ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

terry said:

Veteran Wrote: " The specific point of a Pre-Wrath belief is that of a rapture of the Church to Heaven prior to the event of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the earth. The main problem with that idea is how the change at the twinkling of an eye event per Paul is to occur on the day of Christ's return, which is "day of the Lord" timing. That means a rapture is not possible until that "day of the Lord" timing, which is when our Lord Jesus returns "as a thief in the night," and also is when His wrath is poured out upon the earth. So the Pre-Wrath position is jumping the gun slightly, while the Pre-Trib position is jumping the gun way too early. "

As a Believer in "Pre Wrath" maybe I should first explain what I consider that wrath to be. The wrath requiring protection is Satan making the Mark of the Beast manditory. Is it a rapture of the Church? No... It is the rapture of those that could not deny the Beast's Mark for whatever reason. Is this rapture prior to God'scup of wrath... a very little undecided... but most likely not of consideration of God's wrath at all, only Satan's wrath as per the Beast's Mark. An so, the twinkling of an eye event creates no disturbance with any movement of God. It rains on the just and unjust alike... explains why God's wrath is not a reason for the rapture, Who the rapture is used explains why it is not the church.

Other, perhaps All Other pre-wrathers may fall into the category as you spelled out Veteran, I however, do not follow their beliefs and do not fall into their gategories. To be clear... I am not a pre-trib rapture believer either nor a post-trib believer.

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What I described is the main belief of the Pre-Wrath theology, the idea of Christ's coming and a rapture prior to His pouring out His wrath upon the earth on the "day of the Lord". That position involves belief of Christ's coming prior to the end of the tribulation.

Based on what you're saying about it shows you're confused about that theological position you claim to heed.

veteran said:

What I described is the main belief of the Pre-Wrath theology, the idea of Christ's coming and a rapture prior to His pouring out His wrath upon the earth on the "day of the Lord". That position involves belief of Christ's coming prior to the end of the tribulation.

Based on what you're saying about it shows you're confused about that theological position you claim to heed.

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No it doesn't mean Christ comes before the end of the Tribulation.

The Great Tribulation, begun at the midpoint talking image abomination because of two laws (mark of the beast/worship) is cut short by the arrival of the Day of the Lord.

The Great Tribulation is not the same as the one 'seven.' You run the Great Tribulation the length of the rest of the one 'seven' and that is not shortening it at all.

Rescue - then - Wrath: that is the example of Noah and Lot.
The Great Multitude arrive in the Temple of God in Heaven - and then - the Trumpets sound out God's Wrath as the Scroll is opened with the breaking of the seventh Seal.
In the parallel account to that, the Harvest of Saints comes from Jesus in the clouds in Rev 14 - and then - Wrath goes forth, with the Bowl Judgments being last, and in that account, they lead up to Armageddon.

Pre-Wrath preserves the order given in the Bible for end-prophecy.
Pre-Wrath aligns with the Olivet Discourse that the Elect, the believing Church, goes through the Great Tribulation.
Pre-Wrath has nothing to do with Darby or Pre-Trib.


Besides the fact that you misconstrue the shortening of the Great Tribulation veteran, you run the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls concurrently. That is an egregious error in Bible reading, and turns the Word of God all around just to suit your eschatology because of "when" the Great Multitude show up in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

teleiosis said:

Pre-Wrath preserves the order given in the Bible for end-prophecy.
Pre-Wrath aligns with the Olivet Discourse that the Elect, the believing Church, goes through the Great Tribulation.
Pre-Wrath has nothing to do with Darby or Pre-Trib.

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And Pre-Wrath ADDS a resurrection before the first resurrection,which isn't written in the Bible.

No, the Rapture is not the first Resurrection.

