their bread and let it rise (Exodus 12:39).veteran said:
So you miss the whole point about why the Jews ate unleavened bread, and it was because they had to pack their belongings and be ready to leave Egypt during the night of Nisan 15 and didn't have time to rise their bread to eat with the Passover lamb they had sacrificed that afternoon and whose blood they had sprinkled on their doorposts. And for seven nights the Jews ate unleavened bread to remember "that night" (Nisan 15) when the Lord delivered them from Egypt after they had eaten the Passover and unleavened bread. They didn't eat unleavened bread the night before Passover. Nisan 15 was the “first day of unleavened bread,” not the second.
In Christ,
Pigrimer
I think my previous post well explained that our Lord Jesus and His Apostle held the last supper on the 14th of Nisan as per the commandment to eat unleavend bread at evening on the 14th, and that night of the 14th Christ was delivered up, and then crucified later that same day per the time the passover lamb was to be sacrificed. I also showed how those Matt.26 and Mark 14 Scripture do not point to what you're trying to make them point to. End of discussion.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
Then perhaps you will allow me a final comment.veteran said:
You stated in a previous post:
Notice above you are arguing that “the evening” refers to the beginning of the calendar day and are therefore insisting that the Lord's last supper was eaten at the beginning of Nisan 14.veteran said:
But then you turn around and argue this:
Now you’re arguing that “the evening” refers to the end of the day, before the next sunset, and that’s when you state Jesus was crucified and also when the Passover lambs were slain.veteran said:
And sometimes you make these two opposing statements in the same sentence:
So the real “riddle” here is why you define “evening” one way when it comes to the last supper but then you define “evening” another way when it comes to the Crucifixion and the Passover? That’s why you are coming up with two separate suppers when in fact it’s speaking of only one.veteran said:
The evening refers to the end of the day, not the beginning, and there is a wealth of Scriptural support as well as historical support but to simplify things let me leave you with this consideration:
Matthew 27:57, Mark 15:42, and Luke 23:54 all state that “when the evening was come” (the evening of the preparation day) Joseph and Nicodemus hurriedly took down the body of Jesus and laid him to rest. The reason for the hurry was that the Sabbath was about to commence when they would not be able to tend the Lord’s body and would have been forced to leave him on the Cross until after the Sabbath. So if “the evening” means the beginning of the day, as you are insisting in respect to the last supper, then there was no need for Joseph to hurry if the preparation day was only beginning, he would have had 24 hours before the Sabbath began. But the fact that they had to hurry because the Sabbath was about to begin means it was the end of the preparation day, not the beginning.
So your insistence that "the evening" of Nisan 14 when the Lord ate the last supper had to refer to the beginning of Nisan 14 is simply not correct. The evening referred to the end of Nisan 14, after the lambs were slain that afternoon, and the Passover Seder, which even in New Testament times was a ritual meal and lasted anywhere from 2 to 4 hours, was eaten just as the 14th Nisan closed and the 15th Nisan began.
It has been a pleasure meeting you and discussing all this, I only hope that something I have contributed to this debate might be of help in better understanding the last days and hours of our Lord’s Passion.
Maranatha ~
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Since it has again been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb, will know of some writing.
I have your answers for you. But they are too long to post in this thread. No one can discern the proper meaning of 3 days and 3 nights, and make it fit the scenario, because they do not have the proper tools with which to do it. I do. What are some of those tools? They have to know how to count days and nights. They must know when a Biblical day begins. They must know the Biblical definition of between the evenings. They must know that there are two separate and distinct feasts, both called unleavened, that begin in crucifixion week. They must know how to discern which of these two feast is being spoken of when unleavened is used. Knowing the Calendar of Scripture would be very helpful too, but it is not absolutely necessary. They must apply the dates from the Calendar of Scripture during crucifixion week, and not take today's Rabbinical Calendar and insert it into crucifixion week because the Rabbinical Calendar did not exist at that time in history - the same goes for the Gregorian calendar, it did not exist at that time in history. They need to know what "Seven Perfect Weeks" mean. They need to know that a Biblical day begins at sunrise. They need to have an understanding of "time markers" in Scripture - you will not find this in Bible college textbooks or on the internet, unless you happen to google my writings on time markers and find it. This is not necessarily an exhaustive list of those tools needed to learn the truth. Tell me where you would like to start. Three of my teachings, that I just mentioned in this post, are in this forum. If you seriously want an answer, it will require a lot of time and effort on your part. This is not microwave theology. This is the real thing.rstrats said:
zeke25,
re: "I have your answers for you. But they are too long to post in this thread. No one can discern the proper meaning of 3 days and 3 nights, and make it fit the scenario, because they do not have the proper tools with which to do it."
