The "HE" of Daniel 9:27
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rare I'm sureTrekson said:
I don't have much confidence in someones interpretations that sees a whole created world existing and be destroyed between gen verse 1 and 2
I've seen him mention it a couple of times.
to my knowledge 70 has always come after 69 but thats me and I certainly don't kid myself into believing I can change minds or hearts.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Bob.
HOWEVER, he has made some unfortunate blunders that detract heavily from any good that may have come out of his thesis.
His first blunder is in his assumption that "God redefined Isra'el by making Gentile believers in Christ the heirs of Abraham." Then he said, "By doing this, God will be able to fulfill the unconditional covenant He gave to Abraham." The problem is that the one does not supercede the other nor does it take it away. Just because God ADDED Gentiles to His Kingdom doesn't mean that he redefined Isra'el! If I could talk to him, I would remind him that God NEVER recinds His promises! (Romans 11:29.)
Again, in the section headed with the words "This Land is My Land," He said, "Few Christians today understand this point: '...[The Lord said to Israel] the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants.' (Leviticus 25:23) Many people believe that God's promise to Abraham is still binding, and they believe that modern Israel is entitled to the land that was inhabited by the Palestinians for the past few centuries. This is not true! God did not grant Canaan to Israel without conditions. (Leviticus 18; Deuteronomy 28)." I find this an incredible statement! It's incredible for its lack of understanding when it comes to the promises made to the Patriarchs and incredible for its lack of sensitivity to Isra'el and her plight with her surrounding Arab/Muslim neighbors (who are not the LEAST bit "neighborly")! The word "Palestine" comes from the word "Plishtim," which was also transliterated into English as "Philistine!" They were to whom the Romans gave Isra'el's land away when Isra'el was taken captive and distributed to all the nations under Rome's control during the Diaspora. The Mo'aviym (Moabites) called "Idumea" (after "Edom") also came in and seized much of the land. These were the relatives of Herod's family. The Land is PART of the Abrahamic Covenant, which passed on to Yitschaq (Isaac) and then to Ya`aqov (Jacob)/Isra'el! It's just antagonistic and unloving to the Jewish people to say otherwise.
He also makes a terrible interpretation of prophecy in the Tanakh (OT prophecy), separating the prophecies into Plans A, B, and C, as though God didn't know what was going to happen! Plan A, the original plan God made with Isra'el when they left Egypt was "irreparably ruined." Gabriel, he said, revealed a Plan B to Daniel that was revealed to Ezekiel. This, too, the new Isra'el after the Captivity failed to fulfill because they wouldn't cooperate with God. So, God moved on to Plan C. Ridiculous! God doesn't make "contingency plans!"
Furthermore, he says that Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. (a "Sunday" year) decree was the decree that Gavri'el was talking about in Dan. 9. That's kind of hard for me to swallow. See, I've been doing a lot of research lately into the book of Ezra, and I've come to the conclusion that the Temple was built 118 years later than scholars think it was. It was not during Daryavesh I (Darius I) but Daryavesh II! Just read Ezra chapters 4 through 6! That would mean that 457 B.C. would be during the time of Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) I instead of Artachshashta II which was PRIOR to Daryavesh II! It was during that time that the returning Jews were being restrained from building by ORDER of Artachshashta!! The first Artachshashta is mentioned in chapter 4! The Temple was not rebuilt until chapter 6! Ezra's Artachshashta wasn't until chapter 7, AFTER Daryavesh II!
So, even the most scholarly presentation can be wrong if it starts from wrong premises.
Well, I've gone through the page, even printed it. (It's actually 42 pages in length printed!) He does present a rather scholarly view and I can't fault him at all on his Seven Clocks given by God. I believe that he rightly counts the years and Sevens and Yowveeliym (Jubilees).Saint said:
HOWEVER, he has made some unfortunate blunders that detract heavily from any good that may have come out of his thesis.
His first blunder is in his assumption that "God redefined Isra'el by making Gentile believers in Christ the heirs of Abraham." Then he said, "By doing this, God will be able to fulfill the unconditional covenant He gave to Abraham." The problem is that the one does not supercede the other nor does it take it away. Just because God ADDED Gentiles to His Kingdom doesn't mean that he redefined Isra'el! If I could talk to him, I would remind him that God NEVER recinds His promises! (Romans 11:29.)
Again, in the section headed with the words "This Land is My Land," He said, "Few Christians today understand this point: '...[The Lord said to Israel] the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants.' (Leviticus 25:23) Many people believe that God's promise to Abraham is still binding, and they believe that modern Israel is entitled to the land that was inhabited by the Palestinians for the past few centuries. This is not true! God did not grant Canaan to Israel without conditions. (Leviticus 18; Deuteronomy 28)." I find this an incredible statement! It's incredible for its lack of understanding when it comes to the promises made to the Patriarchs and incredible for its lack of sensitivity to Isra'el and her plight with her surrounding Arab/Muslim neighbors (who are not the LEAST bit "neighborly")! The word "Palestine" comes from the word "Plishtim," which was also transliterated into English as "Philistine!" They were to whom the Romans gave Isra'el's land away when Isra'el was taken captive and distributed to all the nations under Rome's control during the Diaspora. The Mo'aviym (Moabites) called "Idumea" (after "Edom") also came in and seized much of the land. These were the relatives of Herod's family. The Land is PART of the Abrahamic Covenant, which passed on to Yitschaq (Isaac) and then to Ya`aqov (Jacob)/Isra'el! It's just antagonistic and unloving to the Jewish people to say otherwise.
He also makes a terrible interpretation of prophecy in the Tanakh (OT prophecy), separating the prophecies into Plans A, B, and C, as though God didn't know what was going to happen! Plan A, the original plan God made with Isra'el when they left Egypt was "irreparably ruined." Gabriel, he said, revealed a Plan B to Daniel that was revealed to Ezekiel. This, too, the new Isra'el after the Captivity failed to fulfill because they wouldn't cooperate with God. So, God moved on to Plan C. Ridiculous! God doesn't make "contingency plans!"
