False Teachers claim the Gog and Magog war is close

A careful read of Ezek 38 & 39 shows that it occurs at the beginning of the Millenium, whereas Rev 20:7-9 occurs at the end. Two separate events.

I don't agree with everything 4u says, however I do agree that EZ. 38 is at the end of the millennium. I don't know why folks would consider anything else. I also believe Ez. 39 depicts the time after Armageddon, at the beginning of the millennium.

I don't agree with everything 4u says, however I do agree that EZ. 38 is at the end of the millennium. I don't know why folks would consider anything else. I also believe Ez. 39 depicts the time after Armageddon, at the beginning of the millennium.

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Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Where do these heathen come from? If this is at the end of the Millenium, there are no heathen who do not know God...

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

All flesh shall come and worship God and know Him as their God. This is not the case at the beginning of the Millenium. The heathen (gentile) nations will come to know God, some will the hard way...

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

It will definitely be a learning process.

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:

I don't agree with everything 4u says, however I do agree that EZ. 38 is at the end of the millennium. I don't know why folks would consider anything else. I also believe Ez. 39 depicts the time after Armageddon, at the beginning of the millennium.

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Well, that's silly! So, what you are saying is that Ezekiel 38 comes 1000 years AFTER Ezekiel 39? You do realize that until the 1200s there were NO chapter divisions, right? Both "chapters" are just part of the whole text of Yizkiyahu's prophecy. If you believe that Ezekiel 39 will come after Har-Meggidown at the beginning or the Millennium, then shouldn't Ezekiel 38 as well?

Now Retro, as smart as you are, you should know better than that. The prophets go back and forth in time all the time. This is called telescoping prophecy where the prophets see the mountain tops of events but not the valley of time between them, nor do they see which events come first and which last, except for John. It could be a short term to a long term and back to a short term all within the same chapter. If we were to use your logic than one would assume that everything from Isaiah 1 - 52 happened before the fulfillment of Is. 53. Now you don't believe that, do you?

John, on Ez. 38:16, I don't believe there is a soul on earth today (of age) that is unaware of who God is. They may deny Him like Atheists, they may reject Him like Orthodox Jews, they may call Him other names but there is nothing in this verse that signifies a "special" relationship. One has to consider that when satan is loosed, it's not likely to be a short term event and those same categories of non-believers will come back in full swing. I would say that except for technological advances, when satan is loosed, things will much likely be very similar to the way things are today, socially and religiously speaking.

Shalom, John_8:32.

John_8:32 said:

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Where do these heathen come from? If this is at the end of the Millenium, there are no heathen who do not know God...

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

All flesh shall come and worship God and know Him as their God. This is not the case at the beginning of the Millenium. The heathen (gentile) nations will come to know God, some will the hard way...

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

It will definitely be a learning process.

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Well, another text that has to do with the Millennium as the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign is Matthew 13 (even though it is usually mistaken as having to do with our current time period):

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: "aioonos" = "age").
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

Matthew 13:47-50
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Compare Matthew 13:41-43 with 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

This parallels Revelation 20:1-21:3:

Revelation 20:1-21:3
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (Greek: "psuchas" = "breathing beings") of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

Verse 4 implies a resurrection because the ones who were beheaded were definitely dead, but Yochanan said he saw their "breathing beings" "living and reigning with the Messiah a thousand years." "This is the first resurrection" in verse 5 refers back to verse 4. The first part of verse 5 is just mentioned here to show there is a difference between this resurrection and the last resurrection later mentioned in verses 12 and 13.

So, during the Millennium - during the Kingdom of the Messiah - there will be PLANTS within His Kingdom who don't truly belong. However, Yeshua` doesn't remove them so that He doesn't uproot the children of the Kingdom, as well! He lets both grow together until the time of harvest. Then, just before He hands over His Kingdom to the Father, there will be the "time of harvest" when the children of the wicked one are gathered together in bundles to burn in the Lake of Fire and Sulphur! The children of the Kingdom will be moved into His Father's Kingdom, the "Barn."

