Why Christians Fail to Receive Physical Healing

lesjude · Dec 3, 2012

The Bible clearly gives the reasons and that healing is promised.

Demon possession/oppression can be a cause of sickness. Jesus cast out many demons and the result was healing. See also 2 Corinthians 7:1 for Christians needing deliverance.

Sin is how sickness came into the world so it follows that if a believer sins and refuses all correction from God then He can chasten with sickness. Repentance brings healing.
The healing of the sickness, not the sickness, is for the glory of God. John 9:1-3

Christians can be ill and stay ill from ignorance of the healing Jesus provided in the atonement.

Everyone gets the measure of faith from God but it is the believers responsibility to grow and exercise that faith (Romans 10:17 and Jude 20). If that responsibility is not met healing can be elusive. God can allow it to send that message of our responsibility if all else fails.

They can stay ill because they do not know what Bible faith is Hebrews 11, or how to put it to work James 2:18-26, Mark 11:24, 1 John 5:14-15 to receive healing. No one gets ANYTHING from God unless they exercise Bible faith praying according to His revealed will not "if it be thy will".

Sickness can simply be a trial to defeat the devil, glorify God, and refine the believer's faithfulness and character (see James 1:2-4, 1 Peter 1:6-7) which is why there is often a period of time between asking and receiving by faith and the manifestation of the healing (Mark 11:24).
Christians get sick and stay sick for abusing their bodies. Praying over ones food is VERY important for obvious reasons. It keeps us safe from all the "stuff" in it.
Disobedience, unforgiveness, the negative things we say about ourselves, wanting to be sick to use it for control, sympathy, a hobby, ect.; involvement in the occult by Christians i.e. horoscope, ouija board, "white" witchcraft, fortunetelling, magic practices, water witching (water divining), Eastern religion like yoga all can and do result in getting sick and staying sick.
There is a culture or climate of unbelief that is in the churches which hinders those who want to trust Jesus for healing by faith from doing so and hinders the work of healing miracles by the Holy Spirit.

THE Gypsy · Dec 3, 2012

Balderdash.

Ruth · Dec 3, 2012

is this a joke?

Rach1370 · Dec 3, 2012

no...it's not a joke...it's ignorance coated in arrogance and topped with poor exegesis.

THE Gypsy · Dec 3, 2012

Ruth said:
is this a joke?

That's what I was wondering.

lesjude · Dec 4, 2012

Rach said:
no...it's not a joke...it's ignorance coated in arrogance and topped with poor exegesis.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15884-our-testimonynormal-christianity/
We have lived divine healing for 35 years by grace through faith in God's word. How about you?

Hezekiah · Dec 4, 2012

The only times I've seen it work has been through the laying on of hands by the elders of the Church. Yes, it does work.

Rach1370 · Dec 4, 2012

lesjude said:
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15884-our-testimonynormal-christianity/
We have lived divine healing for 35 years by grace through faith in God's word. How about you?

Anyone who espouses the same stuff in your OP is, as I said, ignorant, arrogant and shows a clear misunderstanding of scripture.
Ignorant, because you can have absolutely no clue as to the life of Christians who are ill. You don't know who they are, how their relationship with Jesus is, what they ask Jesus for, what they praise him for, and the blessings he's poured into their lives. You can know none of that, and yet you feel free to make judgements and statements anyway...judgements and statements that are based on arrogance. You think that because you haven't faced illness that God is blessing you directly thanks to your faith, your beliefs, your rubbing of the magic lantern to produce the genie of health. And that is a terrible misrepresentation of what the bible tells us...about life and about faith and about our relationship with God.
Do you know what the bible teaches as blessings? A blessing is what brings us or others closer to God. If God chooses to do that through health, illness, persecution or security, that is, in his wisdom, the best thing for us. Do unwell Christians glory in their sickness? No...not at all, but what they do glory in is God's hand over their lives in ANY and ALL circumstances. Just as the persecuted Christian in Iran draws strength from God in their hard times, knowing that by leaning on him during moments of hell, they draw closer to him, but still not loving the violence that is inflicted against them; so too unwell Christians draw closer to God through what God has allowed for them. And that's what the bible says:

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
(2 Corinthians 12:9-10 ESV)

If you continue to believe as you do, a day will come upon you where your faith will be shaken. There was a pastor who preached as you do, and one day his wife got cancer. Instead of loving her, caring for her, praying for her, supporting her; he declared it to be her fault, that her faith was weak, and he divorced her. Wow...what a powerful witness for Christ. I have no doubt that on the last day Jesus will be saying to him "depart, I never knew you". See....here's the deal. One day you will get sick. It's called dying, and it comes to us all. Now, sometimes we die by wrapping ourselves around a tree...but often it's "old age". Have you ever seen someone die of old age? Their body stops working...heart disease, alzheimer's, kidney function....the list is almost endless. But basically their bodies stop working, sickness riddles their bodies and eventually they die from it. As Christians we rejoice because we know the second death will never touch us...but for this life? All will die.
So sit on your mighty throne if you will, pronouncing yourself cognizant of others faith, trust and love of Christ...and his answers back to them. Pronounce yourself better than they are, superior in all and that God is rewarding you for it. But one day you or a loved one will struggle with what sin brought into this world...sickness and death...and in that day you will either destroy yourself or that loved one with your disdain and judgement or you will have your faith shaken as you struggle to understand what you've done wrong for God to 'punish' you. I pray neither happens, that you will realise that faith (which is gifted to us by God like every other blessing) comes from God, so we can love him and trust him no matter what shakes our lives. And when a Christian can see past their hardships and praise him for their life and where he has placed them...that's a true blessing of faith...one that can withstand anything and bring a closeness to their relationship with him that is astounding. It means that life is all about him, his grace, his wisdom, his blessings, his desires for our lives. And that, is unbelievably better than thinking "I skipped that cold for 35 years cause how good am I?"

