How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?

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bling

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Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:

Matt. 18: 21 Peter came to Jesus. He asked, “Lord, how many times should I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times.

23 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to collect all the money his servants owed him. 24 As the king began to do it, a man who owed him millions of dollars was brought to him. 25 The man was not able to pay. So his master gave an order. The man, his wife, his children, and all he owned had to be sold to pay back what he owed. 26 “The servant fell on his knees in front of him. ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ 27 “His master felt sorry for him. He forgave him what he owed and let him go. 28 “But then that servant went out and found one of the other servants who owed him a few dollars. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he said. 29 “The other servant fell on his knees. ‘Give me time,’ he begged him. ‘I’ll pay you back.’ 30 “But the first servant refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison. The man would be held there until he could pay back what he owed. 31 The other servants saw what had happened. It troubled them greatly. They went and told their master everything that had happened. 32 “Then the master called the first servant in. ‘You evil servant,’ he said. ‘I forgave all that you owed me because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed. 35 “This is how my Father in heaven will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

That completes the answer to that question perfectly, so what is the parable about?

Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:

1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

4. The wicked servant is representing a sinner?

5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?

If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?
 

williemac

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Bling: My impression is that you may have missed the point of the parable. The subject is mercy and thankfulness.. The person was shown mercy but refused to show the same kind of mercy to others. This indicates that he did not have thankfulness for what he had recieved. A person who had been grateful for the mercy shown him would have had at least some measure of compassion on those who were caught in the same circumstance as he had been. Furthermore, since he owed more than what was owed to him, the forgiveness of that debt he owed left him further ahead already.
The point is about how the heart of an individual responds to the goodness of God. In the case of the gospel, the application would be about how one appreciates what was done for him at Calvary. It should change a person. It is intended to have an effect on one's heart. We love Him because He first loved us.
All these points and questions you are showing and asking have little or no relevancy to the parable's intention....in my humble opinion.
My advice would be to not overthink it.
 

bling

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Do you have a problem with the first 8 questions be part of the parable?
Does this parable not also tell us what happens if we do not Love much after being forgiven much or have we just not been forgiven?

williemac said:
Bling: My impression is that you may have missed the point of the parable. The subject is mercy and thankfulness.. The person was shown mercy but refused to show the same kind of mercy to others. This indicates that he did not have thankfulness for what he had recieved. A person who had been grateful for the mercy shown him would have had at least some measure of compassion on those who were caught in the same circumstance as he had been. Furthermore, since he owed more than what was owed to him, the forgiveness of that debt he owed left him further ahead already.
The point is about how the heart of an individual responds to the goodness of God. In the case of the gospel, the application would be about how one appreciates what was done for him at Calvary. It should change a person. It is intended to have an effect on one's heart. We love Him because He first loved us.
All these points and questions you are showing and asking have little or no relevancy to the parable's intention....in my humble opinion.
My advice would be to not overthink it.
 

SilenceInMotion

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How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?
That is sort of the contradiction of justification by faith alone. God cannot justify a person in sin, or else He would be justifying evil. From the Catholic perspective, a person cannot be justified until they have repented and fused theirselves to the flesh of Christ. In order to do that, one has to be in sync with the New Covenant and be kosher.
 

williemac

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SilenceInMotion said:
That is sort of the contradiction of justification by faith alone. God cannot justify a person in sin, or else He would be justifying evil. From the Catholic perspective, a person cannot be justified until they have repented and fused theirselves to the flesh of Christ. In order to do that, one has to be in sync with the New Covenant and be kosher.
In re reading over the parable, I have to disagree. I have suggested in other threads that we consider the time frame in which Jesus taught. He came to them while they were still in what is called the old covenant; the covenant of law. We are taught in scripture that the law's purpose was/is to teach us that we cannot be justified by it due to our inability to produce righteousness. Jesus, though He practiced grace, used the law to condemn the people. He told them exactly how hard it is to enter the kingdom by their own strength. Pretty much impossible. What He said was true at the time. But if anything He said seems to contradict what Paul taught, it should be a sign that something changed in the meantime. What changed is that Jesus stood in our place and accomplished all those things on our behalf that we cannot do to the satisfaction of the law.
In other words, Jesus solved the problem of our unrighteousness and our sin. He paid the price. In Rom.5:18 we read that it is by the righteous act of ONE MAN (Jesus), that the FREE gift of life and righteousness came to mankind. This is the same chapter that starts out with the conclusion that we are justified by faith. It is a conclusion that is made from the principles laid out in the previous chapters.
Furthermore, we can find evidence that the covenant changed the rules, by what Paul told both the Ephesians(4:32) and the Colossians (3:13), namely that we ought to forgive just as we have been forgiven. The order has changed. Mankind is no longer under the burden of having to forgive in order to be forgiven. God took the matter into His own hands.