You have four groups of people; the first three are done on the Day of the Lord.
The first to be called are the Firstfruits: the 144,000. According to Isaiah, they come from all over the world. In Revelation, they are believers: i.e. spiritual Israel - from a listing of tribes unlike any other in the Bible, and I think John would know his tribles...
The largest is the dead in Christ. These are normal souls, Old and New Testament that believe on the Lord to save them.
The next caught up, literally, are the few remaining Elect who survive the Great Tribulation.

As for the fourth group:
But the First Resurrection is not complete at the sixth Seal. The fifth Seal Martyrs await the completion of their number. As the Two Witnesses remain on the earth calling down parts of God's Wrath - the number of martyrs are not complete until they are called up at the end of the one 'seven.' And true to form, after the one 'seven' is over then the fifth Seal martyrs are "made alive." Then and only then does John pronounce the First Resurrection as a completed fact.

We have 2 resurrections in the Bible of a large mass of people.

The first resurrection happens at the second coming of the Lord (the rapture)

The second resurrection happens after the millennial reign (the great white throne judgement)

Any other resurrection of this type (masses of people) are added by the pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath to make their theory sound feasible. The bad news is that the Bible warns us not to add to the word of God.

The First Resurrection is only for the Righteous (Living).

That resurrection is more complicated than you have it in your eschatology. The Rapture most certainly is part of the First Resurrection. But it comes on the heels of the resurrection of the Dead in Christ - yet still doesn't include the martyrs covered under the fifth Seal who have a special dispensation, and a special clause: their number is not yet complete at the time of the Day of the Lord.

Ok, what is bsing considered the ressurections? Jesus was resurrected - ( it was not a mass ressurecttion ) is that the first ressurection? Then what about others risen from the dead before Jesus was risen? Why would they not count? Notice I used the word " dead. " But in the Rapture, no one is risen from the dead? In Tribulations the dead are risen... thus a ressurectioin here? If these dead are considered a ressurection then so too must every event when one is dead and is brought back to life by any of the prophets as well as those ressurected by Jesus. But why is this being linked to a rapture? Lazarus was ressurected before Jesus was ressurected, yet he was not the only one. So how many ressurections have already taken place? And how many being brought back to life are to be considered ressurected? For 1 Jesus was ressurected so the minimal number must be - 1. How does that mean another 1 is not valid or 2 or 3 ...or etc is not valid?

Who here has the right to claim what - other than the ressurection of Jesus or the ressurection off those dead during Tribulation.... has the right to decide what constitutes a ressurection and what does not? I do not consider the rapture a ressurection. but rather a harvesting of certain people for a certain reason. For the Rapture to be considered a ressurection then those Raptured must first die before their ascention, although viable... so to is a Rapture without death first. By the way... A Rapture without death first means when it was written that all men are appointed to die the first death is seemingly clearly defined. Is it possible our understaing of this "appointed to die" has been mis-inderstood in some manner? Unless those Raptured will be placed back on the earth after the smoke from Arrmageddon clears and then, they die the first death, or they simply miss their appointment.

I am not confused Veteran, but I am certainly considering certain events as not being able to be linked to events of a different natture. I am trying to avoid putting words in God's mouth, so my " considerations " come with apprehension so I try with my best understanding to voice my view and yet remain open minded. Surley when I write an opinion that allows my mind to remain open it also allows an opening for deception, but if one considers a certain train of thought with a closed mind and is, in fact, wrong...then deception has, as a fact, been achieved.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,with the voice of the arch angle and the triumph of God and the DEAD WILL RISE FIRST then we which are alive and remain shall be called up to join them in the air. Sounds like a (Massive amount of people ) resurrection to me,and this happens at the second coming.Rev 20

teleiosis said:

No it doesn't mean Christ comes before the end of the Tribulation.

The Great Tribulation, begun at the midpoint talking image abomination because of two laws (mark of the beast/worship) is cut short by the arrival of the Day of the Lord.

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The Pre-Wrath position is exactly... how I explained it. It cannot hide the fact that it is pushing the idea of Christ's coming and a rapture PRIOR to the end of the tribulation, even with that shortened idea from Matt.24.

