The end of the world? Not so fast.

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Powerful weakness

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"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14

What I see in Matthew 24:14 is that God will not send his Son and angels to reap the harvest until everyone has heard and had a chance to respond to the gospel message.

great-commission-statistics

41.7% of the world population is unreached by the gospel. Penetrating the 10-40 Window with the good news seems to take a long time.

It seems to me that the world isn't going to end within my lifetime.

I do try to live with a sense of urgency about the gospel. But I think a lot of people just want heaven to be reality sooner, so that shapes their beliefs about the End Times. I used to fall into that category. It seems more healthy to me now to expect to live a long life, but still behave and proclaim God's Word and message as though Jesus could return at any moment.
 

Strat

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People are born everyday so to say that"everyone" is going to hear the gospel is not possible unless people stop having children for a long enough period of time for "everyone to come to the age of accountability and maturity...a witness to all nationsmeans that the general population will have heard the gospel..with every birth comes the possibility of salvation or damnation
 

Dan57

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It doesn't say that everyone will hear the gospel, just that it will be proclaimed throughout the world. I believe it has, nearly everyone on earth knows who Jesus Christ was. Consider how technology has perforated nearly every country via satellite, internet, etc. Even Muslims are familiar with the story of Christ and know who he was. There are probably some remote area's where the gospel is not well known, but even those area's are quickly being covered. JMO
 

Adstar

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"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14

What I see in Matthew 24:14 is that God will not send his Son and angels to reap the harvest until everyone has heard and had a chance to respond to the gospel message.

great-commission-statistics

41.7% of the world population is unreached by the gospel. Penetrating the 10-40 Window with the good news seems to take a long time.

It seems to me that the world isn't going to end within my lifetime.

I do try to live with a sense of urgency about the gospel. But I think a lot of people just want heaven to be reality sooner, so that shapes their beliefs about the End Times. I used to fall into that category. It seems more healthy to me now to expect to live a long life, but still behave and proclaim God's Word and message as though Jesus could return at any moment.

The prophecy is that the Message of the gospel would be preached to all nations then the end would come.

It is clear that many of the nations in this world who currently do not have extensive access to the gospel messsage had access to it in times past. Nations such as Saudi Arabia and Iran had Christian communities and heard the message of Jesus before muhammed established islam and waged violent jihad against Christianity through the nations of the middle east and north african.

The point i am making is that many of that supposed 41.7% would be from nations who had formerly heard the message of the gospel but had rejected it and turned to cults like islam.

So the prophecy is about nations hearing the message so nations like the arabs and the persians have heard the message of Jesus many centuries ago.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Strat.

People are born everyday so to say that"everyone" is going to hear the gospel is not possible unless people stop having children for a long enough period of time for "everyone to come to the age of accountability and maturity...a witness to all nationsmeans that the general population will have heard the gospel..with every birth comes the possibility of salvation or damnation

It's still possible IF everyone would do his or her part. Consider this:

If just one person knew the Gospel and shared it with just two other people in one year and if those two people shared it with four other people, two people each, the following year, and so on, the world could be evangelized in just 33 years. It's simple mathematics. This is based on the current population of the world estimated for 11/9/2012 at 11:09 AM EST, which is estimated to be 7,051,134,783 people, growing at a rate of 250/minute. Thus, it is projected that the world population will be 9 billion people in 2045.

The number of years would be log(9,000,000,000) / log(2) = 33.067 years. Thus, it is possible that the world could be evangelized by 2013+33 = 2046 A.D. (adding one for the fraction). But, THIS calculation is not counting all those who already know the Gospel and do their part too! This 33 years could be GREATLY reduced simply by EVERY believer doing his or her part!

So, it IS possible! That's why it is SO very important that we KNOW what the Gospel is, so that we do our part to spread the Gospel to others.
 

veteran

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"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14

What I see in Matthew 24:14 is that God will not send his Son and angels to reap the harvest until everyone has heard and had a chance to respond to the gospel message.

great-commission-statistics

41.7% of the world population is unreached by the gospel. Penetrating the 10-40 Window with the good news seems to take a long time.

