That seems to be a very bold statement. These are the same heavens and same planet that were here when God began His plan to bring children into His family.
New Heavens and New Earth
- Thread starter Justin Mangonel
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That seems to be a very bold statement. These are the same heavens and same planet that were here when God began His plan to bring children into His family.
Hi Justin, Seeing as how you didn't recognize what I was speaking of it's probably safe to assume you're not that involved in it. Post-modern prophetics really has nothing to do with prophesy per se, it's more like a deeper walk in the spirit. In most cases it's a good thing and involves a closer walk with God than I think most in our generation are capable of. However, the draw back to this is that those involved are more open to deceiving spirits.
I would say that 99% of christians couldn't tell a deceiving spirit from the Holy Spirit, at first. The devil has had millennia to perfect the counterfeit and only a thorough search of God's word can see through it, as the devil knows the bible better than all of us. I say this because of the comment you made in post 9 - "For instance, I was walking down a road one day and God spoke to me saying, "I am not coming back until the end of the millennium." Whoa!...I thought....that is something I never heard. However, I did not throw the thought out as demonic just because it went against most everything I had been taught. I considered it."
Now there is nothing wrong with "considering" it. That's how we tell the difference between the false and the true, however, "considering it" is only as good as the back up of His Word. At this point, we would need to get our own thoughts out of the way and go straight to the Word. After all, the devil gets into our "thought life" as well to make sense of things that are in error.
Imo, there is absolutely no scripture that backs up a post-millennial return and if the Word doesn't "back up" our "thoughts and considerations" then they must go by the wayside.
You're right in that many people look at prophesy as a large jigsaw puzzle but we also know that we don't have all the pieces. The largest pieces missing are what the 7 thunders say in Rev. 10, which could change everything we believe to be true. Although I am firm in my belief I am not "dug in" adamant about them because of these kind of factors.
I would be interested in knowing what you were on the brink of "considering" before that "distraction" blind-sided you and sent you in a different direction.
I would say that 99% of christians couldn't tell a deceiving spirit from the Holy Spirit, at first. The devil has had millennia to perfect the counterfeit and only a thorough search of God's word can see through it, as the devil knows the bible better than all of us. I say this because of the comment you made in post 9 - "For instance, I was walking down a road one day and God spoke to me saying, "I am not coming back until the end of the millennium." Whoa!...I thought....that is something I never heard. However, I did not throw the thought out as demonic just because it went against most everything I had been taught. I considered it."
Now there is nothing wrong with "considering" it. That's how we tell the difference between the false and the true, however, "considering it" is only as good as the back up of His Word. At this point, we would need to get our own thoughts out of the way and go straight to the Word. After all, the devil gets into our "thought life" as well to make sense of things that are in error.
Imo, there is absolutely no scripture that backs up a post-millennial return and if the Word doesn't "back up" our "thoughts and considerations" then they must go by the wayside.
You're right in that many people look at prophesy as a large jigsaw puzzle but we also know that we don't have all the pieces. The largest pieces missing are what the 7 thunders say in Rev. 10, which could change everything we believe to be true. Although I am firm in my belief I am not "dug in" adamant about them because of these kind of factors.
I would be interested in knowing what you were on the brink of "considering" before that "distraction" blind-sided you and sent you in a different direction.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Justin Mangonel.
Think of the entire universe as a LIVING thing! You don't make a human being "better" by killing him and then giving it back a new life! YOU HEAL HIM! Why does God need to reinvent the wheel for a flaw in one tiny speck of the universe?! Even if haSatan is a powerful, supernatural being, he doesn't have the power to take the entire universe from an All-Powerful God, El Elyon! NOR, does he have the power to mess it up so badly that God will need to re-create the entire thing! He'd like to THINK he's bigger than he is, and he'd like to get as many people as possible to THINK he's bigger than he is, but haSatan is a LIMITED CREATURE! As I've said before, he and God are not two equally opposing forces, like the yin-yang principle of the East!
AND, it DOES violate the Scriptures to say that God will destroy the earth, let alone the entire universe! Some will claim that "all the mountains will be gone" because of the sixth seal:
Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV
However, if one will simply look at the next two verses, the mountains are STILL THERE! They're just not in the same global positions anymore! The earth has SHIFTED on its axis because of a close, gravitational event! And, the "stars of heaven" falling "unto the earth" (meteorites), tells us that this is probably a near miss with an asteroid or a comet!
One must REALLY be careful with absolutes and dichotomous thinking when it comes to Scripture. Often, "every" means "every" thing WITHIN RANGE! For instance, one might make a mistake in absolutes reading the following:
Isaiah 40:3-5
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
KJV
But, this is a prophecy about a new highway that will be built for the Messiah after He has returned and become King of Isra'el! It's not "EVERY" valley and "EVERY" mountain and hill in the earth; it's every valley and every mountain and hill IN THE PATH that the Messiah must travel! It's very much like our super highways and interstates! If there's a mountain in the way of a planned interstate, dynamite is used, and the rock and dirt removed from the mountain is used to fill up a ravine for the interstate!
And, although Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was the "voice of him that crieth in the wilderness," and he DID preach this message, it was NOT fulfilled when Yeshua` was here the first time. However, it WILL be fulfilled in the future after His Second Advent - His Second Coming - and it will be fulfilled LITERALLY!