Thanks for the comment, but that is an issue for another topic. For the purpose of this one, I am only interested in what is requested in the OP.
re: "I have your answers for you. But they are too long to post in this thread. No one can discern the proper meaning of 3 days and 3 nights, and make it fit the scenario, because they do not have the proper tools with which to do it."
Thanks for the comment, but that is an issue for another topic. For the purpose of this one, I am only interested in what is requested in the OP.
Well, if I understand your OP correctly, I have an answer there too. Normally, when counting days in Scripture, they start with the day they are in and count it as day one. But that is not uniformly the case. Take a look at Luke 24:21 KJV, "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." These men were talking to Christ on Sunday and He was crucified on Thursday (according to that which the Bible teaches). If these men were counting Thursday, that would be day 1 and Sunday would be day 4. But these men were not counting that way. They were counting the way you and I would. The events of the crucifixion began on Thursday and they were counting, beginning Thursday and continuing for a one day period (24 hours) to Friday: this is day 1 for their count. Then from Friday to Saturday is day 2. Then from Saturday to Sunday is day 3. Is this what you are looking for?rstrats said:
zeke25,
re: "Is this what you are looking for?"
I'm afraid not. You are apparently a 5th day of the week crucifixion advocate and so do not think that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.
re: "Is this what you are looking for?"
I'm afraid not. You are apparently a 5th day of the week crucifixion advocate and so do not think that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.
I'm sorry it's not what you are looking, I tried.rstrats said:
I'd like to make some additional comments however.
There is no Jewish idiomatic language that allows 3 nights to mean 2 nights. If you find it, then check its source. If it comes out of Rabbinic Judaism, then it is a recent invention. Rabbinic Judaism did not exist during the time Christ walked the Earth.
If it comes from Christendom then it is nothing more that the errant musings of those who adhere to the gospel of man. The gospel of man tries to make the events of crucifixion week some how make sense without studying the entire Bible for the answers. They mistakenly think that they can figure it out by taking snapshots here and there. It doesn't work. My first post here provides more info.
I am only an advocate for that which the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches a Thursday, Abib 13 crucifixion. If that makes me a 5th day advocate, then I plead guilty. I would start a thread on this, but it is quite long and the attention span of those on blogs is generally unwilling or unable to maintain the distance.
Besides, if I put a lengthy teaching like this on here, I would be obligated to send Randor a supply of asprin. He likes things short and sweet. I can't afford that many asprins.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
But you are reading into their words things they did not say. They did not say that Sunday was the third day since Jesus was buried. They said that day was the third day since the chief priests and their rulers had delivered Jesus to be condemned to death and crucified. Jesus was arrested on Thursday night, after the Passover Seder, and in a night-hearing was condemned to death by the High Priest Caiaphas and a quorum of the Sanhedrin. The next morning (Friday morning 6:00 a.m.) they delivered Jesus to the Romans to be crucified. He was nailed to the cross at 9:00 a.m. and died at 3:00 p.m. on Friday.zeke25 said:
Sunday was the third day since "these things" were done, not the third day since Jesus was laid in the tomb.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Hello Pilgrimer, nice to hear from you.Pilgrimer said:
I realize you have been subjected to the standard teachings of crucifixion week for many years, most likely your entire Christian walk and possibly before. But the Bible is not in agreement with these canned teachings and never was.
Please do not take offense, but let me point out a couple of things that reveals your current mindset. You said “after the Passover Seder”. The Passover Seder did not exist at that time in history, therefore it adds confusion and becomes a stumbling block when trying to discern that which the Scriptures teach about crucifixion week. Please discard those thoughts and assign them to the teachings of Rabbinic Judaism (which also did not exist during Biblical times) and look at the Scriptures without that weight unnecessarily tied to your thoughts.
You also have been erroneously taught that the Last Supper was the Passover Feast. The Scriptures teach that the Last Supper was eaten two days prior to the day of Passover. And during the Last Supper, Yahoshua told His disciples that even though He wanted to eat the upcoming Passover with them, that it would not happen. Luke 22:15-18.
Also, you have probably been taught to use the current Rabbinic calendar and insert that backwards in time to crucifixion week. It doesn’t fit. That calendar did not exist at that time in history. One must use the Calendar of Scripture. That is what I use. It is not a Hebrew calendar even though it has many similarities. But the Hebrews did use this calendar during all Biblical times, Genesis to Revelation.
The Last Supper was on Wednesday Abib 12. The crucifixion was on Thursday Abib 13, and Passover (as always throughout all of history) was on Friday Abib 14.
There is so much more to say, but I have written about a ½ dozen teachings on this subject. If one wants to skip the preliminaries, the last teaching in the series is about 16,000 words long. In the meantime, if you are interested in challenging your lifelong beliefs, you could start with the first teaching in the series. It can be found in this forum under the thread “Between the Evenings” but a better copy is posted on the thread “Twilight versus Between the Evenings”. The second teaching is posted in the same forum under the thread labeled “A Day Begins At Sunrise”.