It seems to me that the world isn't going to end within my lifetime.

I do try to live with a sense of urgency about the gospel. But I think a lot of people just want heaven to be reality sooner, so that shapes their beliefs about the End Times. I used to fall into that category. It seems more healthy to me now to expect to live a long life, but still behave and proclaim God's Word and message as though Jesus could return at any moment.

I wouldn't be so quick to put it off. Prophecy is being fulfilled more quickly now a days.

Per Rev.11, when God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem with their dead bodies left unburied for 3.5 days, it says the nations will SEE them laying there, and send each other presents because of the torment of those two witnesses during their 1260 days of prophesying.

What kind of technology now exists that never did before which would allow all nations to SEE their dead bodies laying in the plaza in Jerusalem?

It's called satellite technology. Even the poor in far away countries now have cell phones.

If God's two witnesses rain fire down from heaven and commit the wicked to plagues on the order of Moses in Egypt like it's referring to, then would today's i-phones and youtube outlets remain silent???
 

tgwprophet

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Veteran.. good point!

What kind of world would it be that would allow 2 dead bodies to lay in the street in a Holy Place such as Jerusalem. Why would their bodies not be drug through the streets, torn limb from limb? be beaten while they lay dead? be descreated during that time? Humiliated? WEll if we consider the world will desire to SEE them as they rot and decay instead of being stripped from view in te previous mentioned possibilities... then we do see the use of iphones. internet and television --- possibly an 84 hour vigil could take place to "see" if the two witnesses are to be revivied as claimed in Revelations as the world expects them to just remain dead.


Strat wrote: " People are born everyday so to say that"everyone" is going to hear the gospel is not possible unless people stop having children for a long enough period of time for "everyone to come to the age of accountability and maturity...a witness to all nationsmeans that the general population will have heard the gospel..with every birth comes the possibility of salvation or damnation "

That is lame as Scripture states all children are children of God... did you miss that in Bible study? And have you forgot the power God allows for the parent?
 

revturmoil

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It doesn't say that everyone will hear the gospel, just that it will be proclaimed throughout the world. I believe it has, nearly everyone on earth knows who Jesus Christ was. Consider how technology has perforated nearly every country via satellite, internet, etc. Even Muslims are familiar with the story of Christ and know who he was. There are probably some remote area's where the gospel is not well known, but even those area's are quickly being covered. JMO

You're right, and it's not that difficult to figure that out considering how the verse is worded.

I'm actually quite dissappointed at the level of interpretational incompetence among Christians.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Hi Worshiper!

Please allow me to offer some food for thought on this subject.

So many times one will make the bible hard to understand. This happens because we read it as if it was written to us. That simply is not the case.

In the old testament, God dealt with the Jews. In the new testament, Jesus is still dealing with his chosen people, the Jews. He came as their savior and as we read through the gospel, we see that Jesus speaks to his disciples and/or the other Jews to try and explain the reason that he had come to them.

In the epistles, the disciples began to reach out to the gentiles and the first few scriptures will mention to whom the book was written.

In the book of revelation, we see it is written to the seven churches of Asia that existed during the time of the writing.

All of that to say this, they did not see their world as we see ours. They only viewed the world as the Roman empire. So when Paul wrote the book of Romans, he said:

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So by the time Paul wrote this letter, the gospel had been preached to the whole world.
 

John_8:32

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Hi Worshiper!

Please allow me to offer some food for thought on this subject.

So many times one will make the bible hard to understand. This happens because we read it as if it was written to us. That simply is not the case.

In the old testament, God dealt with the Jews. In the new testament, Jesus is still dealing with his chosen people, the Jews. He came as their savior and as we read through the gospel, we see that Jesus speaks to his disciples and/or the other Jews to try and explain the reason that he had come to them.

In the epistles, the disciples began to reach out to the gentiles and the first few scriptures will mention to whom the book was written.

In the book of revelation, we see it is written to the seven churches of Asia that existed during the time of the writing.