Furthermore, he says that Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. (a "Sunday" year) decree was the decree that Gavri'el was talking about in Dan. 9. That's kind of hard for me to swallow. See, I've been doing a lot of research lately into the book of Ezra, and I've come to the conclusion that the Temple was built 118 years later than scholars think it was. It was not during Daryavesh I (Darius I) but Daryavesh II! Just read Ezra chapters 4 through 6! That would mean that 457 B.C. would be during the time of Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) I instead of Artachshashta II which was PRIOR to Daryavesh II! It was during that time that the returning Jews were being restrained from building by ORDER of Artachshashta!! The first Artachshashta is mentioned in chapter 4! The Temple was not rebuilt until chapter 6! Ezra's Artachshashta wasn't until chapter 7, AFTER Daryavesh II!
So, even the most scholarly presentation can be wrong if it starts from wrong premises.
Hi Roy, hope you have a blessed day. Thanks for taking the time to respond to this study. When I first posted the link the thing I was most taken by is the authors take on the “seven clocks” and their impact on our understanding of Gods time; maybe I should have make myself a little more clear on that.
Since that time I’ve read several of Wilson's different studies and like all scholars I find nuggets of understanding which give new insight and areas of differing views where I think he is mistaken in his perceptive. Seems to be a pattern in the study of Yahweh’s word; none of us have a clear pictures yet!
Regarding Wilsons comments of making Gentiles heirs of Abraham; yes I think he is on the wrong track and the whole misunderstanding is the meaning of the word Gentile. To me there are only two groups of people in the world; those who believe in the Word and those who don’t. To the Jews (tribe of Judah) it seems to be those who are circumcised (Torah believers) and those who are uncircumcised (unbelievers). I still believe that Yahweh people are the descendents of Jacob and Yeshua says those are the only ones that He came for. Because of this I think Gentiles reflect those decedents of Jacob which were dispersed into the world (lost ten tribes) and have forgotten their origin and purpose; in Hos 1 God says they are not His people and He is not their God, yet they will be like the sands of the sea which cannot be measured or numbered and the future He will call them Children of the living God (Children of Yeshua). These are the same decedents that God says will be the fullness of the nations in Genesis 48:19 “Melo ha”goyim”. Yahweh tells us that He will accept any unbeliever who lives by the laws of His covenant but still I think the principal children of God are the decedents of Jacob.
Regarding the Land; that was a unilateral Blood Covenant (unconditional) made by Yahweh and cannot be revoked as long as Yahweh lives which likely will be a long time J
I’m really going to have to think about your understanding of the decree to rebuild because in my mind it was made in 457BC and fits well with the “Sunday Year” teaching of Wilson.
The one thing I’m really struggling with is Wilson's comments of Daniel 8:23 and the fact that the stern faced king is the end time antichrist and not Antiochus IV; as I remember it is your conclusion as well that Antiochus is in fact the one who rises up at the end of the kingdoms of the four that took power after Alexandra.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Since that time I’ve read several of Wilson's different studies and like all scholars I find nuggets of understanding which give new insight and areas of differing views where I think he is mistaken in his perceptive. Seems to be a pattern in the study of Yahweh’s word; none of us have a clear pictures yet!
Regarding Wilsons comments of making Gentiles heirs of Abraham; yes I think he is on the wrong track and the whole misunderstanding is the meaning of the word Gentile. To me there are only two groups of people in the world; those who believe in the Word and those who don’t. To the Jews (tribe of Judah) it seems to be those who are circumcised (Torah believers) and those who are uncircumcised (unbelievers). I still believe that Yahweh people are the descendents of Jacob and Yeshua says those are the only ones that He came for. Because of this I think Gentiles reflect those decedents of Jacob which were dispersed into the world (lost ten tribes) and have forgotten their origin and purpose; in Hos 1 God says they are not His people and He is not their God, yet they will be like the sands of the sea which cannot be measured or numbered and the future He will call them Children of the living God (Children of Yeshua). These are the same decedents that God says will be the fullness of the nations in Genesis 48:19 “Melo ha”goyim”. Yahweh tells us that He will accept any unbeliever who lives by the laws of His covenant but still I think the principal children of God are the decedents of Jacob.
Regarding the Land; that was a unilateral Blood Covenant (unconditional) made by Yahweh and cannot be revoked as long as Yahweh lives which likely will be a long time J
I’m really going to have to think about your understanding of the decree to rebuild because in my mind it was made in 457BC and fits well with the “Sunday Year” teaching of Wilson.
The one thing I’m really struggling with is Wilson's comments of Daniel 8:23 and the fact that the stern faced king is the end time antichrist and not Antiochus IV; as I remember it is your conclusion as well that Antiochus is in fact the one who rises up at the end of the kingdoms of the four that took power after Alexandra.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
The "he" of Daniel 9:27 is NOT Christ Jesus. The very Daniel 11 verses that I quoted is direct proof.Saint said:
So it's like I said, by simply continuing to read in the Book of Daniel PAST chapter 9 to include chapter 11 settles the matter easily.
Talking without knowledge again I see, about the Gap theory of Gen.1.Rex said:
But what does that have to do with the argument I present here with the Daniel 11 evidence? Nothing, and that's the point. Your attack is false since you've totally bypassed the Daniel 11 Scripture evidence, which obviously reveals you're following an agenda and not concerned with staying in God's Word.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Bob.
I hope you had a good Christmas. I celebrate both Chanukkah and Christmas and Sukkot. I personally believe (although proving it would be difficult) that Chanukkah and Christmas coincided the year before Yeshua` was born. Furthermore, Christmas/Chanukkah was not the birth of Yeshua` but rather His CONCEPTION! I believe that His birth 288 days later (the human gestation period) at the time of Sukkot, the festival of Tabernacles or Booths, when God came to tabernacle with us.