You appear to be a serious student of these events and devoted much time to them. I pray that you are willing to challenge that which you have been previously taught.
BTW, the 16000 words teaching, not posted here, is called “Crucifixion Week and the Harmony of the Gospels”. There are no contradictions between the 4 gospels regarding crucifixion week. The Bible is reliable and true. Many choose not to believe the Bible nor Christianity because they say, “Those stupid Christians cannot even count 3 days and 3 nights between the crucifixion and the resurrection and have it make any sense whatsoever. Why should I believe anything else they say?” These teachings were written as an answer to those naysayers (and it is the Jews that raise the biggest objections). But it turns out that these teachings turn Christendum, oops Christendom, on its head and those who are institutionalized (and even those who think they are not) cannot make the crossover. Only the Holy Ghost can quicken it to your spirit. I am only the messenger.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
Hello Zeke and thank you for the lengthy response. However, the assumptions you have made are not correct. My beliefs are not based on the teachings of others, canned or otherwise. They are the fruit of my own years of study of the Scripture as well as New Testament history and archaeology in which I have tried and tested many theories and held them to meticulous scrutiny and arrived at my own conclusions. That I find many points of agreement with historical orthodox Christianity is, for me, a happy outcome that lends itself toward a common faith and fellowship of saints, even if it is not required.
On your first point, the word "Seder" (first used in 1865) simply refers to the first of the 7 meals eaten during the week long festival of Passover and the one at which were eaten the Passover lambs that were sacrificed on the afternoon of Nisan 14. This was the meal Jesus sent his disciples into the city to prepare and which they all ate that evening. ("And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat..." Matthew 26:19-21 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover ... his disciples went forth ... and they made ready the passover." Mark 14:12, 16 "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And [Jesus] sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat ... and say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? ... and they made ready the passover." Luke 22:7-13
All the above makes it clear that Jesus send his disciples into the city to prepare the Passover on the afternoon (evening) of Nisan 14, Thursday afternoon in the year of the Lord's Passion, and that evening they sat down and ate, the last time Jesus would eat the Passover with his disciples until it was all fulfilled in God's Kingdom. It had not yet been fulfilled, not until the lamb of God was slain and his body and blood were offered up a sacrifice in the presence of the Father.
Secondly, I believe you are mistaken about the calender as well. The Jewish calendar is a luni-solar calendar, meaning it is based on the phases of the moon and then intercalated to correspond with the solar year. The lunar and solar phases and seasons have not changed since New Testament times. The only change to the Jewish calendar since the New Testament times has been that the intercalations that brought the lunar calendar into correlation with the solar year were made regular and premanent by Hillel II in the 4th century. And that is true of both the Ecclesiastical calendar and the Civil calendar.
No offense my brother, but you might be well served to question the teachings of those who so obviously misconstrue the Scripture as well as the historical facts.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
On your first point, the word "Seder" (first used in 1865) simply refers to the first of the 7 meals eaten during the week long festival of Passover and the one at which were eaten the Passover lambs that were sacrificed on the afternoon of Nisan 14. This was the meal Jesus sent his disciples into the city to prepare and which they all ate that evening. ("And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat..." Matthew 26:19-21 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover ... his disciples went forth ... and they made ready the passover." Mark 14:12, 16 "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And [Jesus] sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat ... and say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? ... and they made ready the passover." Luke 22:7-13
All the above makes it clear that Jesus send his disciples into the city to prepare the Passover on the afternoon (evening) of Nisan 14, Thursday afternoon in the year of the Lord's Passion, and that evening they sat down and ate, the last time Jesus would eat the Passover with his disciples until it was all fulfilled in God's Kingdom. It had not yet been fulfilled, not until the lamb of God was slain and his body and blood were offered up a sacrifice in the presence of the Father.
Secondly, I believe you are mistaken about the calender as well. The Jewish calendar is a luni-solar calendar, meaning it is based on the phases of the moon and then intercalated to correspond with the solar year. The lunar and solar phases and seasons have not changed since New Testament times. The only change to the Jewish calendar since the New Testament times has been that the intercalations that brought the lunar calendar into correlation with the solar year were made regular and premanent by Hillel II in the 4th century. And that is true of both the Ecclesiastical calendar and the Civil calendar.
No offense my brother, but you might be well served to question the teachings of those who so obviously misconstrue the Scripture as well as the historical facts.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Hello Pilgrimer,
Just a heads up. It's no accident that Zeke chose Luke's account of the last supper instead of one of the other Gospels. There is a textual variant associated with Luke 22:16. Some English versions such as the ESV, ASV, and RSV adopt the variant that leaves out the words "any more" or "again."