All of that to say this, they did not see their world as we see ours. They only viewed the world as the Roman empire. So when Paul wrote the book of Romans, he said:

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So by the time Paul wrote this letter, the gospel had been preached to the whole world.

Even Papua New Guinea?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, again, Worshiper.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14

What I see in Matthew 24:14 is that God will not send his Son and angels to reap the harvest until everyone has heard and had a chance to respond to the gospel message.

great-commission-statistics

41.7% of the world population is unreached by the gospel. Penetrating the 10-40 Window with the good news seems to take a long time.

It seems to me that the world isn't going to end within my lifetime.

I do try to live with a sense of urgency about the gospel. But I think a lot of people just want heaven to be reality sooner, so that shapes their beliefs about the End Times. I used to fall into that category. It seems more healthy to me now to expect to live a long life, but still behave and proclaim God's Word and message as though Jesus could return at any moment.

Now to drop the other shoe. Worshiper, you and the others need to understand that this is the "Gospel of the Kingdom," not the "Gospel" with which you are familiar. It's not "another Gospel"; the "Gospel" we have heard today IS the "another Gospel!"

Now, before you get all uppity about this, let's analyze why I make this claim: First, as should be commonly known, the word "Gospel," which comes from the Old English word "Godspell," meaing "good news," is a translation of the Greek word "euaggelion" also meaning "good news," coming from "eu" meaning "good" and "aggelion" meaning "message" or "news." (The Greek digraph "gg," spelled "gamma-gamma," has the "ng" sound.)

That this is the "Gospel of the Kingdom" does NOT mean that it is the "Kingdom's Gospel." It means that it is the "Gospel" or the "Good News" ABOUT the "Kingdom." Now, what "Kingdom" might this be? Well, it is a "Kingdom" that was well-known to the Jews to whom Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) and Yeshua` (Jesus) heralded for it was said to them in Mark 1:14-15,...

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

So, it was apparently well known, because Yeshua` didn't bother to explain what He was talking about; He just said the time was fulfilled and that the Kingdom of God was "at hand" or "within their grasp." Their only requirements were to "repent" or "change their minds 180 degrees" and "believe the gospel" or "believe the good news."

Now, bear this in mind: When was this said to them? It was said early in Yeshua`s ministry, right after Yochanan was put in prison by Herod Antipas for his wife Herodias, who had been the wife of his brother, Herod Philip I. So, who at that time knew ANYTHING about the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah" (a common definition for the "Gospel")? Most didn't even know that He WAS the Messiah, let alone believe that the Messiah had to die!

(Will write more soon.)
 

veteran

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Hi Worshiper!

Please allow me to offer some food for thought on this subject.

So many times one will make the bible hard to understand. This happens because we read it as if it was written to us. That simply is not the case.

In the old testament, God dealt with the Jews. In the new testament, Jesus is still dealing with his chosen people, the Jews. He came as their savior and as we read through the gospel, we see that Jesus speaks to his disciples and/or the other Jews to try and explain the reason that he had come to them.

In the epistles, the disciples began to reach out to the gentiles and the first few scriptures will mention to whom the book was written.

In the book of revelation, we see it is written to the seven churches of Asia that existed during the time of the writing.

All of that to say this, they did not see their world as we see ours. They only viewed the world as the Roman empire. So when Paul wrote the book of Romans, he said:

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So by the time Paul wrote this letter, the gospel had been preached to the whole world.

That's pretty much a Preterist and Historicist view of Revelation. It's not correct.

Our Lord Jesus gave it to ALL of His Church all the way to the end His Revelation. It was not ONLY for the 7 literal Churches in Asia in John's days.

Preterism and Historicism treats MOST of our Lord's Revelation as being about the time of the Roman empire, i.e., John's days. One who has studied all of God's Word knows better though.

Their kind of view of Revelation being most all past history would be like taking all the Book of Daniel and saying all of it is already past history too. And not only the Book of Daniel, but a whole lot of God's Word in both the OT and NT of events that have NEVER yet come to pass today.

So when those preachers get up in the pulpit and say things like, "Well this was about John's time, so it does not apply to the Church today", might want to think again unless you allow yourself to be led into deception of the times we're in today.
 