Regarding the building of the 2nd Temple, we read this in Ezra:
Ezra 4:1-24
4:1 When the enemies of Y’hudah and Binyamin heard that the people from the exile were building a temple to Adonai the God of Isra’el, 2 they approached Z’rubavel and the heads of fathers’ clans and said to them, “Let us build along with you; for we seek your God, just as you do; and we have been sacrificing to him since the time of Esar-Hadon king of Ashur, who brought us here.” 3 But Z’rubavel, Yeshua and the rest of the heads of fathers’ clans in Isra’el answered them, “You and we have nothing in common that you should join us in building a house for our God. We will build by ourselves for Adonai the God of Isra’el, as Koresh king of Persia ordered us to do.”
4 Then the people of the land began discouraging the people of Y’hudah, in order to make them afraid to build. 5 They also bribed officials to frustrate their plan throughout the lifetime of Koresh (Cyrus II, reigned 559 - 530 BC, issued Edict of Restoration in 538 BC) king of Persia and on into the reign of Daryavesh (Darius I, reigned 522 - 486 BC) king of Persia. 6 During the reign of Achashverosh (Ahasuerus, Xerxes I, reigned 486-465 BC, with Esther as consort), at the beginning of his reign, they brought a charge in writing against the people living in Y’hudah and Yerushalayim. 7 Then, during the time of Artach’shashta (Artaxerxes I, reigned 465 - 424 BC), Bishlam, Mitr’dat, Tav’el and their other colleagues wrote Artach’shashta; the letter was written in Aramaic, using Aramaic script. 8 Rechum the district governor and Shimshai the secretary wrote a letter against Yerushalayim to Artach’shashta the king as follows:
9 “From Rechum the district governor, Shimshai the secretary, their other colleagues, the judges, the officials, the Dina’im, the Afarsat’khim, the Tarp’lim, the Afarsim, the Ark’vim, the Bavlim, the Shushan’kayim, the Dehayim, the ‘Elma’im, 10 the other nations whom the great and noble Asnapar deported and settled in Shomron, and the others who remain in the country beyond the [Euphrates] River.”
11 (This is the text of the letter they sent him.)
“To Artach’shashta the king from his servants the people beyond the River:
12 “Let the king know that the Judeans who left you to come to us in Yerushalayim are building this rebellious and wicked city. They have finished the walls and are now digging the foundations. 13 So let the king know that if this city is rebuilt and the walls are finished, they will refuse to pay tribute, tax or toll; and this will reduce the royal revenue. 14 Now, because we eat the king’s salt, and it is not right for us to see the king dishonored, we therefore are sending to inform the king, 15 so that a search can be made in the archives of your ancestors; in these archives you will find and ascertain that this city is indeed a rebellious city, the bane of kings and provinces, and that sedition has been fostered there since ancient times — which is why this city was destroyed. 16 We submit to the king that if this city is rebuilt and the walls are finished, you will soon lose possession of all territories beyond the River.”
17 The king sent this answer:
“To Rechum the district governor, Shimshai the secretary, their other colleagues living in Shomron, and the rest beyond the River:
“Shalom!
18 “The letter you sent us has now been translated for me. 19 I ordered a search made, and it was found that this city has a long history of revolt against kings, that rebellion and sedition have been fostered there; 20 also that there have been powerful kings over Yerushalayim who ruled all the territory beyond the River; and tribute, taxes and tolls were paid to them.
21 “So now, order that these men stop work and that this city not be rebuilt until I order it. 22 Take care not to neglect your duty; otherwise the harm may increase, to the damage of the king.”
23 When the text of King Artach’shashta’s letter was read before Rechum, Shimshai the secretary and their colleagues, they hurried to Yerushalayim to the Judeans and stopped their work by force of arms. 24 So the work on the house of God in Yerushalayim ceased; it remained at a standstill until the second year of the reign of Daryavesh (Darius II, reigned 424 - 405 BC) king of Persia.
CJB
Then, we can pick up on the history in the next two chapters:
Ezra 5:1-6:22
5:1 The prophets Hagai (Haggai) and Z’kharyah (Zechariah) the son of ‘Iddo prophesied to the Judeans in Yerushalayim and Y’hudah; they prophesied to them in the name of the God of Isra’el. 2 Then Z’rubavel (Zerubbabel, Zorobabel) the son of Sh’alti’el and Yeshua the son of Yotzadak began rebuilding the house of God in Yerushalayim; with them were the prophets of God, helping them.
3 No sooner had they begun, when Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the [Euphrates] River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their colleagues came and asked them, “Who gave you permission to rebuild this house and finish this wall? 4 What are the names of the men putting up this building?” 5 But the eye of their God was on the leaders of the Judeans, so they didn’t stop them until the matter could come before Daryavesh and a reply in writing be received.
6 Here is the text of the letter which Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their fellow officials beyond the River sent to Daryavesh the king; 7 they sent him a letter in which it was written:
“To Daryavesh the king,
“Complete shalom!”
8 “Let the king know that we went to the province of Y’hudah, to the house of the great God. It is being rebuilt with large stones, and timber is being set in the walls. This work is being done energetically, and it is making good progress under the direction 9 of their leaders. We asked them, ‘Who gave you permission to rebuild this house and finish this wall?’ 10 We also asked them their names, so that we could write you the names of the men in charge of them.
11 “They gave us this answer: ‘We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth. We are rebuilding the house that was built many years ago, built and finished by a great king of Isra’el. 12 But because our ancestors provoked the God of heaven, he handed them over to N’vukhadnetzar king of Bavel, the Kasdi; he destroyed this house and carried the people off to Bavel. 13 But in the first year of Koresh king of Bavel, Koresh the king gave authorization to rebuild this house of God. 14 Moreover, the gold and silver articles belonging to the house of God, which N’vukhadnetzar had removed from the temple in Yerushalayim and brought to the temple of Bavel, Koresh the king took out of the temple in Bavel; they were turned over to a man named Sheshbatzar, whom he had appointed governor. 15 He said to him, “Take these articles, go, put them in the temple in Yerushalayim, and let the house of God be rebuilt on its original site.” 16 So this same Sheshbatzar came and laid the foundations of the house of God in Yerushalayim; it has been under construction ever since, and it isn’t finished yet.