Luk 22:15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." ESV
That rendering makes it look like Jesus didn't eat. This makes absolutely no sense in light of the greater context of Luke's account as well as the other Gospel accounts. As you have already pointed out, Jesus has his disciples prepare the Passover and when the hour came they sat down and did eat. English versions such as the KJV RSVn NASV NIV and NEB utilize the only reading that makes sense of the entire passage.
15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” NIV
A Student's Guide To New Testament Variants
Luke 22:16:
TEXT: "I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled"
EVIDENCE: p75vid S A B L Theta f1 1241 one lat cop
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NEBn TEV
RANK: C
NOTES: "I shall not eat it again until it is fulfilled"
EVIDENCE: C D K P W X Delta Pi Psi f13 565 700 892 1010 Byz Lect most lat vg syr
TRANSLATIONS: KJV RSVn NASV NIV NEB
Just a heads up. It's no accident that Zeke chose Luke's account of the last supper instead of one of the other Gospels. There is a textual variant associated with Luke 22:16. Some English versions such as the ESV, ASV, and RSV adopt the variant that leaves out the words "any more" or "again."
Luk 22:15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." ESV
That rendering makes it look like Jesus didn't eat. This makes absolutely no sense in light of the greater context of Luke's account as well as the other Gospel accounts. As you have already pointed out, Jesus has his disciples prepare the Passover and when the hour came they sat down and did eat. English versions such as the KJV RSVn NASV NIV and NEB utilize the only reading that makes sense of the entire passage.
15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” NIV
A Student's Guide To New Testament Variants
Luke 22:16:
TEXT: "I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled"
EVIDENCE: p75vid S A B L Theta f1 1241 one lat cop
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NEBn TEV
RANK: C
NOTES: "I shall not eat it again until it is fulfilled"
EVIDENCE: C D K P W X Delta Pi Psi f13 565 700 892 1010 Byz Lect most lat vg syr
TRANSLATIONS: KJV RSVn NASV NIV NEB
Pilgrimer said: during the week long festival of Passover
Zeke: Passover was not a week long. Passover is a single day.
Pil said: This was the meal Jesus sent his disciples into the city to prepare and which they all ate that evening.
Zeke: Yes, the disciples were sent to prepare, but No, they did not eat it that evening. It was not the single day of Passover, it was Wednesday Abib/Nissan 12.
Pil: were made regular and premanent by Hillel II in the 4th century
Zeke: Hillel II is the beginning of the corruption of the Calendar of Scripture. He made changes that forever have corrupted the Calendar of Scripture.
Pil: No offense my brother, but you might be well served to question the teachings of those who so obviously misconstrue the Scripture as well as the historical facts.
Zeke: No offense taken. Besides I am already employing your advice and have been for years. And when I questioned all those teachings, I discarded them as unsatisfactory. That is why I teach what I do. It is my teachings, taken from no other man. The Bible is my authority, not men.
It appears that you will not familiarize yourself with the preliminary teachings that I have mentioned. Therefore, that which I will share with you next will be over your head. Learning is a step by step process, but you want to jump to the end and give us the blasphemous canned teachings. Why are they blasphemous? Because the Torah requires that unleavened bread be eaten at the Passover Feast. But leavened bread was eaten at the Last Supper. Those who teach that the Last Supper was the Passover Feast are accusing Christ of being a lawbreaker.
Nevertheless, I will attempt to explain those Scriptures you quoted above, but I will only address Matthew 26. That is way beyond too long, but necessary. I have addressed the other 3 gospels in my teaching, but no need to share them at this time. Besides, I have to see some evidence that you are serious about learning that which the Scriptures teach. If you are not, then we are wasting our time here.
16.a. The story that began in Matthew 26:2 shows that Yahoshua and His disciples separated for a time on that day, but then the disciples returned on that same day with a question. Matthew 26:17 KJV, "Now the first (Strong's G4413 protos) day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" The italicized words are not in the Textus Receptus and have been provided by the translators to clarify the meaning of this passage. These words are day and feast of. The word bread is not in the Textus Receptus either and should have been italicized. The danger of inserting words into the text that are not in the original document - in this case the Textus Receptus - is that this is when the translators have the greatest tendency to interpret the text rather than providing a pure translation. For a translator to become an interpreter is the greatest scholarly offense that can possibly be committed: A translator blundering into interpreting destroys his credibility as an unbiased translator. This is exactly what the King James translators have done. They have interpreted this verse and given us a totally corrupt translation. Parallel passages are Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7, and John 13:1-2.