Powerful weakness

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Shalom, again, Worshiper.



Now to drop the other shoe. Worshiper, you and the others need to understand that this is the "Gospel of the Kingdom," not the "Gospel" with which you are familiar. It's not "another Gospel"; the "Gospel" we have heard today IS the "another Gospel!"

Now, before you get all uppity about this, let's analyze why I make this claim: First, as should be commonly known, the word "Gospel," which comes from the Old English word "Godspell," meaing "good news," is a translation of the Greek word "euaggelion" also meaning "good news," coming from "eu" meaning "good" and "aggelion" meaning "message" or "news." (The Greek digraph "gg," spelled "gamma-gamma," has the "ng" sound.)

That this is the "Gospel of the Kingdom" does NOT mean that it is the "Kingdom's Gospel." It means that it is the "Gospel" or the "Good News" ABOUT the "Kingdom." Now, what "Kingdom" might this be? Well, it is a "Kingdom" that was well-known to the Jews to whom Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) and Yeshua` (Jesus) heralded for it was said to them in Mark 1:14-15,...

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

So, it was apparently well known, because Yeshua` didn't bother to explain what He was talking about; He just said the time was fulfilled and that the Kingdom of God was "at hand" or "within their grasp." Their only requirements were to "repent" or "change their minds 180 degrees" and "believe the gospel" or "believe the good news."

Now, bear this in mind: When was this said to them? It was said early in Yeshua`s ministry, right after Yochanan was put in prison by Herod Antipas for his wife Herodias, who had been the wife of his brother, Herod Philip I. So, who at that time knew ANYTHING about the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah" (a common definition for the "Gospel")? Most didn't even know that He WAS the Messiah, let alone believe that the Messiah had to die!

(Will write more soon.)

What is the "gospel of the kingdom of heaven" that Jesus was preaching? Repentance and belief in the good news?

When I hear people use the word "gospel" I know it means good news. To me the message of good news is forgiveness and pardon made possible through faith in Jesus as Christ and His atonement sacrifice, having a right standing with God, being considered righteous - and one day made righteous - before God, walking/living in relationship and communication with Him and growing more Godly through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the hope and joy of salvation, and the gift of eternal life in the kingdom of God (or kingdom of heaven). For starters.

Please do write more, I am interested to hear more.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Worshiper.

What is the "gospel of the kingdom of heaven" that Jesus was preaching? Repentance and belief in the good news?

When I hear people use the word "gospel" I know it means good news. To me the message of good news is forgiveness and pardon made possible through faith in Jesus as Christ and His atonement sacrifice, having a right standing with God, being considered righteous - and one day made righteous - before God, walking/living in relationship and communication with Him and growing more Godly through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the hope and joy of salvation, and the gift of eternal life in the kingdom of God (or kingdom of heaven). For starters.

Please do write more, I am interested to hear more.

Sorry to cut it short yesterday, but I was exhausted. The Gospel of the Kingdom is that which was well known among the Jews during Yeshua`s day. It is best seen in Yesha`yahu's prophecy:

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (rescue; deliverance); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV


As I said before, it is the good news ABOUT the Kingdom! That Kingdom is the Kingdom of Isra'el, initially under God alone, but with the demand of the children of Isra'el, that Kingdom was eventually given to David, who considered himself a servant of the REAL King, YHWH. Because of David's loyalty to God, His faithfulness, God promised that David's dynasty would never end. Yeshua`, the Son of David, fulfills that promise, for Yeshua`s Kingdom will never end.

I understand what you are talking about. It is the common interpretation among Protestants and Baptists who understand that there is nothing we can do to merit the favor of a holy God. However, there are two words that might make it more clear for you. The process by which a person has Yeshua`s sacrifice applied to his own sins is NOT called "salvation" in the Scriptures; rather, it is called God's "justification" of the person.

The word "salvation" is reserved, particularly in the prophecies, for the national rescue or deliverance of national Isra'el.

Joel 2:32 is a case in point:

Look at the context of Joel 2:32:

Joel 2:28-3:3
2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
KJV


This is not an isolated case; it is COMMON within the prophecies! Now, consider where this passage is quoted: Romans 10:13!