Remember: one of the things that is said about Yeshua` in prophecy is this:

Isaiah 42:1-7
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

Matthew 12:14-21
14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
KJV
Therefore, He will allow things to play out naturally and not force the issue: He won't break off a bruised reed; He'll let it die off naturally. He won't quench a smoking wick; He'll let it burn out naturally with a gentle plume of smoke until it totally runs out of fuel. Part of the problem may be in the understanding of the word "worship." Most feel that this means they are willingly worshipping Yeshua` as God. That's NOT the case. The word translated "worship" is proskuneoo (NT:4352):

NT:4352 proskuneoo (pros-koo-neh'-o); from NT:4314 and a probable derivative of NT:2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):
KJV - worship.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

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Thus, it only means to prostrate oneself in homage, whether one does so willingly or is forced to do so! So, when the Scriptures say, "all nations shall come and worship before thee" (Revelation 15:4), it may not be a thing they do so willingly! So, also, when you read these verses,

Isaiah 45:20-25
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
KJV

Romans 14:10-12
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
KJV

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV

know that these, too, may be fulfilled unwillingly by the unjustified that survive as much as willingly by the justified.


Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:

Now Retro, as smart as you are, you should know better than that. The prophets go back and forth in time all the time. This is called telescoping prophecy where the prophets see the mountain tops of events but not the valley of time between them, nor do they see which events come first and which last, except for John. It could be a short term to a long term and back to a short term all within the same chapter. If we were to use your logic than one would assume that everything from Isaiah 1 - 52 happened before the fulfillment of Is. 53. Now you don't believe that, do you?

John, on Ez. 38:16, I don't believe there is a soul on earth today (of age) that is unaware of who God is. They may deny Him like Atheists, they may reject Him like Orthodox Jews, they may call Him other names but there is nothing in this verse that signifies a "special" relationship. One has to consider that when satan is loosed, it's not likely to be a short term event and those same categories of non-believers will come back in full swing. I would say that except for technological advances, when satan is loosed, things will much likely be very similar to the way things are today, socially and religiously speaking.

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Sure, I understand that, but I think that the real problem is not in understanding these as separated by a thousand years but rather in the mention of Gog and Magog at the end of Revelation 20 but not in Revelation 19. What I believe Yochanan (John) to be saying is, "They're back!" They were submissive for the 1000 years because they were FORCED to be submissive, but the minute they received their freedom and encountered haSatan, they became the same "Gog and Magog" of their predecessors who were destroyed at the Battle of Har-Megiddown, who apparently they revered!

I just don't see any reason for separating chapters 38 and 39. However, I DO see them both being fulfilled when the Master Yeshua` the Messiah returns and fights for Isra'el. I believe that God's "Great Supper" for the birds and beasts of the field ties the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39 to Revelation 19.

Hi Rocky, The whole millennium and after can also be within the scope of "the latter days".

Hi Retro, I agree with your great supper similarity which is why I believe it's post Armageddon, however, Cp. 38 has nothing in it that can be specifically stated as occurring-pre-mill. You theory of "they're back" is as valid as I believe the way I see it is. Time will tell, but I do believe that not just this but a few other prophecies that we normally believe are post trib/pre-mill aren't at all and deal with the time of Rev. 20:8-9, Zech. 14 being the most known.

Why would anyone feel so self-assured - afaithfulone4u - that one could boldly and publicly call anyone who believes the War of Gog and Magog is imminent a "False Teacher?" False Teachers were historically heretical teachers who tried to mislead the faithful, usually for financial gain. Consequently, it is a bold statement to call Christians who - however sincere - may have a different interpretation than you "False Teachers" as if they are heretics with improper motives...Words are powerful, consequently, one should choose them carefully, especially in a public forum like this one...

To claim that Ezekiel 39 is after the millenium reign and that Ezekiel 38 is pre-tribulation - or whatever - is quite confusing while violating every rule of hermeneutics. As a previous post stated, when Ezekiel penned his book "chapters and verses were not yet invented." So one can feel safe if he looked at chapters 37 (the dry bones), 38 and 39 (Gog and MaGog), 40, 41, 42 (the 3rd Temple) and 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 and 48 (the Glory of the Lord Returns to the Temple and the Millennium Reign) as one long chronological prophecy because that was obviously - and logically - Ezekiel's intent. And doing so not only would not violate any rule of hermeneutics but, in fact, would be supported by the rules of hermeneutics...The Holy Spirit knew of and used the universal rules of hermeneutics so that we would all interpret Scripture using the same rules of interpretation - thus ensuring that we all came to the same, basic, understanding. When one grossly violates the rules of hermeneutics, either with Scripture or any other historical text, he or she quickly becomes lost and, as a result, can claim any wild interpretation they chose.