16.b. Without the four manufactured and unnecessary words the meaning of the passage is not only quite different, but the meaning has completely reversed. Please remember that which we mentioned in section I (paragraph 3a), the Bible teaches that there are two separate and different feasts referred to as unleavened: Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Furthermore, we must determine from the context which of the two unleavens is being spoken of. The King James translators have blurred our ability to make a correct determination by adding the words feasts of prior to the word unleavened. And they have completed the corruption of this verse by adding the word bread after the word unleavened. We are being told by these translators, turned interpreters, that Matthew 26:17 is speaking to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is not true. In fact, now the verse contradicts itself because near the end of the verse the word "Passover" is used, which identifies that it is really the day of Passover that is being addressed, not the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
16.c. Here is what the verse says without the added words: "Now the first of the unleavened the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" With this correct wording from the Textus Receptus we can discern that the unleavened being addressed in this verse is the day of Passover, and we can see that this verse no longer contradicts itself.
16.d. Let us look at Matthew 26:17 in some other translations. Biblegateway.com, at the time of this writing, had 46 translations available. Twenty-four of these translations have corrupted this verse, twenty-two have not corrupted this verse. I have an additional translation that has not corrupted this verse either, which brings the count up to twenty-three. So, the count is 24 corrupted and 23 uncorrupted. But, of course, our doctrine is not determined by counting noses. I felt it was important to point out that translators turned interpreters of this verse are in a tug of war with the truth at your expense.
16.e. The casual reader of this Scripture needs to understand that preparing the Passover is nothing like mom saying, "Hey, Billie Boy would you like a peanut butter sandwich for lunch." And to suggest that the Passover Feast is that simple is to invite ridicule. How many days does mom take to prepare Thanksgiving dinner? You better believe it is not a single day. She has to plan, shop, prepare, cook, and so on. Imagine if she had to find a house to rent as well, in order to prepare and serve this big momentous celebration. Do you really think the disciples were asking their question and expecting to fulfill all the preparations in one afternoon? If you do, then stop it! Get out of the box*. Do not think like that any more!
*Note. Interestingly, under the unction of the Holy Ghost, I started the box thing over twenty-five years ago, around 1985-6. It was strange to see it starting to make the mainstream circa 2005. It’s in commercials, it’s on the news, it’s in the workplace and marketplace. It was originally employed as a witnessing example. It originally was used to help people be set free to come to know the one true God and His Son that sacrificed His Blood and Life so that man could be reconciled to Him. Now it is used by the secular world to sell tacos.
16.f. In Matthew 26:17, the word first (Strong's G4413 protos) in Greek is prota. The translators added the word day after the word first. Just what is the meaning of "Now the first of the unleavened"? This is an extremely important phrase and discerning its meaning removes the confusion about which day of crucifixion week is being spoken of. Passover is only one day (please ask for our teaching Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread). How can there be a first when Passover is an only? As we showed above in Exodus 12:3, there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover. In fact, the Greek word protos translated into the English word first means the first day in a series of days, it does not mean a single day. Therefore, Now the first of the unleavened means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover. In other words, this day, that this phrase was written, was absolutely not the day of Passover, it was several days prior to the day of Passover.
16.g. Therefore, it follows that this means that the Passover Feast which the disciples were instructed to prepare was not the very day in which this phrase was written. In other words, the disciples received their instructions to prepare the Passover Feast several days prior or before the actual day of Passover. In no manner, shape, or form was Yahoshua expecting His disciples to accomplish the preparation and produce the Passover in one afternoon. Besides, a lamb would need to be sacrificed at the Temple that afternoon and the roasting begun in order for it to be ready to eat at the feast which would begin after sundown. Deuteronomy 16:5-6 KJV, "5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which [Yahowah] thy God giveth thee: 6 But at the place which [Yahowah] thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt." Do you really think that the priests would accommodate Yahoshua and sacrifice a Passover lamb for them in the Temple two days prior to Passover contrary to the law? They were busy plotting to kill Yahoshua, they certainly were not going to sacrifice a lamb for Him. There is no indication that any lamb was involved at all. And of course there would not be. Because, our Lord and Savior would be the Passover Lamb this year. And He knew this even though no one else did at the time. By tomorrow afternoon, no substitutionary Passover lamb would ever be needed or accepted by God again for the remainder of history.
16.h. Now that it has been shown that Matthew 26:17 does not say that the Passover will be sacrificed and the Passover Feast eaten on the day the disciples received the instructions to prepare the Passover, I will add some additional information. Protos can also be translated as before or preceding. If we were to replace the word first in this Scripture and substitute the word before or preceding then the Scripture would read as, "Now before (or preceding) the unleavened the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" This rendering agrees with John 13:1-2. This rendering also makes it clear that the preparing of the Passover was not going to be completed that very day - the day the disciples received their instructions.