Romans 10:1-21
10:1 Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation; 2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; 3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous. 4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. 5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them. 6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says:

“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend to heaven?’”

that is, to bring the Messiah down — 7 or,

“‘Who will descend into Sh’ol?’”

that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead. 8 What, then, does it say?

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.” (Deut. 30:11-14)

that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely, 9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance. 11 For the passage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated. (Isa. 28:16) 12 That means that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — Adonai is the same for everyone, rich toward everyone who calls on him, 13 since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered. (Joel 3:5(2:32))

14 But how can they call on someone if they haven’t trusted in him? And how can they trust in someone if they haven’t heard about him? And how can they hear about someone if no one is proclaiming him? 15 And how can people proclaim him unless God sends them? — as the Tanakh puts it, “How beautiful are the feet of those announcing good news about good things!” (Isa. 52:7)

16 The problem is that they haven’t all paid attention to the Good News and obeyed it. For Yesha‘yahu says,

“Adonai, who has trusted what he has heard from us?” (Isa. 53:1)

17 So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.

18 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that they didn’t hear?” No, they did hear —

“Their voice has gone out throughout the whole world
and their words to the ends of the earth.” (Ps. 19:5)

19 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that Isra’el didn’t understand?”

“I will provoke you to jealousy over a non-nation,
over a nation void of understanding I will make you angry.” (Deut. 32:21)

20 Moreover, Yesha‘yahu boldly says,

“I was found by those who were not looking for me,
I became known to those who did not ask for me”; (Isa. 65:1)

21 but to Isra’el he says,

“All day long I held out my hands
to a people who kept disobeying and contradicting.” (Isa. 65:2)
CJB


And then, Paul goes into chapter 11 where he tells us that all Isra'el shall be saved, i.e., delivered or rescued!

Romans 11:11-32
11 “In that case, I say, isn’t it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?” Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. (Deut. 32:21) 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world — that is, if Isra’el’s being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter — how much greater riches will Isra’el in its fullness bring them!

13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work 14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them! 15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!

16 Now if the hallah (Jewish egg bread) offered as firstfruits (the piece torn off the loaf) is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you. 19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you! 22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off! 23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won’t imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra’el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; 26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved (rescued; delivered). As the Tanakh says,

“Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer;
he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov
27 and this will be my covenant with them, . . .
when I take away their sins.” (Isa. 59:20-21; 27:9)


28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs’ sake, 29 for God’s free gifts and his calling are irrevocable. 30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra’el’s disobedience; 31 so also Isra’el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God’s mercy. 32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all.
CJB


The Isra'elites, particularly the Jews, are and will always remain God's "chosen people!" It's just that now WE among us that were once Goyim (Gentiles) are also grafted into the Messiah's "olive tree" among them! And WITHIN THE MESSIAH ONLY, there is no difference between Jew or Goy! Outside of the Messiah, there is still a difference because of their history and their family!

That's it for tonight.
 

Rocky Wiley

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That's pretty much a Preterist and Historicist view of Revelation. It's not correct.

Our Lord Jesus gave it to ALL of His Church all the way to the end His Revelation. It was not ONLY for the 7 literal Churches in Asia in John's days.

Preterism and Historicism treats MOST of our Lord's Revelation as being about the time of the Roman empire, i.e., John's days. One who has studied all of God's Word knows better though.

Veteran
Many have studied and found there are no scriptures to back up what you just said.

Rocky

Their kind of view of Revelation being most all past history would be like taking all the Book of Daniel and saying all of it is already past history too. And not only the Book of Daniel, but a whole lot of God's Word in both the OT and NT of events that have NEVER yet come to pass today.

Veteran,
Jesus said that he had come to fullfill all that had been written, that would be the Old Testament, including Daniel.
And he said unto them,
Luk 24:44
These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Rocky


So when those preachers get up in the pulpit and say things like, "Well this was about John's time, so it does not apply to the Church today", might want to think again unless you allow yourself to be led into deception of the times we're in today.