lesjude · Dec 4, 2012

Rach said:
Anyone who espouses the same stuff in your OP is, as I said, ignorant, arrogant and shows a clear misunderstanding of scripture.
Ignorant, because you can have absolutely no clue as to the life of Christians who are ill. You don't know who they are, how their relationship with Jesus is, what they ask Jesus for, what they praise him for, and the blessings he's poured into their lives. You can know none of that, and yet you feel free to make judgements and statements anyway...judgements and statements that are based on arrogance. You think that because you haven't faced illness that God is blessing you directly thanks to your faith, your beliefs, your rubbing of the magic lantern to produce the genie of health. And that is a terrible misrepresentation of what the bible tells us...about life and about faith and about our relationship with God.

Click to expand...

You have no idea what illnesses we have faced raising 7 children to adulthood including a stillborn baby, broken bones, pneumonia, appendicitis, female hemorrhage, a blinded eye, to name a few. Jesus healed and raised from the dead every time, has for 35 years, and will continue for our children and grandchildren. Now you are telling me I am arrogant to boast in Christ and wanting for all the same things that a NORMAL walk with Jesus by grace through faith can provide.

Do you know what the bible teaches as blessings? A blessing is what brings us or others closer to God. If God chooses to do that through health, illness, persecution or security, that is, in his wisdom, the best thing for us. Do unwell Christians glory in their sickness? No...not at all, but what they do glory in is God's hand over their lives in ANY and ALL circumstances. Just as the persecuted Christian in Iran draws strength from God in their hard times, knowing that by leaning on him during moments of hell, they draw closer to him, but still not loving the violence that is inflicted against them; so too unwell Christians draw closer to God through what God has allowed for them. And that's what the bible says:

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
(2 Corinthians 12:9-10 ESV)

Yes, I do and one of those blessings in physical healing. What is unclear in Psalm 103:1-5 and James 5:14-15? Paul's "thorn" was not a sickness but persecution and he was only referring to his inability to fulfill his ministry without the strength of the Holy Spirit because of the persecution not because of sickness.
The Bible PROMISES persecution. Have you ever experienced it for your Christian walk? We have. If one has not there should be a salvation check!

If you continue to believe as you do, a day will come upon you where your faith will be shaken. There was a pastor who preached as you do, and one day his wife got cancer. Instead of loving her, caring for her, praying for her, supporting her; he declared it to be her fault, that her faith was weak, and he divorced her. Wow...what a powerful witness for Christ. I have no doubt that on the last day Jesus will be saying to him "depart, I never knew you". See....here's the deal. One day you will get sick. It's called dying, and it comes to us all. Now, sometimes we die by wrapping ourselves around a tree...but often it's "old age". Have you ever seen someone die of old age? Their body stops working...heart disease, alzheimer's, kidney function....the list is almost endless. But basically their bodies stop working, sickness riddles their bodies and eventually they die from it. As Christians we rejoice because we know the second death will never touch us...but for this life? All will die.

Now that you have verbally cursed me contrary to James 3 what else are you going to do? No, it was HIS fault because he is the priest of his house and as an elder should have been able to see James 5:14-15 happen.
No, we will not be shaken contrary to your verbal curse because the Bible is true and we are in the Kingdom and it is in us:
Hebrews 12:28
New King James Version (NKJV)

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may[a] serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
The only ones that opposed the healing/deliverance that Jesus CLEARLY stated are part of His kingdom were demons and the religious. Jesus has not changed and neither has the rest.
No, all will not die and if they do they do NOT have to die sick, just a gentle transition to be with Jesus. Moses and Aaron did not die sick!

So sit on your mighty throne if you will, pronouncing yourself cognizant of others faith, trust and love of Christ...and his answers back to them. Pronounce yourself better than they are, superior in all and that God is rewarding you for it. But one day you or a loved one will struggle with what sin brought into this world...sickness and death...and in that day you will either destroy yourself or that loved one with your disdain and judgement or you will have your faith shaken as you struggle to understand what you've done wrong for God to 'punish' you. I pray neither happens, that you will realise that faith (which is gifted to us by God like every other blessing) comes from God, so we can love him and trust him no matter what shakes our lives. And when a Christian can see past their hardships and praise him for their life and where he has placed them...that's a true blessing of faith...one that can withstand anything and bring a closeness to their relationship with him that is astounding. It means that life is all about him, his grace, his wisdom, his blessings, his desires for our lives. And that, is unbelievably better than thinking "I skipped that cold for 35 years cause how good am I?"