It's very much "okay" to question "strongly held assumptions that cloud the understanding of scripture." I believe that God WANTS us to do that, especially when what we have isn't working. However, I believe and have found for myself that the answer is not to "hear a voice in one's ear," especially if it says something unbiblical like, "I am not coming back until the end of the millennium." The answer for me has been in re-learning definitions for popular words and phrases and in re-reading the Scriptures as they were originally meant to be read. The key to understanding Scripture is this: The Bible is all about the children of Isra'el and God making them into His Kingdom for His Son's sake. With that as the core goal, Goyim (Gentiles) have their place as being "grafted into the Olive Tree against nature!" Those of us who were Jews and Isra'elites before coming to the Messiah come BACK to the Olive Tree to which our ancestors belonged; those of us who were Goyim (Gentiles) before coming to the Messiah Yeshua` come to the Olive Tree FOR THE FIRST TIME!
Jews and Isra'elites have HISTORY, CULTURE, LANGUAGE, RITUALS, CEREMONIES, HOLIDAYS that simply need to be viewed in light of the Messiah Yeshua`.
Goyim need to LEARN all of this before much of it makes any sense! I'm not saying that a Goy (a Gentile) must become a Jew to be "saved," or rather, "justified by God"; however, I AM saying that when a Goy BECOMES "justified by God," he is MADE a Jew by the blood of Yeshua` and he is adopted into the mishpachah, the family! Because Yeshua` was and is a Jew, those of us who are Goyim justified by God ALSO are Jews by Yeshua`s blood. Therefore, it would be to their best interest to learn what it means to be a Jew - to learn the history, culture, language, rituals, ceremonies, and holidays and how they apply to the Messiah Yeshua` or Jesus Christ.
Did you know, for instance, that Yeshua` was celebrating the Seder meal for the Jewish holiday of Pesach (Passover) when He started the memorial today known as the Lord's Supper, Communion, or the Eucharist?
Did you know that "Pentecost" is Greek for "Fiftieth" which was a Jewish holiday called "Shavu'ot," the anniversary of the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai? It was called "Fiftieth" because of a ritual that the Jews developed called the "counting of the omer," the counting of the 50 (7 x 7 + 1) days since Pesach until Shavu'ot arrived. "Shavu'ot," by the way, is Hebrew for "Sevens" or "Weeks," because they were instructed to keep track of seven Shabbats (Sabbaths) after Pesach to time the arrival of Shavu'ot. (Lev. 23:15-16)
Finally, one must check the original language to be sure one is understanding a verse correctly, particularly if he or she intends to use that verse for particulars. One cannot use a butter knife for surgery! Only a sharp scalpel or a laser precision scalpel should be used! Let's look at the Greek for 2 Peter 3:8 with some of its context:
Petrou B (2 Peter) 3:8-10
7 hoi de nun ouranoi kai hee gee too autoo logoo tetheesaurismenoi eisin puri teeroumenoi eis heemeran kriseoos kai apooleias toon aseboon anthroopoon.
8 Hen de touto mee lanthanetoo humas, ageapeetoi, hoti mia heemera para Kurioo hoos chilia etee kai chilia etee hoos heemera mia.
9 Ou bradunei Kurios tees epaggelias, hoos tines braduteeta heegountai, alla makrothumei eis humas mee boulomenos tinas apolesthai alla pantas eis metanoian chooreesai.
10 Heexei de heemera Kuriou hoos kleptees, in hee hoi ouranoi hroizeedon pareleusontai stoicheia de kausoumena lutheesetai, kai gee kai ta en autee erga katakakeesetai.
7 hoi = 7 the
de = but
nun = now
ouranoi = skies
kai = and
hee = the
gee = earth/land/ground/soil/dirt
too = by-the
autoo = same
logoo = word/message/topic
tetheesaurismenoi = reserved/amassed
eisin = are
puri = to/unto-fire
teeroumenoi = guarded
eis = into/to
heemeran = a-day
kriseoos = of-decision/judgment
kai = and
apooleias = of-ruin/loss
toon = of-the
aseboon = ungodly
anthroopoon. = men/human-beings.
8 Hen = 8 One-[thing]
de = but
touto = this
mee = not
lanthanetoo = be-ignorant-of
humas, = you,
ageapeetoi, = brothers/siblings,
hoti = that
mia = one
heemera = day
para = near/along-side-of
Kurioo = Lord
hoos = like/as
chilia = a-thousand
etee = years
kai = and
chilia = a-thousand
etee = years
hoos = like/as
heemera = day
mia. = one.
9 Ou = 9 Not
bradunei = does-delay
Kurios = Lord
tees = of-the/from-the
epaggelias, = promise,
hoos = like
tines = some
braduteeta = delay
heegountai, = deem/consider,
alla = but
makrothumei = is-patient
eis = to/into
humas = us
mee = not
boulomenos = being-willing/wanting
tinas = any[one]
apolesthai = to-be-fully-destroyed
alla = but
pantas = all/everyone
eis = to/into
metanoian = repentance
chooreesai. = to-pass/enter.
10 Heexei = 10 Will-come/will-pass/will-enter
de = but
heemera = a-day
Kuriou = of-Lord
hoos = like/as
kleptees, = a-thief,
en = in
hee = the/which
hoi = the
ouranoi = heavens/skies
hroizeedon = whizzingly/crashingly
pareleusontai = shall-come-near/shall-approach/shall-go-by/shall-perish
stoicheia = orderly-constituents
de = but
kausoumena = being-set-on-fire
lutheesetai, = shall-be-loosened/dissolved/melted/broken-up,
kai = and/also
gee = earth/land/ground/soil/dirt
kai = and/also
ta = the
en = in
autee = it
erga = works/products
katakakeesetai. = shall-be-burned-down.
