Paul's Thorn was NOT a Sickness

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lesjude

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Please do not confuse a messenger of Satan sent to buffet him with Galatians 6:14-15. Thorn in the flesh is never used in scripture to speak of a sickness in OT or NT. See Numbers 33:55, Judges 23:13, and Judges 2:3.
See 2 Corinthians 12:7. The word in the Greek for messenger, aggelos, never refers to a sickness or disease, but a person or personality. Paul also tells why the person/personality was sent. Most do not qualify for the thorn.
2 Corinthians 12:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Thorn in the Flesh

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
The result of this messenger from Satan was all the violent persecutiom against Paul. This is in keeping with what the meaning is in both OT and NT.


Galatians 4:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What[a] then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

These verses cannot be referring to the thorn in the flesh because it is the Greek aorist tense which makes it clear that the issue in question has ceased to exist. The "thorn" was not taken away. Notice the use of "was", past tense, meaning Paul was healed of what ever it was. The Bible does not say a believer will not get sick, but that if they do Jesus will heal them.
The phrase pluck out your eyes is a figure of speech like give you the shirt off my back. Even if it does refer to a disease Paul refers to it as cured/healed. Galatians 6:11 the word comes from the Greek pelikos which is used in the Septuagint in Zechariah 2:2 meaning length/width. In Galatians 6:11 it is not the size of the letters but its length.
 

whitestone

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Yeah, Paul's eyes evidently gave him a lot of trouble to refer to it like that. To be constantly 'poked' by pain, unable to present a convincing personal presence because of swelling watering or redness, the Galations were even willing to sacrifice their own eyes for him. The personality that comes forth in righteousness within Him Paul knew would develop much better with the constant pain 'buffeting' he suffered. Just as Jesus suffered. I also suffer from 'satan' messenger buffeting me by a severe spinal pain for forty years. Like Paul, there is no better way to be reminded of God's Grace by which our faith is made perfect.
Thank you for the pain Lord! It just makes us want you more :)
 

lesjude

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Yeah, Paul's eyes evidently gave him a lot of trouble to refer to it like that. To be constantly 'poked' by pain, unable to present a convincing personal presence because of swelling watering or redness, the Galations were even willing to sacrifice their own eyes for him. The personality that comes forth in righteousness within Him Paul knew would develop much better with the constant pain 'buffeting' he suffered. Just as Jesus suffered. I also suffer from 'satan' messenger buffeting me by a severe spinal pain for forty years. Like Paul, there is no better way to be reminded of God's Grace by which our faith is made perfect.
Thank you for the pain Lord! It just makes us want you more :)
Please read the post again because you missed a lot. Here are some references that will help:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17084-answering-objections-to-physical-healing-in-the-atonement/
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16158-only-believe-and-stop-the-negative/
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15920-what-it-is-impossible-to-please-god-without/
 

7angels

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Aug 13, 2011
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lesjude,

your explaination is too unclear to prove your OP point successfully.

God bless

just a secondary thought. gal 4:14-15 is not referring to eye trouble.

God bless
 

Rex

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Oct 17, 2012
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I understood, and I seen your post about the Word, your right 7angels
It's alive Hebrews 4:12 and not enough people pay attention.

No offense intended whitestone, with my reply to 7angels, I miss read myself.
But as I was quickly reading it at first I realized there's a message here for me,
So I carefully studied it,
 

martinlawrencescott

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Apr 6, 2011
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I always considered Paul's thorn in the flesh to be schizophrenia. I believe Timothy was someone Paul made up to alleviate his stress concerning the church. It helped him to make up someone who was doing things right. Several of Paul's "missionary journeys" took place in his head while he was stuck in the Roman prison system. This "curse" turned out to be a blessing by allowing Paul to look crazy enough to belong in prison, but he spoke truth which captivated his audiences.

I'm completely BSing here. Hopefully someone found that funny.

I'm reading the posts and am not sure what I think it was as of yet. It seems pretty clear it was a form of persecution, but what form exactly- I can't agree or disagree yet. I haven't studied this one enough to give anything but comical input.
 

