Redemptive Suffering / Did Christ Die Spiritually?

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Alanforchrist

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Dec 25, 2007
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Alan,

Do you believe Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man? Do you believe in the Deity of Christ?


My conviction has been since the time of my salvation that Jesus NEVER sinned or became a sinner (including while on the Cross), and the simple easy reason to remember without a long theological discussion was that a sinner couldn't pay the penalty or we'd all be able to pay our own debt.

There are many scriptures that state Jesus was a Lamb without spot or blemish, a sacrifical Lamb, a sin-offering. (Ephesians 5:2) and it is the teaching in the Old Testament which was a type and shadow of Christ, the "Lamb of God".

Through out God's Word we're taught that Jesus was sinless, that He and The Father were one. (John 14:7-11) In II Corinthians 5:19 we're told that God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.

If Christ took on Satan’s nature and died spiritually (that is what the JDS doctrine teaches):

1. What happened to the Trinity? What happened to the Christ God? Did this Spiritual death affect the Father and the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus the man go to hell while Jesus God watched?

JDS teaches that Christ took on Satan's nature. Obviously that does damage to the Godhead don't you think? The Deity of Christ (Christ was no longer Deity while he was Satanic), and the work of Christ (had to be completed in Hell rather than on the Cross).

If we are going to talk about "spiritual death" lets put it in light of the scripture and define it as scripture does, or show from scripture that "spiritual death" is separation from God in no uncertain terms.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Christ is “firstborn” in the sense that he is the preeminent one over all creation. He wasn’t born again in hell. Indeed, he didn’t need to be born again in any way (John 3:3, 6–7).

The Nestorian Heresy has been used by some claiming that Jesus the man suffered while Jesus the God watched on. This flies straight in to the face of the Hypostatic Union.

1. Nestorian Heresy

One Word-Faith apologist tried saying that the Jesus-God watched as Jesus-Man became satanic and a sinner. The two were separated while Jesus-Man had died spiritually and was then raised from the dead to become born again.

This is known as the Nestorian heresy that was deemed heresy at the Chalcedon.

2 Corinthians 5:21 – Christ became a sinner

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Jesus did not literally become sin or become a sinner. God looked at him as if he were a sinner. God viewed Christ as a sin offering just as a spotless lamb in the OT was an OFFERING for SIN.

It is finished, The Veil

The Greek word used here for “finished” is "Teleo" which means, “The debt is paid in full”. That debt is yours and my sin and Jesus accomplished, completed and concluded what He was sent to do on our behalf.


teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

John 19

29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

When Christ died, the Veil to the Holy of Holies ripped from top to bottom signifying that sinful man now has direct access to God.

There was no suffereing required in Hell as direct access to God (the sacrifice and mission was complete) was restored.

Luke 23:45, Mark 15:38, Matthew 27:51

We are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ, not by fictitious sufferings in Hell.

1 Peter 1:19

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Axehead






[1]Jesus was fully God and fully man.

[2]Jesus never sinned, But He became sin for us when He took our sin and gave us God's righteouness.
Thats why He died Spiritually and went to hell, He did it so we can be born again and not have to go to hell.

[3]It is God who says Jesus dies Spiritually, And He has recorded it in the Bible.

[4]You are trying to understand the trinity with your carnal mind, And the Bible says it is a mystery.

[5]You quoted Col 1: 18., "Jesus was the firstborn fron the dead".
That alone tells us that Jesus died Spiritually, Because He wasn't the first to be raised from physical death, People in the old testament were raised from the dead, And Jesus raised the dead,
So Col 1: 18 tells us the Jesus was the first to be raised from Spiritual death, [The first to be born again].

[6]When Jesus said, "It is finished" He didn't mean redemption was finished, Or the debt is paid in full as you say.
The Greek meaning for, "It is finished", Is, Jesus carried His physical death through, He was saying His physical pain was finished.
We know redemption wasn't finished because Paul tell us that Jesus had to be raised from the dead to compleate redemption.
1 Cor 15: 14--18.


[7]If there was no need for Jesus to suffer in hell, Why does God say He did??.
Acts 2: 24 tell us that God loosed Jesus from the pains of death, But God didn't loose Jesus from the pain of physical death DID HE??.. No..NO.. Jesus died.
But God did loose Jesus from the pains of Spiritual death when He raised Jesus up Spiritually,
He was made alive in His Spirit. 1 Pet 3: 18.
He was the first to be born again, Col 1: 18.

I skimmed most of the discussion. I think Rex mentioned a lot of confusion. I think for a proper discussion to occur, there should be some clarity and equal ground found on some key terms. What does it mean for a spirit to die? Does spiritual death actually mean non existence, or does separation from God in relationship mean the same thing? Why does God/Jesus call some dead people sleeping? If our body isn't spared in this life, what does that say about Christ's work on the cross? There has to be at least some consensus on some of these questions. Otherwise, there isn't a basis for theological discussion.




[1]Spiritual death is seperation from God,
There are lots of people who aren't born again and therefore seperated from God, [spiritually dead], But they are still physically alive.
When Jesus said, "My God why hast thou forsaken Me", The Greek meaning is, "To Leave, To abandon, To forsake".
Jesus knew the emptiness of the absence of God when He Spiritually died, But He was still very active in His Spirut'soul, As he was being tormented in Hell Acts 2: 24.
After He was Spiritually made alive, [Born again] 1 Pet 3: 18,
He proclaimed the victory over the devil and the spirits, 1 Pet 3: 19.
All this was before He was physically raised.

[2]The reason Jesus call dead people, "Sleeping", Is because thier bodies are at rest like a sleeping person.
At death, Only the body dies, The Spirit/soul lives on in the place we have chosen while on the earth.

Our bodies are our earthly suites, It is just the shell that we live in, We are a Spirit who has a soul, "The mind will and emotions" and we live in a body until it dies.

At the resurrection those who have died will get a new glorified body, those who go up in the rapture, will be changed into a new glorious body, One that will last for all eternity.
 

martinlawrencescott

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Apr 6, 2011
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Cool, now that there's some (not complete) equal ground in terminology, I'm still having trouble looking through the past several posts, what is being disagreed on or discussed. I see a jumble of "you're wrong" -tons of scripture, "your personal walk with God must be false" statements. I can't see where a conversation started or where one is taking place. I see evaluations of knowledge by one, and minor disagreements of certain parts that are meant by one to disregard the entire post of another. Once you understand what you're actually talking about, you, and the other, can then go about how you are going to talk about it. It's called a conversation. I don't see that in this thread.
 

Nikos57

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These posts that show that Jesus did not die spiritually really are powerful and prove the point. Thanks for helping me with this false doctrine.