When our Lord Jesus said the time of "great tribulation" would be shortened for His elect's sake, that means the END of that tribulation period, for that's exactly what His second coming is to do with the "day of the Lord" events on the 'day' of His return "as a thief". His return "as a thief" per Paul in 1 Thess.5 is not to take us by surprise "as a thief". That metaphor of surprise is upon the wicked; His coming on that day will take 'them' by surprise, for those won't be looking for His coming. And that's exactly how Apostle Paul taught that idea, as also our Lord Jesus in Matt.24.

teleiosis said:

The Great Tribulation is not the same as the one 'seven.' You run the Great Tribulation the length of the rest of the one 'seven' and that is not shortening it at all.

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The final 'seven' ("one week") of Daniel is... the whole two periods of 1260 days. The latter half of 1260 days is the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught. That is when the "another beast" and his host are to reign on earth, and it is to be cut short. When Jesus returns, THAT ends the reign of the coming 'pseudo-Christ'. The Pre-Wrath position instead has the reign of the 'pseudo-Christ' continuing, while Scripture shows its end with Christ's coming (specifically in 2 Thess.2).

teleiosis said:

Rescue - then - Wrath: that is the example of Noah and Lot.
The Great Multitude arrive in the Temple of God in Heaven - and then - the Trumpets sound out God's Wrath as the Scroll is opened with the breaking of the seventh Seal.
In the parallel account to that, the Harvest of Saints comes from Jesus in the clouds in Rev 14 - and then - Wrath goes forth, with the Bowl Judgments being last, and in that account, they lead up to Armageddon.

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That's not a rescue, it's an escape idea, very much like the Pre-Trib Rapture idea, which is where the Pre-Wrath idea actually originates from. Per the Rev.16:15 verse ON the 6th Vial with Christ STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", that reveals His coming on the final 7th Vial. That Scripture fact cannot be refuted.

teleiosis said:

Pre-Wrath preserves the order given in the Bible for end-prophecy.

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Not true. It goes against the order given in God's Word The Bible. Christ is still giving warning to His Church on the 6th Vial per the Rev.16:15 verse, and it's in prep for the battle of Armageddon that happens on the 7th Vial, which is about the "day of the Lord" events. The Pre-Wrath theory goes AGAINST those Scriptures, and there are many, many Scriptures about those "day of the Lord" events. So go lie to someone else that doesn't know better who isn't studied.

teleiosis said:

Pre-Wrath aligns with the Olivet Discourse that the Elect, the believing Church, goes through the Great Tribulation.
Pre-Wrath has nothing to do with Darby or Pre-Trib.

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No, it does not. And you've already shown how it does not by proclaiming a 'rapture' PRIOR to the "day of the Lord" events. Per both Paul and Peter, Christ's coming "as a thief" is timed with the "day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). That's what Christ was showing in Rev.16:15 also. Van Kampen and Rosenthal were the main originators of the Pre-Wrath view; it's a modern invention of men's doctrines.

teleiosis said:

Besides the fact that you misconstrue the shortening of the Great Tribulation veteran, you run the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls concurrently. That is an egregious error in Bible reading, and turns the Word of God all around just to suit your eschatology because of "when" the Great Multitude show up in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

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I have miscontrued nothing. You cannot get past Christ's declaration of Rev.16:15 of His warning the Church on earth of His coming "as a thief". If you tried, then you would be going directy against the timing Apostles Paul and Peter gave.

You're just another one who has left the Scripture as written, and instead have chosen to follow doctrines of men.

teleiosis said:

No, the Rapture is not the first Resurrection.

You have four groups of people; the first three are done on the Day of the Lord.
The first to be called are the Firstfruits: the 144,000. According to Isaiah, they come from all over the world. In Revelation, they are believers: i.e. spiritual Israel - from a listing of tribes unlike any other in the Bible, and I think John would know his tribles...
The largest is the dead in Christ. These are normal souls, Old and New Testament that believe on the Lord to save them.
The next caught up, literally, are the few remaining Elect who survive the Great Tribulation.