17 “‘Now therefore, if it seems good to the king, let a search be made in the royal treasury there in Bavel to determine whether a decree was issued by Koresh the king to rebuild this house of God in Yerushalayim; and let the king send us his decision concerning this matter.’”
6:1 Daryavesh the king issued an order; and search was made in the archives building, where treasures were stored in Bavel (Babel, Babylon); 2 and there was found at Achm’ta, in the palace which is in the province of Media, a scroll on which was written the following:
“Memorandum:
3 “In the first year of Koresh the king, Koresh the king issued this decree: ‘Concerning the house of God in Yerushalayim, let the house be rebuilt, the place where they offer sacrifices; and let its foundations be firmly laid. Its height is to be ninety feet and its breadth ninety feet, 4 with three rows of large stones and one row of new timber. The expenses are to be charged to the king’s treasury. 5 Also let the gold and silver articles belonging to the house of God, which N’vukhadnetzar (Nebuchadnezzar) removed from the temple at Yerushalayim and brought to Bavel, be restored and returned to the temple in Yerushalayim, each item to its place; and you are to put them in the house of God.’
6 “Therefore, Tatnai governor of the territory beyond the River, Sh’tar-Boznai and your colleagues the officials beyond the River, stay away from there! 7 Let the work of this house of God alone. Let the governor of the Judeans and the leaders of the Judeans rebuild this house of God on its site.
8 “Moreover, I herewith issue this order concerning how you are to assist these leaders of the Judeans in rebuilding this house of God: the expenses of these men are to be defrayed promptly from the royal funds, from the taxes collected beyond the River, so that the work can continue. 9 Whatever they need — young bulls, rams and lambs — for burnt offerings to the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine and olive oil, according to what the cohanim in Yerushalayim say, is to be given them daily without fail; 10 so that they can offer sacrifices with a fragrant aroma to the God of heaven and pray for the life of the king and his sons.
11 “I also order that if anyone defies this order, a beam is to be pulled from his house; and he is to be lifted up and impaled on it. His house is to be reduced to rubble (literally, made into an OUTHOUSE). 12 May the God who has caused his name to be there overthrow any king or people that tries to defy it and destroy this house of God in Yerushalayim.
“I, Daryavesh, have issued this order. Let it be carried out to the letter.”
13 Then Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the [Euphrates] River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their colleagues obeyed strictly; because Daryavesh the king had given the order to do so.
14 The leaders of the Judeans made good progress with the rebuilding, thanks to the prophesying of Hagai the prophet and Z’kharyah the son of ‘Iddo. They kept building until they were finished, in keeping with the command of the God of Isra’el and in accordance with the order of Koresh (Cyrus II), Daryavesh (Darius II) and Artach’shashta (Artaxerxes II) king of Persia. 15 This house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of Daryavesh the king. (If this is Darius II, that would be 418 BC, not 536 BC!) 16 The people of Isra’el, the cohanim, the L’vi’im and the other people from the exile joyfully dedicated this house of God. 17 At the dedication of this house of God they offered 100 young bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and, as a sin offering for all Isra’el, twelve male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Isra’el.
18 Then they installed the cohanim (priests) in their divisions and the L’vi’im (Levites) in their orders for the service of God in Yerushalayim, as written in the book of Moshe.
19 The people from the exile kept Pesach on the fourteenth day of the first month. 20 For the cohanim and L’vi’im had purified themselves together; all of them were pure. So they slaughtered the Pesach lambs for all the people from the exile and for their kinsmen the cohanim and for themselves. 21 The people of Isra’el who had returned from the exile and all those who had renounced the filthy practices of the nations living in the land in order to seek Adonai the God of Isra’el, ate [the Pesach lamb] 22 and joyfully kept the feast of matzah for seven days; for Adonai had filled them with joy by turning the heart of the king of Ashur toward them, so that he assisted them in the work of the house of God, the God of Isra’el.
CJB
I believe this is why it was so amazing to see Z'rubavel holding the plumbline, putting the finishing touches on the Temple, in Zechariah 4:8-10:
Zechariah 4:8-10
8 This message from Adonai came to me: 9 ‘The hands of Z’rubavel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will also finish it.’ Then you will know that Adonai-Tzva’ot sent me to you. 10 For even someone who doesn’t think much of a day when such minor events take place will rejoice at seeing the plumbline in the hand of Z’rubavel. So these seven are the eyes of Adonai that range about over all the earth.”
CJB
He was there when they laid the foundation back around 536 BC, and he was STILL there putting the finishing touches on the Temple in 418 BC! He was not a young man when the Temple was finished! That's why even the sceptics were thrilled at seeing the plumbline in the hand of Z'rubavel. Adonai (YHWH) kept him alive and strong to finish the work!
Now, how this all figures into the Seven Clocks he has given us, I frankly don't know, ... yet. However, I'm certain that it will contribute to what I've been studying.
Regarding Dani'el 8:23, you're right that, if it is talking about the same time period as that of Medo-Persia (the two horns of the ram), Alexander the Great (the rough goat's prominent horn), and the four empires that arise out of Grecia (Macedonia), the Seleucid Empire, the Ptolemaic Empire, the Kingdom of Asia, and the Kingdom of Macedonia, then this person should indeed be Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The only way it could be some future "antichrist," is IF there is some remnant of these four empires still in existence today and IF the statement "in the latter time of their kingdom" is yet future to us. I don't believe that is a sensible viewpoint, based on what we know about 175-164 BC, when Antiochus reigned in the Seleucid Empire based in Syria.
I hope you had a good Christmas. I celebrate both Chanukkah and Christmas and Sukkot. I personally believe (although proving it would be difficult) that Chanukkah and Christmas coincided the year before Yeshua` was born. Furthermore, Christmas/Chanukkah was not the birth of Yeshua` but rather His CONCEPTION! I believe that His birth 288 days later (the human gestation period) at the time of Sukkot, the festival of Tabernacles or Booths, when God came to tabernacle with us.