7 the but now skies and the earth/land/ground/soil/dirt by-the same word/message/topic reserved/amassed are to/unto-fire guarded into/to a-day of-decision/judgment and of-ruin/loss of-the ungodly men/human-beings.
8 One-[thing] but this not be-ignorant-of you, brothers/siblings, that one day near/along-side-of Lord like/as a-thousand years and a-thousand years like/as day one.
9 Not does-delay Lord of-the/from-the promise, like some delay deem/consider, but is-patient to/into us not being-willing/wanting any[one] to-be-fully-destroyed but all/everyone to/into repentance to-pass/enter.
10 Will-come/will-pass/will-enter but a-day of-Lord like/as a-thief, in which the heavens/skies whizzingly/crashingly shall-come-near/shall-approach/shall-go-by/shall-perish orderly-constituents but being-set-on-fire shall-be-loosened/dissolved/melted/broken-up, and earth/land/ground/soil/dirt also the in it works/products shall-be-burned-down.
7 but the present skies and the ground are reserved by the same word unto fire into a day of judgment and of loss of the ungodly human beings.
8 But this one thing you be not ignorant of, siblings, that one day near [the] Lord [shall be] like a thousand years and a thousand years [shall be] like one day.
9 [The] Lord does not delay from the promise, like some consider delay, but is patient to us not wanting anyone to be fully destroyed but all to enter repentance.
10 But a day of [the] Lord will come like a thief, in which the skies shall go by whizzingly; but orderly parts being set on fire shall be dissolved/melted and the ground and the products in it shall be burned down.
Notice the highlighted words above. The word is not "sun" (pronounced "soon"), which is the usual Greek word translated "with," nor is it the instrumental case which may also be translated as "with (the noun)." It's the word "para" meaning "near" or "along side of." I believe that Peter here is making the point that the Day of the Lord that is yet to come begins with His arrival - His Second Coming - but it's a LONG Day that lasts for a thousand years. Why? Because Yeshua` is also called the "SUN of Righteousness" and the "Dayspring" and the "Bright Morning Star," our planet's star, the SUN! His face outshines the sun LITERALLY! While He reigns in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), the "SUN" there will never set! So, that Day will LITERALLY last for the 1000 years that haSatan is put away until he is released from prison. And, it will be THEN that "the day of judgment and of loss of the ungodly human beings" will occur. This parallels Revelation 20.
All for you, bro'.
Think of the entire universe as a LIVING thing! You don't make a human being "better" by killing him and then giving it back a new life! YOU HEAL HIM! Why does God need to reinvent the wheel for a flaw in one tiny speck of the universe?! Even if haSatan is a powerful, supernatural being, he doesn't have the power to take the entire universe from an All-Powerful God, El Elyon! NOR, does he have the power to mess it up so badly that God will need to re-create the entire thing! He'd like to THINK he's bigger than he is, and he'd like to get as many people as possible to THINK he's bigger than he is, but haSatan is a LIMITED CREATURE! As I've said before, he and God are not two equally opposing forces, like the yin-yang principle of the East!
AND, it DOES violate the Scriptures to say that God will destroy the earth, let alone the entire universe! Some will claim that "all the mountains will be gone" because of the sixth seal:
Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV
However, if one will simply look at the next two verses, the mountains are STILL THERE! They're just not in the same global positions anymore! The earth has SHIFTED on its axis because of a close, gravitational event! And, the "stars of heaven" falling "unto the earth" (meteorites), tells us that this is probably a near miss with an asteroid or a comet!
One must REALLY be careful with absolutes and dichotomous thinking when it comes to Scripture. Often, "every" means "every" thing WITHIN RANGE! For instance, one might make a mistake in absolutes reading the following:
Isaiah 40:3-5
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
KJV
But, this is a prophecy about a new highway that will be built for the Messiah after He has returned and become King of Isra'el! It's not "EVERY" valley and "EVERY" mountain and hill in the earth; it's every valley and every mountain and hill IN THE PATH that the Messiah must travel! It's very much like our super highways and interstates! If there's a mountain in the way of a planned interstate, dynamite is used, and the rock and dirt removed from the mountain is used to fill up a ravine for the interstate!
And, although Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was the "voice of him that crieth in the wilderness," and he DID preach this message, it was NOT fulfilled when Yeshua` was here the first time. However, it WILL be fulfilled in the future after His Second Advent - His Second Coming - and it will be fulfilled LITERALLY!
It's very much "okay" to question "strongly held assumptions that cloud the understanding of scripture." I believe that God WANTS us to do that, especially when what we have isn't working. However, I believe and have found for myself that the answer is not to "hear a voice in one's ear," especially if it says something unbiblical like, "I am not coming back until the end of the millennium." The answer for me has been in re-learning definitions for popular words and phrases and in re-reading the Scriptures as they were originally meant to be read. The key to understanding Scripture is this: The Bible is all about the children of Isra'el and God making them into His Kingdom for His Son's sake. With that as the core goal, Goyim (Gentiles) have their place as being "grafted into the Olive Tree against nature!" Those of us who were Jews and Isra'elites before coming to the Messiah come BACK to the Olive Tree to which our ancestors belonged; those of us who were Goyim (Gentiles) before coming to the Messiah Yeshua` come to the Olive Tree FOR THE FIRST TIME!