Looking, then, at the way Ezekiel intended the prophecy to be read and understood we see that the War of Gog and MaGog come before the rebuilding of the third Jewish Temple and prior to the Millenium Reign of Christ...So any crazy interpretation of Ezekiel's intent being to "jump" around by thousands of years in his prophecy quickly become foolishness.

The end time paradigm put forth in Scripture has three eschatological time periods which are concerned with three specific groups of people and which overlap in real time. Daniel's 70th week is concerned only with the Hebrew people in and around Jerusalem. The Great Tribulation Period is only concerned with the Church. The Day of the Lord's Wrath is only concerned with non-believing people and nations after the rapture event.

If, then, we are currently in "The Time of the Gentiles," a time that immediately precedes Daniel's 70th week, we await, according to Ezekiel 37, the rebirth of the nation of Israel (fulfilled May 14, 1948). With the rebirth of modern Israel Daniel tells us that a fourth empire will then attempt to annihilate the Jewish state. Ezekiel identifies this coalition army in chapters 38 and 39. With the destruction of their army, the coalition force - Daniel's 4th beast or empire - will revive under the leadership of a False Prophet and the Antichrist. The Antichrist will allow Israel to rebuild the 3rd Temple (Eze 40, 41) then, once completed, defile it with the "abomination that causes desolation" act. This single act will begin the Great Tribulation Period. Three and one-half years later, our Lord will keep His promise to His Church and will "cut short" the Great Tribulation Period through a "pre-wrath rapture" of His bride. This act will begin the 3rd and final eschatological time period - The Day of the Lord's Wrath.

We see, then, that Ezekiel's War of Gog and MaGog is critical to end time prophecy because it is this war that, ultimately, will bring the False Prophet and the Antichrist to power as the seventh and eighth kings (Rev 17:10) of Daniel's fourth beast/empire.

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist/Rise of the Beast

Sorry Richard, Your words: "As a previous post stated, when Ezekiel penned his book "chapters and verses were not yet invented." So one can feel safe if he looked at chapters 37 (the dry bones), 38 and 39 (Gog and MaGog), 40, 41, 42 (the 3rd Temple) and 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 and 48 (the Glory of the Lord Returns to the Temple and the Millennium Reign) as one long chronological prophecy because that was obviously - and logically - Ezekiel's intent."

But this view has been proven wrong over and over. The only prophet that would come close to one long chronological prophecy would be John in Christ's Revelation. Ez. 40+ is not purposely about a third temple and EZ. 38 is certainly not critical to any pre-mill theory. This view is about as opposite to the reality of OT prophets as you can get.

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:

...

Hi Retro, I agree with your great supper similarity which is why I believe it's post Armageddon, however, Cp. 38 has nothing in it that can be specifically stated as occurring-pre-mill. You theory of "they're back" is as valid as I believe the way I see it is. Time will tell, but I do believe that not just this but a few other prophecies that we normally believe are post trib/pre-mill aren't at all and deal with the time of Rev. 20:8-9, Zech. 14 being the most known.

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That's an interesting theory, but it's going to be VERY difficult to prove. Zechariah 14, for instance, has identifying milestones which definitely place it before the Millennium. Consider the following highlighted portions:

Zechariah 14:1-21
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

These points would be hard to place at the end of the Millennium or at the beginning of the New Earth. For instance, there are logistical problems with what you are claiming. Do you know how large the New Jerusalem is said to be? If you do, then you would be able to see why the "living waters shall go out from Jerusalem, half of them toward the former sea (the Dead Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Mediterranean Sea)," could not possibly apply to the New Jerusalem! If ancient Isra'el had maps, east, not north, would be on the top of the map, for east was their primary direction. Thus, the former sea - the sea ahead of them - would be a term for the Dead Sea. Likewise, the hinder sea - the sea behind them - would be the Mediterranean. However, the New Jerusalem is so huge that if it were centered at the coordinates for Old Jerusalem, the Dead Sea would be completely covered, and half of the Mediterranean would also lie under the city!

Now, I know that there are similarities, such as the "living waters," between this scenario in Z'kharyahu's prophecy and that recorded by Yochanan in Revelation 22:1-5, but Yochanan's description FAR outshines Z'kharyahu's! There's just no true comparison! If anything, Z'kharyahu's description is a mere smaller model of the city to come.