You're right that none of us has a clear picture of what will happen in the future, ESPECIALLY those who have their pet timelines to follow. Frankly, I don't believe that we live long enough to get the whole picture! However, it is important that we have discussions like these on this forum, because the Ruach haQodesh gives each of us different perspectives and leads us into different truths that He may not reveal to others right away. We all start from different points and learn at different rates, and sometimes our backgrounds and personal preferences get in the way of His attempts to reveal truth to us. Sometimes, I believe that He skips over some points and teaches us other points until we're ready for the points that He skipped over. It would be nice if we were all on the same page, so to speak, but where would be the Ruach's creativity in that? He knows best, after all.Saint said:
Regarding the building of the 2nd Temple, we read this in Ezra:
Ezra 4:1-24
4:1 When the enemies of Y’hudah and Binyamin heard that the people from the exile were building a temple to Adonai the God of Isra’el, 2 they approached Z’rubavel and the heads of fathers’ clans and said to them, “Let us build along with you; for we seek your God, just as you do; and we have been sacrificing to him since the time of Esar-Hadon king of Ashur, who brought us here.” 3 But Z’rubavel, Yeshua and the rest of the heads of fathers’ clans in Isra’el answered them, “You and we have nothing in common that you should join us in building a house for our God. We will build by ourselves for Adonai the God of Isra’el, as Koresh king of Persia ordered us to do.”
4 Then the people of the land began discouraging the people of Y’hudah, in order to make them afraid to build. 5 They also bribed officials to frustrate their plan throughout the lifetime of Koresh (Cyrus II, reigned 559 - 530 BC, issued Edict of Restoration in 538 BC) king of Persia and on into the reign of Daryavesh (Darius I, reigned 522 - 486 BC) king of Persia. 6 During the reign of Achashverosh (Ahasuerus, Xerxes I, reigned 486-465 BC, with Esther as consort), at the beginning of his reign, they brought a charge in writing against the people living in Y’hudah and Yerushalayim. 7 Then, during the time of Artach’shashta (Artaxerxes I, reigned 465 - 424 BC), Bishlam, Mitr’dat, Tav’el and their other colleagues wrote Artach’shashta; the letter was written in Aramaic, using Aramaic script. 8 Rechum the district governor and Shimshai the secretary wrote a letter against Yerushalayim to Artach’shashta the king as follows:
9 “From Rechum the district governor, Shimshai the secretary, their other colleagues, the judges, the officials, the Dina’im, the Afarsat’khim, the Tarp’lim, the Afarsim, the Ark’vim, the Bavlim, the Shushan’kayim, the Dehayim, the ‘Elma’im, 10 the other nations whom the great and noble Asnapar deported and settled in Shomron, and the others who remain in the country beyond the [Euphrates] River.”
11 (This is the text of the letter they sent him.)
“To Artach’shashta the king from his servants the people beyond the River:
12 “Let the king know that the Judeans who left you to come to us in Yerushalayim are building this rebellious and wicked city. They have finished the walls and are now digging the foundations. 13 So let the king know that if this city is rebuilt and the walls are finished, they will refuse to pay tribute, tax or toll; and this will reduce the royal revenue. 14 Now, because we eat the king’s salt, and it is not right for us to see the king dishonored, we therefore are sending to inform the king, 15 so that a search can be made in the archives of your ancestors; in these archives you will find and ascertain that this city is indeed a rebellious city, the bane of kings and provinces, and that sedition has been fostered there since ancient times — which is why this city was destroyed. 16 We submit to the king that if this city is rebuilt and the walls are finished, you will soon lose possession of all territories beyond the River.”
17 The king sent this answer:
“To Rechum the district governor, Shimshai the secretary, their other colleagues living in Shomron, and the rest beyond the River:
“Shalom!
18 “The letter you sent us has now been translated for me. 19 I ordered a search made, and it was found that this city has a long history of revolt against kings, that rebellion and sedition have been fostered there; 20 also that there have been powerful kings over Yerushalayim who ruled all the territory beyond the River; and tribute, taxes and tolls were paid to them.
21 “So now, order that these men stop work and that this city not be rebuilt until I order it. 22 Take care not to neglect your duty; otherwise the harm may increase, to the damage of the king.”
23 When the text of King Artach’shashta’s letter was read before Rechum, Shimshai the secretary and their colleagues, they hurried to Yerushalayim to the Judeans and stopped their work by force of arms. 24 So the work on the house of God in Yerushalayim ceased; it remained at a standstill until the second year of the reign of Daryavesh (Darius II, reigned 424 - 405 BC) king of Persia.
CJB
Then, we can pick up on the history in the next two chapters:
Ezra 5:1-6:22
5:1 The prophets Hagai (Haggai) and Z’kharyah (Zechariah) the son of ‘Iddo prophesied to the Judeans in Yerushalayim and Y’hudah; they prophesied to them in the name of the God of Isra’el. 2 Then Z’rubavel (Zerubbabel, Zorobabel) the son of Sh’alti’el and Yeshua the son of Yotzadak began rebuilding the house of God in Yerushalayim; with them were the prophets of God, helping them.
3 No sooner had they begun, when Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the [Euphrates] River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their colleagues came and asked them, “Who gave you permission to rebuild this house and finish this wall? 4 What are the names of the men putting up this building?” 5 But the eye of their God was on the leaders of the Judeans, so they didn’t stop them until the matter could come before Daryavesh and a reply in writing be received.
6 Here is the text of the letter which Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their fellow officials beyond the River sent to Daryavesh the king; 7 they sent him a letter in which it was written:
“To Daryavesh the king,
“Complete shalom!”
8 “Let the king know that we went to the province of Y’hudah, to the house of the great God. It is being rebuilt with large stones, and timber is being set in the walls. This work is being done energetically, and it is making good progress under the direction 9 of their leaders. We asked them, ‘Who gave you permission to rebuild this house and finish this wall?’ 10 We also asked them their names, so that we could write you the names of the men in charge of them.