As for the fourth group:
But the First Resurrection is not complete at the sixth Seal. The fifth Seal Martyrs await the completion of their number. As the Two Witnesses remain on the earth calling down parts of God's Wrath - the number of martyrs are not complete until they are called up at the end of the one 'seven.' And true to form, after the one 'seven' is over then the fifth Seal martyrs are "made alive." Then and only then does John pronounce the First Resurrection as a completed fact.

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That's a false MULTIPLE RAPTURE idea. It is TOTALY out of align with God's Word.

There is ony ONE time of Christ's coming and GATHERING of His Church. It is on the "last trump" Apostle Paul mentioned, which also is the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 and the 7th Vial of Rev.16, and the 6th Seal of Rev.6. That's when His cup of wrath is poured out as written...


SIXTH SEAL
Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

7TH TRUMPET
Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

7TH VIAL
Rev 16:19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(KJV)

teleiosis said:

The First Resurrection is only for the Righteous (Living).

That resurrection is more complicated than you have it in your eschatology. The Rapture most certainly is part of the First Resurrection. But it comes on the heels of the resurrection of the Dead in Christ - yet still doesn't include the martyrs covered under the fifth Seal who have a special dispensation, and a special clause: their number is not yet complete at the time of the Day of the Lord.

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The first resurrection is for all the saints who have died after the resurrection of the Lord through out time,until the second coming of the Lord. The martyrs will be raised at the same resurrection as everybody else,because there's only 1 first resurrection. The second resurrection is for people that die without excepting the Lord as their personal saviour,to be cast into everlasting torment. PLUS the people that except the Lord as their saviour during the millennial reign,these people will receive their rewards at the second resurrection and join the Lord in eternity

Trekson said:

Hi Vet, As one opposed to pre-wrath you are in no position to inform what pre-wrath theology entails. You surmise a lot but are way less than accurate. The difference between pre-wrath and your view is simple. Pre-wrath follows the flow of scripture while your view is a bunch of guesswork based on inaccurate interpretations of scriptures, compounded by severe misunderstandings of symbolism and typlogy added to a stubborn religious pride that only you have rec'd the "truth". It constantly surprises me that people take you seriously.

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Hot Air.

That's an ad hominen attack, an automatic loss in any debate because of leaving the argument and instead reverting to personal attack.

ENOCH2010 said:

The first resurrection is for all the saints who have died after the resurrection of the Lord through out time,until the second coming of the Lord. The martyrs will be raised at the same resurrection as everybody else,because there's only 1 first resurrection. The second resurrection is for people that die without excepting the Lord as their personal saviour,to be cast into everlasting torment. PLUS the people that except the Lord as their saviour during the millennial reign,these people will receive their rewards at the second resurrection and join the Lord in eternity

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The second resurrection of Rev.20 is inferred. It is suggested because of the ordinal "first" in the "first resurrection" phrase.

When our Lord Jesus returns, the resurrection will include both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation", per the John 5:28-29 Scripture.

What does that mean?

Simple. It means ALL those who have died will be resurrected on that 'day' of Christ's return, both the just and the unjust.

There are several Scriptures that reveal the wicked will exist throughout Christ's thousand years reign (Zech.14:16-19; Ezek.44:10-26; Rev.3:9; Matt.25:31-33; Rev.22:14-15; Acts 24:15).


1 Cor 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)

We are ALL going to be changed. And that means we all are going to be in resurrection type bodies, including the wicked.

That is why the ONLY type death remaining after Christ's coming is the "second death" (casting into the lake of fire at the end of His thousand years reign).

The failure to understand this is because of men's ideas about 'their' requirement of flesh being raised in order to be alive.