16.i. With the proper understanding of Matthew 26:17 now stated, the understanding of Matthew 26:18-19 is possible. Matthew 26:18-19 KJV, "18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep (Strong's 4160 poieo) the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as [Yahoshua] had appointed them; and they made ready the passover." Once again, this does not mean that the Passover preparations were completed that very day. We know that Passover is two days away, and that a couple of days were available for them to complete the preparations. Also, poieo translated as keep is not the best translation for our century. Since we know that Yahoshua will not actually keep the Passover this year, the better word to have used would be make or prepare; and some translations do use these words instead of keep.
16.j. With the proper understanding of Matthew 26:17-19, we can now continue with Matthew 26:20 KJV, "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve." This is the same day that the disciples began preparations for Passover and now it was night. We know it was night because "even was come" is a time marker that shows us that the sun had set. They all sat down to eat the Last Supper on Wednesday Abib 12. Therefore, the following day was the last preparation day and crucifixion day on Thursday Abib 13, and the next day after that was Passover on Friday Abib 14. Please read the rest of chapter 26 to satisfy yourself that this was indeed the Last Supper. If this was the day of Passover, then a lamb would have been required to be sacrificed sometime between noon and sundown and the roasting of this lamb would have had to begun. You cannot have a Passover Feast without first having a Passover sacrifice. There is no evidence that a Passover lamb was sacrificed and prepared that afternoon; however, there is evidence that there would be sacrifices two days later.
John 18:28 KJV "Then led they [Yahoshua] from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover." If Yahoshua had eaten the Passover Feast the night before, then there would be no Passover Feast for the Pharisees to eat in the future. Everyone, by law, eats the Passover at the same time. There is no allowance for some to eat it one night and some Jews to eat it the next day. The Last Supper was not the Passover Feast, therefore, the eating of it was still in the future.
John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the [stakes] on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
16.k. Besides, the focus of Passover is not the feast. The focus of Passover is the sacrifice. How can the story resume with them sitting down to a feast and the whole ceremony of the sacrifice is not even addressed at all? It was not addressed, because it was not due until Friday Abib 14 and it was still Wednesday Abib 12.
Zeke: Passover was not a week long. Passover is a single day.
Pil said: This was the meal Jesus sent his disciples into the city to prepare and which they all ate that evening.
Zeke: Yes, the disciples were sent to prepare, but No, they did not eat it that evening. It was not the single day of Passover, it was Wednesday Abib/Nissan 12.
Pil: were made regular and premanent by Hillel II in the 4th century
Zeke: Hillel II is the beginning of the corruption of the Calendar of Scripture. He made changes that forever have corrupted the Calendar of Scripture.
Pil: No offense my brother, but you might be well served to question the teachings of those who so obviously misconstrue the Scripture as well as the historical facts.
Zeke: No offense taken. Besides I am already employing your advice and have been for years. And when I questioned all those teachings, I discarded them as unsatisfactory. That is why I teach what I do. It is my teachings, taken from no other man. The Bible is my authority, not men.
It appears that you will not familiarize yourself with the preliminary teachings that I have mentioned. Therefore, that which I will share with you next will be over your head. Learning is a step by step process, but you want to jump to the end and give us the blasphemous canned teachings. Why are they blasphemous? Because the Torah requires that unleavened bread be eaten at the Passover Feast. But leavened bread was eaten at the Last Supper. Those who teach that the Last Supper was the Passover Feast are accusing Christ of being a lawbreaker.
Nevertheless, I will attempt to explain those Scriptures you quoted above, but I will only address Matthew 26. That is way beyond too long, but necessary. I have addressed the other 3 gospels in my teaching, but no need to share them at this time. Besides, I have to see some evidence that you are serious about learning that which the Scriptures teach. If you are not, then we are wasting our time here.
16.a. The story that began in Matthew 26:2 shows that Yahoshua and His disciples separated for a time on that day, but then the disciples returned on that same day with a question. Matthew 26:17 KJV, "Now the first (Strong's G4413 protos) day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" The italicized words are not in the Textus Receptus and have been provided by the translators to clarify the meaning of this passage. These words are day and feast of. The word bread is not in the Textus Receptus either and should have been italicized. The danger of inserting words into the text that are not in the original document - in this case the Textus Receptus - is that this is when the translators have the greatest tendency to interpret the text rather than providing a pure translation. For a translator to become an interpreter is the greatest scholarly offense that can possibly be committed: A translator blundering into interpreting destroys his credibility as an unbiased translator. This is exactly what the King James translators have done. They have interpreted this verse and given us a totally corrupt translation. Parallel passages are Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7, and John 13:1-2.