Jews and Isra'elites have HISTORY, CULTURE, LANGUAGE, RITUALS, CEREMONIES, HOLIDAYS that simply need to be viewed in light of the Messiah Yeshua`.
Goyim need to LEARN all of this before much of it makes any sense! I'm not saying that a Goy (a Gentile) must become a Jew to be "saved," or rather, "justified by God"; however, I AM saying that when a Goy BECOMES "justified by God," he is MADE a Jew by the blood of Yeshua` and he is adopted into the mishpachah, the family! Because Yeshua` was and is a Jew, those of us who are Goyim justified by God ALSO are Jews by Yeshua`s blood. Therefore, it would be to their best interest to learn what it means to be a Jew - to learn the history, culture, language, rituals, ceremonies, and holidays and how they apply to the Messiah Yeshua` or Jesus Christ.
Did you know, for instance, that Yeshua` was celebrating the Seder meal for the Jewish holiday of Pesach (Passover) when He started the memorial today known as the Lord's Supper, Communion, or the Eucharist?
Did you know that "Pentecost" is Greek for "Fiftieth" which was a Jewish holiday called "Shavu'ot," the anniversary of the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai? It was called "Fiftieth" because of a ritual that the Jews developed called the "counting of the omer," the counting of the 50 (7 x 7 + 1) days since Pesach until Shavu'ot arrived. "Shavu'ot," by the way, is Hebrew for "Sevens" or "Weeks," because they were instructed to keep track of seven Shabbats (Sabbaths) after Pesach to time the arrival of Shavu'ot. (Lev. 23:15-16)
Finally, one must check the original language to be sure one is understanding a verse correctly, particularly if he or she intends to use that verse for particulars. One cannot use a butter knife for surgery! Only a sharp scalpel or a laser precision scalpel should be used! Let's look at the Greek for 2 Peter 3:8 with some of its context:
Petrou B (2 Peter) 3:8-10
7 hoi de nun ouranoi kai hee gee too autoo logoo tetheesaurismenoi eisin puri teeroumenoi eis heemeran kriseoos kai apooleias toon aseboon anthroopoon.
8 Hen de touto mee lanthanetoo humas, ageapeetoi, hoti mia heemera para Kurioo hoos chilia etee kai chilia etee hoos heemera mia.
9 Ou bradunei Kurios tees epaggelias, hoos tines braduteeta heegountai, alla makrothumei eis humas mee boulomenos tinas apolesthai alla pantas eis metanoian chooreesai.
10 Heexei de heemera Kuriou hoos kleptees, in hee hoi ouranoi hroizeedon pareleusontai stoicheia de kausoumena lutheesetai, kai gee kai ta en autee erga katakakeesetai.
7 hoi = 7 the
de = but
nun = now
ouranoi = skies
kai = and
hee = the
gee = earth/land/ground/soil/dirt
too = by-the
autoo = same
logoo = word/message/topic
tetheesaurismenoi = reserved/amassed
eisin = are
puri = to/unto-fire
teeroumenoi = guarded
eis = into/to
heemeran = a-day
kriseoos = of-decision/judgment
kai = and
apooleias = of-ruin/loss
toon = of-the
aseboon = ungodly
anthroopoon. = men/human-beings.
8 Hen = 8 One-[thing]
de = but
touto = this
mee = not
lanthanetoo = be-ignorant-of
humas, = you,
ageapeetoi, = brothers/siblings,
hoti = that
mia = one
heemera = day
para = near/along-side-of
Kurioo = Lord
hoos = like/as
chilia = a-thousand
etee = years
kai = and
chilia = a-thousand
etee = years
hoos = like/as
heemera = day
mia. = one.
9 Ou = 9 Not
bradunei = does-delay
Kurios = Lord
tees = of-the/from-the
epaggelias, = promise,
hoos = like
tines = some
braduteeta = delay
heegountai, = deem/consider,
alla = but
makrothumei = is-patient
eis = to/into
humas = us
mee = not
boulomenos = being-willing/wanting
tinas = any[one]
apolesthai = to-be-fully-destroyed
alla = but
pantas = all/everyone
eis = to/into
metanoian = repentance
chooreesai. = to-pass/enter.
10 Heexei = 10 Will-come/will-pass/will-enter
de = but
heemera = a-day
Kuriou = of-Lord
hoos = like/as
kleptees, = a-thief,
en = in
hee = the/which
hoi = the
ouranoi = heavens/skies
hroizeedon = whizzingly/crashingly
pareleusontai = shall-come-near/shall-approach/shall-go-by/shall-perish
stoicheia = orderly-constituents
de = but
kausoumena = being-set-on-fire
lutheesetai, = shall-be-loosened/dissolved/melted/broken-up,
kai = and/also
gee = earth/land/ground/soil/dirt
kai = and/also
ta = the
en = in
autee = it
erga = works/products
katakakeesetai. = shall-be-burned-down.
7 the but now skies and the earth/land/ground/soil/dirt by-the same word/message/topic reserved/amassed are to/unto-fire guarded into/to a-day of-decision/judgment and of-ruin/loss of-the ungodly men/human-beings.
8 One-[thing] but this not be-ignorant-of you, brothers/siblings, that one day near/along-side-of Lord like/as a-thousand years and a-thousand years like/as day one.
