Have the leadership of the church become pawns of the Devil?

I'll tell you the problem Justin it isn't the church, or the people it's your unwillingness to listen.
Overcome your desire to walk your own path, and seek what the Lord as been laying before you

Where the paths meet
Your way
or
The Lords way

Proverbs 8
8 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
[sup]2 [/sup]She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.

This is more true than you want to admit Justin....

FYI, it's PAWN, not PON. And the answer to the question is.... just what kind of example do you propose? and since when does a church leadership tell anyone to do anything with any kind of authority? They have no power to punish anyone for disobedience other than to ban them from their congregation, in which case does anyone really want to fall under that kind of leadership anyway? Anyone who allows a control freak to tell them what to do is his own worst enemy.

To the main point, I would agree and say yes. However, the devil is a pawn of God at this point, and all he can do is benefit a true believer in testing their faith. So even if you have a false shepherd at the top, true Christians who remain in fellowship with God can only benefit from the persecution they experience there. So it's a failed tactic, and one that's losing it's usefulness even in a Christian beneficial standpoint. In that sense, the only believers who should be in danger would be the new believers who don't understand their authority in Christ and basic doctrine. This has been a big problem, however, these people are in Christ's camp and the penalty for leading these young ones astray is big, and God is watching this very closely. God is very protective of his own, especially the young in both flesh and spirit and we should expect the enemy thwarted based on God's character and protectiveness.

I have my own views as to how to deal with leadership concerning my rights as a Christian. "If God tells me to do one thing, and the church leadership tells me to do another, who should I obey?" Being in leadership at church, this has happened many times. The general rule is to do what the church leadership suggests. The exception is if their rule is contradicting God's law. I don't pray in tongues in churches that don't believe or condone the speaking in tongues. I would contradict my conscience to do so, because I respect church leadership. I believe the same with the rest of the gifts. I won't however, unless God leads me, place myself under a church authority where my freedoms are greatly limited.

That is the point; when we place ourselves under leadership, we are held accountable by our decision to obey our leaders. A direct order from a leader even over rules what I feel the spirit is telling me to do, unless the order is contradictory to God's law and the Spirit. Many times I'll feel lead by the Spirit to do something, but I can't because of leadership direction. I have never felt lead to oppose leaders who do this, and thus rebel against their authority, and it should be this way to keep order in the church. That's all without the exception that what they are leading me to do is strictly opposing God and the Spirit. Issues where I obey leadership are such as, "I feel strongly I should choose this song for worship, but my pastor wants this other song instead." An exception however could be, "I feel strongly in my spirit not to murder people, but my pastor wants me to murder his wife who has been giving him problems lately (very possible)."

If I feel strongly enough against the church leadership and their vision, I have the right and authority to leave the church and place myself under a leadership that is acceptable to the Biblical standards and vision God has given me. I am aware God sometimes asks us to limit our rights even more and remain under an antagonistic leadership for the testing and growth of ourselves and/or the leadership. These are just some of the principles I live by and how I've experienced them in the church.

Who cares?

I'm done with church leadership in my life. Does that sound right to you? I don't need someone telling me what to do, and I sure as hell won't take the word of a man over God. Are you kidding me!? You would actually listen to the guidance of a man when God is speaking something else to you? Incredible. Sounds like you don't trust your hearing.

If the spirit is leading, I am following. Forget those who call themselves 'leaders' in the church today; they are far from attaining any sort of true authority. The only authority they have is what you have given them. Wake up. Rise Up. Are you going to bind yourself to a rotting corpse? I've heard your argument so many times that I want to go puke in the bathroom: listen to leadership unless it contradicts the word of God. What for? What are you learning, except how to turn a deaf ear to the spirit?

The word is living. It can speak. And, if you listen, you will hear it.

I think the problem with the church is that no one listens to God anymore. They listen to men who claim to speak for God.

I'm going to drive this one home.