You are charging me with things that you have assumed about why I posted. Exactly who is the accuser of the brethren that does it based on religious lies and assumptions? You continue with more verbal curses based on assumptions that are untrue.
In short you are rude and judgmental using strawmen to bring charges about a person you know nothing about. Every reason I gave for failure to receive the absolute promise of healing is substantiated in scripture. At least spend the time and have the courtesy to study these things out before making charges.

Rescued By Mary · Dec 4, 2012

lesjude said:
Yes, I do and one of those blessings in physical healing. What is unclear in Psalm 103:1-5 and James 5:14-15? Paul's "thorn" was not a sickness but persecution and he was only referring to his inability to fulfill his ministry without the strength of the Holy Spirit because of the persecution not because of sickness.
The Bible PROMISES persecution. Have you ever experienced it for your Christian walk? We have. If one has not there should be a salvation check!

If you continue to believe as you do, a day will come upon you where your faith will be shaken. There was a pastor who preached as you do, and one day his wife got cancer. Instead of loving her, hich cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may[a] serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
The only ones that opposed the healing/deliverance that Jesus CLEARLY stated are part of His kingdom were demons and the religious. Jesus has not changed and neither has the rest.
No, all will not die and if they do they do NOT have to die sick, just a gentle transition to be with Jesus. Moses and Aaron did not die si

Click to expand...

Hey lesjude,

Read your writings, man.

Look, don't take Rach to presonal, really. It's not that way.

Can I just tell you something though - There is redemptive value in suffering.

Much has been written by the Saints in this subject. Our sufferings are joined with Christ's in some mystical way.

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:" Colossians 1:24

I have the greatest respect for the sufferings that you and your family have been through - It is for you salvation, lesjude. And that of the whole world.

We become one with Christ when we enter into His sufferings with Him. Our pain is joined with His for our salvation...

A lack of faith does not result in sickness by necessity. Receiving the Body and Blood of Christ unworthly does however - It may bring death and does...

RbM

lesjude · Dec 4, 2012

Rescued By Mary said:
Hey lesjude,

Read your writings, man.

Look, don't take Rach to presonal, really. It's not that way.

Can I just tell you something though - There is redemptive value in suffering.

Click to expand...

When a Christian curses me I take it seriously.
No, a person is redeemed when they receive Jesus. Trails do exactly what James 1:2-4, 1 Peter 1:3-7, Romans 5:1-5 say.

Much has been written by the Saints in this subject. Our sufferings are joined with Christ's in some mystical way.

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:" Colossians 1:24

Paul is saying that Christ in him is recognized by the demons who stir up persecution against him. It is the same things that would be done to Christ if they could get at Him. Any believer will receive persecution. We have.

..

A lack of faith does not result in sickness by necessity. Receiving the Body and Blood of Christ unworthly does however - It may bring death and does...

RbM

1 Corinthians 11:29-30
New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[a] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[b] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
If a believer does not discern that Christ provided both forgiveness for sin and physical healing in His physical body by His death on the cross they cannot receive by grace through faith the aspect of what he did in His body they do not discern, usually physical healing.

THE Gypsy · Dec 4, 2012

Cursed you? Puhleese.

Besides...what exactly do you expect when your opening post basically said there were a bunch of "demon possessed, sinful, ignorant, irresponsible, lazy, abusive, disobedient, unforgiving, self-obsessed, satan worshipping, unbelieving Christians" running around out there? You're like Jobs friends and God did not look too kindly on them.

Rescued By Mary · Dec 4, 2012

lesjude said:
1 Corinthians 11:29-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[a] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[b] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
If a believer does not discern that Christ provided both forgiveness for sin and physical healing in His physical body by His death on the cross they cannot receive by grace through faith the aspect of what he did in His body they do not discern, usually physical healing.

..

1 Corinthians 11:29-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[a] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[b] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
If a believer does not discern that Christ provided both forgiveness for sin and physical healing in His physical body by His death on the cross they cannot receive by grace through faith the aspect of what he did in His body they do not discern, usually physical healing.

lesjude,
Holy Communion received unworthly has nothing to do with a lack of faith in the healing merits of the Atonment, man.

"If a believer does not discern that Christ provided both forgiveness for sin and physical healing in His physical body by His death on the cross they cannot receive by grace through faith the aspect of what he did in His body they do not discern, usually physical healing."

This interpretatin of yours of the preceding verses is really imposing your own view on the text, sir. Saint Paul was not concerned with scolding the Corinthian chuch for their lack of faith in Divine healing with his grave warning about profaining the Lord's Supper. People were dead because they were receiving communion in gross imorality. Surley you can see this? Back away for a moment from all the faith healing for just a sec. Lesjude...

This is a Catholic thing. For a Catholic to knowingly approach the Alter with mortal sin in their heart without confessing it a sacralige beyond comprehension. The protestants often accuse me of worshiping Mary because what they see me doing for my Mary is little more if any at all to the worship they give God. But is that my fault??? As a Catholic, the Eucharist Sacrifice is worship reserved for God alone. This is sometning that protestants don't have and cannot give. PIty.