Our mandate from God is to swallow our pride and recieve the gift of life as it is offered; a free gift (by grace). It cannot be earned. And for your information, there is no trick to it, no technicality, no hoops to jump. It is simply a matter of taking God at His word and humbly allowing life to come to us as a matter of His grace rather than by our own resources. This is what faith really is about. And this is how we partake of the Lord's body and blood. It is by faith. Communion is meant as a reminder of what Jesus did for us. It is not an excercise that is meant to be a requirement for life. If that was the case, it would have been taught as such, with no apparent contradictions in scripture. Humility is the requirement. Faith is the method. Period.
 

biggandyy

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Bing, you are waaaaaaaay overthinking the parable.

Simply, Jesus pre-cross is setting the groudwork for a teaching his disciples will learn post-cross on their own.

He is preparing them for the ultimate form of forgiveness, Himself.

By telling this parable Jesus is teaching them that, essentially, those who are forgiven much should forgive much. The disciples did not realize that Jesus would sacrifice Himself in the ultimate form of forgiveness a little while later on the cross.

He taught them to forgive others in the proportion they have received forgiveness. At the cross they received forgiveness of infinite magnitude, therefore there is nothing anyone else can possibly do to them to warrant an unforgiving spirit on their part.

Jesus prepared their hearts by His words for a lesson He would later teach them with His blood. The mentions in the parable of the money, the debt, the prison, the master, the servant, all were merely backdrop to the larger message; forgiveness.
 

bling

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williemac said:
In re reading over the parable, I have to disagree. I have suggested in other threads that we consider the time frame in which Jesus taught. He came to them while they were still in what is called the old covenant; the covenant of law. We are taught in scripture that the law's purpose was/is to teach us that we cannot be justified by it due to our inability to produce righteousness. Jesus, though He practiced grace, used the law to condemn the people. He told them exactly how hard it is to enter the kingdom by their own strength. Pretty much impossible. What He said was true at the time. But if anything He said seems to contradict what Paul taught, it should be a sign that something changed in the meantime. What changed is that Jesus stood in our place and accomplished all those things on our behalf that we cannot do to the satisfaction of the law.
In other words, Jesus solved the problem of our unrighteousness and our sin. He paid the price. In Rom.5:18 we read that it is by the righteous act of ONE MAN (Jesus), that the FREE gift of life and righteousness came to mankind. This is the same chapter that starts out with the conclusion that we are justified by faith. It is a conclusion that is made from the principles laid out in the previous chapters.
Furthermore, we can find evidence that the covenant changed the rules, by what Paul told both the Ephesians(4:32) and the Colossians (3:13), namely that we ought to forgive just as we have been forgiven. The order has changed. Mankind is no longer under the burden of having to forgive in order to be forgiven. God took the matter into His own hands.

Our mandate from God is to swallow our pride and recieve the gift of life as it is offered; a free gift (by grace). It cannot be earned. And for your information, there is no trick to it, no technicality, no hoops to jump. It is simply a matter of taking God at His word and humbly allowing life to come to us as a matter of His grace rather than by our own resources. This is what faith really is about. And this is how we partake of the Lord's body and blood. It is by faith. Communion is meant as a reminder of what Jesus did for us. It is not an excercise that is meant to be a requirement for life. If that was the case, it would have been taught as such, with no apparent contradictions in scripture. Humility is the requirement. Faith is the method. Period.
Could you answer my questions. God forgave people even under the Old Law and it was never a 'reward" for what they did.

biggandyy said:
You said: “…those who are forgiven much should forgive much.” But that is not what Jesus taught in Luke 7. Jesus taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” It is totally automatic, but forgiveness has to take place. God forgiving man does not mean man is forgiven, because man can refuse to accept that forgiveness as pure charity.
Bing, you are waaaaaaaay overthinking the parable.

Simply, Jesus pre-cross is setting the groudwork for a teaching his disciples will learn post-cross on their own.

He is preparing them for the ultimate form of forgiveness, Himself.

By telling this parable Jesus is teaching them that, essentially, those who are forgiven much should forgive much. The disciples did not realize that Jesus would sacrifice Himself in the ultimate form of forgiveness a little while later on the cross.

He taught them to forgive others in the proportion they have received forgiveness. At the cross they received forgiveness of infinite magnitude, therefore there is nothing anyone else can possibly do to them to warrant an unforgiving spirit on their part.