"The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them." (Ezekiel 34:4)

I see a whole lot of watered down philosophy that has left the people so weak that they can barely lift their voices to sing with God. I'm jaded, I know. I left the church long ago because I saw what it had become. At any major church that I've attended the prayer about tithing is longer than any other prayer. I've seen the emphasis shift from truth to deception, and people are buying it up.

Do you think cruelty merely means physical brutality?

How cruel is it to feed your people crumbs, when bread is available... and then have the audacity to ask for payment in the form of a 'gift' to God. The sad part of this is that the 'pastors' of these days have only found crumbs, if that. It's a blanket statement. I'm sure there are exceptions. I hope to God that there are.

So why do I care?

"And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered." (Ezekiel 34:5)

I care because God has planted a love for the people inside of me, and I do not want to see them utterly destroyed. As always, I ask for a remnant to be saved. I know that God created humanity and within them is the potential for light, no matter how far they have sunk into darkness. I know that the fire can burn inside of them again. I know that if pour my heart out, intercession is possible. I didn't know the extent of this until last night.

So far people just ignore the writing. I'm not sure why. What I am saying is true and I pray that people begin to understand this. You have become "meat to all the beasts of the field." Your skin is being eaten while you are still alive. You are wasting away spiritually... so out of contact with the Lord that you have chosen to obey a man rather than God.

And then you turn on those he sends to help you.

It is the same as it has always been. The cycle will repeat itself until it is ended by the hand of God.

You have traded true spirituality for a man made tradition. You teach the doctrines of Men.

I'll pray to God wherever, whenever, however I am called. No man, tradition, or spirit will hold me down or bind me. Satan knows he can never take my tongue because it belongs to God. And - HE HAS TRIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No power except what you have given him; no authority except what you have given him.

I hope someone, somewhere, just said...' wow, I never realized that.'

I feel lead to place myself under the current church authority I'm under. We each should do how we feel lead. I'm not going knock someone who is convicted to wait outside our current church structure, however I still promote the church experience to a new believer. Sure they'll probably get offended and leave, but generally people aren't willing to disciple them on a personal basis, and there are still a number of churches out there preaching fundamental truths.

Of course you should always obey what God is speaking to you!

Axehead said:

Of course you should always obey what God is speaking to you!

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Excuse me but I thought only Jesus, Moses and George Burns talked with God. Since God never actually talked to me I have to believe Jesus [ also God ] when He gave all power and authority to His apostles/ successors [ Luke 10; 16 ] [ Matt.28:18-20 ] [ 2 Cor. 5:20 ] [ Heb. 5:1 ] [ Heb. 2:17 ] we see where the apostles also passed this authority to others in that they consecrated other priests ,for example Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Titus and Matthias see - Acts 13:3, 14: 22, 1:24-26 and Titus 1:5. Who does your church or cult follow or are you one without a church as in man-made affiliation , Jesus said where two, three or more are together in my name their I will be in their mist.

This topic is kinda on my heart today. I felt lead to take a hiatus from the church I go to. My vision for the church conflicts with my pastor. More so, I share my pastors vision and feel his course conflicts with his vision for the church. Regardless, I have let him be aware of this for about 3/4 year under his leadership and have since stepped down while remaining in the church. I still have good relations with the pastor and the rest of the congregation, but I finally felt the freedom to leave, and to go somewhere I know my rights and freedoms would be respected (Mostly regarding praise and worship). However, I don't feel called to any other church in ministry. Kind of a weird conundrum, but I'm trying to be obedient, and I say hiatus because I know I'm supposed to go back eventually. Just a testimony of how I feel lead to leave the church I go to, not in a usurpation sort of way. I'll keep it private between myself and the pastor and select leadership, as not to cause disorder. I'm putting in my two weeks before I go, so my pastor has time to replace me in the area of music ministry. If the pastor lets me, I would still like to be involved there in the fledgling drama department to assist in their Christmas production development. But as far as a church and ministerial covering goes, I don't think I'm supposed to be there as of now. While I'm gone, I plan to attend a church that I trust well and performs in the area of homeless and needy ministries. Like I said, I don't feel called to this place, but I feel lead to go there until it's safe for me to return to the church I am at, where I do feel called. I don't know if that makes sense, but it feels right in my spirit, and even doctrinally, concerning the avoidance of usurpation of authority and coverings.