Not discerning the Lord's Body is not failing to figure out that the Atonmnet includes physical healing so those poor soul die after they eat the crackers and grape juice, Lesjude. It is much more seroius than that.

The verses are teaching a direct causal relationship between reception of communion and the death of the communicant. Not a secondary result of a decline in health because of a failure to avail oneself of the benefits of a proper understanding of health benefits of Christ's sufferings.

Do you ever read any of the Saints, Lesjude?

RbM

Rach1370 · Dec 4, 2012

Lesjude...you say I have 'cursed' you? Really. As the Gyspy did, let's review what you've claimed about all Christians who are sick in your OP?

That we're: demon possessed, disobedient sinners being punished, ignorant of Christ's purpose for coming and within our lives, lazy and faith abusive, self abusive, unforgiving, sickness loving, deceiving, and manipulating others, involved in the occult, un-trusting of Christ and capable of halting the Spirits work and God's will in our lives...unless we intone or 'use' verses properly.

What utterly disgusting things to say to other Christians...especially when they may be struggling with sickness. If you have indeed suffered those things you mentioned, I imagine you can perhaps place yourself in the same spot. What would you have felt if, when you child was still born, someone told you it was your fault? Or are you even then incapable of experiencing the pain that would cause? You say your child was raised from the dead? Well, that is indeed a miracle of God and he is to be praised for that unendingly! But to say that miracle happened because of your superior faith, while your brother down the hall mourns that his child did not start breathing, is horrifying. Because there are many, many Christians out there who do not experience miracles like that in their lives, but have tremendous trust, faith and hope is Jesus.

Let me make an example closer to home. I have a chronic illness and have struggled with it about 17 years. For you to say those things above about me, when you know nothing of me, makes me incapable of believing you a humble messenger of God's goodness. I also don't believe what you say, because I am aware of God in my life. I read the bible, I know what it says. God does not promise me that my life will be easy...he doesn't even promise me healing, although he does heal many. What he does promise me is salvation, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and that he will be with me forever.
He tells me to pray for my needs, and so I do. Do you believe I have never prayed for healing? Of course I have...I have even had my elders pray over me. But when we pray to God for these things we must do so even knowing that God's will WILL be done. Of course it will, we know this as everything is guided by his hand, in his time and for his glory. So when we pray for these things we want, we do so with the understanding that his will is going to be done. And that if healing does not come, it's because it wasn't his will for me at that time.
What then? Do you suggest that I go back to the drawing board and assess my obvious faults? God didn't heal me because my faith is faulty? That I'm involved with the occult, am using my sickness to manipulate my family? Do you suggest that I 'go to work' trying to be better so that next time I pray God will grant me my request regardless of his plan or timing? We know from scripture that 'trying harder' and 'working to fix ourselves' is flatly against the gospel of grace. So where does that leave me in your great understanding of things? It leaves me praying for something God won't give me until I fix myself up, only to fix myself up I rely on myself which God disproves of, which is a sin, which means my faith is lacking. Do you see how it goes around and around and leaves genuine Jesus loving, God praising and trusting Christians with no where to go? It simply doesn't make biblical sense.

So yes...my life is a testimony that you are wrong. I do not love my illness, would love for it to be taken from me...but it is not from my lack of faith. If anything, my faith has grown as a result of my illness...teaching me to rely on Jesus for everything! He has walked me lovingly through the years, and while I struggle physically, my extended family tells me I've been a blessing to them spiritually. Christ is growing me and using me through these struggles, and while I pray that he will still do so after I become well, I recognise his sovereignty and wisdom in it all. Should he ask me to continue in my illness until the day I die, I will not question him...his love for me or my love for him...and I certainly won't let someone else who believes they've been especially blessed because of their superior Christian-ness make me feel like my relationship with the only thing I truly value and fully trust in, in this life is retarded.

epostle1 · Dec 4, 2012

Rescued By Mary said:
Hey lesjude,

Read your writings, man.

Look, don't take Rach to presonal, really. It's not that way.

Can I just tell you something though - There is redemptive value in suffering.

Much has been written by the Saints in this subject. Our sufferings are joined with Christ's in some mystical way.

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:" Colossians 1:24

I have the greatest respect for the sufferings that you and your family have been through - It is for you salvation, lesjude. And that of the whole world.

We become one with Christ when we enter into His sufferings with Him. Our pain is joined with His for our salvation...

A lack of faith does not result in sickness by necessity. Receiving the Body and Blood of Christ unworthly does however - It may bring death and does...

RbM

There are some Protestant communities that teach redemptive value in suffering, but not many.

Matt. 10:38 - Jesus said, "he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." Jesus defines discipleship as one's willingness to suffer with Him. Being a disciple of Jesus not only means having faith in Him, but offering our sufferings to the Father as He did.

Matt. 16:24; Mark 8:34 - Jesus said, "if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Jesus wants us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. When we suffer, we can choose to seek consolation in God and become closer to Jesus.

Luke 9:23 - Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Luke 14:27 - Jesus said, "whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple." If we reject God because we suffer, we fail to apply the graces that Jesus won for us by His suffering.