16.b. Without the four manufactured and unnecessary words the meaning of the passage is not only quite different, but the meaning has completely reversed. Please remember that which we mentioned in section I (paragraph 3a), the Bible teaches that there are two separate and different feasts referred to as unleavened: Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Furthermore, we must determine from the context which of the two unleavens is being spoken of. The King James translators have blurred our ability to make a correct determination by adding the words feasts of prior to the word unleavened. And they have completed the corruption of this verse by adding the word bread after the word unleavened. We are being told by these translators, turned interpreters, that Matthew 26:17 is speaking to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is not true. In fact, now the verse contradicts itself because near the end of the verse the word "Passover" is used, which identifies that it is really the day of Passover that is being addressed, not the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
16.c. Here is what the verse says without the added words: "Now the first of the unleavened the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" With this correct wording from the Textus Receptus we can discern that the unleavened being addressed in this verse is the day of Passover, and we can see that this verse no longer contradicts itself.
16.d. Let us look at Matthew 26:17 in some other translations. Biblegateway.com, at the time of this writing, had 46 translations available. Twenty-four of these translations have corrupted this verse, twenty-two have not corrupted this verse. I have an additional translation that has not corrupted this verse either, which brings the count up to twenty-three. So, the count is 24 corrupted and 23 uncorrupted. But, of course, our doctrine is not determined by counting noses. I felt it was important to point out that translators turned interpreters of this verse are in a tug of war with the truth at your expense.
16.e. The casual reader of this Scripture needs to understand that preparing the Passover is nothing like mom saying, "Hey, Billie Boy would you like a peanut butter sandwich for lunch." And to suggest that the Passover Feast is that simple is to invite ridicule. How many days does mom take to prepare Thanksgiving dinner? You better believe it is not a single day. She has to plan, shop, prepare, cook, and so on. Imagine if she had to find a house to rent as well, in order to prepare and serve this big momentous celebration. Do you really think the disciples were asking their question and expecting to fulfill all the preparations in one afternoon? If you do, then stop it! Get out of the box*. Do not think like that any more!
*Note. Interestingly, under the unction of the Holy Ghost, I started the box thing over twenty-five years ago, around 1985-6. It was strange to see it starting to make the mainstream circa 2005. It’s in commercials, it’s on the news, it’s in the workplace and marketplace. It was originally employed as a witnessing example. It originally was used to help people be set free to come to know the one true God and His Son that sacrificed His Blood and Life so that man could be reconciled to Him. Now it is used by the secular world to sell tacos.
16.f. In Matthew 26:17, the word first (Strong's G4413 protos) in Greek is prota. The translators added the word day after the word first. Just what is the meaning of "Now the first of the unleavened"? This is an extremely important phrase and discerning its meaning removes the confusion about which day of crucifixion week is being spoken of. Passover is only one day (please ask for our teaching Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread). How can there be a first when Passover is an only? As we showed above in Exodus 12:3, there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover. In fact, the Greek word protos translated into the English word first means the first day in a series of days, it does not mean a single day. Therefore, Now the first of the unleavened means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover. In other words, this day, that this phrase was written, was absolutely not the day of Passover, it was several days prior to the day of Passover.
16.g. Therefore, it follows that this means that the Passover Feast which the disciples were instructed to prepare was not the very day in which this phrase was written. In other words, the disciples received their instructions to prepare the Passover Feast several days prior or before the actual day of Passover. In no manner, shape, or form was Yahoshua expecting His disciples to accomplish the preparation and produce the Passover in one afternoon. Besides, a lamb would need to be sacrificed at the Temple that afternoon and the roasting begun in order for it to be ready to eat at the feast which would begin after sundown. Deuteronomy 16:5-6 KJV, "5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which [Yahowah] thy God giveth thee: 6 But at the place which [Yahowah] thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt." Do you really think that the priests would accommodate Yahoshua and sacrifice a Passover lamb for them in the Temple two days prior to Passover contrary to the law? They were busy plotting to kill Yahoshua, they certainly were not going to sacrifice a lamb for Him. There is no indication that any lamb was involved at all. And of course there would not be. Because, our Lord and Savior would be the Passover Lamb this year. And He knew this even though no one else did at the time. By tomorrow afternoon, no substitutionary Passover lamb would ever be needed or accepted by God again for the remainder of history.
16.h. Now that it has been shown that Matthew 26:17 does not say that the Passover will be sacrificed and the Passover Feast eaten on the day the disciples received the instructions to prepare the Passover, I will add some additional information. Protos can also be translated as before or preceding. If we were to replace the word first in this Scripture and substitute the word before or preceding then the Scripture would read as, "Now before (or preceding) the unleavened the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" This rendering agrees with John 13:1-2. This rendering also makes it clear that the preparing of the Passover was not going to be completed that very day - the day the disciples received their instructions.
16.i. With the proper understanding of Matthew 26:17 now stated, the understanding of Matthew 26:18-19 is possible. Matthew 26:18-19 KJV, "18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep (Strong's 4160 poieo) the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as [Yahoshua] had appointed them; and they made ready the passover." Once again, this does not mean that the Passover preparations were completed that very day. We know that Passover is two days away, and that a couple of days were available for them to complete the preparations. Also, poieo translated as keep is not the best translation for our century. Since we know that Yahoshua will not actually keep the Passover this year, the better word to have used would be make or prepare; and some translations do use these words instead of keep.