Oh, and one more thing: Do you really think that Yeshua` the Messiah would allow verse 2 to happen to Jerusalem on HIS watch?! NO! He comes to RESCUE Jerusalem from the mistreatment!

I find almost as many opinions as people in this topic.

I have an observation verse 5 of Zech 14

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee

That may help some narrow the frame

Shalom, Rex.

Rex said:

I find almost as many opinions as people in this topic.

I have an observation verse 5 of Zech 14

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee

That may help some narrow the frame

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Thank you for your diligence! I can't believe I missed that! :blink:

Amen to the some
The wise at heart


I thank you as well for pointing out my over sight
The tree as well


For what my opinion may be worth I just read Eze 38 threw 40 what I see is what is always common 38 is the over all big picture, then as the verses proceed we move closer and see the details.

38-4 I shall put a hook in your jaw and draw you in

38-10 non that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind

38-11 you shall say. I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go up against a peaceful people who dwell safely ....having nether bars nor gates.

Thats a pretty hard thing to find in this world, but that resounding answer from modern prophets will be "peace peace and then sudden destruction"
So we need to look at 1 thes 5 as well.

Hi Guys, I didn't miss it and I believe I have an alternative answer. I'll probably post an article on Zech. 14 tomorrow. I'll look forward to your input.

Trekson said:

Sorry Richard, Your words: "As a previous post stated, when Ezekiel penned his book "chapters and verses were not yet invented." So one can feel safe if he looked at chapters 37 (the dry bones), 38 and 39 (Gog and MaGog), 40, 41, 42 (the 3rd Temple) and 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 and 48 (the Glory of the Lord Returns to the Temple and the Millennium Reign) as one long chronological prophecy because that was obviously - and logically - Ezekiel's intent."

But this view has been proven wrong over and over. The only prophet that would come close to one long chronological prophecy would be John in Christ's Revelation. Ez. 40+ is not purposely about a third temple and EZ. 38 is certainly not critical to any pre-mill theory. This view is about as opposite to the reality of OT prophets as you can get.

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Who has "proven" that Ezekiel did not intend his long prophecy to be viewed as one long chronological prophecy? And how could one "prove" such a thing short of talking to Ezekiel himself?...I know there are - and have been - many who think they have the right to speak for Ezekiel, but usually, as with the Tubegin(?) school in Germany in the 18th and 19th centuries, who have been almost totally discredited by archeology, etc, few really, given enough time, prove to know more than the average Christian using logic...So I am always leery of men who claim Ezekiel - or whom ever - didn't intend to say what clear logic and basic rules of hermeneutics says he intended to say...

It doesn't have to be proven, it's just the way it is with ALL OT prophets. If you can show that all of Ezekial is chronological, it will add weight to your position. If you can't, then you can't just pick and choose which parts you want to believe are, just to back up your position.I'm not saying none of them are chronological, just if a viable alternative theory presents itself than it shouldn't be rejected based solely on whether a person believes they are chronological or not.

Trekson said:

It doesn't have to be proven, it's just the way it is with ALL OT prophets. If you can show that all of Ezekial is chronological, it will add weight to your position. If you can't, then you can't just pick and choose which parts you want to believe are, just to back up your position.I'm not saying none of them are chronological, just if a viable alternative theory presents itself than it shouldn't be rejected based solely on whether a person believes they are chronological or not.