Col. 1:24 - Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body. This proves the Catholic position regarding the efficacy of suffering. Is there something lacking in Christ's sufferings? Of course not. But because Jesus loves us so much, He allows us to participate in His redemptive suffering by leaving room in His mystical body for our own suffering. Our suffering, united with our Lord's suffering, furthers the work of His redemption.

Phil. 1:29 - for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God's plan. Thus, Christ does not want our faith alone, but our faith in action which includes faith in suffering.

God is with you, Rach.

New King James Version (NKJV)
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[a] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[b] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
If a believer does not discern that Christ provided both forgiveness for sin and physical healing in His physical body by His death on the cross they cannot receive by grace through faith the aspect of what he did in His body they do not discern, usually physical healing.

lesjude,
Holy Communion received unworthly has nothing to do with a lack of faith in the healing merits of the Atonment, man.

"If a believer does not discern that Christ provided both forgiveness for sin and physical healing in His physical body by His death on the cross they cannot receive by grace through faith the aspect of what he did in His body they do not discern, usually physical healing."

This interpretatin of yours of the preceding verses is really imposing your own view on the text, sir. Saint Paul was not concerned with scolding the Corinthian chuch for their lack of faith in Divine healing with his grave warning about profaining the Lord's Supper. People were dead because they were receiving communion in gross imorality. Surley you can see this? Back away for a moment from all the faith healing for just a sec. Lesjude...

This is a Catholic thing. For a Catholic to knowingly approach the Alter with mortal sin in their heart without confessing it a sacralige beyond comprehension. The protestants often accuse me of worshiping Mary because what they see me doing for my Mary is little more if any at all to the worship they give God. But is that my fault??? As a Catholic, the Eucharist Sacrifice is worship reserved for God alone. This is sometning that protestants don't have and cannot give. PIty.

Not discerning the Lord's Body is not failing to figure out that the Atonmnet includes physical healing so those poor soul die after they eat the crackers and grape juice, Lesjude. It is much more seroius than that.

The verses are teaching a direct causal relationship between reception of communion and the death of the communicant. Not a secondary result of a decline in health because of a failure to avail oneself of the benefits of a proper understanding of health benefits of Christ's sufferings.

Do you ever read any of the Saints, Lesjude?

RbM

1 Cor. 11:27-29 - in these verses, Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord. If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.

1 Cor. 11:30 - this verse alludes to the consequences of receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in mortal sin results in actual physical consequences to our bodies.

source

7angels · Dec 5, 2012

this is an awesome subject. i really enjoy talking about healing. i also am one that walks in divine healing. i have prayed for others to see them set free from their sicknesses and diseases. there are many reasons why healing is hindered. i have to give credit where credit is due and that is to see the devil deceive so many people to believe that divine healing is not ours but God's only. scripture teaches that i am in blood covenant with God which means what is God's is also mine and vice versa.

rach
i am sorry to hear about your condition but let me tell you that according to scripture you do not have to remain with your illness. i have recently found the truth out about healing and how it works. i know that i know that healing is for today. God does not make us sick or give us illnesses. if that were true then Jesus would be in rebellion to the Father because he went about healing all that were oppressed, sick, and ect. granted that God will still use us even if we are sick or ill or whatever. as long as we are willing to listen and obey God then we will be used by God. just from your posts i know that i know you are a stout christian. but i also know that just from your posts that you will never have divine healing until you come to the realization that healing is yours now and that it is God's will for us to be in divine healing but we need to grab hold of God's promises for healing. now i could be wrong about you but as the word teaches that out of the mouth the heart speaks.

everything i say here i believe but it is not easy to achieve unless you open yourselves up and allow God to speak the truth to you.

lesjude
what you say about healing being for today is true but i disagree with your conclusions. it is getting late here so if you wish to discuss your beliefs then great. who knows maybe you think faster than you write and that is why some of your points are wrong.

God bless

Rach1370 · Dec 5, 2012

7angels said:
rach
i am sorry to hear about your condition but let me tell you that according to scripture you do not have to remain with your illness. i have recently found the truth out about healing and how it works. i know that i know that healing is for today. God does not make us sick or give us illnesses. if that were true then Jesus would be in rebellion to the Father because he went about healing all that were oppressed, sick, and ect. granted that God will still use us even if we are sick or ill or whatever. as long as we are willing to listen and obey God then we will be used by God. just from your posts i know that i know you are a stout christian. but i also know that just from your posts that you will never have divine healing until you come to the realization that healing is yours now and that it is God's will for us to be in divine healing but we need to grab hold of God's promises for healing. now i could be wrong about you but as the word teaches that out of the mouth the heart speaks.

everything i say here i believe but it is not easy to achieve unless you open yourselves up and allow God to speak the truth to you.

Hi 7Angels...I think that you perhaps misunderstand me in some matters...I'll try and flesh out some of my thoughts on this...

I too know that healing is for today. Of course I know that God can and does heal people today...what I am saying is that he does not heal everyone...for reasons that only he knows. And I trust those reasons completely, even if I don't know them.