16.j. With the proper understanding of Matthew 26:17-19, we can now continue with Matthew 26:20 KJV, "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve." This is the same day that the disciples began preparations for Passover and now it was night. We know it was night because "even was come" is a time marker that shows us that the sun had set. They all sat down to eat the Last Supper on Wednesday Abib 12. Therefore, the following day was the last preparation day and crucifixion day on Thursday Abib 13, and the next day after that was Passover on Friday Abib 14. Please read the rest of chapter 26 to satisfy yourself that this was indeed the Last Supper. If this was the day of Passover, then a lamb would have been required to be sacrificed sometime between noon and sundown and the roasting of this lamb would have had to begun. You cannot have a Passover Feast without first having a Passover sacrifice. There is no evidence that a Passover lamb was sacrificed and prepared that afternoon; however, there is evidence that there would be sacrifices two days later.
John 18:28 KJV "Then led they [Yahoshua] from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover." If Yahoshua had eaten the Passover Feast the night before, then there would be no Passover Feast for the Pharisees to eat in the future. Everyone, by law, eats the Passover at the same time. There is no allowance for some to eat it one night and some Jews to eat it the next day. The Last Supper was not the Passover Feast, therefore, the eating of it was still in the future.
John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the [stakes] on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
16.k. Besides, the focus of Passover is not the feast. The focus of Passover is the sacrifice. How can the story resume with them sitting down to a feast and the whole ceremony of the sacrifice is not even addressed at all? It was not addressed, because it was not due until Friday Abib 14 and it was still Wednesday Abib 12.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
Thank you for that insight Nomad but I'm afraid for the ESV text to be accurate it must include "ouketi" in the translation, which it does not. Ouketi is from "ou" (no, never) and "keti" (henceforth, hereafter). Therefore a correct rendering would be:Nomad said:
Luk 22:16 For I tell you I will "not henceforth, hereafter" eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Luke 22:15-16 word for word from the Textus Receptus:
And He said to them, With desire I desired this - passover to eat with you, before the Me to suffer. I say For to you that never in any way I eat of it, until when it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
The other 3 gospels agree with Luke. It is just not easy to discern their renditions except that the entire word of God be considered. We are not to pit Scripture against Scripture, we are to add Scripture to Scripture until God reveals the full picture to us.
And He said to them, With desire I desired this - passover to eat with you, before the Me to suffer. I say For to you that never in any way I eat of it, until when it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
The other 3 gospels agree with Luke. It is just not easy to discern their renditions except that the entire word of God be considered. We are not to pit Scripture against Scripture, we are to add Scripture to Scripture until God reveals the full picture to us.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
The word "never" in Greek is "oudepote." The word used in this passage is "ouketi" which comes from "ou" (no, never) and "keti" (henceforth, hereafter).zeke25 said:
Look it up.
I'll need some time to go through your other post and respond, and will probably have to take it one issue at a time. For everyone's benefit try to keep your posts to only one or two points.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Just scanning your post I see a serious error you have made. The Passover was not a feast separate and distinct from Unleavened Bread! Technically, the Passover was a sacrifice, offered on the afternoon of Nisan 14. Then that evening, at sunset, the Passover lamb that had been sacrificed that afternoon was eaten along with unleavened bread and bitter herbs which was the first day of unleavened bread. And for 7 days the Jews ate unleavened bread.
Think back to the original Passover at the Exodus. The Jews sacrificed the lambs on the afternoon of Nisan 14. Then they painted their doorposts and lintels with the blood. That night they ate the Passover lambs along with unleavened bread. The reason the bread was unleavened was that they had packed up all their belongings, including their kneading troughs, and did not have time to let their bread rise. They ate standing, with their shoes on, and their loins girded, and their belongings packed up ready to leave. That night the Destroyer passed through the land and slew all the firstborn of man and beast ... except those upon whose homes was the sign of the blood of the lamb. In the middle of the night Pharoah rose up , and all Egypt, and commanded that Moses take the Israelites and leave. That all happened the night of Nisan 15. And that night, the night the Passover lambs were eaten and the first night they ate unleavened bread, was remembered generation after generation, by this ceremonial meal. And the children were instructed to ask why that night was unlike any other night, and the story of the Passover would be retold and retold how on that very night God had delivered them from Egypt.
But the Jews did not eat the Passover again until they were settled in the land, and then they ate the Passover "at leisure," and "reclining", "as befitted free men. The Passover Seder (the first meal of unleavened bread) lasted 2 to 3 hours. This was the meal Jesus and the disciples ate, Jesus' last supper.
But I'll address your particulars in a separate post.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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