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Trekson: You were the one who claimed it had been "proven." Moreover, I never claimed that "all" of Ezekiel is chronological from chapter 1 to chapter 48. Everyone understands that the OT prophets could bounce around in time throughout their books - they could even do so in a single chapter and/or verse. At the same time there are chapter after chapter devoted to one subject as well...With the above being said, I personally do not find Ezekiel hard to read. The early part of his book is written against the rebellious Israel of his day; the middle portions of his book seem to be written against the various contemporaneous nations of his day and how they interacted with Israel, and chapter 37 on picks up with the modern state of Israel which, according to Ezekiel, would be "reborn in a single day." If, then, Ezekiel chapter 37 picks up with the eschatological rebirth of the nation of Israel, an event which took place in 1948, then it is - and logical - to see chapters 38 and 39 - the infamous War of Gog and MaGog - as the next step in Ezekiel's chronology of eschatological events. Moreover, when you take Ezekiel's 10 kings and place them with Daniel's 4th empire and John's "ten kings" then, for me, it becomes obvious that all three men are speaking about the same eschatological entity?...After the war of gog and magog Ezekiel immediately turns his attention to the third Jewish Temple - chapters 40, 41 and 42. There needs to be a third Jewish Temple for the Antichrist to perform the "abomination that cause desolation act" spoken of by our Lord and Daniel. It becomes obvious to me, then, that Ezekiel's Temple is, indeed, the same Temple the Antichrist will desecrate. Thus, chapters 40, 41 and 42 are in chronological order since they immediately follow the War of Gog and Magog which immediately follows the rebirth of the modern state of Israel. Ezekiel's next chapter, chapter 43, sees the glory of the Lord returning to the Temple. I see this being chronological as well. It is left to other prophets to fill in the gap from the rebuilding of Ezekiel's third Temple and the time the glory of the Lord returns to that same Temple, i.e., Daniel's 70th Week, the Great Tribulation Period and the Day of the Lord's Wrath...But when taken as a whole - these prophet's visions fit in quite nicely with Ezekiel's vision...My whole point being that I see no logical reason to believe that, in these few chapters, Ezekiel found it necessary to jump around by literary thousands of years as you propose...Remember Occman's Razor - which states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected...I see too many assumptions - even guesses - in your interpretation over mine...

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist

afaithfulone4u said:

To know God does not mean to know there is a God. Many believe there is a God but do not know of His Word to walk in His ways.







I do appoligize if my title upset you and I should have not said they are false teachers for no one has all understanding perfected, not me, nor you. That is why God made the body of Christ of many members(body parts) so we can feed upon one another as we share the Bread of life that we each receive so that we can grow as ONE.

As for the third temple, We are the temple that is being built that Christ comes for, being his body the living stones, the one built not by man's hands but God. And in case you haven't noticed, there are anti-Christ's standing in the temple now. There are many false ministers who speak smooth things allowing the sheep to mingly on the paths with the ungodly being unfaithful the Christ and those who claim to be Christian's but don't like the Word of God because it messes with their lifestyles. These are what you call Anti-Christ or Against- The Word.. of Truth.

Mark 14:58
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
KJV
1 Peter 2:4-5
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
KJV
1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

As for the Great Tribulation being cut short we must rightly divide the Word... that is only for the Elect of God that it will be cut short, not the Great Tribulation it's self, for they will be birthed in the image of Christ and caught up to God's throne just before the last 3-1/2 yrs of GT.
Matt 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV
Mark 13:20
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV


Also want to add that there are always confirming scriptures such as at least 2-3 other witnesses to a prophecy. We can see clearly that the Gog and Magog in Rev 20 is after the 1,000 yrs... so where is the confirming scriptures to this? Do you know of any?
Also these verses say that the Day of the Lord is not just one day of ours, but a day of the Lords is as 1,000 of ours as in milinium
where Christ cleanses the earth along with those ruling and reigning with him with the ROD of IRON(Law of God)
2 Peter 3:4-10
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

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Apologies aren't really necessary my friend - just remember that words have power, so chose them wisely and carefully...I understand - and agree with you when you write "We are the temple that is being built that Christ comes for, being his body the living stones, the one built not by man's hands but God." But, if I may say so, you make the same mistake that so many other Christians do when they are attempting to interpret Scripture, and that is you view the world - and thus eschatology - through the eyes of a Christian. In other words, you are right in that I doubt there is a single Christian in the world that sees or feels the need for a third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But the Jews are not Christians, nor do they see the world and eschatology through Christian eyes. For them - they need a third Temple. Muslims see no need for a Temple either - but then they don't see the world and eschatology through Christian eyes either...The Jews demand a third Temple - and they will get it. The muslim wants to deny the Jew his Temple. These two groups of people, then, with their strange non-christian world views and eschatological hopes and anticipations will force Armageddon on to the world...It isn't the Christian world that will cause Daniel's 70th Week or the Great Tribulation Period. These eschatological time periods are forced onto the world - and the Christians - by two heretical groups of people, the Jews and the muslims. That is the whole point of end time prophecy - It is forced on the Christian, not caused by the Christian...So you must learn to read and interpret end time prophecy, not so much through Christian eyes, but through the eyes of rabbinic Judaism and radical Islam. This means you must do what very few Christian theologians have ever done - study Islam and Rabbinic Judaism as I have. Once you understand those two heresies, their origins and histories, then it becomes much easier to understand what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell the Church with all His many eschatological prophecies...I hope that makes sense...

Richard Neal