THE Gypsy

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Jul 27, 2011
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I always considered Paul's thorn in the flesh to be schizophrenia. I believe Timothy was someone Paul made up to alleviate his stress concerning the church. It helped him to make up someone who was doing things right. Several of Paul's "missionary journeys" took place in his head while he was stuck in the Roman prison system. This "curse" turned out to be a blessing by allowing Paul to look crazy enough to belong in prison, but he spoke truth which captivated his audiences.

I'm completely BSing here. Hopefully someone found that funny.

I'm reading the posts and am not sure what I think it was as of yet. It seems pretty clear it was a form of persecution, but what form exactly- I can't agree or disagree yet. I haven't studied this one enough to give anything but comical input.

I needed that!
smilie_girl_101.gif
 

Alanforchrist

Member
Dec 25, 2007
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Please do not confuse a messenger of Satan sent to buffet him with Galatians 6:14-15. Thorn in the flesh is never used in scripture to speak of a sickness in OT or NT. See Numbers 33:55, Judges 23:13, and Judges 2:3.
See 2 Corinthians 12:7. The word in the Greek for messenger, aggelos, never refers to a sickness or disease, but a person or personality. Paul also tells why the person/personality was sent. Most do not qualify for the thorn.
2 Corinthians 12:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Thorn in the Flesh

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
The result of this messenger from Satan was all the violent persecutiom against Paul. This is in keeping with what the meaning is in both OT and NT.


Galatians 4:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What[a] then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

These verses cannot be referring to the thorn in the flesh because it is the Greek aorist tense which makes it clear that the issue in question has ceased to exist. The "thorn" was not taken away. Notice the use of "was", past tense, meaning Paul was healed of what ever it was. The Bible does not say a believer will not get sick, but that if they do Jesus will heal them.
The phrase pluck out your eyes is a figure of speech like give you the shirt off my back. Even if it does refer to a disease Paul refers to it as cured/healed. Galatians 6:11 the word comes from the Greek pelikos which is used in the Septuagint in Zechariah 2:2 meaning length/width. In Galatians 6:11 it is not the size of the letters but its length.




Jesus did take Paul's thorn away.
The original Greek text meaning is, Jesus told Paul that His supernatural power wil accomplish what Paul requested.
So Paul said he rejoices when he gets atacted because he would see the deliverance that God provides.

Yeah, Paul's eyes evidently gave him a lot of trouble to refer to it like that. To be constantly 'poked' by pain, unable to present a convincing personal presence because of swelling watering or redness, the Galations were even willing to sacrifice their own eyes for him. The personality that comes forth in righteousness within Him Paul knew would develop much better with the constant pain 'buffeting' he suffered. Just as Jesus suffered. I also suffer from 'satan' messenger buffeting me by a severe spinal pain for forty years. Like Paul, there is no better way to be reminded of God's Grace by which our faith is made perfect.
Thank you for the pain Lord! It just makes us want you more :)



Jesus delivered Paul from his thorn, Why don't you let Him deliver you??.
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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Jesus did take Paul's thorn away.
The original Greek text meaning is, Jesus told Paul that His supernatural power wil accomplish what Paul requested.
So Paul said he rejoices when he gets atacted because he would see the deliverance that God provides.

Jesus delivered Paul from his thorn, Why don't you let Him deliver you??.

Alan, my man, who gave Paul this thorn?

2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Why did Paul take pleasure in his sicknesses and disease? Instead of taking away the thorn, Jesus said, "my grace is sufficient for thee".

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Doesn't look like it departed or was taken away even after entreating the Lord 3 times.

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
 

whitestone

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Apr 3, 2011
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Strange theory, that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" wasn't his eye problem. What is the point trying to hypotheticalize that? Your grasp of Greek tenses needs improved; aorist means "began and continued". Not "was". That is called "punctilear", a point in time. That is the only way the tense makes sense anyway, in keeping with the obviousness of the thorn in the flesh being Paul's ongoing eye trouble which began at the blast of Glory of Christ that blinded him. Everyone can relate to that, just as we all suffer in the flesh. O the simplicity that is in Christ!
 

lesjude

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May 8, 2012
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Alan, my man, who gave Paul this thorn?

2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Why did Paul take pleasure in his sicknesses and disease? Instead of taking away the thorn, Jesus said, "my grace is sufficient for thee".