neophyte said:

Excuse me but I thought only Jesus, Moses and George Burns talked with God. Since God never actually talked to me I have to believe Jesus [ also God ] when He gave all power and authority to His apostles/ successors [ Luke 10; 16 ] [ Matt.28:18-20 ] [ 2 Cor. 5:20 ] [ Heb. 5:1 ] [ Heb. 2:17 ] we see where the apostles also passed this authority to others in that they consecrated other priests ,for example Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Titus and Matthias see - Acts 13:3, 14: 22, 1:24-26 and Titus 1:5. Who does your church or cult follow or are you one without a church as in man-made affiliation , Jesus said where two, three or more are together in my name their I will be in their mist.

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Mat_18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I (Jesus) in the midst of them.

I just love the simplicity of Christ.

I do not believe all of the church leadership has become pawns of Satan as you put it. I believe though there are so who have came under the influence of Satan by either not being called by God or falling to temptation and sin and thus corrupting themselves. Yet there is still a lot of godly leadership out there working diligently for the Lord.

Can I suggest that in too many cases, church leadership is dysfunctional and not at all in keeping with what the scripture teaches. I say that because I have noted that NOWHERE in scripture will you find "a pastor" leading the church in the New Testament, especially one brought in from outside the church and who is paid a salary.

There are 25 verses that talk about leadership in the church and three ministries are referred to. That of the Apostle, the Prophet and Elders. Not once does it mention the pastor. Now, what I want to know is, if the pastor is to lead the church, why did the NT church never mention him once in terms of leadership? To me the answer is obvious. Because they NEVER had a pastor running the church.

So whose job was it to run the church? Simple. When a new church was founded, it was usually the Apostle who founded the church and his prophetic companion who gave him assistance. At some stage when they considered the church to be mature enough, they left and in their place, Elders were appointed FROM AMONG THE CONGREGATION. They did not bring in " a pastor" from outside of the church.

These Elders, who were all older men who fulfilled the requirement as laid out in Timothy and Titus were appointed by the laying on of hands. They were ALWAYS plural and they were responsible for the oversight of the church, teaching, shepherding and correction.

The term "pastor" which is Latin for "shepherd" is only mentioned once in the scriptures and that is in Ephesians 4:11. It has no connotation whatsoever of leadership of the church. The word "shepherd" means one who care for the sheep and their physical well-being You do not need to lead the church to do this. The root word for shepherd is quite different to the root word for Elder. If they were one and the same the same root word would have been used.

Please note too that "pastor" along with the other ministries in Ephesians 4:11 were just that, ministries, not positions and certainly not appointed by man. If you have not been anointed by God with these ministries, all the appointing by man won't give them to you because they are all a gift of the ascended Christ.

As far as people being paid to do a job in the church, the NT church only financially supported apostles who could not support themselves whilst they were travelling and you will notice that Paul supported himself once he had established a base to work from and widows who devoted themselves to prayer for the church because they could not earn money as they spent all day praying.

One wonders if we are required to submit to leadership that is contrary to God's revealed word If they are wrong on this fundamental issue, what other things are they wrong about?

Justin Mangonel said:

Hi all,

I have been in different churches and the reason that i have moved on from each one is that the leadership of the church would only allow God to move just so much in my life and no further.

I started out in a Free will Baptist church but when was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues the wanted me to leave.

Is it possible that one of the main tools that the Devil uses to fight the Holy Spirit is the actual leadership of the normative Christian church? Does Satan use ministers to corral God's people and keep them from maturing into the fulness and stature of Jesus Christ?

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the devil also mimics the holy spirit. there are a lot of things in todays church people do that is tapping into the source of satan but is disgussed as the holy spirit.
remember, there are more signs and wonders contributed to the devil in scripture than God.

Isn't that a rather broad statement Gods voice?

So you are all agreeing that Jesus never established a church more precise ''His Church" is that what you all are saying?