9 Not does-delay Lord of-the/from-the promise, like some delay deem/consider, but is-patient to/into us not being-willing/wanting any[one] to-be-fully-destroyed but all/everyone to/into repentance to-pass/enter.
10 Will-come/will-pass/will-enter but a-day of-Lord like/as a-thief, in which the heavens/skies whizzingly/crashingly shall-come-near/shall-approach/shall-go-by/shall-perish orderly-constituents but being-set-on-fire shall-be-loosened/dissolved/melted/broken-up, and earth/land/ground/soil/dirt also the in it works/products shall-be-burned-down.
7 but the present skies and the ground are reserved by the same word unto fire into a day of judgment and of loss of the ungodly human beings.
8 But this one thing you be not ignorant of, siblings, that one day near [the] Lord [shall be] like a thousand years and a thousand years [shall be] like one day.
9 [The] Lord does not delay from the promise, like some consider delay, but is patient to us not wanting anyone to be fully destroyed but all to enter repentance.
10 But a day of [the] Lord will come like a thief, in which the skies shall go by whizzingly; but orderly parts being set on fire shall be dissolved/melted and the ground and the products in it shall be burned down.
Notice the highlighted words above. The word is not "sun" (pronounced "soon"), which is the usual Greek word translated "with," nor is it the instrumental case which may also be translated as "with (the noun)." It's the word "para" meaning "near" or "along side of." I believe that Peter here is making the point that the Day of the Lord that is yet to come begins with His arrival - His Second Coming - but it's a LONG Day that lasts for a thousand years. Why? Because Yeshua` is also called the "SUN of Righteousness" and the "Dayspring" and the "Bright Morning Star," our planet's star, the SUN! His face outshines the sun LITERALLY! While He reigns in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), the "SUN" there will never set! So, that Day will LITERALLY last for the 1000 years that haSatan is put away until he is released from prison. And, it will be THEN that "the day of judgment and of loss of the ungodly human beings" will occur. This parallels Revelation 20.
All for you, bro'.
Would it matter to you if God decided to totally destroy the universe and make another one?
(nice post btw)
(nice post btw)
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Justin Mangonel.
I don't know, would it matter to you if God decided to contradict what He had his prophets write? Would it matter to you if God made Himself out to be a liar?
(thanks)
I don't know, would it matter to you if God decided to contradict what He had his prophets write? Would it matter to you if God made Himself out to be a liar?
(thanks)
Actually the two are completely compatible. Animal sacrifices were never intended to take away sin...
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Why then?
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Why remember sin every year?
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Because sin requires blood to be shed...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God's law is not arbitrary...
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Every sin requires blood to be shed. This is the lesson of the schoolmaster...
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
All have sinned and fallen short...
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
What law?
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Under what Priesthood did Israel receive the Commandments? The Priesthood had not been established yet. God did that a little later on through Moses and Aaron. So what laws did the Priesthood carry out? The laws of sacrifices.
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
What law needed changed? The law that said that only a genetic relative of Aaron of the tribe of Levi coudl be a Priest or Highpriest...
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Now what law are we talking about that made nothing perfect?
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
The laws of sacrifices could not make one perfect nor could thye take away sin.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
No longer under the Levitical Priesthood or the sacrificial laws, but now under the Melchizidec Priesthood and Christ's perfect sacrifice...
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Faith in the sacrifice of Christ to justify and reconcile us to the Father...
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Oh and as far as the Millenium...
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The saints live and reign with Christ for the Millenium. Where do they reign?
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
As far as where they reign and how I do not know. That is something that I have not gotten much revelation on.
I do not care if God destroys or renovates. From what i read and how God has spoken to me I favor the interpretation of the total destruction of this universe.
I do not care if God destroys or renovates. From what i read and how God has spoken to me I favor the interpretation of the total destruction of this universe.
I'll message you some stuff I'd like your input on Justin. I've already mentioned a few of the parts I disagree on. I respect revelation, however, and know there's only certain parts, in my spirit, that I'm supposed to know right now. Maybe you have more or maybe they fit together somehow. It actually has to do with a strain of what ifs that exist though will never occur, along the line of what John_8:32 is talking about.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Hi Justin
It seems that way to me also.
Rev 20
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away,....
No place was found for the old...yet some believe it serves its purpose in being renewed.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, jeffweeder.
First, "heaven and earth" does not mean the entire universe. To the contrary, "heaven" means the "sky" and usually refers to the atmosphere around our planet. "Earth" means the "land," or on occasion specifically, the "Land" of Isra'el, the "ground," the "soil," or the "dirt" itself.
Second, Revelation 20:11 in Greek says this:
Revelation 20:11
11 Kai eidon thronon megan leukon kai ton Katheemenon ep' auton, hou apo tou prosoopou efugen hee gee kai ho ouranos kai topos ouch heurethee autois.
Literally, it means...
11 And I-saw a-throne large/great/huge white and the Sitter upon it, whose away-from the face hurried-away the ground and the sky and a-place not was-found for-them.
Then, using the correct English order,...
11 And I saw a huge, white throne and the Sitter upon it, from whose face the ground and the sky hurried away and a place was not found for them.
The phrase "topos ouch heurethee autois," is an Aramaic idiom as can be found in Daniel 2:35: "atar laa' hishtakhach lhown." (And this also tends to prove that Revelation was originally written in either Hebrew or Aramaic.) It simply means that the dust dissipates; that there is no accumulation of it somewhere.