I do not believe that God makes us sick...not at all. Sickness and every bad thing came into the world when the human race fell. Every person is therefore subject to these things...not through the will of God, but through sin. What I do believe is that God can, and often does, use any bad thing for our gain and his glory. I don't believe it's for us to question what we are lacking when we struggle in this life...we should be asking what we can do for God in it...does he want us to grow, or to help others...be a witness to his grace. So I don't see my illness as a punishment because my faith is lacking...I see it as something to use for God's glory until such time he takes it from me. So many people in the 'health' scene can't see this....they say either I see my illness itself as a blessing...and therefore should not ask for it to be taken from me...or that my faith is faulty and it's therefore a punishment for that lacking faith. They refuse to see it anyway else. They can't seem to see that praising God and trusting him through and in such circumstances can bring more glory to God...and that's the most important thing ever...more important than my desire to be well. So what I truly long for, is that...his glory and his will be done. I might pray that those things would be found in my healing and I might trust completely that one day, in his timing it will be...but in the meantime, if I wake up tomorrow and find myself still ill...I can still praise him and not worry that my faith is lacking and he is withholding healing until I 'shape up'. I can know this, because that's not the gospel. The gospel is the good news of what God does for us, not what we can do for him. If I know it's not on me at all, and that my very faith is another gift from him...how then can I say that the faith he gifts me with, is lacking and faulty? How can I say I must do something more, or better? I can't. It's all him and all the glory is his....and so I live...and I love...and I praise...and I trust.....and in that, I am perfectly content.

Also...it's not that I won't have healing because I'm not realizing God's promises. I know God can and will heal me...I believe it...I could wake up tomorrow and be well...or I may only be healed when I open my eyes to the next life and see Jesus face to face. I pray for healing with the full understanding and belief that God does heal....but I also know that his will is done and that should I wake tomorrow and am not healed, then that is his plan. Knowing my God is in control and has a plan for me is not me having a faith crisis, and it's not me refusing to take hold of God's promises. I see all of his promises right now in Christ Jesus. He has saved me...rescued me, remade me and continues with me every day. I know where my life is heading...it's heading home to heaven and to him. If he chooses to heal this body now, or next week, or in ten years...then I praise him and use my health to work for the gospel. And if he doesn't, then I must surmise that despite my prayers that he has a reason for my life as it is...and so I will continue as I am...helping those who struggle to see God's love and hand in hardship...because it is there...and it's wonderful...God has produced some amazing things through hardship and I'm not about to second guess the Almighty.

lesjude · Dec 5, 2012

THE Gypsy said:
Cursed you? Puhleese.

Besides...what exactly do you expect when your opening post basically said there were a bunch of "demon possessed, sinful, ignorant, irresponsible, lazy, abusive, disobedient, unforgiving, self-obsessed, satan worshipping, unbelieving Christians" running around out there? You're like Jobs friends and God did not look too kindly on them.

More accusations from one who cannot give scripture or bother to study out to see that what I have said is stated in the Bible. You seem to forget that Job was healed. I have NOT said the only reason people do not receive healing is sin. I clearly said it could be a trial of faith: Sickness can simply be a trial to defeat the devil, glorify God, and refine the believer's faithfulness and character (see James 1:2-4, 1 Peter 1:6-7) which is why there is often a period of time between asking and receiving by faith and the manifestation of the healing (Mark 11:24).
This is just what happened with Job's trial. Here is what the NT says:

James 5:11
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.
Job was healed and restored!

Christians can be ill and stay ill from ignorance of the healing Jesus provided in the atonement.
Is this not ignorance?

Everyone gets the measure of faith from God but it is the believers responsibility to grow and exercise that faith (Romans 10:17 and Jude 20). If that responsibility is not met healing can be elusive. God can allow it to send that message of our responsibility if all else fails.
Is this not laziness?

They can stay ill because they do not know what Bible faith is Hebrews 11, or how to put it to work James 2:18-26, Mark 11:24, 1 John 5:14-15 to receive healing. No one gets ANYTHING from God unless they exercise Bible faith praying according to His revealed will not "if it be thy will".
Is this not ignorance?

There is a culture or climate of unbelief that is in the churches which hinders those who want to trust Jesus for healing by faith from doing so and hinders the work of healing miracles by the Holy Spirit.
Is not this being demonstrated on this forum by you and others?

7angels said:
this is an awesome subject. i really enjoy talking about healing. i also am one that walks in divine healing. i have prayed for others to see them set free from their sicknesses and diseases. there are many reasons why healing is hindered. i have to give credit where credit is due and that is to see the devil deceive so many people to believe that divine healing is not ours but God's only. scripture teaches that i am in blood covenant with God which means what is God's is also mine and vice versa.

rach
i am sorry to hear about your condition but let me tell you that according to scripture you do not have to remain with your illness. i have recently found the truth out about healing and how it works. i know that i know that healing is for today. God does not make us sick or give us illnesses. if that were true then Jesus would be in rebellion to the Father because he went about healing all that were oppressed, sick, and ect. granted that God will still use us even if we are sick or ill or whatever. as long as we are willing to listen and obey God then we will be used by God. just from your posts i know that i know you are a stout christian. but i also know that just from your posts that you will never have divine healing until you come to the realization that healing is yours now and that it is God's will for us to be in divine healing but we need to grab hold of God's promises for healing. now i could be wrong about you but as the word teaches that out of the mouth the heart speaks.

everything i say here i believe but it is not easy to achieve unless you open yourselves up and allow God to speak the truth to you.

lesjude
what you say about healing being for today is true but i disagree with your conclusions. it is getting late here so if you wish to discuss your beliefs then great. who knows maybe you think faster than you write and that is why some of your points are wrong.