Veteran,
One can't be wrong if it is backed by scripture.
Rocky

I have responded to each point above.
 

veteran

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That's pretty much a Preterist and Historicist view of Revelation. It's not correct.

Our Lord Jesus gave it to ALL of His Church all the way to the end His Revelation. It was not ONLY for the 7 literal Churches in Asia in John's days.

Preterism and Historicism treats MOST of our Lord's Revelation as being about the time of the Roman empire, i.e., John's days. One who has studied all of God's Word knows better though.

Veteran
Many have studied and found there are no scriptures to back up what you just said.

Rocky


Yet you can quickly go to some book of men's doctrines and back up what you've said... and that's the problem. You're not staying in God's Word for yourself. What I've said about Christ's seven Messages in Revelation is very easy... to back up. But one must stay in the actual Scripture to know that first, something you've not done.


Their kind of view of Revelation being most all past history would be like taking all the Book of Daniel and saying all of it is already past history too. And not only the Book of Daniel, but a whole lot of God's Word in both the OT and NT of events that have NEVER yet come to pass today.

Veteran,
Jesus said that he had come to fullfill all that had been written, that would be the Old Testament, including Daniel.
And he said unto them,
Luk 24:44
These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Rocky


Then you believe Christ Jesus is NOT going to return to this earth like a multitude of other Scripture does state??? That's what some Preterists actually believe, but they're only listening to false prophets. It will be proven to them soon enough that Christ Jesus is going to literally return to this earth in the way He ascended into Heaven, because that event is well written of, and not just one place in Scripture only.



So when those preachers get up in the pulpit and say things like, "Well this was about John's time, so it does not apply to the Church today", might want to think again unless you allow yourself to be led into deception of the times we're in today.

Veteran,
One can't be wrong if it is backed by scripture.
Rocky

You've yet to back up that Christ's seven Messages of Revelation were for seven separate Church Ages. That idea is from men, not from His Word.

What it is that you actually hate about me is that God has blessed me with understanding in His Word. He didn't do that because I'm special nor anything like that, for I am not special. He did it because that is His Promise to those who seek Him in spirit and in truth, and then get down to disciplined Bible study how He showed us. He would do that for the Pre-trib Rapture preachers too if they would only turn back to His Word instead of simply following ideas of men from the charlatans who slid the doctrine into His Church.
 

veteran

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Veteran.. good point!

What kind of world would it be that would allow 2 dead bodies to lay in the street in a Holy Place such as Jerusalem. Why would their bodies not be drug through the streets, torn limb from limb? be beaten while they lay dead? be descreated during that time? Humiliated? WEll if we consider the world will desire to SEE them as they rot and decay instead of being stripped from view in te previous mentioned possibilities... then we do see the use of iphones. internet and television --- possibly an 84 hour vigil could take place to "see" if the two witnesses are to be revivied as claimed in Revelations as the world expects them to just remain dead.

That's something I still wonder about, just why the wicked in Jerusalem at that future time will leave their bodies laying in the street unburied.

What I suspect is, God's two witnesses might make a claim like our Lord Jesus did concerning His resurrection after 3 days and 3 nights. So the unbelievers would have reason to leave their bodies laying in the street to try and prove to the people how they are fakes. And if all nations are to SEE them, that would mean cameras focused on them, like a world-wide live news event. Yet all that is still just speculation.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Actually, it's very simple. Based on the context surrounding these two prophets, they are VERY hated! People will be trying to kill them and get killed themselves by the very same method by which they attacked them! Furthermore, they were the supposed source of the plagues that they were exacting on the people. They will be GLAD to see them dead!

Revelation 11:3-14
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
KJV


Because they are such a "thorn in everyone's side," the people will actually CELEBRATE when the two are finally killed! Also, Jewish law states that a person is not declared dead until the third day to be sure they haven't just swooned or gone into some necroleptic state from which they could recover. It's the same reason why embalming in our country is delayed. There are horror stories of real people with necrolepsy who have awakened, screaming from the pain before they really died, finding themselves pumped full of embalming fluid!