Third, think of how HUGE the universe is! It is estimated that there are billions of stars in a single galaxy and our star, Sol or the Sun, is just one such star. Then, it is estimated again that there are billions of galaxies in the KNOWABLE universe! So, what is this tiny speck of a planet compared to all of the space and stars and galaxies of stars in the knowable universe?! Yes, mankind is responsible for sin and the resultant death on this planet earth, but throughout the whole UNIVERSE??!!! I'm telling you: For God to destroy the whole universe and start over is WAY, WAY, WAY TOO MUCH OVER-KILL!
I can see God starting over with whatever man has touched, but we haven't gone farther than a few miles below the surface of the earth, and we've only set foot on the moon! All we've done beyond that is to send probes to the distant reaches of our solar system to investigate the other planets! That's ALL that man has touched!
Oh, we have vivid imaginations to produce such stories as Star Wars and Star Trek and the Avatar world of Pandora and other stories about space travel, but all of that is FICTION! We just like to weave, tell, and listen to or watch a good story!
It is also FICTION to think that all there is to the universe is "heaven and earth!" No, I cannot believe that God will destroy the whole universe because of the sins of a few, insignificant critters on this very tiny, small, insignificant planet among the billions and trillions and quadrillions and quintillions of stars within the KNOWN Universe. He doesn't even have to destroy the whole planet any more than He destroyed the whole planet when He sent the Flood! All He has to do is burn off the surface that mankind has touched ... which is STILL an awesomely fearsome and intimidating feat! That alone will undo all that mankind has done.
First, "heaven and earth" does not mean the entire universe. To the contrary, "heaven" means the "sky" and usually refers to the atmosphere around our planet. "Earth" means the "land," or on occasion specifically, the "Land" of Isra'el, the "ground," the "soil," or the "dirt" itself.
Second, Revelation 20:11 in Greek says this:
Revelation 20:11
11 Kai eidon thronon megan leukon kai ton Katheemenon ep' auton, hou apo tou prosoopou efugen hee gee kai ho ouranos kai topos ouch heurethee autois.
Literally, it means...
11 And I-saw a-throne large/great/huge white and the Sitter upon it, whose away-from the face hurried-away the ground and the sky and a-place not was-found for-them.
Then, using the correct English order,...
11 And I saw a huge, white throne and the Sitter upon it, from whose face the ground and the sky hurried away and a place was not found for them.
The phrase "topos ouch heurethee autois," is an Aramaic idiom as can be found in Daniel 2:35: "atar laa' hishtakhach lhown." (And this also tends to prove that Revelation was originally written in either Hebrew or Aramaic.) It simply means that the dust dissipates; that there is no accumulation of it somewhere.
Third, think of how HUGE the universe is! It is estimated that there are billions of stars in a single galaxy and our star, Sol or the Sun, is just one such star. Then, it is estimated again that there are billions of galaxies in the KNOWABLE universe! So, what is this tiny speck of a planet compared to all of the space and stars and galaxies of stars in the knowable universe?! Yes, mankind is responsible for sin and the resultant death on this planet earth, but throughout the whole UNIVERSE??!!! I'm telling you: For God to destroy the whole universe and start over is WAY, WAY, WAY TOO MUCH OVER-KILL!
I can see God starting over with whatever man has touched, but we haven't gone farther than a few miles below the surface of the earth, and we've only set foot on the moon! All we've done beyond that is to send probes to the distant reaches of our solar system to investigate the other planets! That's ALL that man has touched!
Oh, we have vivid imaginations to produce such stories as Star Wars and Star Trek and the Avatar world of Pandora and other stories about space travel, but all of that is FICTION! We just like to weave, tell, and listen to or watch a good story!
It is also FICTION to think that all there is to the universe is "heaven and earth!" No, I cannot believe that God will destroy the whole universe because of the sins of a few, insignificant critters on this very tiny, small, insignificant planet among the billions and trillions and quadrillions and quintillions of stars within the KNOWN Universe. He doesn't even have to destroy the whole planet any more than He destroyed the whole planet when He sent the Flood! All He has to do is burn off the surface that mankind has touched ... which is STILL an awesomely fearsome and intimidating feat! That alone will undo all that mankind has done.
I believe that when God brought the flood that He was so angry that he destroyed a lot of the universe too. When we see the grand canyon we think it is beautiful but it is a remnant of His wrath. When we see the crab nebula we think it is beautiful but it too is a remnant of His wrath. Sin has tainted everything in this creation and so it must be cleansed by fire. The only thing that will be saved from it is those who's sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. This is how I read the scriptures.
The sure and faithful anchor
Matthew 24:35
John 1:14
I would recommend laying hold of the word
Proverbs 3:5
BTW His blood covered all men many of which will not be there, to be where he is.
Soooo I say you have hold of a rather flimsy life line.
His blood covered all men from Adam to the last.
Dose that mean everyone goes to heaven.
Are you beginning to understand your lack of understanding?
Matthew 24:35
John 1:14
I would recommend laying hold of the word
Proverbs 3:5
BTW His blood covered all men many of which will not be there, to be where he is.
Soooo I say you have hold of a rather flimsy life line.
His blood covered all men from Adam to the last.
Dose that mean everyone goes to heaven.
Are you beginning to understand your lack of understanding?
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Justin Mangonel.