The "second death" is not a death of the flesh; it is the death of one's spirit and soul. After Christ's return there will be no more flesh death. The things of this present world will be past.

Like Apostle Paul said, "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Cor.15:44).

veteran said:

Hot Air.

That's an ad hominen attack, an automatic loss in any debate because of leaving the argument and instead reverting to personal attack.



The second resurrection of Rev.20 is inferred. It is suggested because of the ordinal "first" in the "first resurrection" phrase.

When our Lord Jesus returns, the resurrection will include both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation", per the John 5:28-29 Scripture.

What does that mean?

Simple. It means ALL those who have died will be resurrected on that 'day' of Christ's return, both the just and the unjust.

There are several Scriptures that reveal the wicked will exist throughout Christ's thousand years reign (Zech.14:16-19; Ezek.44:10-26; Rev.3:9; Matt.25:31-33; Rev.22:14-15; Acts 24:15).


1 Cor 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)

We are ALL going to be changed. And that means we all are going to be in resurrection type bodies, including the wicked.

That is why the ONLY type death remaining after Christ's coming is the "second death" (casting into the lake of fire at the end of His thousand years reign).

The failure to understand this is because of men's ideas about 'their' requirement of flesh being raised in order to be alive.

The "second death" is not a death of the flesh; it is the death of one's spirit and soul. After Christ's return there will be no more flesh death. The things of this present world will be past.

Like Apostle Paul said, "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Cor.15:44).

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I have given that some thought veteran,if the second resurrection is for the damned only,why is the book of life there? What is your thought about people excepting the Lord as their savior during the millennial reign? I'm not like a lot of people on these boards,when I ask a question I am trying to learn other people's thoughts and maybe find the truth.

ENOCH2010 said:

I have given that some thought veteran,if the second resurrection is for the damned only,why is the book of life there? What is your thought about people excepting the Lord as their savior during the millennial reign? I'm not like a lot of people on these boards,when I ask a question I am trying to learn other people's thoughts and maybe find the truth.

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It all centers on the requirement our Lord Jesus gave in John 3 about being "born again" of The Spirit. One's spirit within must... be born of The Spirit in order to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus. No exceptions.

Those of the "resurrection of damnation" are raised at the same time of Christ's coming according to the John 5:28-29 Scripture. And those Scriptures I referenced about the wicked still existing throughout Christ's thousand years reign is also evidence of the spirit of those NOT having been "born again" of The Spirit through Christ Jesus.

Thus they are 'dead' (their spirit), while it is not about flesh.

Those of Christ's elect already have their names written in the book of life, from the foundation of the world (Eph.1:4; Rev.17:8; Rev.3:5). That's why there is no opening of the book for those of the "first resurrection".

A second resurrection is inferred, by what? By the hint of a FIRST resurrection. What TYPE is the first one, unto Life or death? Unto everlasting Life through Christ Jesus. So likewise, is the second one like the first.

Since those of the "resurrection of damnation" are resurrected at the SAME TIME of the "resurrection of life" at Christ's coming (John 5:28-29), then there is no such thing as a later second resurrection for the wicked.

The wicked cannot be resurrected again to another damnation state. When Christ returns they will then be resurrected to a state of condemnation. That means subject to the "second death". And remember, the "second death" is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the END of Christ's future thousand years reign.

There will be some that will turn to Christ during His thousand years reign. And that's why Satan must be loosed one final time at the end, in order to try those. If they overcome Satan, then it's those who will be of the implied second resurrection at the end, which is why the book of life is opened at the end. Thus the second implied resurrection is one LIKE the first, unto Eternal Life through Christ Jesus.

Trekson said:

Hi Vet, Your words: "When our Lord Jesus returns, the resurrection will include both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation", per the John 5:28-29 Scripture."...After Christ's return there will be no more flesh death."

Let me start by saying there was no "discussion" to respond to. You were just attacking the pre-wrath position which you prove over and over again, you don't understand.