11 “They gave us this answer: ‘We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth. We are rebuilding the house that was built many years ago, built and finished by a great king of Isra’el. 12 But because our ancestors provoked the God of heaven, he handed them over to N’vukhadnetzar king of Bavel, the Kasdi; he destroyed this house and carried the people off to Bavel. 13 But in the first year of Koresh king of Bavel, Koresh the king gave authorization to rebuild this house of God. 14 Moreover, the gold and silver articles belonging to the house of God, which N’vukhadnetzar had removed from the temple in Yerushalayim and brought to the temple of Bavel, Koresh the king took out of the temple in Bavel; they were turned over to a man named Sheshbatzar, whom he had appointed governor. 15 He said to him, “Take these articles, go, put them in the temple in Yerushalayim, and let the house of God be rebuilt on its original site.” 16 So this same Sheshbatzar came and laid the foundations of the house of God in Yerushalayim; it has been under construction ever since, and it isn’t finished yet.
17 “‘Now therefore, if it seems good to the king, let a search be made in the royal treasury there in Bavel to determine whether a decree was issued by Koresh the king to rebuild this house of God in Yerushalayim; and let the king send us his decision concerning this matter.’”
6:1 Daryavesh the king issued an order; and search was made in the archives building, where treasures were stored in Bavel (Babel, Babylon); 2 and there was found at Achm’ta, in the palace which is in the province of Media, a scroll on which was written the following:
“Memorandum:
3 “In the first year of Koresh the king, Koresh the king issued this decree: ‘Concerning the house of God in Yerushalayim, let the house be rebuilt, the place where they offer sacrifices; and let its foundations be firmly laid. Its height is to be ninety feet and its breadth ninety feet, 4 with three rows of large stones and one row of new timber. The expenses are to be charged to the king’s treasury. 5 Also let the gold and silver articles belonging to the house of God, which N’vukhadnetzar (Nebuchadnezzar) removed from the temple at Yerushalayim and brought to Bavel, be restored and returned to the temple in Yerushalayim, each item to its place; and you are to put them in the house of God.’
6 “Therefore, Tatnai governor of the territory beyond the River, Sh’tar-Boznai and your colleagues the officials beyond the River, stay away from there! 7 Let the work of this house of God alone. Let the governor of the Judeans and the leaders of the Judeans rebuild this house of God on its site.
8 “Moreover, I herewith issue this order concerning how you are to assist these leaders of the Judeans in rebuilding this house of God: the expenses of these men are to be defrayed promptly from the royal funds, from the taxes collected beyond the River, so that the work can continue. 9 Whatever they need — young bulls, rams and lambs — for burnt offerings to the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine and olive oil, according to what the cohanim in Yerushalayim say, is to be given them daily without fail; 10 so that they can offer sacrifices with a fragrant aroma to the God of heaven and pray for the life of the king and his sons.
11 “I also order that if anyone defies this order, a beam is to be pulled from his house; and he is to be lifted up and impaled on it. His house is to be reduced to rubble (literally, made into an OUTHOUSE). 12 May the God who has caused his name to be there overthrow any king or people that tries to defy it and destroy this house of God in Yerushalayim.
“I, Daryavesh, have issued this order. Let it be carried out to the letter.”
13 Then Tatnai the governor of the territory beyond the [Euphrates] River, Sh’tar-Boznai and their colleagues obeyed strictly; because Daryavesh the king had given the order to do so.
14 The leaders of the Judeans made good progress with the rebuilding, thanks to the prophesying of Hagai the prophet and Z’kharyah the son of ‘Iddo. They kept building until they were finished, in keeping with the command of the God of Isra’el and in accordance with the order of Koresh (Cyrus II), Daryavesh (Darius II) and Artach’shashta (Artaxerxes II) king of Persia. 15 This house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of Daryavesh the king. (If this is Darius II, that would be 418 BC, not 536 BC!) 16 The people of Isra’el, the cohanim, the L’vi’im and the other people from the exile joyfully dedicated this house of God. 17 At the dedication of this house of God they offered 100 young bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and, as a sin offering for all Isra’el, twelve male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Isra’el.
18 Then they installed the cohanim (priests) in their divisions and the L’vi’im (Levites) in their orders for the service of God in Yerushalayim, as written in the book of Moshe.
19 The people from the exile kept Pesach on the fourteenth day of the first month. 20 For the cohanim and L’vi’im had purified themselves together; all of them were pure. So they slaughtered the Pesach lambs for all the people from the exile and for their kinsmen the cohanim and for themselves. 21 The people of Isra’el who had returned from the exile and all those who had renounced the filthy practices of the nations living in the land in order to seek Adonai the God of Isra’el, ate [the Pesach lamb] 22 and joyfully kept the feast of matzah for seven days; for Adonai had filled them with joy by turning the heart of the king of Ashur toward them, so that he assisted them in the work of the house of God, the God of Isra’el.
CJB
I believe this is why it was so amazing to see Z'rubavel holding the plumbline, putting the finishing touches on the Temple, in Zechariah 4:8-10:
Zechariah 4:8-10
8 This message from Adonai came to me: 9 ‘The hands of Z’rubavel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will also finish it.’ Then you will know that Adonai-Tzva’ot sent me to you. 10 For even someone who doesn’t think much of a day when such minor events take place will rejoice at seeing the plumbline in the hand of Z’rubavel. So these seven are the eyes of Adonai that range about over all the earth.”
CJB
He was there when they laid the foundation back around 536 BC, and he was STILL there putting the finishing touches on the Temple in 418 BC! He was not a young man when the Temple was finished! That's why even the sceptics were thrilled at seeing the plumbline in the hand of Z'rubavel. Adonai (YHWH) kept him alive and strong to finish the work!
Now, how this all figures into the Seven Clocks he has given us, I frankly don't know, ... yet. However, I'm certain that it will contribute to what I've been studying.
Regarding Dani'el 8:23, you're right that, if it is talking about the same time period as that of Medo-Persia (the two horns of the ram), Alexander the Great (the rough goat's prominent horn), and the four empires that arise out of Grecia (Macedonia), the Seleucid Empire, the Ptolemaic Empire, the Kingdom of Asia, and the Kingdom of Macedonia, then this person should indeed be Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The only way it could be some future "antichrist," is IF there is some remnant of these four empires still in existence today and IF the statement "in the latter time of their kingdom" is yet future to us. I don't believe that is a sensible viewpoint, based on what we know about 175-164 BC, when Antiochus reigned in the Seleucid Empire based in Syria.