Jesus prepared their hearts by His words for a lesson He would later teach them with His blood. The mentions in the parable of the money, the debt, the prison, the master, the servant, all were merely backdrop to the larger message; forgiveness.
You said: “…those who are forgiven much should forgive much.” But that is not what Jesus taught in Luke 7. Jesus taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” It is totally automatic, but forgiveness has to take place. God forgiving man does not mean man is forgiven, because man can refuse to accept that forgiveness as pure charity.


Right no one else can do anything, but God does not override man’s free will to refuse to accept His forgiveness as this free charitable gift and from the parable we do not hear the servant asking for charitable forgiveness or even accepting the forgiveness.

We have examples of Christ interpreting parables and how we should do just that and the main characters and verbs are not back drops. This is the way it is ion the Kingdom.
 

biggandyy

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I reject the Arminian view of justification and opt for the Double Predestination teaching of scripture. Man can not reject the forgiveness of God because we are DEAD in our sin.
 

williemac

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biggandyy said:
I reject the Arminian view of justification and opt for the Double Predestination teaching of scripture. Man can not reject the forgiveness of God because we are DEAD in our sin.
You can do as you please. However, predestination is based on God's foreknowledge. Otherwise, please tell me how, if our response is not part of the equation, did God choose who would be saved and who would not? Was it a flip of a coin? Was it a random choice? Did He show favoritsm based on hair color? How is it that we got so lucky and the poor stiff across the street did not find His favor? What was the basis of His predestination, in your understanding? And just what do you mean by double?
Furthermore, being dead in sin is an expression. It is a figure of speech. In my lifetime, I was rejected by several ladies before I found my wife. How is it that they were alive enough to reject me? How is it that my wife was alive enough to accept my proposal and take the vow? It is simply the same part of our brain (namely, our soul, where within the heart resides) that makes these decisions, that God is pleading with. I use that word (pleading) because it is used in scripture, in 2Cor.5:20, where we find God pleading to the lost through His children, to respond to His reconciliation. That passage reveals in no uncertain terms that our relationship with God is no different than our human relationships, in that it is a mutual choice. The model we have with man and woman is similar, with one party being the initiator and the other the responder. This is also confirmed in Jesus' own words in Rev.3:20,21.

Therefore, what you refer to as the American viewpoint, is rather a scriptural fact. Make no mistake, we do not wrestle against flesh and blood. Our warfare is not with other men, but rather with the spiritual forces of darkness. It is to their advantage that humans go about blaming each other for false ideas and false conclusions, and errant doctrines.
We are justified by faith. Paul was not an American. What he meant is that we are justified by God as a free gift which we accept as such. This is by way of faith, the belief and acceptance of the good news. Faith comes by hearing. So just what are you hearing?
 

bling

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biggandyy said:
I reject the Arminian view of justification and opt for the Double Predestination teaching of scripture. Man can not reject the forgiveness of God because we are DEAD in our sin.
Are you rejecting the parable?

Would you explain the parable to fit your believe?

Do you feel Christ said something in the parable that contradicts scripture?

The 8 questions I asked are simple to answer, so is it just the follow up question that gives you a problem?
 

biggandyy

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I answered all 8 of your questions in one statement, "You are waaaaaaay over thinking the parable..." All 8 of those questions have nothing to do with what the parable was actually about.
 

bling

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biggandyy said:
I answered all 8 of your questions in one statement, "You are waaaaaaay over thinking the parable..." All 8 of those questions have nothing to do with what the parable was actually about.
Jesus gives us examples of how he interpretes a parable, how am I being different?
 

biggandyy

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Your first sentence is at odds with the words of the Lord. Jesus uses the occasion of a question about forgiveness to give a teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven (verse 23). He is not giving us instruction on how to receive forgiveness at all, its about how we give forgiveness to others. That goes to your concluding question of the OP... there is no "transaction" going on, God does not bargain with sin or sinners.
 

bling

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biggandyy said:
Your first sentence is at odds with the words of the Lord. Jesus uses the occasion of a question about forgiveness to give a teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven (verse 23). He is not giving us instruction on how to receive forgiveness at all, its about how we give forgiveness to others. That goes to your concluding question of the OP... there is no "transaction" going on, God does not bargain with sin or sinners.
Which “first sentence” are you referring to and how is it at odds?

I agree it is about how we give forgiveness to others (unconditionally/undeservingly), but it also tell us that not all we (or God) forgive will be forgiven. Since God (and in the parable the Master) does everything perfectly, we are only left with the wicked servant not doing something for forgiveness to take place?