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Doesn't look like it departed or was taken away even after entreating the Lord 3 times.

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

2 Corinthians 12:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


Paul refers to his weakness meaning his own abilities to withstand the violent persecution i.e. beatings and being stoned do cause physical issues that could take time to heal (part of the thorn), travel, and preaching/teaching the gospel with signs following without the Holy Spirit. Note he contrasts weakness and strength not sickness and health. Here is where he boasted. Note sickness is not included. 2 Corinthians 11:22-32.
If fact in verse 30 infirmities is translated accurately as weaknesses.
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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2 Corinthians 12:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


Paul refers to his weakness meaning his own abilities to withstand the violent persecution i.e. beatings and being stoned do cause physical issues that could take time to heal (part of the thorn), travel, and preaching/teaching the gospel with signs following without the Holy Spirit. Note he contrasts weakness and strength not sickness and health. Here is where he boasted. Note sickness is not included. 2 Corinthians 11:22-32.
If fact in verse 30 infirmities is translated accurately as weaknesses.

I could see that. That sickness comes from beatings and being stoned. Richard Wurmbrand got tuberculosis when he was in prison being tortured mercilessly and having iron rods stuck in him. Eventually, he had to have 1 lung removed and part of his other one. He ended up living till about 95. Richard was a man of great faith.

The brethren in the early church were not perfect nor did they avoid all sickness. James talks about calling for the elders if any are sick among you. Timothy apparently had a bad stomach.

So, you're not saying that Believers don't get sick, right? You're just saying that they don't have to stay sick. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you,
Axehead
 

lesjude

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May 8, 2012
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I could see that. That sickness comes from beatings and being stoned. Richard Wurmbrand got tuberculosis when he was in prison being tortured mercilessly and having iron rods stuck in him. Eventually, he had to have 1 lung removed and part of his other one. He ended up living till about 95. Richard was a man of great faith.

The brethren in the early church were not perfect nor did they avoid all sickness. James talks about calling for the elders if any are sick among you. Timothy apparently had a bad stomach.

So, you're not saying that Believers don't get sick, right? You're just saying that they don't have to stay sick. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you,
Axehead
You are correct.

Strange theory, that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" wasn't his eye problem. What is the point trying to hypotheticalize that? Your grasp of Greek tenses needs improved; aorist means "began and continued". Not "was". That is called "punctilear", a point in time. That is the only way the tense makes sense anyway, in keeping with the obviousness of the thorn in the flesh being Paul's ongoing eye trouble which began at the blast of Glory of Christ that blinded him. Everyone can relate to that, just as we all suffer in the flesh. O the simplicity that is in Christ!
No, it is the Greek aorist indicative indicating brief completed action.

Strange theory, that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" wasn't his eye problem. What is the point trying to hypotheticalize that? Your grasp of Greek tenses needs improved; aorist means "began and continued". Not "was". That is called "punctilear", a point in time. That is the only way the tense makes sense anyway, in keeping with the obviousness of the thorn in the flesh being Paul's ongoing eye trouble which began at the blast of Glory of Christ that blinded him. Everyone can relate to that, just as we all suffer in the flesh. O the simplicity that is in Christ!
No, it is the aorist indicative which denotes brief completed past action not the aorist subjunctive.
 

Spirit Covenant

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Nov 5, 2012
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This is not a mystery it is contained in the scripture. Paul wanted to glory in the flesh and the Lord would not allow it. That is all it was and all it is. The word Aggelos is messenger and the word satan is adversary.
 

Alanforchrist

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Dec 25, 2007
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Alan, my man, who gave Paul this thorn?

2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Why did Paul take pleasure in his sicknesses and disease? Instead of taking away the thorn, Jesus said, "my grace is sufficient for thee".

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Doesn't look like it departed or was taken away even after entreating the Lord 3 times.

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.



[1]Paul never said he took pleasure in sickness, STOP TWISTING THE BIBLE.

[2]The reason Paul took pleasure in trouble, Was because he knew he would see the power of God deliver him. As Jesus told him He would.
Nowhere dose 2 Cor 12 say that the Lord didn't deliver Paul.