Hi Roy...I'm with you on the birth of Yeshua being at the festival of Tabernacles, I've had that understanding for some time now.
Regarding the building of the temple; I was looking this morning doing some more research and found the following link which I found interesting because it seemed to be somewhat of a scholarly study and it seemed that it was an honest study without preconceived understanding. Maybe you have seen this but I'll pass it along anyway...
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_building_wright.html
Also I found reference to the fact that the building of the temple might have suffered some set back because of some destruction but I've lost that link and can't seem to find it again. I'll keep looking because now I'm interested in this whole thing. What I've seen so far tends to give me somewhat of a brain cramp though.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Regarding the building of the temple; I was looking this morning doing some more research and found the following link which I found interesting because it seemed to be somewhat of a scholarly study and it seemed that it was an honest study without preconceived understanding. Maybe you have seen this but I'll pass it along anyway...
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_building_wright.html
Also I found reference to the fact that the building of the temple might have suffered some set back because of some destruction but I've lost that link and can't seem to find it again. I'll keep looking because now I'm interested in this whole thing. What I've seen so far tends to give me somewhat of a brain cramp though.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Since Christ Himself warned of a coming "abomination of desolation" in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, that's enough to disprove your theory against the idea of a coming final Antichrist for the end of this world.Retrobyter said:
Evidence??
When did you say Antiochus IV lived? 175-164 B.C.
And when was the time of Christ's Ministry and His Olivet discourse warning about a future coming "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem? Aprox. 29 A.D.
That's around 190 years difference isn't it? Yes. And Antiochus was ALREADY dead, wasn't he? YES.
The only logical conclusion? Our Lord Jesus Christ was NOT talking about Antiochus with the "abomination of desolation" event He quoted from the Book of Daniel. It means only one thing. Look for ANOTHER Antichrist to come doing that "abomination of desolation" event.
Did the Roman army of the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple accomplish that "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel? NO! Simple then; look for another yet future.
Since 2,000 years when Jerusalem and the 2nd temple were destroyed when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem, has that "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel even been POSSIBLE??? NO! And why not?
It's simple; that "abomination of desolation" event is to occur in regards to a STANDING Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, for THAT is exactly what Christ and His Apostles were pointing to while upon the Mount of Olives overlooking... the Temple Mount buildings at the time of Christ's Ministry, per Matt.24 and Mark 13. This is also the matter that Apostle Paul was teaching about in the 2 Thessalonians 2 Scripture.
Guess the deceived here can't leave out the Daniel 11 Scripture about that "abomination of desolation" event in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem afterall.
Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
(KJV)
Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)
Veteran, you continue to look for an end time temple so I have to ask you; show me where in the word of God does He call for a finial temple in this age? I know you will turn to 2Th 2:4 but the temple referenced there can refer to the hearts of the believer or the assembly of believers; after all verse 3 calls for a great falling away and if they fall away they have turned to another faith or god. Yahweh would take great affront if He were replaced in the hearts of believers. We simply do not understand the full meaning of this verse.
Because of the rejection of Yeshua, He brought forth the Roman army to destroy the existing temple of Yahweh and He told the Jews:
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. (39) For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Mat 23:38-39 MKJV
I have to ask you; when will the Jews call forth these words? Isn’t it at the very end? So where is the case for another temple before the return of Yeshua? The temple of Yeshua today is in the hearts of His assembly the church. Yeshua was the finial sacrifice for sin and if that is the case would Yahweh recognize another temple and if He does not recognize such those in Jerusalem might as well worship in a barn!
For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners and made higher than the heavens, (27) who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice daily, first for his own sins and then for the people's sins. For He did this once for all, when He offered up Himself. Heb 7:26-27 MKJV
Our High Priest is Yeshua who sets at the right hand of the Father and will do so until it is time for His return.
Regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple; you continue to ignore Luke 21:20 which is a parallel verse to Mat 24:15
And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; Luk 21:20 YLT
Any uncircumcised entering into the inter part of the temple was considered a desolation by the Jews and any uncircumcised army entering Jerusalem was also considered a desolation.
So all of this being said show me how Yahweh would recognize another temple and if He does not recognize it what good is it?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Because of the rejection of Yeshua, He brought forth the Roman army to destroy the existing temple of Yahweh and He told the Jews:
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. (39) For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Mat 23:38-39 MKJV
I have to ask you; when will the Jews call forth these words? Isn’t it at the very end? So where is the case for another temple before the return of Yeshua? The temple of Yeshua today is in the hearts of His assembly the church. Yeshua was the finial sacrifice for sin and if that is the case would Yahweh recognize another temple and if He does not recognize such those in Jerusalem might as well worship in a barn!
For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners and made higher than the heavens, (27) who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice daily, first for his own sins and then for the people's sins. For He did this once for all, when He offered up Himself. Heb 7:26-27 MKJV
Our High Priest is Yeshua who sets at the right hand of the Father and will do so until it is time for His return.
Regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple; you continue to ignore Luke 21:20 which is a parallel verse to Mat 24:15
And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; Luk 21:20 YLT
Any uncircumcised entering into the inter part of the temple was considered a desolation by the Jews and any uncircumcised army entering Jerusalem was also considered a desolation.
So all of this being said show me how Yahweh would recognize another temple and if He does not recognize it what good is it?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
teleiosis
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Not only is it in the "temple" in 2Th 2:4, but Jesus said the abomination of Dan 9:27 would be set up in the Holy Place and that area is defined in the Bible as being inside the physical stone Temple of God in Jerusalem, in front of the curtain or veil that separates the Temple ministration area from the Holy of Holies.
In Rev 13:14-15, a physical talking image of the anti-Christ is erected by the false prophet of the "land" (who would be in charge of the Temple in Israel) as a peace offering to the conquering King of the North who rapidly (on wing - like a flood) invades the Holy Land.