If there is no flesh death in the millennium, how do you explain this passage. Is. 65:20 - "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." (meaning the sinner will age naturally and die an early death by comparison to the redeemed)

Will man live longer? Yes! Will there still be flesh death? Yes! Will there be a resurrection of the damned prior to the GWTJ? Absolutely not!

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It's an expression for eternal existence. No flesh body existence after Christ's return, which is why the ONLY type death remaining will be the "second death" as written in Rev.20. And the "second death" is... the casting of one's spirit with soul into the "lake of fire". That's the only part of the wicked that's left that can perish in that time. At Christ's coming, ALL alive on earth will be 'changed' to the "spiritual body" type which Apostle Paul taught (and per Isaiah 25). The wicked will still have a condemned spirit with soul still subject to the "second death". This flesh state is over at Christ's coming.

And I'm still correct about what the Pre-Wrath position teaches, and it's origin as a modern doctrine of men.

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:

Well, I think you'll be surprised. The scriptures are full of info regarding life in the millennium and the earth will be quite populated by "fleshly" humans.

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Absolutely! Right on, bro'!

During the 1000 year reign the Lord rules with a rod of iron,and all nations will have to go to Jerusalem yearly to bow before the Lord.If they don't their land will receive no rain,so we have to be talking about fleshly beings,as spirits have no need for rain.

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:

It all centers on the requirement our Lord Jesus gave in John 3 about being "born again" of The Spirit. One's spirit within must... be born of The Spirit in order to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus. No exceptions.

Those of the "resurrection of damnation" are raised at the same time of Christ's coming according to the John 5:28-29 Scripture. And those Scriptures I referenced about the wicked still existing throughout Christ's thousand years reign is also evidence of the spirit of those NOT having been "born again" of The Spirit through Christ Jesus.

Thus they are 'dead' (their spirit), while it is not about flesh.

Those of Christ's elect already have their names written in the book of life, from the foundation of the world (Eph.1:4; Rev.17:8; Rev.3:5). That's why there is no opening of the book for those of the "first resurrection".

A second resurrection is inferred, by what? By the hint of a FIRST resurrection. What TYPE is the first one, unto Life or death? Unto everlasting Life through Christ Jesus. So likewise, is the second one like the first.

Since those of the "resurrection of damnation" are resurrected at the SAME TIME of the "resurrection of life" at Christ's coming (John 5:28-29), then there is no such thing as a later second resurrection for the wicked.

The wicked cannot be resurrected again to another damnation state. When Christ returns they will then be resurrected to a state of condemnation. That means subject to the "second death". And remember, the "second death" is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the END of Christ's future thousand years reign.

There will be some that will turn to Christ during His thousand years reign. And that's why Satan must be loosed one final time at the end, in order to try those. If they overcome Satan, then it's those who will be of the implied second resurrection at the end, which is why the book of life is opened at the end. Thus the second implied resurrection is one LIKE the first, unto Eternal Life through Christ Jesus.



It's an expression for eternal existence. No flesh body existence after Christ's return, which is why the ONLY type death remaining will be the "second death" as written in Rev.20. And the "second death" is... the casting of one's spirit with soul into the "lake of fire". That's the only part of the wicked that's left that can perish in that time. At Christ's coming, ALL alive on earth will be 'changed' to the "spiritual body" type which Apostle Paul taught (and per Isaiah 25). The wicked will still have a condemned spirit with soul still subject to the "second death". This flesh state is over at Christ's coming.

And I'm still correct about what the Pre-Wrath position teaches, and it's origin as a modern doctrine of men.