I weep for you, brother. The crab nebula IS a beautiful thing and it was an observed event in 1054 A.D. (hence its designation as "SN 1054," Super Nova in 1054 A.D.), about the time that the Eastern Orthodoxy and the Western Roman Catholic Church parted ways! But, the event is 6000 light-years away; so the actual event happened circa 4946 B.C! This, according to many biblical scholars is closer to the time of the Creation than the Flood! God paints in energy like we use water colors. I don't believe for one moment that the crab nebula is a "remnant of His wrath!" God has just made many splendors in the galaxy and in the universe of galaxies beyond! They are splendors that He meant for us to enjoy, like the Crown of Thorns Nebula! What about the sun? It's a ball of hydrogen gas with thousands of nuclear explosions like hydrogen bombs going off every second! Is that the way He made it, or is that a result of "His wrath?"
You remind me of the way I used to be in the fall when I lived in Wisconsin as a kid. I couldn't appreciate the beautiful colors of the changing autumn leaves because I saw them as leaves "dying" and falling off the trees. I wasn't looking at the bigger picture, namely that God created the seasons, too! He colored the leaves, and the TREES aren't dying; they are merely going into hibernation, awaiting the new leaves of the spring, symbolizing the Second Coming and the Resurrection!
Sure, the Grand Canyon is probably from the run-off of Flood water on the Great Plains, carving out an immense gully, but what you SHOULD be taking out of that is this: God can take even the worst things in human existence and make something beautiful out of our pain.
I've wrestled with this in the past, too, but let me ask you this: Do you think there will be deserts and icy tundras in the New Earth? Do you think that there will be briny marshes and swamps? Do you think there will be rain forests and jungles? (THINK! Be careful how you answer.)
I weep for you, brother. The crab nebula IS a beautiful thing and it was an observed event in 1054 A.D. (hence its designation as "SN 1054," Super Nova in 1054 A.D.), about the time that the Eastern Orthodoxy and the Western Roman Catholic Church parted ways! But, the event is 6000 light-years away; so the actual event happened circa 4946 B.C! This, according to many biblical scholars is closer to the time of the Creation than the Flood! God paints in energy like we use water colors. I don't believe for one moment that the crab nebula is a "remnant of His wrath!" God has just made many splendors in the galaxy and in the universe of galaxies beyond! They are splendors that He meant for us to enjoy, like the Crown of Thorns Nebula! What about the sun? It's a ball of hydrogen gas with thousands of nuclear explosions like hydrogen bombs going off every second! Is that the way He made it, or is that a result of "His wrath?"
You remind me of the way I used to be in the fall when I lived in Wisconsin as a kid. I couldn't appreciate the beautiful colors of the changing autumn leaves because I saw them as leaves "dying" and falling off the trees. I wasn't looking at the bigger picture, namely that God created the seasons, too! He colored the leaves, and the TREES aren't dying; they are merely going into hibernation, awaiting the new leaves of the spring, symbolizing the Second Coming and the Resurrection!
Sure, the Grand Canyon is probably from the run-off of Flood water on the Great Plains, carving out an immense gully, but what you SHOULD be taking out of that is this: God can take even the worst things in human existence and make something beautiful out of our pain.
I've wrestled with this in the past, too, but let me ask you this: Do you think there will be deserts and icy tundras in the New Earth? Do you think that there will be briny marshes and swamps? Do you think there will be rain forests and jungles? (THINK! Be careful how you answer.)
I more look at it like God using all the materials within the universe to create something new. Some of my reasonings: If we have new bodies and exist during and experience the world during the Millenium, won't they need to be able to equally experience the new creation? Shouldn't the new creation, then, at least be created from the same materials as the old? That doesn't really answer the question, cause God could just destroy everything and make something new out of the same materials. I more agree that it would be a recreation based on experience and God's character. I'm so used to God making things new, namely us. But he does it all over the place. He takes an old rundown building and turns it into a church or a place of ministry. He rarely calls on completely new construction projects except when there is none in the area that he needs one, or where one has been perverted and used poorly. I'm talking more so physically with missions projects, etc. but the application could also be spiritual I think, or even prophetic.
That has less to do with what I believe, but more with some of the presumptuous reasoning behind why I believe to be true could be true.
That has less to do with what I believe, but more with some of the presumptuous reasoning behind why I believe to be true could be true.
Do you really... have to bring in that being Jewish thing into all this?
The ten tribes of Israel never were Jews, and the ten tribes made up the MAJORITY of the total number of Israelites.
The ten tribes of Israel were scattered, NOT DESTROYED OFF THE EARTH. They still exist in the world, still are descedents of Israel, but still NOT Jews. So when you use words like Goyim you're actually including those of the ten lost tribes of Israel unknowingly. And in Josephus' days (100 A.D.), he said the ten tribes were still scattered abroad and were a great number of people, too many to count.
Retrobyter and veteran
Is it really necessary to bring solid food to those that haven't been weened? You're both mature yet you disagree about things your eyes have seen, things that can only be understood by the mature, deep thoughts of the Spirit. Why is it that you can't be satisfied with the knowledge yet to be reveled at it's appointed time. Your both right, the heavens testify day and night, that which the Lord has driven away He shall gather. Please both of you be wise and and hold with dignity the knowledge the Lord has blessed you with. Cast not your pearls before the swine. We all carry a crown "s" I prefer not to wave it in the face of the young. The Lord see's and knows what else really matters.