Saint, since you have switched over to the dark side of figurativism and Preterism, you can "spiritualize" the Word all you want to make it say what you want, but a literal fulfillment is never negated by your opinions.
In Rev 13:14-15, a physical talking image of the anti-Christ is erected by the false prophet of the "land" (who would be in charge of the Temple in Israel) as a peace offering to the conquering King of the North who rapidly (on wing - like a flood) invades the Holy Land.
Saint, since you have switched over to the dark side of figurativism and Preterism, you can "spiritualize" the Word all you want to make it say what you want, but a literal fulfillment is never negated by your opinions.
It would seem that Jesus is guilty of the same offense you accuse Saint of.teleiosis said:
Matthew 26:61
Matthew 27:40
John 2:16-21
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them;[c] and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
The tearing of the veil what did that mean? That the Holy of Holies was opened. God now has a new sanctuary.
Just as Jesus was the statuary of the HS. God will never dwell in the temple again.
Jesus is the Holy of Holies that's your error in looking for a building that 9:24-27 is incomplete. You just like the others desire a temple building neglecting the clear teaching that God now dwells with-in men. So in that 2 Thes is not speaking of a building but rather with-in the flesh satan will take his seat.
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.
Paul used naos the dwelling place of God, now how will it be that the veil was torn will God ever sanctify a temple built "building" when by the Lord Jesus a new temple is found with-in men. To teach God will sanctify such a place is to deny the cross as well as Jesus. The presents of God has moved out of the building and He now sits in the temples of flesh threw His HS.
1 Cor 3:16
16 Do you not know that you are the temple 3485 of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Cor 6:19
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple 3485 of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
2 Cor 6:16
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[b] are the temple 3485 of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”[c]
The new temple is here and has been being built for years, you don't see it?
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple 3485 in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
There is only one kind of apostasy that would concern Yeshua and that would be falling away from belief in Him and His resurrection, or that another has taken his place.
I strongly suspect that a major cause of any great falling away at the end of this age is the body of believers, clinging to the theology of man and waiting for certain events to come about, and in their absents are incapable of understanding the darkness enveloping them. Examples of this would be expecting a pre-tribulation rapture or the construction of a third temple in Jerusalem. If we are certain that these things must occur and they haven't; how can we recognize the antichrist and his deception?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
teleiosis
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Ah, that would be a "no."Saint said:
Not at all. You're picking unrelated verses and attaching them to each other to render the interpretation you want, rather than allow for a literal, physical fulfillment of the end-time verses which have evil rise to be the norm, Christianity split into apostacy or martyrdom and nearly eliminated - before Jesus comes again to save the day.Rex said:
In 2Th 2:4, the anti-Christ, who is himself possessed by an evil spirit, cannot lay claim to our soul and "sit" in us.
teleiosis all I’ve heard from you so far has been an emotional rejection of what has been offered.
The verses in Revelation 13:14-15 say nothing about a temple setting but you will take note that it says “leadeth astray”; in other words “Apostasy” of a believer.
And it leadeth astray those dwelling on the land, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the beast that hath the stroke of the sword and did live, (15) and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and that it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed. Rev 13:14-15 YLT
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
The verses in Revelation 13:14-15 say nothing about a temple setting but you will take note that it says “leadeth astray”; in other words “Apostasy” of a believer.
And it leadeth astray those dwelling on the land, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the beast that hath the stroke of the sword and did live, (15) and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and that it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed. Rev 13:14-15 YLT
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Hi Bob, Your words: "So all of this being said show me how Yahweh would recognize another temple and if He does not recognize it what good is it."
I don't think those of us who believe in a third temple believe that it will be recognized by God or that it does any good at all. It will simply be a platform for the a/c to demand the worship and adoration from the Israelites that is intended for God. The Jews may intend it for good but they will soon realize it was all for nought.
I don't think those of us who believe in a third temple believe that it will be recognized by God or that it does any good at all. It will simply be a platform for the a/c to demand the worship and adoration from the Israelites that is intended for God. The Jews may intend it for good but they will soon realize it was all for nought.
teleiosis
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An emotional rejection? Don't flatter yourself. All I said was that the Holy Place Jesus referenced with the abomination spoken about by Daniel - Dan 9:27 - was a physical place inside the Temple. Hebrews 9:2-3; Exodus 31:11.Saint said:
Furthermore, and most logically astute, the Temple the Man of Lawlessness sets himself up is not us, because he is not a spirit, but a man who, as Rev 16:13-14 says, is himself possessed by the demonic. How do you think he gets his power otherwise?
Finally, while you want to very figurative in connecting a single word like desolate, you become ultra-literal when I say that the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 IS the abomination of Mt 24:15 - just because it is not spelled out for you in the exact same language! The two laws that go into effect with a TALKING abomination (idols have ALWAYS been stupidly silent until this one is set up) in Rev 13:15-17 then explains why the Great Tribulation of Mt 24:21-22 is so terrible to the Elect and will nearly wipe them out if not for the sudden arrival of the Day of the Lord and our being gathered up to Him.
So looking at the two Greek words that denote into English "temple" and looking at verses that indicate temple in the NT in a discussion about the temple is picking unrelated verses? That's an intersesting observation. So how do you suppose we find out about the temple If we don't look at whats is said about it?teleiosis said:
If this were merely a building not containing the presents of God, Paul would have used the word "hieron" ,(whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) The word Paul used "Naos" denotes the presents of God as opposed to "hieron" referring to the building.Trekson said:
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.
Its interesting to go threw the Gospels and see the difference
Naos
. 1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
teleiosis
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Now you want to act like I've insulted you. Your premise is flawed, so your agrument is void.Rex said:
You can look at "a" word all you want, and find different things.
The point is broader. You're being way too myopic here.
The point is context.
"...so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God..." - this is not a spiritual Temple of our soul or anyone else's soul. This is talking about a human being setting himself up in a physcial Temple.
It'd be nice if you could see the forest for the trees, but I can't make a blind man see.
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