God bless

Please tell me where you see my points are wrong.

Rach said:
Hi 7Angels...I think that you perhaps misunderstand me in some matters...I'll try and flesh out some of my thoughts on this...

I too know that healing is for today. Of course I know that God can and does heal people today...what I am saying is that he does not heal everyone...for reasons that only he knows. And I trust those reasons completely, even if I don't know them.

Click to expand...

Please give chapter and verse where Jesus did not heal EVERYONE who came to Him. Also chapter and verse that Jesus has changed.

I do not believe that God makes us sick...not at all. Sickness and every bad thing came into the world when the human race fell. Every person is therefore subject to these things...not through the will of God, but through sin. What I do believe is that God can, and often does, use any bad thing for our gain and his glory. I don't believe it's for us to question what we are lacking when we struggle in this life...we should be asking what we can do for God in it...does he want us to grow, or to help others...be a witness to his grace. So I don't see my illness as a punishment because my faith is lacking...I see it as something to use for God's glory until such time he takes it from me

Please give chapter and verse for your "I think".
.

So many people in the 'health' scene can't see this....they say either I see my illness itself as a blessing...and therefore should not ask for it to be taken from me...or that my faith is faulty and it's therefore a punishment for that lacking faith. They refuse to see it anyway else. They can't seem to see that praising God and trusting him through and in such circumstances can bring more glory to God...and that's the most important thing ever...more important than my desire to be well. So what I truly long for, is that...his glory and his will be done. I might pray that those things would be found in my healing and I might trust completely that one day, in his timing it will be...but in the meantime, if I wake up tomorrow and find myself still ill...I can still praise him and not worry that my faith is lacking and he is withholding healing until I 'shape up'. I can know this, because that's not the gospel. The gospel is the good news of what God does for us, not what we can do for him. If I know it's not on me at all, and that my very faith is another gift from him...how then can I say that the faith he gifts me with, is lacking and faulty? How can I say I must do something more, or better? I can't. It's all him and all the glory is his....and so I live...and I love...and I praise...and I trust.....and in that, I am perfectly content.

Again please give chapter and verse for your assertions that sickness is a blessing from God, staying sick gives Good glory, please give scripture that the good news that Jesus preached and demonstrated did not include healing/deliverance, please give scripture that a Christian does not have an obligation to use faith for all that is promised in sozo to save. Please give scripture for what is lacking if it is not faith for what God clearly promises. Does God lie or have you missed something?

Also...it's not that I won't have healing because I'm not realizing God's promises. I know God can and will heal me...I believe it...I could wake up tomorrow and be well...or I may only be healed when I open my eyes to the next life and see Jesus face to face. I pray for healing with the full understanding and belief that God does heal....but I also know that his will is done and that should I wake tomorrow and am not healed, then that is his plan. Knowing my God is in control and has a plan for me is not me having a faith crisis, and it's not me refusing to take hold of God's promises. I see all of his promises right now in Christ Jesus. He has saved me...rescued me, remade me and continues with me every day. I know where my life is heading...it's heading home to heaven and to him. If he chooses to heal this body now, or next week, or in ten years...then I praise him and use my health to work for the gospel. And if he doesn't, then I must surmise that despite my prayers that he has a reason for my life as it is...and so I will continue as I am...helping those who struggle to see God's love and hand in hardship...because it is there...and it's wonderful...God has produced some amazing things through hardship and I'm not about to second guess the Almighty.

Please give scripture that praying "your will be done" on what God has already clearly said in His word is His will is Bible faith. This is not faith but religious fatalism. The devil will only be to glad to give you the words of you mouth Proverbs 18:21. Please give scripture for God not telling His children the reason He allows anything. However he is under no obligation to tell us anything that is clear in His word i.e. His will on healing.

THE Gypsy · Dec 5, 2012

lesjude said:
More accusations from one who cannot give scripture or bother to study out to see that what I have said is stated in the Bible. You seem to forget that Job was healed.

I made no "accusations" just statements of fact. And I did not "forget" anything. Since you either have a reading comprehension problem OR are so obsessed with YOUR wisdom, I will explain what I DID say...

I did not say anything about Jobs healing or about Job for that matter...what I DID say was ...You are like Jobs FRIENDS...which is true. Your arrogant, judgemental, self righteous attitude is not only vile, but as has already been pointed out...based in ignorance.

lesjude said:
Please give scripture that praying "your will be done" on what God has already clearly said in His word is His will is Bible faith. This is not faith but religious fatalism. The devil will only be to glad to give you the words of you mouth Proverbs 18:21. Please give scripture for God not telling His children the reason He allows anything. However he is under no obligation to tell us anything that is clear in His word i.e. His will on healing.
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How about Jesus, himself? Is that a good enough example?