[sup]6 [/sup]Do not exalt yourself in the presence of the king,
And do not stand in the place of the great;
[sup]7 [/sup]For it is better that he say to you,
“Come up here,”
Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince,
Whom your eyes have seen.
Retrobyter
I really like the heavens,
and veteran
you can plant and water but only God breaths the breath of life into a seed that has died.
Lets be about tending the crop instead of arguing about whether its going to rain or snow tomorrow.
God Bless all
Deep waters are drawn out by the wise in heart.
They are not proclaimed
Is it really necessary to bring solid food to those that haven't been weened? You're both mature yet you disagree about things your eyes have seen, things that can only be understood by the mature, deep thoughts of the Spirit. Why is it that you can't be satisfied with the knowledge yet to be reveled at it's appointed time. Your both right, the heavens testify day and night, that which the Lord has driven away He shall gather. Please both of you be wise and and hold with dignity the knowledge the Lord has blessed you with. Cast not your pearls before the swine. We all carry a crown "s" I prefer not to wave it in the face of the young. The Lord see's and knows what else really matters.
[sup]6 [/sup]Do not exalt yourself in the presence of the king,
And do not stand in the place of the great;
[sup]7 [/sup]For it is better that he say to you,
“Come up here,”
Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince,
Whom your eyes have seen.
Retrobyter
I really like the heavens,
and veteran
you can plant and water but only God breaths the breath of life into a seed that has died.
Lets be about tending the crop instead of arguing about whether its going to rain or snow tomorrow.
God Bless all
Deep waters are drawn out by the wise in heart.
They are not proclaimed
What I have seen in scripture is that the New Heavens and New Earth are the main event and everything that leads up to that point is a prelude to what God really wants to do. This is a central doctrine of the new testament yet many people do not see it because they do not know that there is a world to come. The New Heavens and New Earth is the "Last Great Day" spoken of in the feast of Tabernacles.
And this is news to you? Any 4 year old in Sunday school could tell us the same.
Or do you simply like hearing yourself talk.
The main event is Christ on Earth. To be where He is, that's the main event.
Are you confident you'll be attending, an invitation awaits you to be seated?
If so then tell me, what awaits you in this new heaven and earth?
Or do you simply like hearing yourself talk.
The main event is Christ on Earth. To be where He is, that's the main event.
Are you confident you'll be attending, an invitation awaits you to be seated?
If so then tell me, what awaits you in this new heaven and earth?
Dear Rex,
What awaits us in the world to come is the everlasting kingdom of God. God will then be able to return us to His original plan or augment it if He wishes too. Imortality awaits us because the tree of life will be restored. Finally, all the promises God has made to us will come to pass.
What awaits us in the world to come is the everlasting kingdom of God. God will then be able to return us to His original plan or augment it if He wishes too. Imortality awaits us because the tree of life will be restored. Finally, all the promises God has made to us will come to pass.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Unless one is a pseudo-Gentile who is actually one of the Ten Tribes of Isra'el, then he/she as a true Gentile is adopted into the Jewish family because he/she is adopted into the Tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) through the Messiah Yeshua`. It is a common error to call all Isra'elites "Jews." I know that's wrong; you know that's wrong, but sometimes I still slip and say the wrong thing. I AM trying to be more cognizant of the truth, for your sake and for others like you, but I don't always remember to edit my work.
Actually, the Isra'elites who learn Yeshua` is the Messiah are also grafted into their own Olive Tree, just like the members of the Tribe of Y'hudah. See, I think the idea is a hold-over from the way Paul talked in Romans, since HE used the word "Jews" vs. the "Gentiles." He even used the terms "Jews" vs. "Greeks!" However, since he also talked about "Isra'el," I believe that it is obvious that he meant all twelve (or thirteen) tribes, not just the one (or two or three) that were "Judaea."
Shalom, Rex.
LOL! It's just my nature as a teacher. I'm the same way in my garden: I'll plant a type of seed, and even though I know that the germination of that type of seed will take between 8 and 10 days, I'm still out there checking every day! Lo and behold, up they start coming at the 8-day mark! Call it impatience, if you must, be I prefer to believe that it is simply a case of "hurry up and wait."
Unless one is a pseudo-Gentile who is actually one of the Ten Tribes of Isra'el, then he/she as a true Gentile is adopted into the Jewish family because he/she is adopted into the Tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) through the Messiah Yeshua`. It is a common error to call all Isra'elites "Jews." I know that's wrong; you know that's wrong, but sometimes I still slip and say the wrong thing. I AM trying to be more cognizant of the truth, for your sake and for others like you, but I don't always remember to edit my work.
Actually, the Isra'elites who learn Yeshua` is the Messiah are also grafted into their own Olive Tree, just like the members of the Tribe of Y'hudah. See, I think the idea is a hold-over from the way Paul talked in Romans, since HE used the word "Jews" vs. the "Gentiles." He even used the terms "Jews" vs. "Greeks!" However, since he also talked about "Isra'el," I believe that it is obvious that he meant all twelve (or thirteen) tribes, not just the one (or two or three) that were "Judaea."
Shalom, Rex.
LOL! It's just my nature as a teacher. I'm the same way in my garden: I'll plant a type of seed, and even though I know that the germination of that type of seed will take between 8 and 10 days, I'm still out there checking every day! Lo and behold, up they start coming at the 8-day mark! Call it impatience, if you must, be I prefer to believe that it is simply a case of "hurry up and wait."
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