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Sorry, but John 5:28-29 is NOT talking about the resurrection at Christ's coming.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Yeshua` is talking about BOTH resurrections in the same verse! Furthermore, it INCLUDES the resurrection associated with the Great White Throne Judgment. What Yeshua` was saying in these verses is that He would reside as Judge over both! Look at the surrounding context:

John 5:19-47
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
KJV

The context is judgment! Furthermore, do not be deceived into thinking that there are only one or two judgments, such as the GWTJ. Yeshua` will be reigning as King of Isra'el and King of Kings over the earth by the end of the Millennium. One of the duties of a king is to judge, carry out justice and maintain law and order! That was true for David and Solomon, and it will be true for Yeshua`, as well! His role of Judge will be THROUGHOUT the Millennium! He will be the TRUE "Fount of Justice!"

You also seem to be forgetting the role of the Messiah/King in the Millennium as revealed in the second psalm:

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion!
7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>> '
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little! Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"
KJV

Trekson said:

Well, I think you'll be surprised. The scriptures are full of info regarding life in the millennium and the earth will be quite populated by "fleshly" humans.

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The Old Testament puts most things about man's existence past Christ's coming in fleshy terms. It's because it wasn't yet time to reveal the depth of info about the resurrection that the New Testament reveals.

ENOCH2010 said:

During the 1000 year reign the Lord rules with a rod of iron,and all nations will have to go to Jerusalem yearly to bow before the Lord.If they don't their land will receive no rain,so we have to be talking about fleshly beings,as spirits have no need for rain.

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You forget that angels are able to live upon the earth and eat man's food. See Gen.18-19.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, veteran.
Sorry, but John 5:28-29 is NOT talking about the resurrection at Christ's coming.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

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Yes the John 5:28-29 Scripture is... talking about the resurrection. One has to leave common sense to say it doesn't. And when did Apostle Paul show when the resurrection will occur? At the "last trump" per 1 Cor.15; at Christ's coming per 1 Thess.4.

Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` is talking about BOTH resurrections in the same verse! Furthermore, it INCLUDES the resurrection associated with the Great White Throne Judgment. What Yeshua` was saying in these verses is that He would reside as Judge over both! Look at the surrounding context:

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Yes, Jesus is... talking about BOTH 'types' of resurrection happening at the SAME time, at the sound of His voice, at a certain "hour". What "hour"? The hour of His second coming. That's how the angels of Matt.25 will do the separating between His sheep and the goats when He comes. The dwelling of the goats is what the "outer darkness" idea is about, which is further shown in Rev.22:14-15 as a separation between those outside the holy city, and those of His inside it, on earth.

Retrobyter said:

John 5:19-47
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
KJV

The context is judgment! Furthermore, do not be deceived into thinking that there are only one or two judgments, such as the GWTJ. Yeshua` will be reigning as King of Isra'el and King of Kings over the earth by the end of the Millennium. One of the duties of a king is to judge, carry out justice and maintain law and order! That was true for David and Solomon, and it will be true for Yeshua`, as well! His role of Judge will be THROUGHOUT the Millennium! He will be the TRUE "Fount of Justice!"

Click to expand...

Yes, the context of John 5 also includes the idea of Christ as Judge at His coming. It also includes the concept of the resurrection too.

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
(KJV)

Or did you forget that point? And in these verses...

John 5:24-27
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;

Those in Christ Jesus will be of the "resurrection of life", having passed from death to life. Thus they will not be of the "resurrection of damnation", which is that same idea of "condemnation". That "hour" there happened at Christ's Resurrection, when He went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to them, and led those who believed out of the prison house in the heavenly. That was also what those who came out of their graves in Jerusalem at the time of His death on the cross was about. They went into Jerusalem and appeared to many to show this event.


27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.
(KJV)

That verse is specifically about Christ given the power of Judgment by The Father. Notice the distinction between the concept of the resurrection and that.

Retrobyter said:

You also seem to be forgetting the role of the Messiah/King in the Millennium as revealed in the second psalm:

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion!
7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>> '
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little! Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"
KJV

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Why are you always making things up?

You reveal the same stiff-neck ways of old Israel that rebelled against God's Truth long ago. Your false claims against me regarding that Psalms Scripture have nothing to do with the subject I've been covering about the resurrection in John 5.