Saying, Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done. Luke 22:42

God had "clearly said" that it was his will for Jesus to go through the things that were about to come upon him. God knew it and Jesus knew it and yet Jesus still did not want to go through it and asked as much. He ended it with "nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done".

We are not clairvoyant. God knows things that lie in front of us and sometimes he does not REMOVE the obstacle but strengthens us THROUGH it, as he did with Jesus, remember? Verse 43...And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

lesjude · Dec 5, 2012

Rach said:
Lesjude...you say I have 'cursed' you? Really. As the Gyspy did, let's review what you've claimed about all Christians who are sick in your OP?

Click to expand...

What do you call it when you say our faith will fail?

That we're: demon possessed, disobedient sinners being punished, ignorant of Christ's purpose for coming and within our lives, lazy and faith abusive, self abusive, unforgiving, sickness loving, deceiving, and manipulating others, involved in the occult, un-trusting of Christ and capable of halting the Spirits work and God's will in our lives...unless we intone or 'use' verses properly.

What utterly disgusting things to say to other Christians...especially when they may be struggling with sickness. If you have indeed suffered those things you mentioned, I imagine you can perhaps place yourself in the same spot. What would you have felt if, when you child was still born, someone told you it was your fault? Or are you even then incapable of experiencing the pain that would cause? You say your child was raised from the dead? Well, that is indeed a miracle of God and he is to be praised for that unendingly! But to say that miracle happened because of your superior faith, while your brother down the hall mourns that his child did not start breathing, is horrifying. Because there are many, many Christians out there who do not experience miracles like that in their lives, but have tremendous trust, faith and hope is Jesus.

Every reason I have given for a failure to receive healing is in scripture. You have not bothered to study it out. The reason I gave the OP was I know people are failing to receive and want them to seek God as to why because the failure is NOT from God's side and no one can give scripture that it is.
No, it was not my "superior faith" because I have never experienced such fear in all my life and I NEVER said it was. Again you bring a charge with no basis. Who does that? However by His grace through faith I did what the Bible says to do and cried out to Him instead of calling 911. The Bible says fear not. It is not that the spirit of fear will not get all over you, but if you resist it has to back off. Also I did what it says in Hebrews 4:14-16. I ALWAYS it because I ask and wait until Jesus comes with it. It seems most do not.

Let me make an example closer to home. I have a chronic illness and have struggled with it about 17 years. For you to say those things above about me, when you know nothing of me, makes me incapable of believing you a humble messenger of God's goodness. I also don't believe what you say, because I am aware of God in my life. I read the bible, I know what it says. God does not promise me that my life will be easy...he doesn't even promise me healing, although he does heal many. What he does promise me is salvation, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and that he will be with me forever.

Please give chapter and verse for your assertion about healing.
I gave the OP so people would seek God to see why they are missing it because God is not!

He tells me to pray for my needs, and so I do. Do you believe I have never prayed for healing? Of course I have...I have even had my elders pray over me. But when we pray to God for these things we must do so even knowing that God's will WILL be done. Of course it will, we know this as everything is guided by his hand, in his time and for his glory. So when we pray for these things we want, we do so with the understanding that his will is going to be done. And that if healing does not come, it's because it wasn't his will for me at that time.

If you prayed 10 times about a clear promise of God you prayed 9 times in unbelief. See 1 John 5:14-15 and Mark 11:24. You obviously do not know His clear will so until you do....

What then? Do you suggest that I go back to the drawing board and assess my obvious faults? God didn't heal me because my faith is faulty? That I'm involved with the occult, am using my sickness to manipulate my family? Do you suggest that I 'go to work' trying to be better so that next time I pray God will grant me my request regardless of his plan or timing? We know from scripture that 'trying harder' and 'working to fix ourselves' is flatly against the gospel of grace. So where does that leave me in your great understanding of things? It leaves me praying for something God won't give me until I fix myself up, only to fix myself up I rely on myself which God disproves of, which is a sin, which means my faith is lacking. Do you see how it goes around and around and leaves genuine Jesus loving, God praising and trusting Christians with no where to go? It simply doesn't make biblical sense.

All I suggest is to go before God with an open heart and ask, setting aside all your preconceived ideas about God will on healing.

So yes...my life is a testimony that you are wrong. I do not love my illness, would love for it to be taken from me...but it is not from my lack of faith. If anything, my faith has grown as a result of my illness...teaching me to rely on Jesus for everything! He has walked me lovingly through the years, and while I struggle physically, my extended family tells me I've been a blessing to them spiritually. Christ is growing me and using me through these struggles, and while I pray that he will still do so after I become well, I recognise his sovereignty and wisdom in it all. Should he ask me to continue in my illness until the day I die, I will not question him...his love for me or my love for him...and I certainly won't let someone else who believes they've been especially blessed because of their superior Christian-ness make me feel like my relationship with the only thing I truly value and fully trust in, in this life is retarded.

Your statements are a testimony of not knowing God's will based on the doctrines of men at best, and at worst calling Good a liar from that ignorance. You sound "spiritual" but give glory to what the devil is doing to you.

Why Christians Fail to Receive Physical Healing

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